Opus Clavicembalisticum difficulty

[cuberdrift]

Popularly known as the hardest piece for piano ever written, what is harder between:

1. OC and all 32 Beethoven Sonatas?

2. OC and all 4 Rach concerti?

3. OC and all 12 Transcendental etudes by Liszt?

4. OC and all Chopin etudes?

I am wondering because while OC is most certainly a great deal harder than practically everything in the standard repertoire on a piece-by-piece basis, a lot of well-reputed pianists have the habit of recording "complete X sonatas/etudes/nocturnes by composer X" and these are of course very long as well.

So I am wondering if mastering the "complete works of composer X" would be just as difficult as taking on this gargantuan solo piano work, then it should be possible for a competent concert pianist to take it on!

What are your thoughts? 

[brogers70]

My thought is that what's interesting is the ratio of beauty to technical difficulty rather than the technical difficulty alone.

[ahinton]

As I have had cause to mention on more occasions than I can remember, what is monumentally difficult to one pianist will be less so to others. OC is certainly packed with challenges, not least in terms of sheer physical and mental stamina, but it is not the toughest of Sorabji's works to master and, as has rightly been noted, what matters is not how difficult it is to prepare and perform - or indeed how any such difficulty might compare to that of other repertoire - but of what the piece consists; the listener does not listen out for difficulties but for music.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I can confirm that it is very difficult to listen to. The great thing about this work is that if it were played backwards, it would be equally appealing and most wouldnt notice.

Thal

[ahinton]

I can confirm that it is very difficult to listen to. The great thing about this work is that if it were played backwards, it would be equally appealing and most wouldnt notice.

Thal

Since when did you ever listen to it all the way through? The suggestion that no one would notice were it to be played backwards is about as fatuous as it gets; try doing just that and see how well that stands up to the test of your bizarre assertion!

Best,

Alistair

[maxim3]

I can confirm that it is very difficult to listen to. The great thing about this work is that if it were played backwards, it would be equally appealing and most wouldnt notice.

In this day and age, such an experiment is very feasible. Does anyone know of a complete digital rendering of this piece, in MIDI, or some notation program? In that case it could be rendered backwards and tweaked to give a reasonably human-like effect when played back with a decent virtual piano library. It would be a monstrous amount of work, though (I mean the editing and tweaking to make it sound human)

[ted]

I used to do that years ago with MED on the Amiga. A few lines of code can turn a piece upside down or back to front. I used to substitute video game sound effects for instruments too, had a lot of fun. Some pieces sound much better than others. Bach fugues sound all right reversed or upside down but ragtime and romantic stuff sounds unremarkable. Overall though, as with algorithmic composition, the results were not interesting enough to get me away from real playing on a real piano.

[outin]

I used to do that years ago with MED on the Amiga. A few lines of code can turn a piece upside down or back to front. I used to substitute video game sound effects for instruments too, had a lot of fun. Some pieces sound much better than others. Bach fugues sound all right reversed or upside down but ragtime and romantic stuff sounds unremarkable. Overall though, as with algorithmic composition, the results were not interesting enough to get me away from real playing on a real piano.

So did you find any evil messages hidden in the compositions?

[ted]

So did you find any evil messages hidden in the compositions?

No, of course not, but the vehemence of some reactions to the experiments surprised me, usually from the people least likely to know if they were listening to Bach or an imitation. If I can find some of the recordings I shall post them but I can't remember where I put them.

[ahinton]

The point of playing OC backwards seems to me to be about as devoid of sense as playing anything else backwards; perhaps one might have to be backward in order to want to do it, though...

Best,

Alistair

[maxim3]

I've been listening to a bit of Ogdon performing Opus Claviblablabla on Youtube, and the work is clearly the musical equivalent of James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.

My opinion of the Finnegan book is exactly that expressed so memorably by the Brothers Judd:

https://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/945/Finnegan%27s%20W.htm

[ted]

I've been listening to a bit of Ogdon performing Opus Claviblablabla on Youtube, and the work is clearly the musical equivalent of James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.

My opinion of the Finnegan book is exactly that expressed so memorably by the Brothers Judd:

https://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/945/Finnegan%27s%20W.htm

I have always loved that book. A close friend, a defrocked minister from Dublin, explained all the Irish references to me but those aren't essential to enjoying the Wake. It is really good fun to write in that style too.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=10579.msg109125#msg109125

[lostinidlewonder]

Here is something from the OC reversed Still sounds interesting lo0ol.

