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Topic: brexit?!!?  (Read 54163 times)

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #500 on: August 03, 2016, 01:13:09 PM
Here's what this debate is all about: https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470229774&sr=8-1&keywords=white+trash

Yes, whether in the US (Trump vs the reasonable) or UK (brexit vs the reasonable).
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #501 on: August 03, 2016, 03:22:26 PM
Here's what this debate is all about: https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470229774&sr=8-1&keywords=white+trash

Yes, whether in the US (Trump vs the reasonable) or UK (brexit vs the reasonable).
I do not think that this is a helpful comparison beyond the fact of the latter having (been) likewise turned into one side vs the reasonable and looking ever more like that since the referendum result was declared.

It's also more complex than the US one, embracing issues including but not limited to

1. whether there was an identifable need for the UK/EU in/out matter to be addressed in the first place?

2. who clamoured for it to be addressed and how?

3. whether it should in any case have been addressed by way of referendum?

4. whether the only political party that promised a referendum on it should instead have opted to deal with it via the usual Parliamentary channels?

5. what might have happened to the UK/EU in/out matter had that party lost the election?

6. why the government of the day failed to notify the electorate before the campaign that the referendum outcome would not be legally binding upon Parliament?

7. why no advance planning was put in place in the event of a Brexit outcome?

8. the extent to which lies were put forward by both sides to risk distorting voters' decisions?

9. why scant consideration was given to the fact that officialdom in all 28 EU member states did not wish UK to leave?

10. why the entire matter was run on an unduly Anglocentric basis without due consideration of how to deal with the outcome should all four constituent parts of UK not all generate the same outcome?

11. why scant consideration was given to the length of time Brexit would take to implement and the cost involved in seeing it through?

12. why any referendum outcome could be considered as having been reached "democratically" to the extent of being representative of "the will of the people" when the referendum conditions did not include reasonable turnout or majority minima and, in the event, whilst turnout was fairly good, the"winning" side comprised a mere 37% of the electorate, whihc is way short of an overall majority?

13. why government did not take into account the vulnerability of the referendum, its conduct and its outcome to subsequent bona fide legal challenge s is indeed now the case on several fronts?

That "baker's dozen" will do for starters but is, I think, more than suficient to illustrate the point.

It seems to me that the only two commonalities between the possible Trump presidency issue and that of the UK/EU in/out one are as follows.

Firstly, the matter of immigration and public attitudes to it. However, in each case these have been either exaggerated or misrepresented or both. Trump's clamoured for a bar on all Muslims entering US should he become President but has so far said nothing about any Muslims already living and working there. He wants to keep the Mexicans out but has been tight-lipped not only about those already living and working there but also about his nation's other immediate neighbours the Canadians (whose two borders with US are nevertheless vastly longer in total than the one with Mexico).

Secondly, the fact that the plethora of inconsistencies and absurdities in what passes for Trump's manifesto and which make it about as much of an omnishambles as the UK/EU referendum and post-referendum situation.

Beyond that, they are two largely independent issues with two largely separate beneficiaries or victims.

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Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #502 on: August 03, 2016, 06:39:47 PM
Good Lord ::)

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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #503 on: August 03, 2016, 06:53:25 PM

Firstly, the matter of immigration and public attitudes to it. 
I'd say that nails it.  As they (could possibly say) 'A local country for local people.'
Secondly, the fact that the plethora of inconsistencies and absurdities in what passes for Trump's manifesto and which make it about as much of an omnishambles as the UK/EU referendum and post-referendum situation.


Yeh, that too.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #504 on: August 03, 2016, 08:21:27 PM
Good Lord ::)
Have you gone all religious all of a sudden? Has this been caused by listening to J. S. Bach?

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Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #505 on: August 03, 2016, 08:24:47 PM
I'd say that nails it.  As they (could possibly say) 'A local country for local people.'Yeh, that too.
Locality is global as well as it might be perceived as what's confined to whatever happens to be "located" near to anyone. What is or can possibly be "a local country"? "Local" simply means near to where whoever mentions it happens to be, but we're all interconnected now so, to that extent, "local" means local to pretty much everyone else on earth.

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Alistair
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #506 on: August 03, 2016, 11:15:07 PM
Local as in:

 
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #507 on: August 12, 2016, 04:20:19 PM
Here's another quite interesting one with (some) quite interesting responses - https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/brexit-enough-david-brent-this-is-serious/ .

Far too many obdurate Leave supporters can't be bothered even now to give thought to any, let alone all, of the overwhelming complexities (of which only some are covered here) into which Brexit would take UK.

The sheer cost of conducting all the negotiations over unlimited numbers of years and of the administrative and legal work required to see it through could alone risk eventually bankrupting an UK whose currency continues to take a battering against all other major currencies (not just the Euro) as indeed it has done since the referendum outcome was announced 7 weeks ago; this is one of the inevitable consequences to which no one seems to have considered it worth taking the trouble to investigate before the referendum campaign was launched, but then no one seems to have thought it worth bothering to plan in advance for the possibility of for Brexit in any other ways either, so at least there's some consistency of approach here, however shamefully careless and incompetent.

