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Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey (Read 2724 times)

Offline diomedes

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Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
« on: September 26, 2020, 02:55:56 PM »
Having just learned islamey up to performance standard, I do think it's worse than gaspard de la Nuit. Interested in opinions and experiences....

For me, islamey is just cruel, especially the last part where those leaps to the single E in the bass occur and build ups to both climaxes.... He wasn't a real pianist, that balakirev.... Man... But he tried
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Offline medtnerfan

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 09:18:26 PM »
Oh well, that means Ravel failed in making Gaspard the hardest piano piece.

Offline diomedes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #2 on: October 06, 2020, 04:51:11 PM »
This gave me way more hell than gaspard did but I managed to record it late last night.

Yea sorry ravel you lose this one  :P
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Offline medtnerfan

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 03:49:50 AM »
Haha nice. Yeah Balakirev's Islamey looks harder and a lot less idiomatic

Offline diomedes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 06:52:03 PM »
They have quite a bit in common, obviously, but like the way ravel manages the alternating double notes with singles is so masterful, the way balakirev does in places is awful, although occasionally it works and you can get them fast, but ravel can become mind blowing in speed. I'll likely return to islamey but some parts won't be a joy. I think Don Juan is even less demanding...

And now returning to standard Rep like scriabin and faure is suddenly effortless... I don't have to practice anymore!!!
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #5 on: October 08, 2020, 08:54:30 AM »
Ravel intended the Scarbo movement to be more difficult than Balakirev's Islamey and he succeeded imho.
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Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 02:37:38 AM »
They have quite a bit in common, obviously, but like the way ravel manages the alternating double notes with singles is so masterful, the way balakirev does in places is awful, although occasionally it works and you can get them fast, but ravel can become mind blowing in speed. I'll likely return to islamey but some parts won't be a joy. I think Don Juan is even less demanding...

And now returning to standard Rep like scriabin and faure is suddenly effortless... I don't have to practice anymore!!!

Is Islamey harder than Liszt's scherzo und marsch?

Offline diomedes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 05:36:47 AM »
Ravel intended the Scarbo movement to be more difficult than Balakirev's Islamey and he succeeded imho.
I've done both and islamey felt like endless punishment... Ravel just felt like art...

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Is Islamey harder than Liszt's scherzo und marsch?
No clue you tell me :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRfa3IIzVo
 
Man recording that was special... Lol

I never listened to scherzo and March by liszt, should I?
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #8 on: October 12, 2020, 06:49:14 PM »
Gaspard is three times longer and is a better piece

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Offline fftransform

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 05:52:04 AM »
Ah . . . my goodness.  Is that "performance standard"?  Like, who were you intending to subject to that?  Hopefully not humans!

This is simultaneously a really weird/paragon-of-Pianostreet-stereotype topic in order to drop a brag.  I can see how someone who's just trying to hit the notes might think that Islamey is harder than Gaspard.  Looking at your channel, it seems that there's a 4-year gap between your learning of Ondine and Scarbo, so I guess the notes didn't come that easy, either.



Worst topic ever?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #10 on: October 13, 2020, 12:00:30 PM »
I've done both and islamey felt like endless punishment... Ravel just felt like art...
For me the islamey got solved pretty fast by comparison. I would be surprised if we took statistics from all who have played both and the islamey came out being considered as harder. Scarbo requires that you are a wizard at arpeggio playing, it really is tough work which gives a lot of problems to solve, much more than what you face in the islamey.

Worst topic ever?
I thought so but Ravel did actually write Scarbo with the intention of it being harder than Islamey so that is a bit of knowledge that is pretty important to know.
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Offline diomedes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #11 on: October 13, 2020, 02:22:52 PM »
For me the islamey got solved pretty fast by comparison. I would be surprised if we took statistics from all who have played both and the islamey came out being considered as harder. Scarbo requires that you are a wizard at arpeggio playing, it really is tough work which gives a lot of problems to solve, much more than what you face in the islamey.
I thought so but Ravel did actually write Scarbo with the intention of it being harder than Islamey so that is a bit of knowledge that is pretty important to know.

Thank you, I'm downright interested in hearing from people who really played it what they thought. Cause it seems there's differences of opinion, and my social circle currently has no pianist that learned both.

Lostinidlewonder, you didn't find the pianistic aspect of islamey a little barbaric, some of the double note alternating figures has the thumb on black keys to start with and the leaps on the e bass note near the end... Compared to the ravel which fit like a glove, it really brings up the difficulty.

