brexit?!!?

[mjames]

I take a break from paying attention to politics for like a week and now I'm hearing stuff about britain leaving the EU. Seriously though, brits of PS, what are your thoughts?

[thalbergmad]

It is something that many Brits (including me) have been battling against for years and this morning it would be difficult for me to be more happy.

The EU is a failed experiment, riddled by fraud and incompetence and is a gravy train for failed unelected and unaccountable politicians. For years, the UK has been pumping billions into this nonsense only to have our Country effectively governed for us.

The result was always going to be close, as Scotland is a net beneficiary and voted heavily for Remain, but the result in England was spectacular. Ordinary working class people are fed up with the ruling elite, sky high immigration that we have no control over and the hated European Human Rights regulations that was always going to benefit crooks and terrorists.

The people have spoken and now hopefully other Countries will be granted a vote on this. The Dutch will almost certainly vote out.

Long live England and bollocks to the EU.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The news is getting better as Cameron has resigned. A Prime Minister who would happily make cuts and watch the British people suffer whilst pouring billions down the throats of foreigners.

Good riddance.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This is what happens if the political system refuses to have a serious debate on the merits or otherwise of immigration and just shouts "racist" or "bigot" at anyone questioning it, then offers what is essentially a binary and non political party-based choice on that proposition. The EU has also expanded well beyond its original remit as a trading organisation.

Thal, Scotland is in a very different place politically to England just now, largely due to having a credible centre-left party whereas England doesn't. It's nothing to do with EU finance. I don't know a single person for whom that was an issue. This time we should take our independence at the ballot box; the question has to be asked under the circumstances and bearing in mind one of the primary weapons of those against it was "but an independent Scotland won't get admitted to the EU".

[thalbergmad]

I have to bow to your superior knowledge in Scottish matters old chap, but I would have been amazed if the Scots voted for Brexit. One does not bite the hand that feeds it.

I hope the Scots get another referendum and vote for independence. They can then pay for their membership.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Oddly, unlike many I suspect of my persuasion, I'm quite Eurosceptic regarding a potential independent Scotland. The EU is a good idea - in principle. In reality there are a lot of issues, not least that a large bureaucracy's primary function (no matter what they say to the contrary) ends up being self-perpetuation.

[visitor]

Well said to thal and ronde!

Honestly lately everything on both sides of the swimming pool w regard some of the issues mentioned, it  is enough to make me want to seriously rethink my long term life plans. Situations are getting untennable.

if i find a way to leave here and live on a beach in Belize or Fiji, ill ask you two if you want to help me farm organic coconuts and start up a beach pub, maybe also rent out stand up paddleboards to tourists.  That sounds like a pretty sweet life.

we can all bring up to two pianos or 1 piano and several banjos each. Zika virus, smirus

 

[outin]

I will start my own colony somewhere a little cooler, not that fond of constant sunshine... Everyone with a piano is welcome to join me:)

Actually I have lived completely out of the normal BS for the last 3 weeks and I could stay here for a lot longer...the only thing I miss I an acoustic piano.

But I could use some more hands though...Today I was doing some construction work and hit my thumb joint with a hammer. Not hard but enough to bruise it. Hitting nails is not my thing...as hard as hitting the right piano keys

[ronde_des_sylphes]

A lot of highly negative, hate-filled rhetoric designed to play on people's prejudices throughout the campaign (from both sides). You don't tackle serious issues in this way. So much festering resentment out there now: yes the world is a very messed-up place and part of this problem (from a European view) is that the mess is normally contained in the areas the West doesn't really care much about: now it is spilling out.

I feel deeply sorry for the people in the Middle East who are being dislocated by the "collateral damage" inflicted by the complete irresponsibility of our political class. If we were in their situation, too bloody right we would be trying to get ourselves and our families out. Unfortunately the whole mess isn't nearly that simple and it is more than understandable if people have fears about national security/identity etc. It's a very powerful card. I think if we go bombing the crap out of countries for our own petty political gain we have a moral responsibility to tidy up the mess - unfortunately it has also encouraged a cancerous radicalism to emerge. This is but one part of a wider and highly charged debate. I think, in a pan-European sense, the vote is the wrong choice, but at the same time I think it is highly understandable that it has gone the way it has - particularly when, as I alluded to previously, the majority of those who wished to defend the status quo didn't get beyond scaremongering and name-calling. Some of the arguments which were invoked by the Remain side make me suspect that their proponents secretly wanted to encourage the opposite outcome.

