Your views on Christianity?

[chopinlover01]

Hopefully I don't offend anyone. If you tend to take offense to this, click away!
My view is summarized in one question: "Where is the evidence?"
We take the view of "some things don't have answers, therefore a supernatural being did it", and arguments like "you just have to believe", when you wouldn't take such arguments for really anything else.
Your thoughts?

[fftransform]

Four-word views are probably trite with respect to a subject on which hundreds of thousands of pages of philosophy has been being written over the past 2500 years.  What epistemic standard are you looking for?  Because the only worthwhile ones aren't going to be on a piano forum: Is this unclear, or were you aware?  If the latter, what is your reason for posting this?

[chopinlover01]

My view is not just those four words. I sarcastically said that it could be summarized that way.
I realize yes, the people who spend their life thinking about this don't go on piano forums most times. I wanted to see what the members of this forum thought

[j_menz]

a subject on which hundreds of thousands of pages of philosophy has been being written over the past 2500 years.  

The subset of pages of philosophy written about Christianity in the c. 500 years prior to Christ's birth seem to have largely escaped my attention. Biblical prophecy aside, do you have references?

[iansinclair]

chopinlover1 -- my evidence is pretty simple: Christianity works.  I will not go so far as to say it is the only possible way of life or faith which works; I am open to persuasion on that.  But I will say that it does.  I have seen that too often, with too many people in too many different situations to have any doubt about it at all.

And yes, I can -- and have -- discussed and debated and analysed a good chunk of the writings of various men and women over the last two millenia (like j_menz, I somehow seem to have missed the 500 years before Christ, unless one wants to get into the Old Testament prophets in detail), and that can be helpful (sometimes) and very interesting (also sometimes -- it can also be a crashing bore).  But the bottom line is: it works.

[chopinlover01]

How about the lines condoning rape, and beating your slaves, because you "own them"?

[Bob]

https://www.ipst.gatech.edu/amp/collection/museum_invention_paper.htm
"AD 105 is often cited as the year in which papermaking was invented."


Stone tablets, yes.


I'd say there's good and bad.  And there's probably spirituality vs. organized religion, different things, maybe the same, maybe different.  Probably anything I'm thinking has been written down in those thousands of years.  

[iansinclair]

How about the lines condoning rape, and beating your slaves, because you "own them"?

Citations would help.  However, I would caution against selective reading -- of which you, frankly, appear to be guilty.  It has been said many times, and with considerable justice, that one can "prove" any point of view one cares to take by careful selection from the Bible and other Christian readings; the same applies, of course, to most if not all other religious texts (e.g. the Qu'ran). 

Many evils have been done in the name of Christianity, and in the name of any other faith (including atheism) you care to name; all that that shows is that the practitioners are human.

[chopinlover01]

Citations would help.  However, I would caution against selective reading -- of which you, frankly, appear to be guilty. 

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
 
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
 
    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.  But there were not enough women for all of them.  The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel.  So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead?  There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever.  But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
 
    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Also, what evils have been done in the name of atheism?

[j_menz]

Also, what evils have been done in the name of atheism?

Stalin, Mao, a succession of Kims........

[iansinclair]

Good -- thank you.  But may I point out that Judges is a part of the Old Testament, and written a considerable time prior to Christianity?  May I also point out that no one -- including themselves -- has suggested that the actions of the Israelites (and they were a bloodthirsty group, like the other tribes in that area and that time period) were in accordance with the teachings of Christ?

You have proved my point about selective reading and being able to "prove" anything one wants by doing so from the Bible quite nicely, by the way.

I seem to recall that comrade Stalin was an atheist... or, if one wishes to consider current affairs, there is an atheist group in the US state of Wisconsin which is persecuting Christians quite happily; of course, depending on one's point of view, persecuting Christians for their beliefs may not be evil.

[diomedes]

Something tells me this will be the most grandiose thread this forum has yet to see.

[chopinlover01]

But Stalin did not fight in the name of Atheism, did he? And which atheist group is that? There are quite a few of them, and very few "persecute" Christians.
Shall we name off the horrific things have that been done in the name of Christianity?
Ancient Pagans:
As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
Crusades:
irst Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]



And here are some other general religious wars:

15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

[chopinlover01]

Also, this page is worth a read: https://atheism.about.com/od/isatheismdangerous/a/AtheismKilled.htm

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Oh god...