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Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #508 on: August 12, 2016, 05:42:59 PM
Yawn
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #509 on: August 12, 2016, 08:23:03 PM
Yawn
I suspect that very many people will get tired of all of this if they're not already - but "we are where we are" (as some Leavers would have us believe, despite not having any more clue than anyone else where that might be - and tiresomely akin to the equally meaningless "Brexit means Brexit", aka "no one knows wha Brexit means) and none of it's going away, so yawns are on notice.

"Get used to it!" / "get on with it!" / "move on!"; but, as the writer rightly asks, "get used to" what? / "get on with" what / "move on" to what?

There's serious animosity growing in certain EU member states about UK's current position (whatever that might be), especially in France. More important than any of that, however, is that UK's "decision" has thrown so many spanners into so many works (without the benefit of due forward planning arrangements by UK to deal with the outcome thereof) that UK might even end up destroying not only itself but the remainder of EU along with it, so let's look forward to fights between US, Russia and China as to which of them ultimately assumes ownership of whatever UK and/or EU might end up being at any given time.

I somehow think that there may come a time when your yawning might stop.

In his willingness to gamble away UK's future (such as it might otherwise have been), Dave arguably has more to answer for than has any UK Prime Minister since Sir Winston Churchill - no, since Neville Chamberlain...

And while on the subject of Muslim radicalisation (to which you have previously referred in this thread, for all that it's not really german thereto), you might have noticed all the talk about how this does not have to be done by Muslims coming to UK or members of UK's population travelling to Syria, Iraq or wherever else; it's best and most cheaply accomplished over the internet, so that any resulting terrorism will be home-grown (just as IS wants and advocates); no good trying to stop Muslims coming to any country under those circumstances, so what would you seek to have done about that? Close down access to the internet? I hope not, because then no one would be able to read your posts!

Best,

Alistair
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Offline fleetfingers

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #510 on: August 12, 2016, 08:41:08 PM
The points you speak of are really just the level of discontent with the establishment, of which he has been a proud member.

Trump hasn't served as a politician before, so how can he be a member of "the establishment" when it comes to discontented constituents? He's considered an outsider.

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #511 on: August 12, 2016, 09:44:40 PM
Trump hasn't served as a politician before, so how can he be a member of "the establishment" when it comes to discontented constituents? He's considered an outsider.
True as this undoubtedly is, what's it got to do with Brexit?

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Alistair
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Offline fleetfingers

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #512 on: August 12, 2016, 10:09:46 PM
True as this undoubtedly is, what's it got to do with Brexit?

Best,

Alistair

Oops, sorry. Looking again, I can see that I was reading from the beginning of this thread. That was over a month ago, so I apologize, as the conversation seems to have moved on.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #513 on: August 13, 2016, 04:32:51 PM
In his willingness to gamble away UK's future (such as it might otherwise have been), Dave arguably has more to answer for than has any UK Prime Minister since Sir Winston Churchill - no, since Neville Chamberlain...

If you really think that Dave has more to answer for than Bliar, you have reached such heights of delusion that i fear any further discourse between us would be pointless.

Giving the people a chance to decide their future was a bold and right decision. Not making plans if he lost was dumb, but he was not alone in thinking he could persuade the electorate.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #514 on: August 13, 2016, 08:40:14 PM
If you really think that Dave has more to answer for than Bliar, you have reached such heights of delusion that i fear any further discourse between us would be pointless.
If I did think that, I would of course agree with what you say - but I don't. Dave has blithely essayed to gamble with UK's future and has lost but, although there's absolutely no excuse for an UK Prme Minister to do this, I do at least accept that, however stupidly, he believed that he could get away with this without the outcome risking untold damage to UK; that's still a very severe indictment indeed. Bliar's record is worse, in that he didn't even take a stupid gamble and what he did was way more serious even than what Dave was allowed to try to do. Even Dave's utter folly was thus no match for Bliar's arrogance.

Giving the people a chance to decide their future was a bold and right decision.
But this is not what's happened. Parliament instead said to itself "sod it, we can't be bothered to deal with this, so we'll persuade the electorate that vote us into our positions and pay for us to occupy them decide and we'll uphold what they decide even though we're not legally obliged to do so"; how democratic and how responsible is that, especially given that, in subcontracting this immense responsibility, it imposed no minimum turnout or majority?

Not making plans if he lost was dumb, but he was not alone in thinking he could persuade the electorate.
No, of course he wasn't; he thought that he could at least take his party with him. That said, at the time that his party decided to promise this referendum (as no other party did), it was in coalition and with no certainty of winning the election, so what price that? All political parties, not just the Tories, should have been hatching plans in the event of a Brexit vote, but none of them did - and now, 7 weeks after the result of this opinion poll (for it's no more than that) has been announced, nothing has been done about it; now might that just possibly be because not only were no advance plans made but also that no one knows what to do even now and is therefore making every possible effort to avoid committing to any kinds of decision?

