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Poll
Question: What are the 3 most boring/dull/bad concerti?
Kosenko Op. 23 - 5 (31.3%)
Padarewski Op. 17 - 4 (25%)
Other - 7 (43.8%)
Total Voters: 11

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Author Topic: Worst Piano Concerti  (Read 1681 times)
rubinsteinmad
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« on: November 08, 2015, 10:24:44 PM »

What are the worst concerti?

And just to let some stuck-up members know, the Grieg is not among the worst concerti.
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schumaniac
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2015, 10:57:57 PM »

Kosenko's concerto is certainly up there.

edit: here are videos of each concerto
Paderewski

(played by Kevin Kenner, 2nd place [no 1st place] of the Chopin Competition 1990)

Thalberg

played by Michael Ponti; he won the Busoni in 1964

Tchaikovsky 2nd

played by Richter

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schumaniac
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2015, 11:16:59 PM »

oh and I now think THIS is probably the worst piano concerto ever written.
Richard Kastle's 8th piano concerto (awkward passagework, choppy phrases, strange harmonies, cheesy quotes from The Swan, mediocre orchestration...)
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schumaniac
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2015, 11:17:59 PM »

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chopinlover01
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 12:21:47 AM »

Why the Thalberg? It's certainly better than the Schu-sh*t. Or the Grieg.
My vote is cast for the Beethoven 1st.
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 01:09:26 AM »

Schumann
Schumann
Schumann

It gets all 3 of my places because how damn often it's performed. All the concertos in the poll are much better than the Schumann, although that isn't saying much, and yet the Schumann has been performed hundreds of times more than all of those combined.
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zpianist
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 02:19:35 AM »

^ I signed up to say: F U C K Y'ALL FOR HATING ON SCHUMANN
WHY do y'all hate the Schumann concerto?
(and Grieg too for that matter- I don't understand the hate. It's an emotionally satisfying work, it flows in terms of phrasing and structure, the language is reasonably pianistic... If you have something against the particular chromatic style of Grieg though I can understand)

(jk no I'm schumaniac's alt account b/c I changed the password to my main in a sort of "grand gesture." rather like Oedipus gouging out his eyes. I blindfolded myself and "trilled" a certain number of keys on the keyboard to make the password for this one too, so I don't know the password to it either. But I just HAD to comment on this.)
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outin
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 03:59:08 AM »

Well, that was easy...There's nothing duller than the Tchaikovsky concertos, no matter what Thal says...
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 06:16:11 AM »

I LOVE THE GRIEG CONCERTO!! And I voted for Kosenko. It's terrible poop. But anyway I love the Grieg, the first movement is completely beast, the second movement is beautiful, and the third movement is poop, but that's ok. The first 2 kind of make up for it.
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 11:01:37 AM »



Liszt, Piano Concerto No. 1

-Bombastic, Melodramatic, Langlangish, Shallow. A Joke
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pencilart3
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 02:14:48 PM »

Liszt, Piano Concerto No. 1

I really like that one also. Sheesh.
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outin
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 02:36:51 PM »

I really like that one also. Sheesh.
I like it too and I am not much of a fan of Liszt. It's weird in a good way and quite entertaining...
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 03:18:40 PM »

Tchaikovsky concert fantasy > Pc1 and Pc2
schumann and grieg are almost equal in their dullness. *shots fired.
Kosenko's not for everyone, that's okay, some folks just don't like that kind of high neoramanticism, though i suspect there is an inverse relationship in liking something as boring the as the Schumann or Grieg and not being able to appreciate the melodic transformations and lyricism of the uber romantics.

