Learning Chopin Etudes in my 2nd year was more beneficial than I thought

[yadeehoo]

Yes In my second piano year I started to tackle some of the Chopin etudes, and even tho it seemed ludicrous at first, it's starting to pay off big time! Op 10 no1 & 12 are now my two left and right hand warm up exercises.

I just wanted to share that with you guys

[handz]

Video or it didn´t happen 

[dogperson]

Here is the OP's link to Op 10 no 12  just a fragment

&feature=youtu.be

[yadeehoo]

Indeed, that was a couple month back.

I have to upload a new video to show the progress. Learned heaps of new stuff, cause I had to, especially arm movement. Those difficult pieces really face you with ultimate challenges, that's how you eventually learn something

Might take me a while before I can play the whole thing. But as I said, it's practice and it's good !

[yadeehoo]

By the way, I finished memorizing Op 10 no1 yesterday  So I can just practice both pieces endlessly without looking at the sheets now

[yadeehoo]

Now I have the gap between 2nd and 3rd finger, and between 4th and 5th. It might be because of Etude Op10 No1, cause I don't have it on the left hand

[dogperson]

You should post both videos of these etudes, complete, if you want help.  Your posts about your progress are confusing.

[yadeehoo]

I will uplaod new videos, maybe today.

The point i was trying to make is, instead of waiting to have the necessary technique to play these etudes, I took the opposite approach of gaining technique BY practicing these etudes. Even if it's still hard, my hands learned a lot from it.

[tenk]

I will uplaod new videos, maybe today.

The point i was trying to make is, instead of waiting to have the necessary technique to play these etudes, I took the opposite approach of gaining technique BY practicing these etudes. Even if it's still hard, my hands learned a lot from it.

This can be deceiving. I don't know if you have a teacher (I suspect not), but without one, you won't know/realize when you are making something needlessly more difficult for yourself, or worse potentially doing something that will hurt you.

For instance in your 10 2 video, you are doing some very strange and awkward movements with your wrist where it looks like you're turning it almost 45 degrees in. This will be impossible to do at concert tempo.

I haven't seen or heard you play 10 1, but even Chopin himself stated, "You shall benefit from this Etude. If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow. Unfortunately, instead of teaching, it frequently un-teaches everything."

None of this is to say that you shouldn't spend some time on these pieces, but trying to unlearn mistakes or errors in your playing will be astronomically more difficult the more you drill them in this way.

[visitor]

when you first start out pretty much anything will cause an 'improvement' doesn't mean it's wise or the best way to proceed.

[yadeehoo]

I don't believe in bad habits, just things you didn't learn yet. Making these wrist mistakes in the video, helped me understand what I was doing wrong, and since I've redefined the whole body approach. I would have never learned it if i was never faced to deep challenges.

I believe there's a virtue in making your own mistakes instead of getting a teacher telling you what to do from the start, blocking you the experience of learning from your own mistakes.

Btw, I don't know any bad habit anyone can take from learning Op10 No1 ? It stretches your fingers, that's what is does...

I have the gap now between my right fingers, which i didn't have before I practiced this piece.

-

I had a golf teacher teaching me the perfect swing before I could even shoot my first balls. It resulted in me over-thinking it and I just quit before I even knew what it was to shoot a ball.

[tenk]

I don't believe in bad habits, just things you didn't learn yet. Making these wrist mistakes in the video, helped me understand what I was doing wrong, and since I've redefined the whole body approach. I would have never learned it if i was never faced to deep challenges.

I believe there's a virtue in making your own mistakes instead of getting a teacher telling you what to do from the start, blocking you the experience of learning from your own mistakes.

Btw, I don't know any bad habit anyone can take from learning Op10 No1 ? It stretches your fingers, that's what is does...

I have the gap now between my right fingers, which i didn't have before I practiced this piece.

-

I had a golf teacher teaching me the perfect swing before I could even shoot my first balls. It resulted in me over-thinking it and I just quit before I even knew what it was to shoot a ball.