Notwithstanding the way in which I compared Bliar's legacy unfavourably to Dave's, I do fear that, unless someone takes charge and sorts this unholy mess out, the outcome for UK could be vastly worse that what Bliar left us with.

Consider just this nonsense of "get over it", "move on" and all that when, as the article rightly points out, no one on either side of the argument has the faintest idea what to "get over" or how, still less from what to "move on".

In all this wholly unnecessary uncertainty, the one certain thing seems to be that many disgruntled EU states are increasingly gunning for UK to get the worst possible deal from any negotiations that would ensue should it press that button and invoke Article 50; can anyone blame them, given that not one leader of the 28 EU member states wanted UK to leave? I don't think so!

37% of the UK electorate want to take it into uncharted waters with no plan as to what to do once there. Two out of the four constituent parts of UK, as well as all but one of its cities, want UK to remain part of EU. Where's the "democracy" in honouring the referendum outcome?

Those who bleat and bray about "taking their country back" need to stand back for a moment and consider whether there will ultimately be any country to "take back" in the first place; personally, I have my doubts.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline georgey

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #515 on: August 13, 2016, 09:52:47 PM
.

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #516 on: August 14, 2016, 04:38:00 AM
.
Overlong but uninformative and unenlightening post.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #517 on: August 19, 2016, 03:56:12 PM
As nothing continues to happen to work towards enacting Brexit 8 weeks after the referendum result was declared, here, as a possible indicator of the length of time in which this silence might continue, is a piece that I just read in Connexion (a subscription paper, so I reproduce the text here in extenso):

"Brexit talks 'may start end of 2017’
August 15, 2016

UK PRIME Minister Theresa May might put off invoking article 50 – the formal start of Brexit negotiations – until the end of 2017 according to the British press.

The Sunday Times claims ministers have warned senior officials in the City of London that the process is likely to be postponed for more than a year, meaning the Brexit would not come into force until at least two years later at the end of 2019.

This is said to be because the ministerial teams charged with the negotiations at the new ministries for Brexit and for international trade and not ready to start negotiating yet and the ministries are understaffed.

It is thought that the French presidential elections, due in May 2017, and the German federal ones in September 2017 may also be a factor in May wishing to put off the start of official Brexit talks.

Brussels spokespeople say that the commission would prefer the process to get under way quickly, however the official rules leave it to the UK to make the first move.

In the meantime a former French agriculture minister and the EU commissioner for the single market, Michel Barnier, has been nominated as the chief negotiator on the EU side."

Should that turn out to be correct, we'll be into the next decade before the negotiations are completed and another UK General Election will in any case be due early in 2020 if it's not already been held before then (and this will likely cause further delays). It is indeed up to UK to make the first move, but whether there's any externally imposable deadline by which it is obliged to do so seems uncertain, though by no means as much so as everything else will be by then if Brexit remains in limbo.

Whilst many Remainers are still calling for Parliament to debate and vote on it in both houses before deciding whether (never mind when) to invoke Article 50, if it doesn't have to do either that or act in accordance with the referendum result (on the basis of some perceived obligation to "honour" the "will of the people" and all that nonsense), it could, I suppose, ultimately put the skids under Bexit simply by sitting on its hands indefinitely and doing nothing about it for as long as it can get away with such inaction, in the full knowledge that, should such disinclination to act raise sufficient hackles as to give rise to an otherwise premature General Election, the outcome of that might well put Brexit to bed even more effectively and decisively than continued prevarication, especially if Smith will have secured the Labour leadership and Labour wins (not that the latter seems likely)...

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #518 on: August 20, 2016, 07:37:20 AM
The Tories should hold an election now in which they would certainly increase their majority and possibly destroy the lefties for a generation. The piss pathetic Labour Party no longer represents Mr Average and is the party for Mr Delusional.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #519 on: August 20, 2016, 09:34:13 AM
The Tories should hold an election now in which they would certainly increase their majority and possibly destroy the lefties for a generation. The piss pathetic Labour Party no longer represents Mr Average and is the party for Mr Delusional.
I have no more idea whom the present Labour Party represents than you do, but it's also worth bearing in mind that, like many Labour MPs, many Tory ones voted for UK to remain within EU, often contrary to the voting decisions of a majority of their constituents; accordingly, it might well be that the Tories would not, after all, increase their majority were a General Election to be held shortly, because some of those who voted Tory previously might consider that their Tory MPs do not represent them, at least in terms of the UK/EU in/out issue.

There seems in any case to be as little obvious will on the part of the Tory Party to hold a General Election in the foreseeable future than there is evidence that it has any intention to invoke Article 50 any time soon, despite the burgeoning uncertainty and instability that the latter determined inaction is bound to give rise.