Quote
Worst topic ever?
Did you learn both and can discuss and compare the challenges? No? Ok then I don't really have interest in your negativism, although it's true there are many which looks harder thread's. This isn't one of them, thanks


Quote
Looking at your channel, it seems that there's a 4-year gap between your learning of Ondine and Scarbo, so I guess the notes didn't come that easy, either.

Um how much other repertoire did I learn in between those intervals and how many other things I was doing in between then are also a little relevant. It's not like I learned Scarbo for 4 years and did nothing else but practice that. You're a strange one.... But interesting to see you noticed.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #12 on: October 13, 2020, 03:56:47 PM »
Lostinidlewonder, you didn't find the pianistic aspect of islamey a little barbaric, some of the double note alternating figures has the thumb on black keys to start with and the leaps on the e bass note near the end... Compared to the ravel which fit like a glove, it really brings up the difficulty.
I don't really have the time to lay out all of the difficulty of both pieces, contrast and compare the technical difficulty of each and then estimate the average experience one might have with each thus determining which is harder. From my overall experience the Scarbo is harder than the islamey. If you think the acrobatics of the Scarbo "fits like a glove" then I would wonder why you cannot find the same resource in the islamey which has more repeated technical motiffs than Scarbo. The Gaspard has so much more musical expression and effects too, the Scarbo movement alone trumps the islamey there.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #13 on: October 13, 2020, 10:42:51 PM »
it's true there are many which looks harder thread's. This isn't one of them, thanks


Yes it is lol
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Offline mjames

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 03:10:06 AM »
Ah . . . my goodness.  Is that "performance standard"?  Like, who were you intending to subject to that?  Hopefully not humans!

This is simultaneously a really weird/paragon-of-Pianostreet-stereotype topic in order to drop a brag.  I can see how someone who's just trying to hit the notes might think that Islamey is harder than Gaspard.  Looking at your channel, it seems that there's a 4-year gap between your learning of Ondine and Scarbo, so I guess the notes didn't come that easy, either.



Worst topic ever?

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Offline harukipiano

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #15 on: October 15, 2020, 03:57:26 AM »
Trust me, Stravinsky's Three movements of Petrushka makes those pieces look almost like a joke.

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #16 on: October 16, 2020, 05:02:56 AM »
Trust me, Stravinsky's Three movements of Petrushka makes those pieces look almost like a joke.

If you played any of them you’d know they’re all pretty nasty with their own challenges.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #17 on: October 16, 2020, 07:05:48 AM »
Trust me, Stravinsky's Three movements of Petrushka makes those pieces look almost like a joke.

I'll admit, the Stravinsky was bloody hard... but CRAP - the Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini was MUCH harder. I could play the Stravinsky okay, but the Brahms...

...the horror.

Offline achoo42

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #18 on: January 04, 2021, 03:42:02 PM »
If you played any of them you’d know they’re all pretty nasty with their own challenges.

Yes, actually the challenges of Petrushka are somewhat overstated at times. It's still one of the hardest works in the repertoire, of course.

Offline harukipiano

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #19 on: April 04, 2021, 07:25:03 PM »
I have to be honest, after looking at all the 2 pieces, islamey is harder than gaspard, but Petrushka is definitely harder than both in my opinion.

Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #20 on: April 05, 2021, 04:10:23 PM »
I have recorded and performed all three - Gaspard de la Nuit, Islamey, and the Stravinsky's Petrushka. To be honest, I found the Petrushka the least difficult, Gaspard comes second, then followed by the hardest, which is Islamey. But the difficulty level is actually the same, and to identify the ranking of the three depends on the player's technical challenges.
Here's how I would rank it:
Least difficult
Le Gibet
Ondine
Danse Russe
Chez Pétrouchka
La semaine grasse
Scarbo
Islamey
Most difficult

Since I am young concert pianist, I have seen pieces that are more difficult than those three, and I played all three before the age of 15. The challenge of the Petrushka is to start it, then play it fast. Gaspard de la Nuit requires french technique and excellent finger work, but I didn't find it is technically as challenging as it is to play equally and evenly. Islamey is a piece that can easily be played into a mess. You need to have a clear structure and melody so that it doesn't sound like a array of random notes - because the piece certainly have a lot of that. The Islamey is difficult to play like music and a lot of pianists sound like too many notes going at once.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #21 on: April 06, 2021, 12:39:50 AM »
Islamey harder than the Gaspard lol. Funny joke.
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Offline music.

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #22 on: April 13, 2021, 07:13:00 PM »
Islamey harder than the Gaspard lol. Funny joke.
Oh? And why do you think that??