PS
Taneyev pc  (even in unfinished state) > Franky L's pc1.  Tongue



and Nymann's concerto is about as bad as Bobby S's.
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pencilart3
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 06:01:50 PM »

By the way, it is threads like this that made this site go downhill. We've lost Theme, Josh, and now AJ. Not trying to be rude, but Rubinsteinmad, a lot of this is your fault. I'm going to try to be the police here and clean this place up, I'm on the verge of leaving this place myself, which I know many of you would appreciate. But this place used to be such an amazing website where people could ask questions and learn freely without fear of being squashed. There used to be helpful topics that were not created to be barbs at others, or, like this one, decide what the worst concerto was. I know I have not been the best at this myself, but I have resolved to either change that or leave. Before you make a topic, please think "How will this contribute to this website?".
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 06:40:23 PM »

Of course, there is nothing worse than the Schumann virus and i would rather drink camel spit than be subjected to its boredom again.

Other notable failures would have to include Berkeley, Barber, Grieg, Hoveness, McCabe, Sculthorpe and just about anything written in the last 50 years. In addition an epileptic octopus creates a more pleasing sound than the pointless note flinging of Finnissy 2.

Thal
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 08:20:20 PM »

Of course, there is nothing worse than the Schumann virus and i would rather drink camel spit than be subjected to its boredom again.

Other notable failures would have to include Berkeley, Barber, Grieg, Hoveness, McCabe, Sculthorpe and just about anything written in the last 50 years. In addition an epileptic octopus creates a more pleasing sound than the pointless note flinging of Finnissy 2.

Thal

I can't comment on the accuracy of this quote, but it did make me laugh nevertheless.

+1
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 08:28:16 PM »

Excellent. I have never wished to be taken seriously.

Thal
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 12:59:03 AM »

By the way, it is threads like this that made this site go downhill. We've lost Theme, Josh, and now AJ. Not trying to be rude, but Rubinsteinmad, a lot of this is your fault. I'm going to try to be the police here and clean this place up, I'm on the verge of leaving this place myself, which I know many of you would appreciate. But this place used to be such an amazing website where people could ask questions and learn freely without fear of being squashed. There used to be helpful topics that were not created to be barbs at others, or, like this one, decide what the worst concerto was. I know I have not been the best at this myself, but I have resolved to either change that or leave. Before you make a topic, please think "How will this contribute to this website?".

Oh really? How bout your topic on me vs. you?
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 01:01:10 AM »

The Thalberg is certainly better than.... the Grieg.


No it isn't.

Your posts seem to show
(1) are a *** communist who hates famous stuff OR, more likely,
(2) you are WAYYYY too gullible and listen to thalbergmad and visitors' crap-throwing WAY TOO MUCH.
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 01:01:51 AM »

Schumann
Schumann
Schumann

It gets all 3 of my places because how damn often it's performed. All the concertos in the poll are much better than the Schumann, although that isn't saying much, and yet the Schumann has been performed hundreds of times more than all of those combined.

The Kosenko is not better, let alone "much better".
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 01:20:35 AM »

Tchaikovsky concert fantasy > Pc1 and Pc2
schumann and grieg are almost equal in their dullness. *shots fired.
Kosenko's not for everyone, that's okay, some folks just don't like that kind of high neoramanticism, though i suspect there is an inverse relationship in liking something as boring the as the Schumann or Grieg and not being able to appreciate the melodic transformations and lyricism of the uber romantics.

PS
Taneyev pc  (even in unfinished state) > Franky L's pc1.  Tongue



"How do you mean boring?
Do you find a famous work
And reject it as "boring"?  Embarrassed

How could you?
How could you freeze your once-golden heart?  Cry
 
Let it go!  Smiley Let it go!  Smiley
Don't hold it back anymore...
Let it go!  Smiley Let it go! Smiley
Smoke marijuana and POOF, you'll soar...

I don't care, what your going to say..
Retrieve your golden heart!
Smoke marijuana and be gay!
Schumann doesn't influence me anyway.

(The snow piles up in the river Nile,
From the Mountains to the kangaroo,
I see a photo of a shining king,
And it seems like it is you!)

Let them go! Let them go!
Release the Tchaikovsky Fantasie,
That and the Taneyev
Need not OVERCOME THEE!