If the report from which I quoted is true and that the present Tory government has no intention of onvoking Article 50 at least until early 2018 or even later, it is hardly unreasonable to suspect that its deliberately tacit agenda to continue to do nothing about driving the Brexit truck might even have overtaken the possibility of holding Parliamentary debate and vote on it as a vehicle for avoiding the issue for long enough to push it away permanently; I cannot be sure of this, of course, but it would not surprise me.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #520 on: August 20, 2016, 04:42:33 PM
It would not surprise me either, but this is something that is not going away nor is it likely to be brushed under the carpet and forgotten about. It is simply too important.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #521 on: August 21, 2016, 08:13:12 AM
It would not surprise me either, but this is something that is not going away nor is it likely to be brushed under the carpet and forgotten about. It is simply too important.
Well, something needs to give at some point, whatever it "may" be, otherwise UK will increasingly look like a cross between a laughing stock and an international irritant.

I hope that Dave's proud of himself...

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Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #522 on: August 21, 2016, 03:30:41 PM
His crime was to fail in reducing immigration, not allowing a referendum which he promised.

The incredible result at the Rio Olympics has filled me full of pride and show just what this great Country can achieve. The sooner we are disentangled from the EU losers, the better.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #523 on: August 21, 2016, 05:26:19 PM
His crime was to fail in reducing immigration, not allowing a referendum which he promised.
That's not a crime; it's a near impossibility - but we're talking Brexit here, not immigration and the latter is but a small (though not unimportant important) part of the former.

The incredible result at the Rio Olympics has filled me full of pride and show just what this great Country can achieve. The sooner we are disentangled from the EU losers, the better.
The results in Rio are indeed remarkable. They don't, however, make me feel "proud" of anything except the astonishing successes of the sportspersons who have achieved them; they're not about to turn around UK's economy, nor do they or indeed can they impact directly upon people's views on UK's EU membership, be they in support of Remain or Leave.

We will never be completely "disentangled" from EU because we will remain a part of it even after Brexit, should that happen, until and unless EU itself ultimately disintegrates; we will continue to try to do business with the other 27 member states if they'll let us and if we can make it work.

I hope, however, that good sense will prevail and UK's government eitgher debates and votes on the matter or simply does nothing, in either case with the ultimate result that Brexit is kicked into the long grass where it belongs (although I'll be sorry for the grass).

Best,

Alistair
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #524 on: August 21, 2016, 11:07:39 PM
God, are we STILL on about this?

Sorry, I get that it's an important issue, but... Damn.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #525 on: August 22, 2016, 12:02:08 AM
God, are we STILL on about this?

Sorry, I get that it's an important issue, but... Damn.

Amen...
Ian

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #526 on: August 22, 2016, 12:30:19 AM
Let's at least have some time to let things play out and see how things have gone.
Have another topic on this a year from now or so.

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #527 on: August 22, 2016, 05:43:41 AM
Let's at least have some time to let things play out and see how things have gone.
Have another topic on this a year from now or so.
I think that this is precisely what's happening now; UK's government appears to be playing for as much time as it can get, for reasons (if any) best known to itself.

"Another topic"? Do you not actually mean resume this topic a year or so hence? If so, that would mean ignoring (or at least not writing about or reacting to) the petition debate in a fortnight's time or to the conduct and outcome of any of the impending legal challenges; it would also mean taking no notice of moves that the UK government might make (if any) towards invoking Article 50.

It is indeed an important issue, not only for UK's future but for that of the entire EU and beyond, for a variety or reasons including but by no means limited to those below.

Firstly, Brexit would require almost every law passed or revoked in UK for more than 40 years to be picked apart and rewritten - and new lawmaking cannot be held up while this enormous task is undertaken.

Secondly, the reaction of industry in UK will be crucial to its future, as if sufficient operations relocate from UK to other areas, the cost to UK's economy could be immense (and mere indecisiveness, uncertainty and instability alone could encourage employers to up sticks and leave UK).

Thirdly, the sheer cost of Brexit (including the administrative cost) could well paralyse UK, especially if its economy falters during what is likely to be an interminable transition period.

Fourthly, if Brexit encourages some other EU member states to considering severing their ties with EU, considerable strain would thereby be imposed on that institution which it might ultimately be unable to bear and, if the entire edifice eventually collapses as a consequence, every European country will suffer and Europe would likely deteriorate to something not unakin to a post-WWII situation.

Fifthly, the risk of disintegration of UK into its constituent parts (or at least the severance from it of Scotland, NI and even possibly London / other large Remain supporting cities) cannot be dismissed out of hand and the risks attaching to this would not be inconsiderable.

Lastly, there has already been much talk within the remainder of EU about ensuring that Brexit negotiations be made as tough as possible for UK, to its obvious disadvantage - and it is not even clear among Leavers whether UK should remain within the single European market once it has left EU or whether it should instead leave that as well.

There are many other considerations besides the half dozen above but, in the light of these along, it is hardly any wonder that a pall of near silence has fallen on what's to happen (or not) about Brexit).

Best,

Alistair
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #528 on: August 22, 2016, 07:14:36 AM
Alistair, at no point in this thread have I disagreed with you.
Mostly because I, along with presumably most of the rest of piano street, tuned out at around page 4 or 5... I'll be honest, I tried to go to 6.
But 11 pages on this? The referendum (though of course not legally binding) was held; the UK will be dealing with it however it happens.
Nobody is going to change at all on this issue. We're just spinning our wheels at this point.
Let's move on to something else, please.