It doesn't matter what bad things that have been done in the name of Christianity.  It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's true.  Besides people don't do bad things in the name of the Christian God, they use it as an excuse.  DIFFERENCE.  Well some people do, but not a lot.  They're just crazy.  Anyways you get my point. 

I'm an atheist but the arguments that some of these people make against religion are so stupid.

[j_menz]

But Stalin did not fight in the name of Atheism, did he? And which atheist group is that?

He acted in the name of Communism/Socialism/Marxist-Leninism - of which atheism is a part.

Perhaps you might consider that people have done some pretty terrible things, and have used whatever ideology they could to justify it.  In most (not all) cases, the ideology in fact doesn't require or justify the actions. The ideologies have been vastly different, with the only common link being the tendency of some people to pervert it to their own ends. That they do so across many ideologies, and across all known human history, suggests that it is a human trait, rather than a reflection of any ideology and neither proves nor disproves the legitimacy or usefulness of any one of them.

[chopinlover01]

I was arguing against the point of "Christianity works". It doesn't really correlate to the point of whether God exists; however, the thought of saying that Christianity does good is now sadly often a lie (in the US at least). The religion is controlling what our laws are (same sex marriage, abortion, all those laws currently in place derive from the bible), and spreading awareness that this is what the religion promotes encourages people into questioning the religion; something that hasn't been done, because they're brainwashed into this fear of"if you don't do what "God" wants, (and by that we mean the Catholic/whatever denominate Church wants) you're going to burn in Hell", which is NOT okay on any scale.

There simply is no visible evidence of God. And, if you actually read the Bible (something a lot of Christians seem to not have done), it describes God, the benevolent, loving being, committing mass genocide, creating the human race from two people, creating the world in 7 days 6000 years ago, and all the rest, most of which science has disproved.

@J_menz- a very good point. But what about the things that the Church does endorse, like telling young children, who don't have a choice about if they go to church or not, that if they don't do X Y and Z, that they're going to burn in hell?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I was arguing against the point of "Christianity works". It doesn't really correlate to the point of whether God exists; however, the thought of saying that Christianity does good is now sadly often a lie (in the US at least). The religion is controlling what our laws are (same sex marriage, abortion, all those laws currently in place derive from the bible), and spreading awareness that this is what the religion promotes encourages people into questioning the religion; something that hasn't been done, because they're brainwashed into this fear of"if you don't do what "God" wants, (and by that we mean the Catholic/whatever denominate Church wants) you're going to burn in Hell", which is NOT okay on any scale.

There simply is no visible evidence of God. And, if you actually read the Bible (something a lot of Christians seem to not have done), it describes God, the benevolent, loving being, committing mass genocide, creating the human race from two people, creating the world in 7 days 6000 years ago, and all the rest, most of which science has disproved.

@J_menz- a very good point. But what about the things that the Church does endorse, like telling young children, who don't have a choice about if they go to church or not, that if they don't do X Y and Z, that they're going to burn in hell?

The title of the thread is "your views on Christianity" then you say your view is "where is the evidence" or something like that.  Sounds like you were specifically talking about Christianity.

[j_menz]

@J_menz- a very good point. But what about the things that the Church does endorse, like telling young children, who don't have a choice about if they go to church or not, that if they don't do X Y and Z, that they're going to burn in hell?

The Church (and I question your capitalisation here) does not endorse any such thing, though some (what many would regard as eccentric/heretical) churches do. Hardly a mainstream view.

You may also be interested to know that science has established, using mitochondrial DNA, that all humans are in fact descended from a single female. The same technique is not able to say anything about paternity. That said, the idea that Genesis should be read literally (vs mythologically or metaphorically)has always been a minority view.