[visitor]

Ronde sets up the complexity of theseissues well, and i  agree that regardless of one's personal stance on these and siimilar matters, we should remember the human condition, suffering is real and any solutions or compromise should be teathered w kindness and love for innocent people, and swift  brave decisons in standing up for good aganist evil/bad people who would inflict pain on the innocent in persuit of their ideals and personal gains

[visitor]

I will start my own colony somewhere a little cooler, not that fond of constant sunshine... Everyone with a piano is welcome to join me:)

Actually I have lived completely out of the normal BS for the last 3 weeks and I could stay here for a lot longer...the only thing I miss I an acoustic piano.

But I could use some more hands though...Today I was doing some construction work and hit my thumb joint with a hammer. Not hard but enough to bruise it. Hitting nails is not my thing...as hard as hitting the right piano keys

outin a diverse economy  is a robust one. Your nothern regions could benefit an infusion of coconut revenues.
We shoudl talk , if you want to annex my little slice of tropical paradise, that could be cool.  The common wealth would benefit us both.

We get to have our own flag


,

and i have a cool idea for your independent republic of outinland

[outin]

Aren't you forgetting I'm the crazy cat lady!? No dogs in my flag! 

So we have a diplomatic crisis already...

[iansinclair]

I'm not all that surprised -- either at the solidity of the Scottish districts, all Remain -- or at the overall result.  Oddly, I agree with much of what both Thal and Ronde had to say.  I do think that an independent Scotland would have a pretty rough go of it; while the SNP does -- apparently -- represent the central belt well, it does not represent the other four sections (Highland, Western Isles, Borders, or Caithness and Orkney and Shetland).  And, as Thal noted, Scotland is a net beneficiary of the EU, and has, as North Sea oil tapers off, not a whole lot else going for it.

I'm Orcadian originally (I live in the US now), as may have been obvious (!) and there are a good many of us in our windy isles who would much rather tie up with Norway as remain with Scotland as represented by the central belt folks.

There is an ancient Chinese curse which is applicable: "May you live in interesting times"...

[ahinton]

I have a number of views on the referendum.

1.   I do not believe that there was any need to call it in the first place and I daresay Mr Cameron, whose motivation in so doing seems to have been based more on hapless attempts at a repair job on divisions within his own political party than with the interests of the UK population, almost certainly now regrets having launched it
2.   The manner in which most MPs, captains of industry, scientists, bankers and others (not least a certain Mr Farage) handled the run up to it was a disgrace
3.   That its terms and conditions included simple majority regardless of turnout (OK, the overall turnout was quite high, as it happened) so that, on a turnout of less than 50% (had that happened) it could have gone either way on the basis of just a single vote
4.   That the result was so divisive in many ways – Scotland from much of the rest of UK, city dwellers from others, old from young – will continue to have adverse repercussions indefinitely
5.   The political repercussions in particular will almost certainly signal ongoing instability; Mr Cameron’s announced his resignation, Mr Corbyn’s being subject to a vote of no confidence, the positions of the leaders of all other parties which supported Remain (i.e. all other than the dreadful UKIP) are looking increasingly parlous and there will likely be both a second Scottish independence referendum and another UK General Election before long and, whilst the former’s result looks relatively certain, the outcome of the latter is likely to be such that a further General Election might need to be held not long after it
6.   That out of more than 40m voters, the difference between the Remainers and the Leavers is less than 2m (3.8%) illustrates the dangers of allowing so fundamental an issue be determined by so tiny a majority
7.   A few other EU member states look set at least to consider the possibility of holding referenda to leave EU, which would make an already flawed institution more unstable still
8.   Brexit will have an adverse effect on every EU member state, not just UK and, if more member states decide to leave, the effect on UK and the remainder of EU will become worse still.
For these reasons and more, I believe that the entire referendum’s been an unnecessary, farcical and acrimonious shambles and I would say so even had Remain won – which I sincerely wish it had.

A petition on the UK government website against the holding of the referendum without provision for a re-run in the event either of less than a 60% vote for either side or a turnout of less than 75% has reached more than 110,000 signatures within just a few hours of launch; almost all such petitions that exceed 100,000 signatures have to be debated in Parliament, though how much good that might do (if indeed it even could do any) remains far from clear. It obviously has a popular following, not only from the number of signatories in so short a time but because the government's petition website keeps crashing beause of volume of traffic.

The petition should, however, have been mounted immediately following the announcement of the referendum and its terms and conditions rather than waiting until now.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No doubt it was a close call, but discounting the votes of the Countries that get more out than they put in, the vote of the English people was clearly in favour of a Brexit and only bad losers would want a re-run.

The whole campaign has been divisive and most politicians, previous Prime Ministers and business leaders favoured Remain, but I feel that such is the mistrust of our leaders, that many people (including me) took that they meant Remain would be good for them and not the average working man, which would almost certainly have been the case if Remain had won.