With regards to your first two contentions, theoretically yes you can will yourself to power through problems you're finding in your own playing, but consider this: how long were you playing 10 12 with that strange exaggerated wrist motion? A teacher would've spotted it immediately, put you on the right path, and saved you who-knows-how-much time. All the masters had teachers at one point. It's not a bad thing to have one, but can be very difficult to find a GOOD one.

One of the worst habits one can get into with 10 1 is playing it with tension, incorrect "flow" in the wrist, trying to force the notes...there are countless errors one can make that become all the more difficult to unlearn once you've been doing it long enough.

[yadeehoo]

Agree with you on so many levels.

What's happening with me i figured, is when a hindrance becomes too big, I eventually need to overcome it. Problem didn't start with Op10 No12, it was with moonlight sonata mvt3. I couldn't hit the notes accurately with thumb on the final. After a day of searching in the forums, YT and all, I realized I had a wrong arm approach, and tension. 

I seriously have to re-upload a video to show the progress. I know I won't play the pieces I'm learning in a performance this year or the next, but I'm just excited by challenges and beautiful pieces

[outin]

I don't believe in bad habits, just things you didn't learn yet.
...

Btw, I don't know any bad habit anyone can take from learning Op10 No1 ? It stretches your fingers, that's what is does...
...

These two lines alone tell me that you should get yourself a better teacher. As your own teacher you have already decided your opinion on this matter without actually taken the learning path to acceptable results or even done much research it seems. A good teacher will have taken and seen this path so many times they can apply it to their teaching.

Yes, sometimes one can make mistakes first to learn. But ignorance can take away the benefits of that approach. Because you might accidently come up with a better solution but don't necessarily understand what exactly it was essential in that change and won't be able to apply that to other things. And in many cases you won't come up with a good solution, just countless of ways to compensate your lack of ability.

[yadeehoo]

These two lines alone tell me that you should get yourself a better teacher. As your own teacher you have already decided your opinion on this matter without actually taken the learning path to acceptable results or even done much research it seems. A good teacher will have taken and seen this path so many times they can apply it to their teaching.

Yes, sometimes one can make mistakes first to learn. But ignorance can take away the benefits of that approach. Because you might accidently come up with a better solution but don't necessarily understand what exactly it was essential in that change and won't be able to apply that to other things. And in many cases you won't come up with a good solution, just countless of ways to compensate your lack of ability.

That was very inspiring and uplifting. Getting a teacher is a luxury not everyone can afford

[dogperson]

That was very inspiring and uplifting. Getting a teacher is a luxury not everyone can afford

You seem to be very motivated to learn complicated classical music, so Outo was offering you sound advise so that you progress faster, build the technical skills you need with the right technique.  No one can answer your economic question but you-- but see what discretionary spending you can eliminate to make it happen.. and we all have some of that.  Eliminate eating out, Starbucks, sodas, etc.

No matter how ambitious and dedicated you are, you need someone trained to see and hear you... the fact that you have advanced goals makes this even more important.  You may not believe in bad habits, but they are indeed real, and take a long time to eliminate.  Think about when you learn a measure with a wrong note and how hard it is to re-learn correctly.  This is compounded with technique. 


  If I have a problem with a passage, my teacher will approach it from multiple directions until we find a way that works for me.  You don't get that adaption from the internet.

Think about it.

[yadeehoo]

You seem to be very motivated to learn complicated classical music, so Outo was offering you sound advise so that you progress faster, build the technical skills you need with the right technique.  No one can answer your economic question but you-- but see what discretionary spending you can eliminate to make it happen.. and we all have some of that.  Eliminate eating out, Starbucks, sodas, etc.

No matter how ambitious and dedicated you are, you need someone trained to see and hear you... the fact that you have advanced goals makes this even more important.  You may not believe in bad habits, but they are indeed real, and take a long time to eliminate.  Think about when you learn a measure with a wrong note and how hard it is to re-learn correctly.  This is compounded with technique.  


  If I have a problem with a passage, my teacher will approach it from multiple directions until we find a way that works for me.  You don't get that adaption from the internet.

Think about it.

Thx to ppl in this forum, despite not having a real piano teacher, I learn a lot from the comments, and I can still upload a video so someone here can spot the flaws.