[maxim3]

HAHAHAHA I loaded that file up and played it back with a Steinway library and it sounded pretty much like a randomly chosen section of the original Sorabji stuff -- we should stick it on Youtube as a new interpretation of the work by an 'up and coming Chinese pianist' and see what happens

[ahinton]

HAHAHAHA I loaded that file up and played it back with a Steinway library and it sounded pretty much like a randomly chosen section of the original Sorabji stuff -- we should stick it on Youtube as a new interpretation of the work by an 'up and coming Chinese pianist' and see what happens

What will happen is that ti steg nekat nwod.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Here is something from the OC reversed Still sounds interesting lo0ol.

Some people clearly have too much time on their hands (or somewhere)...

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

HAHAHAHA I loaded that file up and played it back with a Steinway library and it sounded pretty much like a randomly chosen section of the original Sorabji stuff -- we should stick it on Youtube as a new interpretation of the work by an 'up and coming Chinese pianist' and see what happens

And make it a 4 year old Chinese pianist that is more fun

Some people clearly have too much time on their hands (or somewhere)...

Clearly? Maybe you haven't much experience with reversing midi files, it is a simple click of a button. Much easier than chasing down people breaching copyrights.

[ahinton]

Clearly? Maybe you haven't much experience with reversing midi files, it is a simple click of a button.

Indeed I haven't (not least because I have better things to do) but I am aware of what's involved; still a waste of whatever time it requires, as far as I am concerned.

Much easier than chasing down people breaching copyrights.

That's not difficult either, once one is accustomed to it, but it's also of much more use, tiresome though the necessity is - i.e. there is a good reason for it to be done, which is more than can be said for cancrizanning (is that a word?) MIDIs.

That said, quite why some people upload copyrighted material to YouTube, for example, when it's an odds on certainty that it will get taken down I have no idea, especially given that such takedowns can and often do result in YT account closures.

Best,

Alistair

[georgey]

I am not familiar with Sorabji or his OC.  I did a little reading on this now.  I was about to order a used copy of a 5 cd set of this work performed by Madge.  It looks like it is a live performance and a sloppy performance, so I am a little hesitant to buy this.  But I can get it for about $20 USD.  The performance I want is Ogden, but this is out of print and used copies are selling for $800 usd.

As for difficulty - I imagine some that perform Chopin op 10 and 25 fairly well may have a lot of trouble with the Beethoven, and visa versa. 

Here is how I would determine difficulty:  Take 10 world class pianists that are good in performing Bach all the way to modern.  How much time would they have to spend to get each of the works in question up to their performance standard?  If they already worked on some of the pieces, this time would have to be added in.  Take the average of the times for the 10 pianists.  The work with the longest average time to learn for this group of 10 pianists is the most difficult work.  Unfortunately, these average times will never be available.

Due to the large amount of material, I might put the Beethoven 32 as the hardest of the works in question.  Just a wild guess though.  I haven't heard the OC yet.  This lasts about 4 hours I think.

[ahinton]

I am not familiar with Sorabji or his OC.  I did a little reading on this now.  I was about to order a used copy of a 5 cd set of this work performed by Madge.  It looks like it is a live performance and a sloppy performance, so I am a little hesitant to buy this.  But I can get it for about $20 USD.  The performance I want is Ogden, but this is out of print and used copies are selling for $800 usd.

The Ogdon recording is NOT out of print; it was released in 1989, weeks before the pianist's death and is still available today; try www.recordinsinternational.com .

Best,

Alistair

[georgey]

The Ogdon recording is NOT out of print; it was released in 1989, weeks before the pianist's death and is still available today; try www.recordinsinternational.com .

Best,

Alistair

Thanks!  For some reason though I get the message that I can't reach you site when I click on the link.

On Amazon, there is a seller Amazon Global seller UK for Ogden for $61 USD.  Here is his message:

Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available. We'll e-mail you with an estimated delivery date as soon as we have more information. Your credit card will not be charged until we ship the item.

But then the next cheapest is $800 used copy followed by $1223 then $1999 prices for USED copies.  I just assumed it was out of print otherwise - why would any pay $800+?!?