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #23 on: April 14, 2021, 04:20:07 AM »
Oh? And why do you think that??
I've already stated why, will you even understand why it really is harder if the answer is fully in depth? It would be a waste of my time to be so precise. Unless you actually have the facility to play both any answer is just going go over your head.
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Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #24 on: April 14, 2021, 05:39:52 PM »
I've already stated why, will you even understand why it really is harder if the answer is fully in depth? It would be a waste of my time to be so precise. Unless you actually have the facility to play both any answer is just going go over your head.
Really? Is this the best you can explain? I agree with music. here. Have you played or performed either of them? Because if you didn't, your opinion doesn't have a valid supporting reason. I can tell you mine - try playing Islamey in front of an audience. Then you have the facility to post an argument. Islamey is a piece that can easily be played as trash and your fingers also gets messier by each note if you perform it. Gaspard is less uncomfortable and less strangled, where you can actually give it voicing without dying by the end of the performance.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #25 on: April 14, 2021, 05:48:43 PM »
Really? Is this the best you can explain? I agree with music. here. Have you played or performed either of them? Because if you didn't, your opinion doesn't have a valid supporting reason. I can tell you mine - try playing Islamey in front of an audience. Then you have the facility to post an argument. Islamey is a piece that can easily be played as trash and your fingers also gets messier by each note if you perform it. Gaspard is less uncomfortable and less strangled, where you can actually give it voicing without dying by the end of the performance.
                                                         
                                        ~leethoven
Who cares about your performance stories you can make up whatever you like it doesn't add to anything. Just look at the content of the works and also the fact that gaspard is three movements. Scarbo alone is more difficult than islamey. Ravel composed scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than islamey. I already pointed out technical repetition in the islamey I'm not going to spoonfed any more info if I don't want to. People who can play both will find gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up persona.
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Online lelle

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 07:03:23 PM »
People who can play both will find gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up persona.

That's a controversial statement. What's your source?

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #27 on: April 14, 2021, 07:22:29 PM »
Tbh I don't think Islamey is super difficult. Challenging, undoubtedly, but very pianistic and should be accessible to any conservatory graduate level pianist.

Online lelle

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #28 on: April 14, 2021, 07:28:48 PM »
Hmm I know many pianists with various degrees, conservatory or university, who I'm fairly sure will not be playing Islamey anytime soon.

I'd say the biggest hindrance for most is playing all the octaves and octaves+extra note at the required tempo:

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #29 on: April 14, 2021, 07:32:38 PM »
I've read through it in the past. I don't think it would take a huge amount of effort to get it ready, but that's ultimately just my opinion.

I don't feel the same way about Gaspard.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #30 on: April 15, 2021, 01:53:05 AM »
Ronde has some sense for us! Honestly if people have the capability to play either they will realize that Gaspard is much more difficult, those who put question to this simply reveal that they are not at that standard.

That's a controversial statement. What's your source?
I thought I'd ramp up my position on this since people are being silly. What is my source lol, it is just a fact, the technical difficulty and musical challenges of the Gaspard are much greater than the Islamey. My source is myself with 37 years playing the piano experience and 25+ years teaching. I think my source is good enough. Not to mention (or wait I've mentioned it like 3 times) that Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult than Islamey, he actually had it in his mind to make it more challenging, do you think he failed? What's your source?
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Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #31 on: April 15, 2021, 03:23:52 PM »
Who cares about your performance stories you can make up whatever you like it doesn't add to anything. Just look at the content of the works and also the fact that gaspard is three movements. Scarbo alone is more difficult than islamey. Ravel composed scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than islamey. I already pointed out technical repetition in the islamey I'm not going to spoonfed any more info if I don't want to. People who can play both will find gaspard more difficult any other answer is from a made up persona.
First, Gaspard does have three movements. However, the Ondine and Le Gibet are not even close to the difficulty of Islamey. Ravel's intention of making Scarbo more difficult than the Islamey had not proven to have succeeded- I have seen MANY young piano students under 16 years old who played the ENTIRE Gaspard beautifully and fluently. Meanwhile, anyone who tries Islamey usually ends up playing it like a mess of a machine gun, with the exception of few daring masters. Even some masters refuse to touch this piece. I have watched the performance of Yuja Wang at a concert playing the Islamey and it sounded no better than the 15 year olds. The whole thing was a disaster.