The treatment of Nigel Farage has been appalling. He has been labelled a racist and the biased BBC never misses an opportunity to have a go. However, he speaks for a lot of working class people that simply want to be in control of their own future and are fed up with the wave of humanity invading our borders that undercut wages. He is more trustworthy than the entire Labour Party put together and at least with him you know what you are getting.

It is a great day to be an Englishman and I do not agree with the doom merchants. The referendum has been won for the Brexiters and the traitor Cameron has rightly resigned. Maybe now, we can start to build this Country back to greatness and stop pouring billions down the throats of foreigners.

If the Scots want Independence, then let them have and if they want EU membership, then they can foot the bill.

Bollox to the EU.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, Thal, we'll have at least in part to agree to disagree there (as indeed I rather expected).

No doubt it was a close call, but discounting the votes of the Countries that get more out than they put in, the vote of the English people was clearly in favour of a Brexit and only bad losers would want a re-run.

The T&Cs for the referendum should have been challenged at the outset and, had that been done successfully, there would either have been a need for a re-run or the status quo would have held sway; something as important as this should not be decidable regardless of what proportion of the electorate vote and regardless of how small the majority is. I would say the same had there been a tiny majority in favour of Remain on a less than 75% turnout, so my view has nothing to do with "bad losing".

Indeed, the first Scottish referendum should have been held under the same T&Cs - 60%+ for the winning side af 75%+ turnout and it should also be for the second one.

The whole campaign has been divisive and most politicians, previous Prime Ministers and business leaders favoured Remain, but I feel that such is the mistrust of our leaders, that many people (including me) took that they meant Remain would be good for them and not the average working man, which would almost certainly have been the case if Remain had won.

Here I do broadly agree with you. The manner in which the campaign was handled on both siade left a great deal to be desired; indeed, some (including Jeremy Corbyn) have noted that the Leave vote is largely one of protest against "the establishment" and I'm not so sure that this is far wrong. However, those who voted Remain did not all do it in the principal hope of feathering their own personal nests; I do not think it credible to claim thus for the majorities in the cities not only of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee but also Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Bristol and substantial parts of London.

The treatment of Nigel Farage has been appalling.

Substitute "by" for "of" and you'd be dead right!

He has been labelled a racist and the biased BBC never misses an opportunity to have a go.

But what would you expect when so much of what he says and thinks is represented by that poster? He is a disgrace to politics (although far from alone in that!).

However, he speaks for a lot of working class people that simply want to be in control of their own future and are fed up with the wave of humanity invading our borders that undercut wages.

I don't believe that. Immigration as an issue in the "debate" hs been whipped up mainly by Mr Farage, the principal aim of whose wearisome presentation seems to be to mimic an English pub bore; his party polled less than 4m votes in the last General Election, which is less than one quarter of the votes for Leave yesterday, which shows clearly that immigration was only a relatively small issue for the Leavers as a while.

Statistics can be a fickle thing, but not only do some immigrants do work that UK people don't want to, but they also ensure that some of our industries, including NHS, work better than otherwise they would. "Immigrants" - as well as non-immigrants - "undercut wages" only because unscrupulous employers are willing to pay them and victimised employees accept them despite the existence of a national mimimum wage.

There are also plenty of self-employed immigrants. It has been said that there is a net economic benefit from immigrants. OK, so I'm an immigrant of sorts myself and will become a more official one should Scotland vote to leave UK, but the point is well made, I think...

He is more trustworthy than the entire Labour Party put together and at least with him you know what you are getting.

He's about as trustworthy as a bent Detective Chief Superitendent but, even if hr were indeed more trustworthy than the entire Labour Party (which he isn't), that wouldn't say much for him, would it?!

It is a great day to be an Englishman

Well, not only am I not one but there are many Englishmen and women who would disagree, including more than 16m who voted remain - that's nearly 25% of every man, woman and child in UK as a whole.

and I do not agree with the doom merchants.

Then you're unrealistically optimistic.

The referendum has been won for the Brexiters

On a very poorly structured and campaigned referendum.

and the traitor Cameron has rightly resigned.

He is not a "traitor" but should never have launched this referendum in the first place as it was entirely unnecessary and a cynical plot to try to plaster over cracks in his own party but, for that alone, I do agree that he has rightly resigned.

Maybe now, we can start to build this Country back to greatness

As long as we have plenty of good Polish brickies! But hand on a minute; which country? UK, all of which voted yesterday? Or just England?

and stop pouring billions down the throats of foreigners

But do you really suppose that UK won't buy any more from EU member states? - and at vastly inflated prices unless the currency recovers? And what about all the French (and German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Austrian, &c.) wine that UK citizens pour down their own throats, having imported it from those nations?