I'll give Amazon Global seller UK a shot and order this now.  Nice thing - Amazon does not charge until it ships.  Thanks!

[thalbergmad]

Here is something from the OC reversed Still sounds interesting lo0ol.

Brilliant and i feel vindicated. Play a Beethoven Sonata backwards and everyone on the planet would notice. Play this OC bollox backwards and it is actually an improvement.

Thal

[georgey]

I listened to Cadenza I on youtube just now – forward.

I’m not here to judge anyone’s opinion.  However: My question to you musical philosophers (of which we ALL are) that do not like the OC:

1) How many movements of the 12 have you listened to?  How many times?

2)  What about Charles Ives Piano Sonata #2?  Does this sound just as well backwards?

3) What about Schoenberg, Berg and Webern music (the crazy sounding stuff, I mean)?  Sound just as good backwards?

4) Putting all modern music on a sounds same backwards scale from 0 to 100, where OC is a 100 (sounds same and bad played forward and backwards) and a 0 is “sounds fantastic forward and terrible backwards”, where do you put Ives Sonata #2 (a 70?), and Schoenberg, Berg and Webern music (maybe a range from 50 to 90?).

5) Which music should be tossed out?  Any with a score of 50 or more?

6) What about a played sideways scale?  How does OC sound played sideways?

[ahinton]

Brilliant and i feel vindicated. Play a Beethoven Sonata backwards and everyone on the planet would notice. Play this OC bollox backwards and it is actually an improvement.

You can talk such rubbish sometimes. This is a classic instance thereof.

Best,

Alistair

[georgey]

You can talk such rubbish sometimes. This is a classic instance thereof.

Best,

Alistair

I'm going to stick up for those that may not like the work.  But I have couple more questions:

7) Does OC played sideways = Ives sonata #2?  I'm doing the calculations now as I type. I'll get back to you later on this.

  Not to insult anyone:
Rank all animal life from highest to lowest - humans on top and prokaryotes at the bottom.  Now play Beethoven backwards.  At some level of life (maybe an amoeba), does Beethoven sound the same forward and backwards?   

All kidding aside, I just spent $61 for my CD of OC.  It better be good!!!   
 

[georgey]

Sorry guys - I get carried away sometimes.  I'll tone it down going forward.   

[klavieronin]

I was about to order a used copy of a 5 cd set of this work performed by Madge.  It looks like it is a live performance and a sloppy performance, so I am a little hesitant to buy this.  But I can get it for about $20 USD.  The performance I want is Ogden, but this is out of print and used copies are selling for $800 usd.

georgey,

I wish you had read this review before making your purchase.

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/nov99/sorabji.htm

I have the Madge recording and it is excellent.

[georgey]

georgey,

I wish you had read this review before making your purchase.

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/nov99/sorabji.htm

I have the Madge recording and it is excellent.

  ! 

[lostinidlewonder]

Indeed I haven't (not least because I have better things to do) but I am aware of what's involved; still a waste of whatever time it requires, as far as I am concerned.

All it takes is to press one button and its done, as far as I'm concerned less than 10 seconds to do it all is not a waste of time at all. Given that it was discussed to hear the music backwards and no one had heard it before I'm sure sharing exactly what it sounds like backwards was not a total waste of time for those interested. So your "clear" type of obsevation of people having too much time wasn't clear at all since less than 10 seconds really does not define a great amount of time to be wasted.

That's not difficult either, once one is accustomed to it, but it's also of much more use, tiresome though the necessity is - i.e. the re is a good reason for it to be done, which is more than can be said for cancrizanning (is that a word?) MIDIs.

It may not be difficult that wasn't the point, it is clearly much easier to deal with the midi reversing that was the point. It takes a lot more time chasing up copyright than reversing a midi which takes less than 10 seconds and does not require one to have a lot of time on their hands, clearly. Clearly also chasing down copyright requires a lot of time to invest if you are to catch them all, I see a number of examples on youtube which have not been taken down, better get busy!

That said, quite why some people upload copyrighted material to YouTube, for example, when it's an odds on certainty that it will get taken down I have no idea, especially given that such takedowns can and often do result in YT account closures.

There are still a number of them out there still going and have not been taken down, perhaps because those defending the copyright are a little lazy to do so or haven't enough time to go search for them.