I DONT CARE,
WHAT YOUR GONNA SAY.
Even if you curse at me,
It wont bother me anyway. *hairflip*"
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 01:27:02 AM »

Of course, there is nothing worse than the Schumann virus and i would rather drink camel spit than be subjected to its boredom again.

Laugh. Out. Loud. (At. You.)
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 01:58:20 AM »

Oh really? How bout your topic on me vs. you?

Yup, that wasn't helpful either and I'm sorry for making it. I am done making silly topics and turning every single thread into a member war.
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 02:19:51 AM »

Yup, that wasn't helpful either and I'm sorry for making it. I am done making silly topics and turning every single thread into a member war.

Yup, that wasn't helpful either and I'm sorry for making it. I am done making silly topics and turning every single thread into a member war.

I think Ill stop... now.

Do you think the "Single Pianists-Couples" is a spam topic?
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 03:18:58 AM »

Other notable failures would have to include...Barber
Really? Mon Dieu!

Hoveness
Never heard of him/her.

and just about anything written in the last 50 years
I am relieved that my only work for piano and orchestra is not a concerto, otherwise it would surely appear on your list.

In addition an epileptic octopus creates a more pleasing sound than the pointless note flinging of Finnissy 2.
Which of his seven is your favourite, then?

Best,

Alistair
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pencilart3
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 03:22:12 AM »

Do you think the "Single Pianists-Couples" is a spam topic?

Nah... at least it's about pianists and it's lighthearted and fairly interesting... and it hasn't been made before!
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 03:27:47 AM »

Tchaikovsky concert fantasy > Pc1 and Pc2
Is the Concert Fantasy considered a Concerto?
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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2015, 04:27:48 PM »

"How do you mean boring?
Do you find a famous work
And reject it as "boring"?  Embarrassed


I mean boring is boring. Boring as being defined as if i listen to a few minutes of it and i find myself falling alseep or my mind wanders like recalling if i have cleaned the lint trap of my clothes dryer lately boring. Or if i give a work a few chances and listen all the way through, then again w score, and still feel like it's time i could have better spent.

I like "Famous" when it isn't junky or boring. Ie Famous concerti I like include output from  folks like Arensky, Bowen, Dobrowen, Beethoven, Mozart, Kabalevsky, etc etc. , lots of lots of famous names.
Is the Concert Fantasy considered a Concerto?
it checks off most of the important boxes.  the literature has examples where fantasy/fantasia is used in lieu of 'sonata' or works start as a sonata and on the editing floor a publisher changes the name.  Many recital comittees and competition boards (the non 'stuffy' ones) will consider them fairly on par w each other.  Heck theme and variations are sometimes allowed as substitutes  as well.  An excellent example is my 'favorite sonata' of Scriabin which is actually published as the Fantasy Op 28, everything about it in terms of form, thematic development, idea transformation etc screams it is a 'single movement' sonata on a smaller scale. Concertos are essentially a sonata for piano and orchestra (at their most basic, but grander, larger).
So for these things I consider fantasias, theme and var (piano and orchestra) rhapsodies (ie the "warsaw concerto isn't really a concerto it's closer akin to a rhapsody but still checks lots of boxes off), and similar animals by other names (ie Babajanian's Heroic Ballade*see example below) for Piano and Orchestra, but we can call some of these fridge examples 'pastiches'  Grin  ).

fyi, this is rad (there's video of Arno himself playing this too out there)
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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2015, 05:13:25 PM »

I

ps cool encore at the end of it all after the lengthy applause/ovation they receive. audience really really loved this work so he gives them a little solo towards the end there  Cool
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 12:10:01 AM »


Let it go!  Smiley Let it go!  Smiley
Don't hold it back anymore...
Let it go!  Smiley Let it go! Smiley
Smoke marijuana and POOF, you'll soar...