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #529 on: August 22, 2016, 07:51:15 AM
Alistair, at no point in this thread have I disagreed with you.
Mostly because I, along with presumably most of the rest of piano street, tuned out at around page 4 or 5... I'll be honest, I tried to go to 6.
But 11 pages on this? The referendum (though of course not legally binding) was held; the UK will be dealing with it however it happens.
Nobody is going to change at all on this issue. We're just spinning our wheels at this point.
Let's move on to something else, please.
You don't have to read or participate in this or any other thread if you would rather not do so.

I don't know where you are based but, if it's outside Europe, the issue will likely have less impact upon you than it would if you're based within Europe, especially if you're in UK.

When you say that "nobody is going to change at all on this issue", what exactly do you mean? If the referendum outcome is not seen through for any reason - or if there's a second referendum (which I doubt) - there will be "changes" of one kind or another; either voters will vote differently to the way that they did first time around or government will ignore the referendum outcome and hold a debate that might result in an overturn of that outcome - either of these will represent some kind of "change".

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #530 on: August 22, 2016, 11:47:18 AM
bollox ;D
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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #531 on: August 22, 2016, 11:55:48 AM
bollox ;D
lol.
I searched said reply ^,  and was pleasantly surprised there are 3 pages of 'hit' search results for the term here on PSF.  
All is well w/ the world.  ;D

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #532 on: August 22, 2016, 04:01:22 PM
bollox
I don't think that the government is likely either to schedule a Parliamentary debate and vote on those in both houses of Parliament or hold a referendum on them although, should they ever decide to do the latter, I suspect that the vast majority of voters would select Remain, not least since Leave would be a very painful prospect indeed; I'm not sure how the Single Market would figure here, however, since "bollox" customarily go around in pairs.

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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #533 on: August 22, 2016, 05:12:27 PM
lol.
I searched said reply ^,  and was pleasantly surprised there are 3 pages of 'hit' search results for the term here on PSF.  
All is well w/ the world.  ;D

HAHA, it appears i use it frequently.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #534 on: August 22, 2016, 08:54:36 PM
HAHA, it appears i use it frequently
Well, please feel free to use whatever you want to use with whatever frequency you think you might want to use it and for whatever perceived purpose and/or context, but it makes no difference either to the facts or to the lack thereof...

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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #535 on: August 31, 2016, 05:14:08 PM
Excellent news that Theresa May has been advised that she has the authority to trigger Article 50 without further Parliament interference. Now we can dispense with all those silly legal challenges and start to untangle ourselves from the pathetic EU.

Those tossers could not ever get a trade agreement with USA. We will succeed where they have failed.

Also good news that the Scottish income from the North Sea was miles less than expected. Lets see silly little Sturgeon trying to stay in the EU now. They will be more in need of handouts than ever.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #536 on: August 31, 2016, 09:55:06 PM
Excellent news that Theresa May has been advised that she has the authority to trigger Article 50 without further Parliament interference. Now we can dispense with all those silly legal challenges and start to untangle ourselves from the pathetic EU.
Er - no. Ms May knew that already, but she;s done nothing about it and, if and when she does, decades of wrangling will ensue. Have you seen evidence that all the legal challenges have suddenly been dropped? I haven't. Please let us know where you've found information on this.

Those tossers could not ever get a trade agreement with USA. We will succeed where they have failed.
If Trump gets in over there do you suppose that anyone will get one that could work?

Also good news that the Scottish income from the North Sea was miles less than expected. Lets see silly little Sturgeon trying to stay in the EU now. They will be more in need of handouts than ever.
Everyone needs handouts; no nation is without indebtedness. Do you suppose that Scotland will be anything other than a drain on the rest of UK if it stays within it? It doesn't sound as though you do!

The great thing is that May doesn't even have to put the EU issue to the vote in both houses of Parliament (although she undoubtedly should if it's to be give due consideration); the referendum - the opinion poll as it was (no more, no less) - is not legally binding upon Parliament, so she could just ignore it altogether and do nothing. If she did that and the public outcry that resulted from her determined inaction (if indeed it arose) forced a General Election, do you suppose that the present government would be ousted, especially with the Labour Party being in the disarray that it is right now? If not, nothing would happen; if so, nothing would still happen.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #537 on: September 01, 2016, 05:05:53 AM
If Trump gets in over there do you suppose that anyone will get one that could work?
Of course they will; Trump isn't going to change anything with free trade, despite what he has said.
He claims to be against free trade deals like the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) but he in all actuality benefits from the majority of them.
Besides, as we found out from the internal memos to John Kasich (the person he originally wanted for VP), he isn't interested in governing. He told the aforementioned Kasich that he could be "the most powerful VP in history"; read: he isn't interested in governing, only being elected.
If Clinton wins, she'll no doubt make a couple minor revision to the free trade deals proposed and then call it good.
I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, and I'm not sure how serious you were with that line, but do know that the U.S. isn't going anywhere in terms of world trade (unless Obama comes to his senses and doesn't sign the disastrous TPP agreement).