[lostinidlewonder]

Brilliant and i feel vindicated. Play a Beethoven Sonata backwards and everyone on the planet would notice. Play this OC bollox backwards and it is actually an improvement.

Thal

Some parts of that midi actually sound quite similar when played backwards lol.

[georgey]

Berg's Lulu opera: central interlude in the second act is a palindrome in every detail - after a midpoint peak, the music runs backwards, note for note lol.

[ahinton]

All it takes is to press one button and its done, as far as I'm concerned less than 10 seconds to do it all is not a waste of time at all. Given that it was discussed to hear the music backwards and no one had heard it before I'm sure sharing exactly what it sounds like backwards was not a total waste of time for those interested. So your "clear" type of obsevation of people having too much time wasn't clear at all since less than 10 seconds really does not define a great amount of time to be wasted.
It may not be difficult that wasn't the point, it is clearly much easier to deal with the midi reversing that was the point. It takes a lot more time chasing up copyright than reversing a midi which takes less than 10 seconds and does not require one to have a lot of time on their hands, clearly. Clearly also chasing down copyright requires a lot of time to invest if you are to catch them all, I see a number of examples on youtube which have not been taken down, better get busy!
There are still a number of them out there still going and have not been taken down, perhaps because those defending the copyright are a little lazy to do so or haven't enough time to go search for them.

If it pleases you to create a cancrizans MIDI for whatever reason or none then so be it - there's little harm done, obviously - but then practising the gentle art of wasting time doesn't necessarily have to involve large amounts thereof.

You should not assume that no Sorabji uploads to YouTube have been authorised; there are indeed a few that have been uploaded by the artist concerned. I do not expect - nor, I imagine, does anyone else with rights in such material (artists, record companies, broadcasters, &c.) - that all unauthorised uploads will be found and removed but there are now but a fraction of the large number that were once available (especially on YouTube). When such uploads are of material available on commercial recordings, their presence inevitably compromises sales of those recordings, so they need to be removed. That said, tere is no problem with short extracts of these on a "fair use" basis; indeed, I for one would encourage these.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You can talk such rubbish sometimes. This is a classic instance thereof.

Best,

Alistair

I am not alone though as others seem to agree with me.
It doesn't matter if it is played backwards or forwards or even inside out. It also is completely irrelevant
who is playing it.
I know you are knocking one out over the thought of a Powell CD, but
It could equally be played by a deranged gibbon.
Thal

[ahinton]

I am not alone though as others seem to agree with me.

Be that as it may or may not, there are also plenty who would not do so, including all who have attended its couple of dozen or so performances and those who have purchased the Ogdon and Madge recordings of which the former has been available ever since its release 30 years ago.

It doesn't matter if it is played backwards or forwards or even inside out. It also is completely irrelevant who is playing it.

I know you are knocking one out over the thought of a Powell CD, but
It could equally be played by a deranged gibbon.

"It doesn't matter" to whom? How anyone would play it "inside out" I have no idea in any case. To suggest that it does not matter who is playing it is not an insult to the piece but it is to the pianist concerned.

I've no idea what you mean by "knocking one out" but as yet there are no plans for Jonathan Powell to record the work, although I don't doubt that he will turn is attentions to that in due course.

All that said, if you personally take such a dim view of the piece, why did you attend Jonathan Powell's performance in Oxford a couple of years ago (even though you did not stay until the end)? After all, it wasn't as though the performance venue was just around the corner from you!

Best,

Alistair

[georgey]

I don’t have any problem with someone not liking this work or any other work or composer or style of music or music itself.  To be honest, this is something that probably won’t make my top 200 list, but I like to try to listen to new things every once in a while.  I plan to hear this at least 5 times before changing the CD’s in my car.

The problem that I MAY have with this work without having heard it is its length.  Does the composer expect the pianist to play it non-stop and the listeners to listen non-stop for 4+ hours?  Is this music intended to be performed in 1 sitting without intermission?  If yes, then this becomes a marathon for the performer and listener. I am no fan of that.  How about 1st half one night with a 20 minute intermission?  Then finish on a second night?  Do any pianists ever perform selections of this work in a concert that also consists of other works? 

What about the Ring cycle?  Yes, the “Ring” cycle lasts 17 hours. But that's over several days, with days off between each of the four operas and long breaks after every act.  Also, there are changes in scenery and singers and orchestration as well as a plot to follow – all missing in a solo piano piece.