I don't have the problem of having to relearn wrong notes, I really don't. I just focus on what the new pattern should be, practice that, and so far it has done the trick.

Someone here yet have do define what "bad habit" is and how detrimental it could be

[visitor]

...Getting a teacher is a luxury not everyone can afford

playing the piano is in itself not a necessity, so your premise is flawed. you have chosed to undertake learning the piano, a luxury in and of itself. having access to sound instruction from a good instructor is necessary to make the progress you seem to be after if your aim is to play difficult literature well and without increased chances of injury.
having a good teacher is necessity given your goal/aspiration of approaching difficult standard lit works as  your attempt to prematurely learn the Chopin etude illustrated.

[yadeehoo]

Why is it that everybody thinks it's ludicrous to learn piano on your own? Am I the only person doing that in the world?

I can't help but liking pieces that happen to be difficult

[visitor]

Why is it that everybody thinks it's ludicrous to learn piano on your own? Am I the only person doing that in the world?

I can't help but liking pieces that happen to be difficult

didn't take issue with you attempt at trying to learn without proper instruction. Just your statements about access to instruction being a luxury, and your initial post about the early attempt at the etude being beneficial w/ no deleterious consequences (now or later)

[yadeehoo]

didn't take issue with you attempt at trying to learn without proper instruction. Just your statements about access to instruction being a luxury, and your initial post about the early attempt at the etude being beneficial w/ no deleterious consequences (now or later)

I have no idea what you're trying to say

[dogperson]

It is not ludicrous to learn piano on your own-- but it is ludicrous to expect to learn on your own the level of music you want to play at the rate you want to learn it.  You have received the same advice 'get a teacher' from many.  Pollini won the international Chopin competition at the age of 16 but then delayed a record contract to study more.  Maybe that should give you pause for thought.

Bad habits I had that I was not aware of:
_Tension in my right shoulder-- I didn't feel it!
- Good lateral wrist rotation but front/back wrist movement needed work
_Inefficient fingering
_tendency to play left hand chords micro-second off from right
_Too heavy use of pedal

Some bad habits in technique can cause injury.

It is not just the bad habit prevention:  you have already been told you will save time and progress faster.  Problem solving is so much easier-- my teacher has the experience and education to help me work through a passage multiple ways that I could not do on my own.  Really,  Learning to play well the more difficult music that I love is exactly the reason I continue lessons, and have no plans to stop.

 Think about it-- but you seem so resistant and that is a shame.

[yadeehoo]

Actually, I've already tried few teachers, but they didn't feel like teaching me anything, and finding the RIGHT teacher would be amazing I guess, but I live in a small town, so.

Sure if Yuja Wang wants to give me some lessons, I'm up for it. But the teachers I can find in my area make you learn what they think you should learn, so, it's not appropriate for me...

I appreciate every one of you here talking the time to give me useful info, cause that's all I have access to right now. And believe it or not, all the critics here have already helped me a lot.

[chechig]

All piano students, want to learn difficult pieces, that usually happen to be the nicest.
What would you think of a first year student that wants to play trascendental studies by Liszt?
I think is nonsense, unless you are a genious, maybe you could learn the notes, but that doesnt mean you play the piece, I can guarantee that. You should see piano learning as a long walk, each step takes you further, but if you suddenly jump, you will miss a lot of things you need to play well. Playing piano is not about playing notes, is much more complicated than that. The huge effort you are doing leaning that piece on your own, is not woth at all. Maybe it gives you the illusion of being a pianist, but is just an illusion. I agree with everybody, try to get a teacher, if is only once a month, even that will help you more than what you are doing now. It's up to you, of course, but learning piano is also about patience, among other things

[yadeehoo]

No idea why some ppl keep commenting in complete oblivion of what I previously wrote

It's not that I don't want a teacher, I just don't have access to one.

And for the millionth time. I'm not gonna learn a piece I don't feel a strong connection to just cause it's easy. Whatever the piece, slow practice is a tool accessible to all of us, regardless of our piano experience.

But if ppl mistake my enthusiasm for arrogance, I don't know what to say...