[chopinlover01]

I'll be happy to respond to you all more in depth in the morning.
However, what is your source for the mitochondrial DNA study?
Yes, the capitalization is technically valid since (according to my English teacher), if you are referring to a religious group, it is a proper noun.
I've heard the Genesis as a metaphor figure, yes. I've also heard that none of the bible is to be taken literally. However, if the entire Bible (or even just parts of it) is a metaphor, why are we allowing it to be taught in schools as literature? (based off supreme court rulings that I'll find in a minute, probably post tomorrow)

[j_menz]

Cann, Stoneking, and Wilson Nature 1987. Thou you may like to google "mitochondrial eve" or look here or here for further information, including contrary views.

The Church, capitalised, means a single institution (eg, The Catholic Church), not a disparate collection of separate organisations.

That the Bible can be regarded as of literary importance says nothing about how it may be regarded as fact or sacred text. Many people read Norse Sagas or the Arthurian legends and regard them as great works of literature without believing in Wodin or Merlin. Whilst I am not naďve about the reasons the matter came before the USSC, I would be surprised if its decision did not reflect the aforesaid.

[outin]

I'm getting quite tired of it actually...

[iansinclair]

I'm getting quite tired of it actually...

So am I -- the OP asked a straightforward question, and I provided a straightforward answer.  It would appear that the OP is opposed to -- or frightened of -- Christianity, and I have found over many years that there is no point in discussion in that case.

[chopinlover01]

So am I -- the OP asked a straightforward question, and I provided a straightforward answer.  It would appear that the OP is opposed to -- or frightened of -- Christianity, and I have found over many years that there is no point in discussion in that case.

Not at all frightened; If I were going to be smitten by God, he would have done it already.
I am opposed to the lines that condemn homosexuality and the like.
That said, I'm also only 14 and have a lot to learn on the subject.

[iansinclair]

Not at all frightened; If I were going to be smitten by God, he would have done it already.
I am opposed to the lines that condemn homosexuality and the like.
That said, I'm also only 14 and have a lot to learn on the subject.

14?  Well, you have time.  The only things I would ask of you, and I ask this quite sincerely, are to read as much as you can -- do not pick and choose! -- and keep an open mind.  Do not judge Christianity -- or any other religion or government or political party or any group, for that matter, by this sound bite or that tweet.  Look at the whole picture -- and yourself.

[thalbergmad]

Hardly a mainstream view.

Perhaps not, but worryingly present. I have heard it mentioned in several Alpha courses.

Hopefully in your neck of the woods, the tambo bangers are a little more moderate.

Thal

[outin]

So am I ...

Really? You could have fooled me

[timothy42b]

14?  Well, you have time.  The only things I would ask of you, and I ask this quite sincerely, are to read as much as you can -- do not pick and choose! -- and keep an open mind. 

Sometimes you need to go to primary sources.   When I was in grad school one of my professors read what Freud wrote, NOT what others said he wrote.

When you read about evolution, it does little good to go to creationist sources.

And the same is true in reverse, though Christianity is so broad and diverse you can't get a full picture from any one source. 

My impression of Christianity:  best music in Episcopal services, worst in Catholic, mainstream Protestant in the middle, as long as you avoid those awful praise and worship bands. 

[ahinton]

Perhaps not, but worringly present. I have heard it mentioned in several Alpha courses.

Hopefully in your neck of the woods, the tambo bangers are a little more moderate.

I still find this reference to the tambourine offensive to the extent that it might by implication be perceived by some to posit the notion that writing anything for it suggests something inherently pseudo-"religious"; I would not want to have to abandon all thought of that instrument purely on the basis of this reason (if indeed "reason" it is)...

Best,

Alistair

[8_octaves]

How about the lines condoning rape, and beating your slaves, because you "own them"?

Hi chopinlover,

I don't know much about that.. .

Referring to slaves, there were many cultures in history which condoned beating etc., and in ancient Rome they were sometimes treated as "tertrapod vertebrates", but also, maybe in other periods, as accomplished house-teachers.

Referring to Christians, the writings (letters) of Pliny The Younger are interesting, in my opnion, in which he , e.g., writes down his descriptions (and askings for advice) on how to treat them to imperator Traian.