I don't care, what your going to say..
Smoke marijuana and be gay!
Schumann doesn't influence me anyway.
Even if you curse at me,
It wont bother me anyway. *hairflip*"

*facepalm
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rubinsteinmad
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 12:40:06 AM »

Do y'all think the MacDowell could be on this list?
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 03:18:28 AM »

.
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 03:20:37 AM »

.
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zpianist
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 03:32:38 AM »

.
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 11:29:29 AM »

Not really; at least he can write flowing, symmetrical phrases in multiples of 2, something which Kosenko was apparently incapable of (edit: IN HIS PIANO CONCERTO I am listening to his op. 8 etudes and they are beautiful, though the transitions between themes are again not very natural)... (Note: it's one thing to be capable of writing "conventional" phrases, but choosing not to for artistic effect [as was the case of Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms...], but not being able to write them or not having an explanation for choosing not to is another thing altogether, and signifies incompetence, something that no one likes in anything...)  

And MacDowell's concerto is a cross between the Grieg and the Brahms (which makes it either really good or really bad, depending on who you ask)

K lel...

I'll bite.
On pretentiousness and repulsiveness, i was acutally aiming for something between blittering idiot and total irrelevance. But glad to know i can accidentally make an impact.
Btw i borrowed the term.   Neoromanticism is commonly used to describe the style of music that turned its back on the new and ermerging modern aethetic especially at the turn of and through first third of the 20th century. Blame the musicologists not me.
High was used to point out by chronology that the music came at the peak, timeline wise, of a period where several composers were putting out quite a bit of music in the older antiquated style.  By definition if output peaks or swells up from lower levels before decreasing again then std logic and basic critical thinking would lead one to call it a high.  So again std vocab quiz word from a basic undergraduate non music major music appreciation book and basic label placing a work in a short period of high total output. Just sayin. I think you give me too much credit, but thanks i guess.

Btw i love coffee and yes i drank it before it was cool. I was also a hipster before hipster was a thing especially since generally those cats like new stuff before its cool, i honestly prefer the old and outdated alongside the standard and popular ie love.mozart brahms bach beethoven mahler bruckner and r strauss etc etc.

Its cool you have a strong opinion On the koseno concerto.  I havent given it that much thought, to me its pretty, easy to listen to and doesnt bore me. Thats about it really.
Oh well, no worries, i got no beef w you, its a well formed and supported opinion, we should be so lucky that more people would actually have logical reasons behind their statements and counter arguments and think before they allow their latest manifeststion of keyboard diarrhea hit the submit button. Its refreshing actually and we should have more of that.
But good for you for coming out swinging.

Btw on mcdowell, i mostly agree w you .  I love some parts and other i feel just sort,  meh....  kinda like plain mashed potatoes, its decent  but difinately would be better w some salt pepper and a bit of gravy.

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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 10:30:42 PM »

I LOVE THE GRIEG CONCERTO!! And I voted for Kosenko. It's terrible poop. But anyway I love the Grieg, the first movement is completely beast, the second movement is beautiful, and the third movement is poop, but that's ok. The first 2 kind of make up for it.

Agreed 100% except for the 3rd movement; I love the 3rd movement. It has a gorgeous slow section, as well as a moving finish.
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 10:39:23 PM »

I really like that one also. Sheesh.
Me too, the Liszt Concerto #1 is AMAZING.

I don't like #2 as much; I think its too exhausting for me.
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 11:50:57 PM »

I'm sure there are worst piano concerti (by reputable composers) than the Schumann. Unfortunately I can't think of any I despise as much as it. I don't think the Paderewski is terribly distinguished, if I'm being honest. There are certainly a few from the classical era which are rather lacklustre sub-Mozartean trips through cliched harmonic progressions eg the C major one by Mayr. I have no time for them but at least they are unpretentious whereas the Schumann has, for me, reached the point of complete unlistenability, unless I have chronic insomnia, in which case it is very reliable.

Beethoven 2 is surely his weakest effort. Not sure why Tchaik 2 is here - I think it's better than 1! I don't mind the Grieg if it's played with a certain amount of panache (eg Cziffra, Michelangeli).