[outin]

It's not that I don't want a teacher, I just don't have access to one.

In that case you should minimize the damage and stop practicing the Chopin etudes. You can teach yourself to read and play less technically virtuous music with much better results.

I am not totally against learning on your own, but the goals should somewhat match the investment...

[yadeehoo]

In that case you should minimize the damage and stop practicing the Chopin etudes. You can teach yourself to read and play less technically virtuous music with much better results.

I am not totally against learning on your own, but the goals should somewhat match the investment...

I thought : what could be best than Chopin etudes to learn technique? It's basically what he wrote them for, no?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I used to be like you.

But a lot of time you'll have to learn pieces you don't wanna Learn.  And the teachers don't pick easy pieces for you just for the sake of them being easy.  There's something to gain from every piece.  You won't improve THAT much by only playing really hard stuff.  You need to have variety.

Right now I bet playing some Bach would be WAY more beneficial to you than playing Chopin etudes.  You may find him harder than Chopin for different reasons, not just blasting your hands all over the piano.  I personally hate Bach, but they make me play a Bach p&f every jury.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I thought : what could be best than Chopin etudes to learn technique? It's basically what he wrote them for, no?

Chopin etudes don't cover all aspects of technique.

And it's better to learn a different piece with a lighter technique load and then do another Chopin étude.  nobody starts off with Chopin etudes just to learn technique.

And since you're only two years in it's best to have someone watch over you to make sure that you're not doing something detrimental to yourself when playing these Chopin etudes.  It would be different if you've been playing for like 20 years and already went through all the motions but you're still fresh.

I'm not saying that you're guaranteed to get injured, but your likelihood of getting injured is higher if you don't have a teacher.  You don't need the BEST teacher but a regular dude will be fine.

And I'm not against you learning hard stuff.  I think that if you like it, you should learn it, but just do it with proper guidance.

[outin]

I thought : what could be best than Chopin etudes to learn technique? It's basically what he wrote them for, no?

Not really. Not for learning basic technique. He wrote them for advanced pianists. He didn't let his pupils play them.

What would be better for self teaching? Less virtuoso pieces from composers like Bach, Scarlatti, Clementi, Czerny, Mozart (I cannot believe I am saying this...). Music that you can play well without superhuman skills.

[chechig]

I dont' think you are arrogant, is not that. I used to be a self student myself, so I know what I'm talking about. Anyway, it's your choice, if you are happy with that, go for it. I just wanted to tell you that there are better ways of learning. I would die for playing Chopin etudes, I'm in my fifth year, but I dont' think I'm ready for them at all. I know it can be very frustrating, trying to learn a piece much harder of one's level, at least for me. Dont' missunderstimate "easy" piano pieces, if you want to play them properly, there's no such a thing.
Sorry if my words hurt you, it was not my intention

[yadeehoo]

There's one easy piece that I learned and I like, it's the Moonlight sonata. My second piece was Liebestraum. I also compose, so, I spend some time on that. Then I started to tackle Chopin and Horowitz, right away, as I didn't think of any other composer I would want to learn a piece form.

Could my piano injuries be compared to a rugby tackle, or something like that? Cause I've been through stuff, I have a pretty good tolerance to pain.

Sometimes my forearms hurt, and I feel fatigue, but other than that, I think I will be able to survive piano practice, as unforgiving as you guys seem to all agree on that it is.

I wanted to shoot an update video today, but I couldn't get a good lighting, the weather was all gloomy. As soon as I can I'll post a new video

[outin]

There's one easy piece that I learned and I like, it's the Moonlight sonata. My second piece was Liebestraum.

Neither of them are easy pieces. If you feel that way you, are probably not aware of all the things involved. Without a teacher it's very easy to think learning to play the piano is about learning to play correct notes in correct time. But that's only the beginning... Some pieces you can even make sound pretty decent (to non pianists at least) after hearing enough recordings and imitating what you hear. But it's only after taking the learning path from simpler music to more complicated one, that you can really hear what you are doing and are able to bring out all the levels of the composition (and even then you will usually feel inadequate).