Here a snippet of general info, maybe it evokes interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

My personal belief (I'm roman-catholic, but only on paper   ) : I believe in a power, which encircles everything, the midi-chlorians which are in us to surround every thing that exists, the plants, the animals, the wood, the table...the stones, and even between the swamp and the ship, LUUUUKE!  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE

___________

But, as we know, "Christians" weren't always nice and friendly, in history. Think of the witches'  trials, and, furthermore, the tremendously dangerous "Inquisition", and books like the "malleus maleficarum" by Institor (and his "companion").

But today are other times. In civilized countries, people are free to believe what they want. Which brings me to the following:

There is some kind of "proverb", in the first 2 lines of a poem by the great German writer Löns "Es gibt nichts Totes auf der Welt.." : I try to approximately translate, but I'm not so good in poems:

"There's no dead thing in the world.
E'rything has its mind:
As barren fossil-reef's: alive!
And arid earthen grind!

Thy eye shall open be to that,
and closed your mouth be, too:
If, then, you walk quietly, mute and still,
secrets are revealed to you!

The cries of raven and of owl
you'll comprehend, around,
and from each being's voice to you
a nice "Welcome" will sound!"

In that I would believe.  

Cordially, 8_octaves!  

[cuberdrift]

Something tells me this will be the most grandiose thread this forum has yet to see.

Hah. I can see that one coming. 

I must confess that I find it hard to comprehend the notion of the highly mystical, obscure notion of 'God'. After all, where is this God? Why can't we just explain everything as it seems to be - an eternal, cosmic 'accident', of which there is no real purpose or meaning?

In short, isn't reality just a game without rules? Aren't we the ones trying to guess its rules, and the ones trying to make-believe that there is a way to win or lose it?

On the other hand...

...I think it is important to realise that we are in a Piano forum, that we are all pianists (or musicians of some other sort), and that therefore, we are all artists.

As artists we should ask ourselves the same question. Is music not just a bunch of sound frequencies tied together? Why waste time burning calories on tiresome hours of practice? Why listen to the works of dead people when you can be spending those precious minutes finding a high-paying job to sustain yourself? Why even consider music for a career?!

In this light I think then the notion of God becomes clearer.

As artists, do we not understand the notion of a higher language? Music comes with this manner of thinking.

Religion is confusing. God is confusing. But to me, music isn't.

We can debate on the existence of God for ages...but come on.

Major triads are happy! Minor chords are sad! Diminished chords are scary! Mozart is fun! Beethoven is frightening! Prokofiev is painful! Chopin is melancholic! Debussy is sweet!

I think we should remember these things.To understand music and art is to understand God.

Hopefully I don't offend anyone. If you tend to take offense to this, click away!
My view is summarized in one question: "Where is the evidence?"
We take the view of "some things don't have answers, therefore a supernatural being did it", and arguments like "you just have to believe", when you wouldn't take such arguments for really anything else.
Your thoughts?

I am a practitioner - not an expert, just an amateur practitioner - of esoteric healing, which I had so fortunately encountered. On virtually all times I had performed it on individuals, their health has improved, and their illnesses lessened if not completely removed; most of these instances have been done without their notice (blinding), and have sometimes been done without the aid of medicine.

So, to answer your question for 'evidence', that is what I can offer. 

At least this shows us that there are things we can't see that exist.

[lostinidlewonder]

Christianity has a figure (Christ) who is discussed in ancient history more so than any other figure, that says a lot.
https://ideas.time.com/2013/12/10/whos-biggest-the-100-most-significant-figures-in-history/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
 Boiling this discussion down to belief in God or even the resurrection of Christ which is the single most important occurance without which Christianity is nothing, is silly. I thought you meant the religion itself, what parts of it makes it unique to other religions for all religions require faith and thus is not a unique attribute to discuss. Opinion on whether it is true or not is irrelevant and simply mves into argument/debate which goes nowhere.

[maestroanth]

Religion blows plain and simple. Buddhism is the only one worth a damn.