[ahinton]

I don’t have any problem with someone not liking this work or any other work or composer or style of music or music itself.  To be honest, this is something that probably won’t make my top 200 list, but I like to try to listen to new things every once in a while.  I plan to hear this at least 5 times before changing the CD’s in my car.

I don't have a problem with that in principle either.

The problem that I MAY have with this work without having heard it is its length.  Does the composer expect the pianist to play it non-stop and the listeners to listen non-stop for 4+ hours?  Is this music intended to be performed in 1 sitting without intermission?  If yes, then this becomes a marathon for the performer and listener. I am no fan of that.  How about 1st half one night with a 20 minute intermission?  Then finish on a second night?  Do any pianists ever perform selections of this work in a concert that also consists of other works?

If you've not heard it, you are not in a position to have a problem with it, whatever that might be. Sorabji one tld me that he'd heard some pieces lasting less than three minutes that overstayed their welcome. the most impoartant thing is that each piece is the length that its music demands of it - nor more, no less.

What about the Ring cycle?  Yes, the “Ring” cycle lasts 17 hours. But that's over several days, with days off between each of the four operas and long breaks after every act.  Also, there are changes in scenery and singers and orchestration as well as a plot to follow – all missing in a solo piano piece.

Or organ piece - yes, of course - but neither OC nor any other large scale Sorabji work is intended to be performed and listened to with no intervals any more than one would expect to attend a production fo the entire Ring cycle in one go. Probably the longest single unbroken stretch of music from Sorabji is the second of his Second Organ Symphony's three movements, a big set of variations on an expansive theme that plays for almost 4½ hours; I attended the world première in 2010 and have to say that this movement felt like 1 hour 45 minutes at most. The variations could not have coped with any more or less, the proportions and duration of each was just right and the narrative and darma evidenced beyond all doubt a tremendous sense of the micro as well as the macro - everything in its rightful place and never too much or too little music as it progressed.

Best,

Alistair

[georgey]

“If you've not heard it, you are not in a position to have a problem with it, whatever that might be.”

Fair enough, but tell this to my bladder.  Also my back.  I can go 1 hour without problems, get up and take a stretch and go to bathroom then me and my parts are good for more music.

EDIT: I'm kidding here a little, but I would not want to drink coffee before a 4 hour performance and seats can become uncomfortable, etc.  This is a consideration.  I think Rheingold takes 2.5 hours all without break.  I think I could manage that.


“Or organ piece - yes, of course - but neither OC nor any other large scale Sorabji work is intended to be performed and listened to with no intervals any more than one would expect to attend a production fo the entire Ring cycle in one go. Probably the longest single unbroken stretch of music from Sorabji is the second of his Second Organ Symphony's three movements, a big set of variations on an expansive theme that plays for almost 4½ hours; I attended the world première in 2010 and have to say that this movement felt like 1 hour 45 minutes at most. The variations could not have coped with any more or less, the proportions and duration of each was just right and the narrative and darma evidenced beyond all doubt a tremendous sense of the micro as well as the macro - everything in its rightful place and never too much or too little music as it progressed.”

All good info.  Thanks.  I look forward to getting my Ogdon CD copy of OC.  If this is not available by the end of August (it’s out of stock), I may get used copy of Madge to get me started.  Any preference for you on the Ogdon vs Madge?  Thanks.

EDIT: Just ordered Madge used CD copy since it was recommended.  Still have order for Ogdon new CD copy also, so I will have both. 

[maxim3]

Sorabji, Schoenberg, Boulez, Berg, etc. all that rubbish. Many nouns could be used to characterize that whole malodorous pile of notes, with the exception of one: 'music.'

Listen to this for a few minutes (at least long enough to hear a few complete chorales) to remind yourself of what music actually is:

The performer plays two versions of each chorale, one with bass and soprano only, then one with the alto and tenor put back in. Bach's basses are unimpeachable of course; but when his other two voices are added, the result is the immortal, perfected essence of Western music -- and that's just the bedrock of the whole mountain, of which Bach also composed a large portion of the remainder.

Sorabji, along with all those other 20th-century note-scribbling neurotics, is just a pianistically gifted but mentally disturbed note-factory. Many, many things can be said about him that are true; but one thing that can not be said seriously is that he was a composer. He was simply a man who wrote and played millions upon millions of hard-to-play notes. That does not equal 'music.'