If the Scots want Independence, then let them have and if they want EU membership, then they can foot the bill.

If they do so and if Northern Ireland rejoins the Republic, the prospect of an United Kingdom of England and Wales will look pretty silly. Even the Queen might find heself obliged to "consider her position" just as the Remain supporting party leaders have done or are doing.

Whatever happens, UK will still be significantly affected by EU and vice versa.

What of all the expats now living in EU member states? Mightn't the return of a substantial number of them to UK give rise to an effect not dissimilar to the influx of migrants from the countries in which they now live, or indeed from elsewhere? In any case, unless there is a UKIP government following the next General Election (which mercifully isn't going to happen, since nearly 4m votes at the last General Election gained them just one of the 650 seats in the House of Commons), I don't see that any immigration reduction targets will go near being met any more than they have been under the present government.

I think that the decision has been an unnecessary and foolish one based upon very poorly structured referendum conditions that UK will come to regret unless either the current government petition about the way that the referendum's been held makes a difference (there are almost 140,000 signatures so far, all made over a few hours) or a bunch of high-powered fancy constitutional lawyers find some way to dismantle it (which looks unlikely but might not be entirely inconceivable).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Farage is a hero and there was nothing wrong with that poster.

From your remote farmhouse, you do not see or experience the troubles caused by uncontrolled immigration.

I am proud to have been part of the Brexit effort and delighted that in my area, the result was resounding.

Not even 3 hours of Schumann could ruin my day.

Now for a well earned pint, which would have ended up being 568.261485 millilitres if we had stayed in.

Thal

[indianajo]

At least giving your Yahoo class the brexit vote will result in too many Mini's to maintain factory workers. and more expensive S500's and class VI Beemers.  Also perhaps more expensive slipshod construction by natives and more retirees back home in the rain from sunny shores.
Our USA yahoos want to elect a candidiate who is likely to start a world war against all the short, brown perpetrators of the world. The use of a certain obsolete racial epithet to describe short people with brown eyes is becoming quite popular, often preceded by the adjective "sand".  Although i was personally replaced at work by short brown green card holders (temps) with master's degrees from Gujerat Univ, I don't respect the goal of the yahoos.  I'm short and the fact that my skin is boiled pink instead of brown like half my grandparents was due to a lucky squiggle of the genes, not anything fundamental.  
I'm pessimistic on the results of such a world war, in view of the demographic scarcity of pure Aryans in the modern world.  Or even in this country. I'll be watching the Repub convention in 3 weeks with great interest and hope for a miracle.
In my part of the US the state has sent out cards requesting forwarding addresses of all the previous registered voters.  Presumably persons whose address has changed will not be voting in November.  Any guesses which social class moves more often? Without updating the voter registration address?
I just wish I could capture a couple of thousand of the recently devalued pounds ($1.37 this minute), for future use on a vacation, without incurring dozens of hours of IRS paperwork for "holding a foreign account" as a result.  The pound will be back to $1.50 before I have a chance to go, I imagine. And @)#$(%*&% the pound won't work north of Hadrian's wall the next trip.  
Moving all my assets to some sunny tax haven in the Carribean is looking more and more attractive.  Unfortunately "free" medicare inside the borders of the US is becoming more and more necessary
to my preservation.  And there are no bargains in Hawaii.   Puerto Rico anybody? They have a flag, no dogs or cats unfortunately.  If you emigrate to an island small enough to need a new flag, you have to pay off the local drug dealer I'm afraid. 

[chopinlover01]

As an American, this doesn't really affect me one way or the other. Just some casual observations from across the Atlantic.
There seemed to be a lot of the closeted neo-fascists coming out to support leaving, though I can also understand the necessity of telling the establishment to piss off. In America, it's also desperately needed. But a lot of support seemed to come from the ever rising presence of neofascists in Europe, especially after the Paris and Brussels attacks, when afterwards right wing rhetoric became more and more common.
Also worth noting; much trade has been or likely will be lost. Several other heads of states who are in the EU have already made it very clear that in the event of a Brexit, far less international trade would be present.
Again, I'm not highly qualified on this. These are just some thoughts from an observer.

[ajlongspiano]

Brexit?? I mean... I like breakfast.

Best,

AJ

[thalbergmad]

But a lot of support seemed to come from the ever rising presence of neofascists in Europe, especially after the Paris and Brussels attacks, when afterwards right wing rhetoric became more and more common.

True, but if mainstream politicians did their job and listened to the concerns of ordinary working class voters instead of labelling them as bigots and racists, the far right would not even exist.

Thal

[chopinlover01]

How would you have them do this, Thal? What concerns of the middle class, had they been addressed, would've prevented neofascism from sprouting up?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

if mainstream politicians did their job and listened to the concerns of ordinary working class voters instead of labelling them as bigots and racists, the far right would not even exist.