Then I started to tackle Chopin and Horowitz, right away, as I didn't think of any other composer I would want to learn a piece form.

Well, that could be a problem...
But I am quite confident that it's only because you do not know much about classical piano music. If you like those pieces I am pretty certain you would like countless other pieces if you just knew them

You may not be aware of this:
Horowitz started piano lessons at the age of 6. He studied 9 years before entering the concervatory in Russia. He studied another 8 years before starting his concert career. And the studies in a Russian concervatory were rigorous. He was considered exceptionally talented as well. He composed the Carmen variations in the beginning of his concert career to show off his skills, then already an established virtuoso. Do you see how ridiculous it seems that you think you would be able to pull them off after a couple of years of self studying the piano?

Similarly Chopin wrote the etudes to show off his then revolutionary piano technique that he developed after studying the piano ever since a small child. Pianists who have studied the piano formally for 15 years don't usually find them easy to learn. Even most average piano teachers won't be able to play them well. They require solid piano technique developed over time AND special skills that are best learned from a highly qualified teacher.

Could my piano injuries be compared to a rugby tackle, or something like that? Cause I've been through stuff, I have a pretty good tolerance to pain.

Piano injuries are usually from over straining and forcing things instead of knowing how to do them "easily", not accidents like you'd have in sports. The worst kind IMO are nerve injuries. They often develope over some time and you don't necessary feel pain at all while playing. After the first signs appear (numbness or unusual feelings in fingers) and you still continue they can get worse pretty quickly. But they heal very slowly and you may find yourself unable to play at all for weeks or even months.

Habits like twisting or straining the wrists, overusing the fingers, pressing to the keybed and straining for large streches can cause these. Also bad posture can cause nerve irritation in the neck, shoulder or elbow.

[yadeehoo]

That's useful info here. I defo have to upload videos

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Could my piano injuries be compared to a rugby tackle, or something like that? Cause I've been through stuff, I have a pretty good tolerance to pain.

Sometimes my forearms hurt, and I feel fatigue, but other than that, I think I will be able to survive piano practice, as unforgiving as you guys seem to all agree on that it is.

You get tackled and jam or break a fineger.  If it's not THAT bad it'll heal and you'll be almost back to normal.

But getting carpal tunnel and tendonitis will REALLY *** you up bad.  And those don't go away.

[kawai_cs]

I do not think you can progress best and fastest that way, but it is up to you and if you have a lot of fun with that - than it is your choice to spend your time on the piano as you wish. If you ask me what I think about it - and since you started this post you are obviously curious what people think...
It seems to me that you are, to use the most resembling metaphor, trying to learn a few sentences in Chinese by heart, not learning the grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation.

[yadeehoo]

I do not think you can progress best and fastest that way, but it is up to you and if you have a lot of fun with that - than it is your choice to spend your time on the piano as you wish. If you ask me what I think about it - and since you started this post you are obviously curious what people think...
It seems to me that you are, to use the most resembling metaphor, trying to learn a few sentences in Chinese by heart, not learning the grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation.

Quite luminous metaphor indeed. I start with a vision of what the piece should sound like, and focus on the sonic delivery, regardless sometimes of the physical reality.

[yadeehoo]

I can play the whole etude half tempo on metronome without missing a single beat

[tenk]

I can play the whole etude half tempo on metronome without missing a single beat

This is all well and good, but if you are asking for help (which I presume you are given that you made this thread  ) we really need to see what you're doing at the keys before anyone can offer useful advice.

[kawai_cs]

I can play the whole etude half tempo on metronome without missing a single beat

Wow, you work hard!   It is just that you could be working so much more efficiently... if you got a teacher and worked with material that is really meant to teach you basic skills. First things first - it makes sense.
I understand you perfectly because I did similar thing in the past. I mean, I went to music school but I hated the pieces that my teacher assigned me and would always devote more time to Chopin's pieces, etudes, polonaises, mazurkas. My teacher was mad but I was happy and proud that I was playing what I loved. But it did cause tension and I was more like "pushing" my hands, my brain to play something out of my reach than gathering the necessary techniques. And if you don't learn then - you just can't use them. You may push yourself into playing something hard by doing hours of practice but this will not be the same as when you have the technique to play it.
 If you don't have the technique, you have to push it by practicing long hours but it is never as reliable as it should be with a piece that you actually have skills for.
To bring a Chopin etude to the required tempo without the arsenal of required technique skills is impossible.
I am not saying that you don't have it - I don't know but since you don't have a teacher - it is very likely and that's why people keep asking you for video because they want to see how you are doing.
Anyways, good luck, I admire that amount of determination and passion you have:-)