If there's one thing I've become convinced of over my lifetime, it's that many people who absolutely adore listening to 'music' as they call it, are in fact grotesquely unable to understand and respond to actual music. The sounds that are giving them such intense pleasure turn out, upon the briefest inspection, to have nothing at all to do with music. I have seen this syndrome in both friends and family, and it frankly makes me lose my appetite.

But I try to keep in mind the ancient Latin saying, "De gustibus non est disputandam," which means essentially that it is entirely futile to try to prove superiority of taste by means of argumentation.

So I don't argue. I merely point, laugh, and mock.

[georgey]

BWV 331 - absolutely gorgeous!  Would we be better off if music stopped developing after Bach?  Probably not.  You should spend time learning some of these chorales.  Be able to play with gorgeous, balanced sound.

[lostinidlewonder]

... practising the gentle art of wasting time doesn't necessarily have to involve large amounts thereof.

It seems illogical to call something a waste of time when it takes less than 10 seconds, quite a melodramatic statement.

You should not assume that no Sorabji uploads to YouTube have been authorised; there are indeed a few that have been uploaded by the artist concerned.

The use of the word "concerned" makes little sense here.

I do not expect ... that all unauthorised uploads will be found and removed ....

So you see that chasing up copyright is more difficult than me merely reversing a midi file which takes a few seconds which is not a matter of having too much time or an activity of wasting time.

When such uploads are of material available on commercial recordings, their presence inevitably compromises sales of those recordings, so they need to be removed. That said, tere is no problem with short extracts of these on a "fair use" basis; indeed, I for one would encourage these.

You stated that me posting a reversed midi was clearly a matter of having too much time and then you further escalated your idea of time to state that it was a waste of time also, this has been refuted in two ways 1) that it took mere seconds and to call that having too much time or a waste of time is rather irrational and melodramtic and 2) there were people here interested in hearing it backwards, both reasons which make you idea that it is a waste of time or a matter of having too much time sound quite exaggerated.

[lostinidlewonder]

Probably the longest single unbroken stretch of music from Sorabji is the second of his Second Organ Symphony's three movements, a big set of variations on an expansive theme that plays for almost 4½ hours; I attended the world première in 2010 and have to say that this movement felt like 1 hour 45 minutes at most.

Talk about wasting of time. Such a concert would be very small scale with few people managing to sit for that entire time and fewer even being interested to attend such things to begin with. It is rather sad that the performer would have invested countless hours preparing for such things only to be largely ignored.

[ahinton]

So I don't argue. I merely point, laugh, and mock.

That much is plainly obvious and your "observations" deserve to be read (if at all) on that basis alone).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Thanks!  For some reason though I get the message that I can't reach you site when I click on the link.

That's because I mistyped it; sorry! It should be www.recordsinternational.com .

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It seems illogical to call something a waste of time when it takes less than 10 seconds, quite a melodramatic statement.
The use of the word "concerned" makes little sense here.

Then for it read "featured", or "in question"; in other words the performer/s whose work is in the uploaded file.

So you see that chasing up copyright is more difficult than me merely reversing a midi file which takes a few seconds which is not a matter of having too much time or an activity of wasting time.

There is a useful purpose in checking and reporting copyright infringements, which is why it is not a waste of time.

You stated that me posting a reversed midi was clearly a matter of having too much time and then you further escalated your idea of time to state that it was a waste of time also, this has been refuted in two ways 1) that it took mere seconds and to call that having too much time or a waste of time is rather irrational and melodramtic and 2) there were people here interested in hearing it backwards, both reasons which make you idea that it is a waste of time or a matter of having too much time sound quite exaggerated.

To you, perhaps, but what is there to be gained from creating such a reversed file or listening to it? It will certainly contribute nothing to the subject of this thread.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Talk about wasting of time. Such a concert would be very small scale with few people managing to sit for that entire time and fewer even being interested to attend such things to begin with. It is rather sad that the performer would have invested countless hours preparing for such things only to be largely ignored.

That work was scheduled  for performance in Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie in May of last year but had to be cancelled due to the organist's indisposition. All tickets for it had been sold more than six months in advance of the event. The hall holds approximately 2,000. Go figure.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Sorabji, Schoenberg, Boulez, Berg, etc. all that rubbish. Many nouns could be used to characterize that whole malodorous pile of notes, with the exception of one: 'music.'