There are many unanswered things about origins of the universe and consciousness, and instead of taking some humility in saying, "I don't know yet", people had to put the cart before the horse and 'make up' some answers to the biggest, most haunting questions.  This in turned caused many people to believe in delusional fairy tales which is fine and dandy.... until they start hurting you by ignoring the reality. And there is hoards of history in almost every religion of people doing bad things like killing, coercing, and abusing people all in the name of 'god'. God can go to hell if he wants that stuff. ;p

In the end, empathy is a very human trait and critical for mammal survival (not just man). In other words, morality is in fact an innate DARWINIAN evolutionary trait which helped us conquer this planet, and if you need a *** bible to tell you the difference between right and wrong, you're seriously messed up.

My 2 cents on the subject anyway O.o!

[stoat_king]

In other words, morality is in fact an innate DARWINIAN evolutionary trait which helped us conquer this planet, and if you need a *** bible to tell you the difference between right and wrong, you're seriously messed up.

Its possible to argue that belief in God is an innate DARWINIAN evolutionary trait, but its a rather dry subject.
It tends to go down pretty badly, as does the argument that science is fundamentally faith-based lol

[timothy42b]

In the end, empathy is a very human trait and critical for mammal survival (not just man). In other words, morality is in fact an innate DARWINIAN evolutionary trait which helped us conquer this planet,

Do you think you're human?

And that you've conquered the planet?

Wrong on both counts.

You are a colony.  95% of the cells living in your body are nonhuman microbials.  You are just the substrate. 

[visitor]

Do you think you're human?

...ts.

You are a colony.  95% of the cells living in your body are nonhuman microbials.  You are just the substrate.  

well said. evolutionary microbiology approves. we are indeed more tiny critter than we are 'human'.

[maestroanth]

Do you think you're human?

And that you've conquered the planet?

Wrong on both counts.

You are a colony.  95% of the cells living in your body are nonhuman microbials.  You are just the substrate.  

Odd tangent to go to, lol.  There's a bunch of 'nonhuman' things in my body, such as air and water too, so what's your point? Do these microbials have the capacity to praise Jesus? ;P

[cuberdrift]

Interesting you mentioned the colony concept.

One idea I keep contemplating on is the "Organic" model of the universe...if you can call it that...in that the entire cosmos seems to be actually one living thing. I mean, if you can call a group of cells a "living" thing, why not a group of living things an ever larger "living thing", if you get my drift? 

[chopinlover01]

It's an interesting point of view. Because then, the entire body of all existing mass in one instant is the only thing there is, and there is no beyond.

[pianoplunker]

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
 
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
 
    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.  But there were not enough women for all of them.  The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel.  So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead?  There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever.  But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
 
    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Also, what evils have been done in the name of atheism?

Wow, sounds just like what ISIS is doing these days

[chopinlover01]

Well, ISIS is doing it in the name of Islam. But christian terrorism is still alive, though not as recently, and not as often: https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/24/surprise-another-christian-terrorist.html
The Qu'ran literally says, however, to "Kill the infedil" (non muslim). It's a bit different, because Christianity does it because they believe it goes against their religious beliefs (know about that bill in Indiana? Yup!) versus Muslims doing it because their holy book literally tells them to.

[thalbergmad]

What a better place this World would be without all these religious nutters.

Thal

[chopinlover01]

Well, to be fair, GOOD Christianity does exist. Places that go places and bring food, medical supplies, stay there for a number of years, etc. They do exist, but quite rarely.
Much less rare are the extremists, it seems. They also get much more media coverage; not surprising, since media (the US at least) seems to focus nearly solely on things that people fear and what gets them hyped up.

[chopinlover01]

Stalin, Mao, a succession of Kims........

Had to revive this point for a quick rant.
Stalin, Mao, they didn't do their evils in the name of their atheism. They did it in the name of a pseudo-religion, Communism (which J later concedes).
And while Stalin was an atheist, atheism was really just as much of his totalitarian regime as his mustache (which was just as horrendous as the things he did, I might add..).
While there were Christians persecuted in the USSR, the reason they were persecuted was because they opposed the way the country was being run. They were killed for the same reason those who opposed him for political reasons were- he was a totalitarian leader who killed off everyone who stood in his way (one of the reasons he was against Hitler).
Speaking of Hitler, who is usually grouped in these groups, you'd be interested to know that he was a roman catholic, and spoke of God multiple times in his biography, Mein Kampf. Most of Nazi Germany was also catholic (~90% if I recall correctly, but don't quote me on that, I'd have to look it up). In addition, Nazi soldiers had the phrase "Gott mit uns" embellished on their uniforms, which translates to "God with us".
So if you want to blame Atheism for the bad things of the rulers who also happened to be atheists, you should especially include people like Hitler who did what they did partially in the name of their religion.
That said, I was guilty of that very argument earlier in the thread, and that was intellectually dishonest. My own fault. I apologize.
Anyways, I'll stop raving now XD

[pencilart3]

Why did I click on this thread...