Offline georgey

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #538 on: September 01, 2016, 05:30:02 AM
Congratulations to Mjames for starting one of the most popular threads in a while not including ones like “What is on your mind” and “What are you listening to”.  It is doing great with 537 posts but it lacks in number of views.  Example:  “Attrative pianists” has a little more posts than this thread but has 135 views per post when this thread only has about 10 views per post.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/economy/trade

Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #539 on: September 01, 2016, 06:05:44 AM
Of course they will; Trump isn't going to change anything with free trade, despite what he has said.
He claims to be against free trade deals like the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) but he in all actuality benefits from the majority of them.
Besides, as we found out from the internal memos to John Kasich (the person he originally wanted for VP), he isn't interested in governing. He told the aforementioned Kasich that he could be "the most powerful VP in history"; read: he isn't interested in governing, only being elected.
If Clinton wins, she'll no doubt make a couple minor revision to the free trade deals proposed and then call it good.
I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, and I'm not sure how serious you were with that line, but do know that the U.S. isn't going anywhere in terms of world trade (unless Obama comes to his senses and doesn't sign the disastrous TPP agreement).
I agree about TPP. As to Trump, my point was that his presidency, should it commence, will give rise to uncertainties and instabilities just as is UK's indecision about Brexit and how, when and whether to start the procedures necessary to open the doors to the rooms with the negotiating tables.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #540 on: September 01, 2016, 06:14:28 AM
Congratulations to Mjames for starting one of the most popular threads in a while not including ones like “What is on your mind” and “What are you listening to”.  It is doing great with 537 posts but it lacks in number of views.  Example:  “Attrative pianists” has a little more posts than this thread but has 135 views per post when this thread only has about 10 views per post.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/economy/trade
Many thanks for the link.

The difference in this thread is that, fundamentally, there can be only two views - for and against and, within those, the pro- and the anti-single market ones. Yes, there are also differing views about immigration, its benefits and its disadvantages if wholly uncontrolled, but Brexit itself is, quite simply, a single issue which some people favour and others don't rather than a series of subjects on which many differing views are possible.

Beyond that, the issues about whether the referendum was needed, why the UK/EU in/out matter was subjected to referendum rather than Parliamentary debate and vote, the terms of the referendum (no minimum turnout or majority), how the campaign was conducted, the efforts to conceal the non-legally binding aspect of the referendum as well as the petition and impending legal challenges are all just plain facts rather than issues upon which different views can be held.

The examples that you cite are very different; what is on members' minds and what they're listening to at any time will vary greatly, just as some pianists might be attractive to some members but not to others and there are in any case a great number of pianists upon whom such opinions might be expressed.

In short, Brexit isn't something that's amenable to the expression of a vast variety of views.

Meanwhile, https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/brexit-means-brexit-but-the-conservative-party-remain-divided-on-what-that-actually-means-a7218366.html , yet also https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article-50-government-to-push-ahead-without-seeking-commons-approval-a7218996.html .

So, rather like Humpty Dumpty's assertion that a word means whatever he wants it to mean, no more, no less, Brexit means many different things to many people and nothing at all to many more because they haven't a clue what it's supposed to mean or might come to mean (if indeed it ever comes to mean anything).

UK hasn't been steamrollered into such grave uncertainty and instability in living memory and the increasing instance of racist hate crimes following the opinion poll result has only served to make matters even worse; these are plain facts, whether or not one supports Brexit in principle.

In fact, the entire situation has now developed into one of such absurdity that the government of the day (while it lasts) might as well go the whole hog and hold a referendum on whether to retain or abandon Parliament and, if 37% of the UK electorate vote to get rid of it, Parliament could then dither indefinitely over whether and when to sign its own death warrant and close down, rather as it's now doing over Article 50; in reality, though, it need do nothing in the face of such an outcome, of course, because referenda results are mere opinion poll results and therefore not legally binding in UK...

Best,

Alistair
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Offline georgey

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #541 on: September 01, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
Many thanks for the link.

The difference in this thread is that, fundamentally, there can be only two views - for and against and, within those, the pro- and the anti-single market ones. Yes, there are also differing views about immigration, its benefits and its disadvantages if wholly uncontrolled, but Brexit itself is something which some people favour and others don't. Beyond that, the issues about whether the referendum was needed, why the issue was subjected to referendum rather than Parliamentary debate and vote, the terms of the referendum (no mimum turnout or majority), how the campaign was conducted, the non-legally binding aspect of the referendum, and the petition and impending legal challenges are all plain facts rather than issues upon which different views can be held.

The examples that you cite are very different; what is on members' minds and what they're listening to at any time wil vary greatly, just as while some pianists might be atractive to some members but not to others there are a great number of pianists upon whom such opi nions might be expressed.

In short, Brexit isn't something that's amenable to the expression of a vast variety of views.