Compared to Bach, the monumental pile of turd from the 20th century is just talentless peurile note spinning.
As you say, laugh and mock.
Thal

[ahinton]

Sorabji, Schoenberg, Boulez, Berg, etc. all that rubbish. Many nouns could be used to characterize that whole malodorous pile of notes, with the exception of one: 'music.'

You certainnly cast your net wide! Should one assume from what appears to be your far from exhaustive list of composers whose work you dismiss as "rubbish" (without giving any reasons why) that you consider all or most music written since the earliest of them became active as a composer to be "rubbish"? If so, it should perhaps be borne in mind that this represents all or most music written within the liftime of the oldest member here, given that Schönberg was active as a composer more than 120 years ago.

You then cite Bach, one of the greatest figures in Western music history and much admired as such by millions of people the world over, not least Sorabji, Schönberg, Boulez and Berg - Sorabji especially, as it happens; the point of that citation escapes me beause there simply isn't one, for I cannot imagine anyone here dimissing Bach.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Compared to Bach, the monumental pile of turd from the 20th century is just talentless peurile note spinning.

But by whose judgement and based upon what parameters is how much 20th (and presumablyh also 21st) century music part of a "monumental pile of turd"?

Moreover, as I wrote earlier, your reference to Bach is pointless since I cannot imagine anyone here dismissing one of the greatest figures in Western music history as "rubbish"; in any case, comparing the work of a great 18th century composer with that of a great 20th century one is not so very different from comparing apples with oranges.

Who in any case is to judge what and whom as "talentless"? Would you seriously accuse Sorabji, Schönberg, Boulez and Berg and their respective work as "talentless" and, if so, on what grounds? What kinds of thing that one might reasonably expect to form part of a fine composer's technical armoury do you find signally lacking in the music of those composers? If I possessed the gifts of those four, I would be so proud of myself that I don't think I'd feel able to write anything again!

Bach himself was a note-spinner - and an immensely gifted one - although, of course, I do not use that term in a derogatory manner here and of course he was so very much more than just a spinner of notes.

What is being written of here is not in the cause of expressing value judgements; it's simply saying "I don't like the music of X, Y and Z but I do enjoy and respect the music of Bach", no more, no less.

Anyway, what any of that has to do with the nature and extent of the difficulties of preparing Opus Clavicembalisticum for performance I have less than no idea.

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

There is a useful purpose in checking and reporting copyright infringements, which is why it is not a waste of time.

So something requires a purpose to be not a waste of time, posting a reverse of the midi serves a purpose as it was mentioned by other posters. Perhaps not a purpose that you find useful though that is irrelevant as too is your suggestion that one is wasting their time doing such things. If an action contributes to what others are discussing it is relevant to the thread and rather calling it a waste of time is not very useful observations.

... what is there to be gained from creating such a reversed file or listening to it?

Since others brought up the idea of it being listened to backwards it am just entertaining such an idea and allowing them to experience it in reality.

[ahinton]

So something requires a purpose to be not a waste of time, posting a reverse of the midi serves a purpose as it was mentioned by other posters. Perhaps not a purpose that you find useful though that is irrelevant as too is your suggestion that one is wasting their time doing such things.

Er, no, but if it does have an unquestionable specific purpose on each occasion when it is done and if doing it achieves the intended result it is clearly not a waste of time; on the other hand, it is hard to imagine that reversing a MIDI would have such a purpose and be recognised universally as such if it is capable of contributing nothing meaningful to the appreciation of the music itself, but if it pleases those who indulge in such a pointless exercise, so be it. One might also question, for that matter, the intrinsic value of an unreversed MIDI in cases wher the intended live performance is readily available.

If an action contributes to what others are discussing it is relevant to the thread and rather calling it a waste of time is not very useful observations.

It is unclear how it contributes anything enlightening - or indeed anything at all - to the subject of this thread, especially given that the "difficulty" in its title is clearly intended to represent the difficulty for the pianist in preparing a performance of the work as distinct from what you have yourself admitted is the very easy process of reversing a MIDI.

Since others brought up the idea of it being listened to backwards it am just entertaining such an idea and allowing them to experience it in reality.

I do not dispute that.

Best,

Alistair