[chopinlover01]

Because it was a controversial topic connected with something that is a large part of your life.
It's like if there were a thread titled "Is piano a waste of my life?", it's the same reason.

[timothy42b]

Why did I click on this thread...

1.  Because in the history of PS this topic has generating long and enormously interesting threads with great battles and flame wars.  In short, it's potentially entertaining.  Despite the absence of Susan. 

2.  Because you yourself are deeply religious, certain that your own is 100% correct and all others are trash, and like to see this demonstrated occasionally. 

[adodd81802]

What a better place this World would be without all these religious nutters.

Thal

+1

[perfect_pitch]

What a better place this World would be without all these religious nutters.

Thal

+2

[pencilart3]

Please let me explain, then. I acted like a jerk before and I realize that. I wasn't totally honest, either. I said that I only wanted to learn but in reality I was trying to convince you of my beliefs. I'm sorry for doing that. But please also realize that the only reason I did it was because of my concern for all of you. If I am right, that means all of you are in bad shape, so I only wanted to help you. Please realize that, before you get angry! So yes first of all I'm sorry for being a jerk.

As you may have guessed, I have debated countless atheists on this subject. The one theme I have encountered with all of them is that they are angry. Really angry. I thought "Why do all Atheists get angry when all I'm trying to do is help them?". Well, I've found the answer. At the very heart of Biblical teaching is the fact that people are sinners. Without God, people fail, sin, and deserve hell. Essentially, Atheism teaches that people are all there is, so people are sufficient. Well, when a Christian comes in and says that people are sinners, I think it offends atheists, because of their teaching. So, they essentially shut off whatever a Christian says, and "Laugh their F' A' s off" at me, using that language presumably to make me mad, to "Get back at me" for insulting them in this way... calling them a sinner. Telling them that they have been wrong all along, that that if they died just now, that they would go to hell. So they basically shut off their brain, and it is my contention that even if I said something that essentially proved that Christianity was entirely true, they would not believe it, because of the pride thing. They are proud of humans and our accomplishments, therefore anything that insults humans, they just turn off.

You want to know why I am a Christian? What on earth it is that I might see, even if it's wrong, that you don't? The answer is (and this took about 50 debates with Atheists before I got to this conclusion) that the only way to truly experience Christianity is having a relationship with God. Christianity is not a set of rules, a way of life, or even a religion. It is simply having a relationship with God. It is not something you can just "Prove scientifically". You can't prove a relationship with God scientifically. I always used to wonder why Atheists just didn't get it! Well the answer is, there is really nothing to get when you only view Christianity as a religion. Yes, because of your relationship with God, there are things that you should do to please God, but Christianity is not going to church every Sunday and not using curse words. Those are results which come from knowing God.

The Bible, however, is something that CAN be proven scientifically. If anyone has ANYTHING against the Bible, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you. Just keep in mind, however, that we can only have that kind of discussion when you remember that 1) you are offended by what the Bible says, and 2) that Christianity is not a religion, rather it is simply having a relationship with God.

And if any Atheists on here want to have a match of Amino Acids forming even the most simple protein (assuming you have Amino Acids to begin with) I will be happy to go a few rounds on that as well. Sneak peak: 1 x 10^165

Oh, and one more thing....

What a better place this World would be without all these religious nutters.

Please remember, Thal, that the country you live in was founded by devout Christians. If it were not for Christians, you would probably be living in a communist country like China, which (now what Christianity is being rejected) is what we are heading for more and more every day.

+1

+2

- 1. That makes a total of

+1