It would exist - a little bit. There are genuine bigots and racists around, but this ridiculous apparent attitude that you can't even raise questions because you "must" be a bigot has been applied to smear a much wider part of the population and stifle debate.

What you said there, Thal, is pretty much exactly what I said earlier today, namely:

This is what happens if the political system refuses to have a serious debate on the merits or otherwise of immigration and just shouts "racist" or "bigot" at anyone questioning it

In a perverse sense this heartens me, because despite (in conventional terms) the pair of us having completely opposing political views we are able to find a mutually acceptable explanation for events.

@chopinlover -

This issue has deep-seated problems. In the 60s, when people started to come over from the Caribbean, I would say there really was a widespread racism issue, and so whilst people did worry about immigrants taking their jobs, there was a significant and pernicious attitude that people with different skin colour were inferior.

I think that attitude is much less widespread now. Sure, there is some casual racism still around, but not nearly on the same scale. However, when Blair decided to use migrant labour as a cheap(er) alternative to indigenous labour, it was done purely as a cynical attempt to pull down wage values and depress the labour market, thus getting manufacture and service industries done on the cheap. It was done with no thought whatsoever as to the social consequences, which have been significant and varied.

For some people, the only way to put this genie back in the bottle is far stricter immigration control. The level to which the EU affects our ability to do this is a matter for debate, but obviously many feel that the EU is the enemy in this regard.

If politicians wish to tackle - maturely - the issues regarding immigration, they should be assuaging people's fears about being undercut in wage terms, about their jobs going, about the ways in which incomers may (and indeed, may not) access the benefits systems. They should be making the positive case that much menial work which the indigenous population is, let's be polite, reluctant to perform is taken by immigrant labour and without it maybe certain facets of our infrastructure wouldn't run as smoothly. They should be pointing out how much the NHS is propped up by nurses from abroad, they should be attempting to address and analyse whatever concerns people come up with. A few do try, but it seems much easier to bandy names instead.

And then we have the likes of certain senior Labour politicians whom I shall steer clear of naming. These people are completely devoid of any connection to the voters they purport to represent, and are very much part of the problem. If someone is slaving their guts out to make ends meet, what could be more off-putting than to be patronised by some muesli-chewing, platitude-spouting, political correctness machine replete with the hypocrisy that tells their constituent to be politically correct whilst all the time looking down their nose at them. The Labour movement has been very sick for sometime in this regard and people have sought solace in replacements of varying quality and dubiety.

[ahinton]

Farage is a hero and there was nothing wrong with that poster.

Wrong on both counts.

From your remote farmhouse, you do not see or experience the troubles caused by uncontrolled immigration.

It's not "my" "farmhouse" and I see a great deal more than you think; many people even around here are from Eastern Europe and not all from EU member states either (think Moldova, Ukraine and even Belarus which is not even a member of Council of Europe, let alone EU).

I am proud to have been part of the Brexit effort and delighted that in my area, the result was resounding.

You prerogative (and problem)...

Not even 3 hours of Schumann could ruin my day.

Oh, come now, of course it could!

Now for a well earned pint, which would have ended up being 568.261485 millilitres if we had stayed in.

But it still is that even though a move has been made to leave; UK's not going back to all those ridiculous imperial measures even now.

And, by the way, that petition's approaching 400,000 signatures now; that's more than 1% of everyone who voted either way across the entire UK; for something that's just about how it was set up, that's rather a lot, I'd say.

Best,

Alistair

[Bob]

I found this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/4pfkrl/brexit_ask_everything_you_want_to_know_about_the/?sort=new

And saw this before.

That's where I get my news.... 

[ahinton]

True, but if mainstream politicians did their job and listened to the concerns of ordinary working class voters

Ha! Some hopes!

instead of labelling them as bigots and racists, the far right would not even exist

Of course it would; those are the very labellers! Are you seriously suggesting that people of the order of le Pen, Wilders, Farage &c. would not exist as what they are simply if others didn't label them as the racists that they quite openly are?

For what it's worth, I detest this possessively proprietorial attitude towards nations that begins with people calling them "my country". I am a Scot who lives in England. Scotland isn't "my" country and England still less so; the former is where I happen to come from and the latter when I happen to live - and that's all.

Best,

Alistair

[iansinclair]

I agree completely with Alistair -- the nut cases on the far right -- and on the far left -- would exist, whether one labels them with a title or not.  And I agree completely with Ronde.