Oh, and that Kastle one some posted a link for - the basic thematic material's actually all right. Unfortunately he does virtually nothing with it, just repeats the progressions over and over with changing pianistic texture.
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 02:39:25 AM »

Me too, the Liszt Concerto #1 is AMAZING.

I don't like #2 as much; I think its too exhausting for me.

Exactly! Wow we agree on something.... Grin
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 02:44:42 AM »

Exactly! Wow we agree on something.... Grin
Wow I agree as well! Except the 2nd has some moments which are so tender and beautiful... (e.g. the main melody, the modulation into E major, and the cello/piano duet in the "2nd movement.") along with some moments of power and triumph (the main theme restated near the end).

Then again, it's a one movement work, and so much "happens" in it that it's not easy to listen to from start to finish. It's too "intense" and exhausting, indeed...
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2015, 03:43:13 AM »

I'm sure there are worst piano concerti (by reputable composers) than the Schumann. Unfortunately I can't think of any I despise as much as it. I don't think the Paderewski is terribly distinguished, if I'm being honest. There are certainly a few from the classical era which are rather lacklustre sub-Mozartean trips through cliched harmonic progressions eg the C major one by Mayr. I have no time for them but at least they are unpretentious whereas the Schumann has, for me, reached the point of complete unlistenability, unless I have chronic insomnia, in which case it is very reliable.

[...]
Please, y'all who hate the Schumann, tell me more about why you hate the Schumann.

And now, another one of my long-ass commentaries.
Quote
I don't understand why you guys dislike him so much. Yes, through the first movement, he uses one, and only one subject to drive through the whole piece (this is especially heard in the development)... And yes, it does has imperfections and moments when you're like "Schumann what are you trying to say?"
But I can "turn to" this music. It (it's one theme Grin) is so cathartic- beautifully tender and melancholic at times, and passionate in others... I think the concerto presents a range of emotions which are genuine and heartfelt. It shows to me the strength of Schumann's love for Clara.
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outin
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2015, 05:22:46 AM »

To edit a poll after people have voted is like running elections in certain parts of the world...
You're a bad girl Rub and you deserve to be spanked!

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My summer projects: Scarlatti K87, K466, K109, Scriabin op74 preludes, Chopin Waltz 69-2 and Berceuse. And just exploring more music...
ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2015, 11:50:16 AM »

Please, y'all who hate the Schumann, tell me more about why you hate the Schumann.

Quote from: ronde_des_sylphes

Discursive, rambling, tedious writing giving away his inability to write coherently within large-scale structures. His attempts at profundity are filtered through a heady dose of bourgeois schmalz and tend to make me laugh. On the other hand, his light relief brings to mind the stereotypical British view on Teutonic humour.


And for more commentary, which you may find enlightening, amusing.. or neither Grin:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36737.0
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36733.0


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perfect_pitch
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 02:04:02 PM »

Wow I agree as well! Except the 2nd has some moments which are so tender and beautiful... (e.g. the main melody, the modulation into E major, and the cello/piano duet in the "2nd movement.") along with some moments of power and triumph (the main theme restated near the end).

Then again, it's a one movement work, and so much "happens" in it that it's not easy to listen to from start to finish. It's too "intense" and exhausting, indeed...

Oh rubbish - I think the 2nd Piano concerto is far better than the 1st - possibly because the 1st piano concerto is overplayed.

If I had to choose a worse concerto, then I'd actually say that Rachmaninoff's 1st piano concerto is rather awful... it sounds way too cobbled together with various random ideas. Given however, he was (I think) 18 when he wrote it - it's not bad, but doesn't stand up to his other great concerti (the 2nd and the 3rd...) as the 4th concerto sucks.
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visitor
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 02:10:41 PM »

And for more commentary, which you may find enlightening, amusing.. or neither Grin:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36737.0
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36733.0



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