Best,

Alistair

The ratio of views to posts is no indication of the quality or lack of quality of a thread.  For example, Bob has a thread called “Cheers :)”  It has about the same number of views as this thread (5504) but it only has 22 posts making the ratio of views to posts a very large number of 250.  This does not imply that Bob’s thread is superior or inferior to this thread.  Sorry if you thought I was implying anything about the quality of a thread.  I’m just a numbers guy.  Cheers :)!   ;)

Offline georgey

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #542 on: September 01, 2016, 07:14:10 AM

UK hasn't been steamrollered into such grave uncertainty and instability in living memory and the increasing instance of racist hate crimes following the opinion poll result has only served to make matters even worse; these are plain facts, whether or not one supports Brexit in principle.


I'm hoping for the best for the UK and the USA.  My fingers are crossed.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #543 on: September 01, 2016, 07:24:27 AM
The UK seems to be surviving the initial Brexit shockwaves and the doom predicted by the Leave campaign have turned out to be pathetic lies which were spread in an attempt to sway the vote. It deserved to fail.

Theresa May has made it very clear that Brexit means Brexit and all these silly court cases will come to nothing. Wisely, she is also making immigration control a red line in our departure negotiation. This is very wise, but she is going to have a tough time ahead.

As for the increasing "racist attacks", this is left wing horseshit. The British people are noted for their tolerance and considering the amount of EU citizens working in this Country, the  attacks and abuse are microscopically small and anyone that suggests otherwise and who is blind to the attacks against British citizens from foreigners are left wing trash.

The Scots will carry on being leeches, but hopefully, not off the English.

Thal
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #544 on: September 01, 2016, 08:05:01 AM
The ratio of views to posts is no indication of the quality or lack of quality of a thread.  For example, Bob has a thread called “Cheers :)”  It has about the same number of views as this thread (5504) but it only has 22 posts making the ratio of views to posts a very large number of 250.  This does not imply that Bob’s thread is superior or inferior to this thread.  Sorry if you thought I was implying anything about the quality of a thread.  I’m just a numbers guy.  Cheers :)!   ;)
Ah - there are "views" and "views"! I referred to the number of views that members might hold on this subject or that but you're here referring to the numbers of times that individual threads and posts have been viewed!

Bst,

Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #545 on: September 01, 2016, 08:16:39 AM
The UK seems to be surviving the initial Brexit shockwaves and the doom predicted by the Leave campaign have turned out to be pathetic lies which were spread in an attempt to sway the vote. It deserved to fail.
I think that you mean the Remain campaign; however, be that as it may (or may not), whilst both campaigns spread lies and fear, the Leave one did far more of both than the Remain one.

Yes, UK is surviving, though not without some negative consequences (particularly to the value of its currency), but that's largely becuse nothing has yet happened to initiate procedures necessary to commence negotiations for Brexit; the longer that remains the case, the longer UK might be able to continue to survive without much worsening of its situation.

Theresa May has made it very clear that Brexit means Brexit
She's made a mockery of herself by establishing this utterly meaningless phrase; whatever Brexit might mean, the only thing that's "clear" is that it doesn't mean the same to everyone, irrespective of whether or not they favour it as a matter of general principle. As I've stated before, however, she might as well have said "Breakfast means Breakfast" (as has been suggested elsewhere), or "Beanz meanz Heinz" or even "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose" for all the meaning that she has imparted by its wearisomely repeated use.

all these silly court cases will come to nothing
They might, but neither you nor I nor anyone else including the various judges, prosecution or defence in any of them can any more know that in advance than they can with any other court case. Whatever happened to "innocent until proved guilty", for example? - surely one of the well enshrined judicial principles of which you approve...

One thing is certain, however, which is that no self-respecting judge would agree to try a case if he/she considered it in advance to be vexatious, without merit and therefore a waste of valuable court time, yet judges have expressed willingness to try these cases rather than reject them out of hand; judges cannot usually be forced to try cases against their will or better judgement.

You mention only the court cases but not the petition that is due for Parliamentary debate in Westminster Hall next Monday; whilst I have little doubt that this will not succeed (and I do not in any case believe that a second referendum, even under the appropriately far stricter parameters called for by the petitioner, is the right way to address the problems left in the wake of the referendum), how "silly" could you reasonably call a petition that has to date attracted as many as 4,144,072 signatures, a number equivalent to almost 10% of the entire UK electorate?

Wisely, she is also making immigration control a red line in our departure negotiation. This is very wise, but she is going to have a tough time ahead.
As with all else in this ongoing shambles, we do not yet know what if anything she proposes to try to do - or indeed can or could do - about immigration, or indeed about the security of tenure of immigrants already living in UK and, at the same time, the rights of UK citizens living elsewhere in EU to continue to do so. I am an immigrant myself (albeit from within UK), but I do not expect the government to issue marching orders to me to return to Scotland and deport me there at the UK taxpayers' expense should Scotland become independent of UK.

Where Ms May has so far been wise, however, is in her continued and apparently determined pragmatism and her evident refusal to be rushed into something that has not been thought through in advance as should have been the case. Frankly, I doubt very much that, had she been Primie Minister at the time of the last UK General Election, she would have included a referendum on this matter in her party's manifesto.