It seems to me that what we are seeing -- in both the UK and in the USA, just in different ways -- is a real, but very poorly defined sense amongst a great many people that the powers that be just simply aren't listening.  The problem, of course, is what does one do about it?  It's all very well to suppose that social media or something like that might help, but there are at least two problems: first, since the sense is poorly defined it isn't articulated well nor is it coherent.  Second, when the members of the powers that be -- whether their initials are NF or DC or JC or HC or DT or whatever -- are convinced that they are correct, they then dismiss the rumblings of the people at large -- which then erupt in unexpected results in elections when they can't control them.  And make no mistake -- in my humble worm's eye view, most "democratic" elections are controlled by the political elites (the elections of Jeremy Corbyn to lead Labour or Hillary Clinton to lead the US Democratic party are just two obvious examples).

Sigh...

However, it would be most entertaining and, I think on the whole very pleasant, if we could somehow get the various folks who have posted on this thread together and talk; I have a notion we would find ourselves in much greater agreement and friendship than we might expect!

[chopinlover01]

For what it's worth: economics seem to not be Brexit's strong suit. Within 5 hours, the pound hit a low not seen since before WW2.

[ahinton]

It is surely noteworthy that Parliament has actually accepted a petition entitled EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum and which runs

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum"

See https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 .

I would not have expected it to do this in the first place had it been based upon a wholly invalid premise. It is clearly being taken seriously; at last glance, it was steadily approaching three quarters of a million signatures; this tally appears at the moment to be rising by some 15,000 every 10 minutes and has been achieved over a mere 24 hours or so. Should that momentum be maintained, I estimate that, by some time later today, the number of signatories might come to exceed the difference between the number of those who voted Leave and the number of those who voted Remain, which would seem to create something of a perplexing question mark in itself; it must surely be an indicator of widespread public discontent and a map that can be viewed on the aforementioned website dispays that the sigatories are from every constituency in the country.

What if anything might arise as a consequence I do not know, but it will be interesting to see whether it does ultimately have some practical impact, perhaps including the encouragement of specialist lawyers to protest that the manner in which so serious a referendum was held might be judged unconstitutional.

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It is surely noteworthy that Parliament has actually accepted a petition entitled EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum and which runs

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum"

See https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 .

Is it not the case that they are obligated to at least discuss it (or any other petition) once 100k signatures are reached?

For the record, I completely disagree with such a petition. If we are going to live in a democracy, we should respect its decisions, even when we don't like them. All the above conditions and rules should have been discussed before the event, not used as a retrospective attempt to cavil and subvert the decision. Very wrong indeed.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It seems to me that what we are seeing -- in both the UK and in the USA, just in different ways -- is a real, but very poorly defined sense amongst a great many people that the powers that be just simply aren't listening. 

...

And make no mistake -- in my humble worm's eye view, most "democratic" elections are controlled by the political elites (the elections of Jeremy Corbyn to lead Labour or Hillary Clinton to lead the US Democratic party are just two obvious examples).

Yes, I totally agree with the first statement.

Re Corbyn, I think you are wrong. He is absolutely the person the Labour Party hierarchy didn't want. He's far too left-wing for them, and not particularly media-friendly. He's probably the person the Tory Party hierarchy wanted, however.. He was elected largely on a wave of party member populism, and through the approval and re-emergence of the more radical wing of the party which had largely gone into hiding under Blair. Make no mistake, the majority of Labour MPs want rid of him asap; the rank and file membership may feel differently.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Are you seriously suggesting that people of the order of le Pen, Wilders, Farage &c. would not exist as what they are simply if others didn't label them as the racists that they quite openly are?

I hope you are not saying that all the followers of the above are racists.

I don't think that is the case at all. For sure, their parties are happy to play on racial tensions, but it's more complex than that. All of the above are discussing issues the political elite have deemed undiscussable - issues which we need to be discussing. I'm sure all of the parties to which you allude are a repository for racism - but that doesn't necessarily make the party racist, nor all of those who follow them. Their existence is a symptom of the failure of the political mainstream. The NF, Combat 13: these are racist organisations.

Racism is having repeatedly two men of different races in a job interview and always giving the job to the man of one specific race (and, regrettably, often considerably worse acts). Saying "I'm worried that (x person of a different race) is going to take my job" is not racism per se. In some cases, it may be motivated by racism, but in many cases it isn't.

[Bob]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/world-s-400-richest-people-lose-127-billion-on-brexit-chart


I know I'm going to keep my eyes open for a random billion dollars on the ground for a while now.  There are 127 out there.... If I found just one...

[thalbergmad]

I don't think that is the case at all. For sure, their parties are happy to play on racial tensions, but it's more complex than that. All of the above are discussing issues the political elite have deemed undiscussable - issues which we need to be discussing. I'm sure all of the parties to which you allude are a repository for racism - but that doesn't necessarily make the party racist, nor all of those who follow them. Their existence is a symptom of the failure of the political mainstream.