[yadeehoo]

No teacher could practice instead of me, Of course, having good critics can make things better, but practice is still 99% of the job. I was talking about Op10 no12 that I play on metronome half tempo, but also Op10 No1 in parts.

I didn't want to show a performance of it, cause it's practice tool for me, but you guys seem to wonder lots of things, so I guess, I'll have to show the progress.

This post wasn't exactly asking for help, it had more a purpose to be inspirational. A very different way to approach music, whatever the status quo says.

[outin]

No teacher could practice instead of me, Of course, having good critics can make things better, but practice is still 99% of the job.

The teacher could show you how to practice correctly though...incorrect practice won't really get you that far, it's just a lot of wasted time.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The teacher could show you how to practice correctly though...incorrect practice won't really get you that far, it's just a lot of wasted time.

+1

[dogperson]

This post wasn't exactly asking for help, it had more a purpose to be inspirational. A very different way to approach music, whatever the status quo says.

No one will see your plan as 'inspirational' as there is no evidence that what you are doing is effective.   It's good to know that you are not asking for help-- a lot of people have assumed that you were looking for advice. 

[yadeehoo]

No one will see your plan as 'inspirational' as there is no evidence that what you are doing is effective.   It's good to know that you are not asking for help-- a lot of people have assumed that you were looking for advice.  

Well of course if you guys spot something that I didn't, it's highly appreciated.

As for the speculations that I'm wasting my time practicing wrong and that I'm gonna wreck my fingers, might be right, might be wrong...

I don't feel pain at all and practice has improved my flexibility. It's harder to break something flexible...

You don't have to believe me when I say these etudes have been beneficial to me, but it's the headline of this post. I'm sure some other people have taken some benefit from them as well.

But is there any of guys here commenting that actually play these etudes? I hope so, otherwise it would be like being a doctor and telling a carpenter he's not holding his hammer right, yet he builds...

[hardy_practice]

yet he builds...

[yadeehoo]

Very charming and unique. One that can't be ignored

[outin]

But is there any of guys here commenting that actually play these etudes? I hope so, otherwise it would be like being a doctor and telling a carpenter he's not holding his hammer right, yet he builds...

Like you I tried to learn a couple of them a few years back. But came to my senses pretty quickly. Since then I have settled for the preludes, they present enough challenge for now. The complete edition of the etudes is sitting on my shelf, take it out occasionally and pretty quickly return it to it's resting place...

[chechig]

But is there any of guys here commenting that actually play these etudes? I hope so, otherwise it would be like being a doctor and telling a carpenter he's not holding his hammer right, yet he builds...

Of course not, I'm not that crazy, in my fifth year of study, there's no way I learn that etudes, I wish I could!! But I have the scores, for the future. Reading your post, I dont' know if you are very stubborn or you are trying to convince everyone that this is the best way and that we are wasting our time learning in a normal path.

[yadeehoo]

Of course not, I'm not that crazy, in my fifth year of study, there's no way I learn that etudes, I wish I could!! But I have the scores, for the future. Reading your post, I dont' know if you are very stubborn or you are trying to convince everyone that this is the best way and that we are wasting our time learning in a normal path.

What I'm saying is I'm choosing a piece because I like it. If it's hard, so be it, I'll just practice it slower, for longer. Everything is hard before it becomes second nature. It's the same for professional players, prodigies and geniuses. It's hard for them too when they try to learn a Chopin etude for the first time.

Maybe you can't play them only because you believe it's impossible, So you don't even try. If you did, you'd realize, it's not impossible, just hard. Then overtime hard becomes easier, and so on