It is indeed true, as you note, that she'll have a tough time ahead of her, but then so will her successor - unless she remains in Prime Ministerial office - following the next General Election which, at the very latest, must be held by the first half of 2020, by which time Brexit negotiations and procedures will still be continuing (if indeed they ever commence) and UK will therefore still be an EU member state; should the Conservative Party fail to win that election and should whichever party wins instead have pledged in its manifesto to overturn Brexit (if procedures towards it have been commenced), what then?

Ms May is also no doubt duly and wisely cognisant of her responsibilities to hold back on Brexit for the foreseeable future in view not only of the forthcoming petition debate and various court cases but also in the light of the elections next year in France, Germany and Netherlands whose outcomes might well put a new complexion on EU and accordingly impact upon what she and her government decide to do, when and how (if indeed at all) about Brexit.

As for the increasing "racist attacks", this is left wing horseshit.
Tell that to anyone who has been a victim of them, or to any police officer who has been called out in response to any of them! No wings, no horses (even police horses) and no sh*t, just plain facts. In terms of numbers of reported cases that are now on official record, it is clear that Poles have had rather more of this than any other group (and one of them has now been murdered), but perhaps this is unsurprising as a statistic given that approximately 1 in every 8 people living in UK is Polish and that there are more Polish immigrants in UK than immigrants from anywhere else.

The British people are noted for their tolerance and considering the amount of EU citizens working in this Country, the attacks and abuse are microscopically small and anyone that suggests otherwise and who is blind to the attacks against British citizens from foreigners are left wing trash.
Much of this is true, of course (although I did not refer to racist attacks on UK citizens living in other countries), but the fact remains that, in the aftermath of the opinion poll, such racist attacks (especially against Poles) did increase; that is officially documented at least in terms of cases that have been reported to the police.

The Scots will carry on being leeches, but hopefully, not off the English.
The Scots, including me, will carry on being Scots, although some of us might well consider, as indeed I will, applying for dual UK/Scottish citizenship in the event that Scotland secedes from UK in order to remain an EU member state in its own right (which I neverhtless hope will not become necessary); given the indebtedness of every nation to every other that I mentioned upthread, however, every nation leeches off every other one; in our incresingly globalised and interconnected world, that's the way the international economic cookie crumbles, Thal.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #546 on: September 01, 2016, 05:40:58 PM
I think that you mean the Remain campaign; however, be that as it may (or may not), whilst both campaigns spread lies and fear, the Leave one did far more of both than the Remain one.


Have you counted them up?. I would love to see your proof unless you are just repeating something you read in the Guardian.

I have only read your first paragraph. I expect the rest is boring repeats.

Thal
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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #547 on: September 01, 2016, 09:31:52 PM
Have you counted them up?
Neither up nor down, but then I was not referring to numbers of instances but to the seriousness of some of the lies (the £350m one in particular).

I would love to see your proof unless you are just repeating something you read in the Guardian.
I rarely read the Guardian and, in any case, those lies were plastered all over most major national newspapers in UK and elsewhere.

I have only read your first paragraph. I expect the rest is boring repeats.
Then you can only "expect"; you cannot know if, by your own admission, you have not read.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #548 on: September 02, 2016, 11:41:49 AM
Great that the manufacturing industry has just seen the biggest month to month increase in 25 years.

It appears that the good old British businessman is carrying on as normal whilst the Remoaners carry on with their doom and silly court cases.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #549 on: September 02, 2016, 12:08:28 PM
Great that the manufacturing industry has just seen the biggest month to month increase in 25 years.

It appears that the good old British businessman is carrying on as normal whilst the Remoaners carry on with their doom and silly court cases.
The manufacturing industry in UK is by no means all owned and operated by "the British businessman", good or bad, old or young or indeed his employees, but yes, that news is indeed good but should not be taken in isolation and in ignorance of reservations widely expressed not so much by "lefties", "Remoaners", "Guardian readers" and the like but by other captains of UK industry.

As I have already stated, the pound has taken a massive tumble, interest rates hve also fallen and are likely to fall again at least once during the next few months and, above all, the only thing that's currently certain is uncertainty, including over any kind of timetable for attempting to do whatever it is that the government might or might not do and for which no one has made any plans in advance as they should have done.

I have already pointed out that court cases cannot be all that "silly" if distinguished judges are prepared to try them at what will be the taxpayers' expense if any of the various prosecutors win; as I said, no judge is obliged to take on a case if he/she believes it to be untenable, vexatious or otherwise a waste of court time and any judge worthy of his/her rôle would reject any such case outright.

The only time to determine how "silly" any of them might be is therefore after they have been tried and gone through any appeals procedures that might follow them; to pronounce a verdict on their validity as you are seeking to do, in advance of their being held and almost certainly without having even read any of the court submissions, is premature and based on lack of evidence (and OK, I've not read them either but then I'm not claiming any of the pending cases to be "silly").

Best,

Alistair
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