Far right parties only thrive when mainstream parties don't listen, so I agree completely with your post above. The word racist is thrown around so carelessly nowadays that the word has almost no meaning.

Remain would have had a clear victory if the Labour Party had not abandoned the white working class of the North that historically it had supported. Instead, it ignored their concerns of uncontrolled immigration and branded those who spoke out as racist. Gordon Brown take note.

The talk of another referendum is moronic and it will never happen. If the Remain camp had won, it would be laughed at and that is exactly how it should be treated now. Likewise, another Scottish Independence vote is just as undemocratic. The Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and the UK has voted to leave the EU. End of.

Thal

[iansinclair]

... Likewise, another Scottish Independence vote is just as undemocratic. The Scottish people voted to stay in the UK and the UK has voted to leave the EU. End of.

Thal

Tell that to the Sturgeon.  I've always felt there was something fishy about the SNP anyway...

[hardy_practice]

Can we now have a referendum to leave Scotland?  (and Northern Ireland)

[thalbergmad]

Tell that to the Sturgeon.  I've always felt there was something fishy about the SNP anyway...

She is in charge of a small Country that cannot stand alone. It either has to be part of the UK, or part of the EU and Scotland is net beneficiaries of both. She acts like some kind of retarded modern day William Wallace but she has a very weak hand. Apart from Whisky, battered mars bars, sporrens and 3 trillion midges, Scotland does not have a great deal of marketability.

Thal

[iansinclair]

She is in charge of a small Country that cannot stand alone. It either has to be part of the UK, or part of the EU and Scotland is net beneficiaries of both. She acts like some kind of retarded modern day William Wallace but she has a very weak hand. Apart from Whisky, battered mars bars, sporrens and 3 trillion midges, Scotland does not have a great deal of marketability.

Thal

You don't like deep fired Mars bars?  Neither do I...

Reality does not intrude into the deliberations of the SNP...

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I would just like to state that I support Scottish independence more strongly than any other political position I have ever voted for. The SNP have run a consistently competent administration; there are several policies of theirs which I disagree with, but their success in appropriating the centre-left has been quite remarkable and did not happen by chance. I want Scotland to take charge of her own political destiny: I am sick and tired of being run by governments I would never vote for in a million years. There is a complete political disconnect between the directions England and Scotland are moving in and the sooner we Scotland can take full control of its own finances the better. If Scotland really was the fiscal basket-case some would have us believe, we would have been actively encouraged to leave, rather than having every scaremongering story imaginable thrown at us in 2014.

[iansinclair]

Ronde -- don't get me wrong.  I think that the SNP is doing a better job of running Scotland than Westminster ever did -- or could.  Where I have a problem - with both of them! -- is that the outlying regions don't get heard.  There have been huge problems with the ferry contracts, for instance.  There are problems with health care provision.  There are problems with mobile telephone connectivity.  And so on.  The central belt?  Doing well, and well responded to.  But out in the more rural regions?  Not so much... (some of my relatives, up near Cape Wrath, don't even have bus service any more since the postal bus went away... trivial, but -- there it is).

My main concern about Scottish independence is I can't get the arithmetic to work.  As Thal said -- though I think he was exaggerating -- we (I'm using we referring to my relatives, mostly on Mainland Orkney) don't have a whole lot going for us, economically, and with the oil industry in disarray, we have even less.  Which raises in my mind at least, where is the money going to come from?  The last thing I would want would be to be dependent on the whimsy of the EU.  Westminster is bad enough.

[Bob]

Are they doing a second vote?  I saw something about getting signatures to do another vote.

[thalbergmad]

Are they doing a second vote?  I saw something about getting signatures to do another vote.

There has been a petition signed by over 2 million people for another EU referendum. The argument for this is that the result was close (which it was) and that supposedly there are a lot of people who voted out who now regret their decision, which is possible, but more than likely it is lefty sour grapes.

It will not happen.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

My main concern about Scottish independence is I can't get the arithmetic to work. 

I love Scotland and its people. I have visited everywhere from Gretna to Muckle Flugga and from Cape Wrath to St Kilda and it the most beautiful place on Earth, but i don't think the arithmatic does add up.

I also don't think that should Scotland vote for independance it would pass the tests required to re-enter the EU.

I am all for Nationalism, but realism is more important.

Thal

[chopinlover01]

Thal, with all due respect, your rhetoric is starting to sound more and more like the far right idiots in the U.S. and their leader, Donald Trump.
Nationalism is just stupid. It's essentially the idea of faith as made famous by religion and applying it to your nation. There are good and bad things about all nations; Britain is no exception. Britain helped develop a lot of the world and its technologies, but there were also the unfortunate episodes of imperialism and colonization in the 19th century which I could do without.

[thalbergmad]

Hopefully, i am not just starting to sound like a far right idiot as i have been one for about 35 years.

Trump is an even bigger far right idiot, but what i said in a post above applies to the US as well as the UK. If mainstream politicians did their job properly, he would cease to exist. He may well be a horrible creature, but to deny he has points that appeal to millions of Americans would be moronic.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

.

I also don't think that should Scotland vote for independance it would pass the tests required to re-enter the EU.

You cannot in all seriousness argue this - whilst presumably being concerned about the likes of Turkey and sundry Eastern European minnow states entering the EU?

Even the Treasury stats put out during the referendum regarding Scotland's wealth don't suggest a problem. Quite amusingly, they suggested the opposite. I think the specific quote was that Scotland's GDP ranking was lower than Pakistan - if one did the obvious thing and divided GDP by population to get GDP per capita, the Scottish figure was actually higher than the UK one. (I do concede that GDP per capita can produce specious results as a measure of prosperity, but it was them who brought GDP into it in the first place..)

Oil was only about 15% of the Scottish economy. Last recent figures I saw stated only a sub-1% contraction in this economy despite the oil price fall, which is a temporary situation brought about by the consequences of the Saudis playing geopolitics. (There has also been considerable investment in North Sea oilfields recently, so presumably those in the know also consider it a temporary situation.) It is reasonable, imo, to assume that the oil issue has not been as catastrophic as some would like because reduced oil prices etc result in greater viability in other areas (lower transport costs etc). Of course it is bad news for those working in the sector.

@ian - Yes, these are legit issues. i don't know enough about the ferry scenario to comment especially educatedly, but was it not the case that there were problems partly caused because of EU tendering law?

This might be an interesting talking point - https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Anyway, this has now become depressingly like a large part of my social media feed.  

[indianajo]

I'd hate to see Scotland conquered by Pakistan.  That is a nuclear power, Scotland is not.  Scotland has oil, Pakistan does not.
This whole thing needs a breath of reality.  UK doesn't have a constitution, who said a referendum was binding?  Where is the house of Lords when you need them?
You need a good case of regis ex machina:  The good sensible queen states a case and sends everybody involved in the fight to the penalty box for two quarters.  Maybe the Article 50 letter doesn't get sent.  The government that made this whole nightmare up has fallen already, maybe you don't need to wait until October to throw him out.  The 2 million and counting petition is a good start.  
And let the next government take care of the ordinary blokes instead of ignoring them.  I've been publishing all sorts of helpful suggestions for solving our curse of most working part time in retail/fast food at poverty wages.  Unfortunately nobody is reading.  Some nutter with television exposure has decided we need to build a wall, which is a short, pithy slogan,  and just as stupid as UK independence.  If those EU regulations are so stupid, just stop obeying them.  What's the EU going to do, invade?  Germany spends about 1% of its income on defense.  
You need all those Poles doing the building.  The supply of dodgy builder jokes has dried up since the Poles took over that industry.  Since the illegal Mexicans went home in 2009, we're experiencing our own new house shortage. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I'd hate to see Scotland conquered by Pakistan.  That is a nuclear power, Scotland is not.  Scotland has oil, Pakistan does not.
This whole thing needs a breath of reality.  UK doesn't have a constitution, who said a referendum was binding?  Where is the house of Lords when you need them?
You need a good case of regis ex machina:  The good sensible queen states a case and sends everybody to the penalty box for two quarters. 

Um, we sort of are a nuclear power (whilst remaining part of the UK). Faslane? Admittedly we're really only storing Trident for the US.

I don't think the referendum is legally binding. It would be a brave politician who over-rode it though. The Queen is supposed to be apolitical.

This is going to run and run..

[chopinlover01]

Hopefully, i am not just starting to sound like a far right idiot as i have been one for about 35 years.

Trump is an even bigger far right idiot, but what i said in a post above applies to the US as well as the UK. If mainstream politicians did their job properly, he would cease to exist. He may well be a horrible creature, but to deny he has points that appeal to millions of Americans would be moronic.

Thal

The points you speak of are really just the level of discontent with the establishment, of which he has been a proud member.
The only thing Trump has shown is that he's going to be an authoritarian. When has that ever gone well?
With respect to Farage, he seems to basically be the UK equivalent of Trump. And here I thought the UK was relatively sane..

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Farage is just a s**t-stirrer who has been given a disproportionate amount of exposure. Trump is a whole lot worse, not least because he seems to have spent much of his entire adult life surrounded by sycophants. He is practically asking to be assassinated.