While Scarbo is more difficult musically, Islamey is much more pianistic. The technical repetition in the Islamey IS what makes it difficult. Sure, you can learn the piece slow and you might get it done quicker than the Scarbo, but it's the tempo and speed that matters. Try playing 19 pages of REPEATED thirds, sixths, jumping octaves and large cords - at the given tempo. My respect if you can manage it to be clear and clean, with melodies easily heard, and you can't hide behind the pedal.

And please - try to have a civilized conversation on just facts without bluntly insulting others. People simply have different opinions and you don't have to prove others wrong to prove yourself right.  ::) A simple fact is - you can play both if you have to ability to play one.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #32 on: April 15, 2021, 03:41:43 PM »
You are saying a lot but nothing specific at all. If you really want to prove your point why don't you lay out an analysis of both pieces and prove that the technical difficulties of Islamey is more difficult than all three movements of the Gaspard. You also have the stance that even though Ravel composed Scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than Islamey he failed. Why would you question Ravel's ability as a composer and pianist?

However, the Ondine and Le Gibet are not even close to the difficulty of Islamey.
Ondine is not easy at all and has acrobatics which are quite difficult.

Ravel's intention of making Scarbo more difficult than the Islamey had not proven to have succeeded-
The proof is there that Ravel actually intended it to be more difficult. He could compare the difficulty of the two and create something that was more. He had extra information to create a work that was more difficult. So you are saying Ravel failed, I laugh at you for that comment.


I have seen MANY young piano students under 16 years old who played the ENTIRE Gaspard beautifully and fluently. Meanwhile, anyone who tries Islamey usually ends up playing it like a mess of a machine gun, with the exception of few daring masters. Even some masters refuse to touch this piece. I have watched the performance of Yuja Wang at a concert playing the Islamey and it sounded no better than the 15 year olds. The whole thing was a disaster.
A lot of writing but nothing which proves your point.


While Scarbo is more difficult musically, Islamey is much more pianistic.
Fully define what you mean by Musically and Pianistic. If something is more pianistic if fits under the hands much easier. Scarbo is more difficult musically not to mention the other two movements also challenge your expression a great deal, it is also more technically difficult since Ravel intended it to be so and did well.

The technical repetition in the Islamey IS what makes it difficult. Sure, you can learn the piece slow and you might get it done quicker than the Scarbo, but it's the tempo and speed that matters. Try playing 19 pages of REPEATED thirds, sixths, jumping octaves and large cords - at the given tempo. My respect if you can manage it to be clear and clean, with melodies easily heard, and you can't hide behind the pedal.
What about the fact that Gaspard's run time is like 2.5 times more than the Islamey? Lets take exact bars of music, what do you think is the most difficult part of Islamey and compare that to the most difficult part you think is in Scarbo. Let's see how well you know both pieces.


And please - try to have a civilized conversation on just facts without bluntly insulting others. People simply have different opinions and you don't have to prove others wrong to prove yourself right.  ::) A simple fact is - you can play both if you have to ability to play one.
                                                                                           ~leethoven
There are many made up personas that come up on pianostreet, if you feel insulted then prove me wrong. Instead of making up stories why don't you shows us what is the most difficult parts of Scarbo and Islamey, please contast these two sections and show why you think Islamey is so much more challenging. Exact bars of music please. I don't have to prove anything at all because Ravel's intention was there to make it more difficult and he was a great musician and certainly could realize his goals, if you understood how carefully he composed you would not doubt he really would have worked very hard to achieve what he wanted. So the burden of proof lies on your shoulders since you are saying Ravel failed at his attempt and didn't understand the piano enough to make something more difficult.
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Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #33 on: April 15, 2021, 10:28:41 PM »
You are saying a lot but nothing specific at all. If you really want to prove your point why don't you lay out an analysis of both pieces and prove that the technical difficulties of Islamey is more difficult than all three movements of the Gaspard. You also have the stance that even though Ravel composed Scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than Islamey he failed. Why would you question Ravel's ability as a composer and pianist?
Ondine is not easy at all and has acrobatics which are quite difficult.
The proof is there that Ravel actually intended it to be more difficult. He could compare the difficulty of the two and create something that was more. He had extra information to create a work that was more difficult. So you are saying Ravel failed, I laugh at you for that comment.

A lot of writing but nothing which proves your point.

Fully define what you mean by Musically and Pianistic. If something is more pianistic if fits under the hands much easier. Scarbo is more difficult musically not to mention the other two movements also challenge your expression a great deal, it is also more technically difficult since Ravel intended it to be so and did well.
What about the fact that Gaspard's run time is like 2.5 times more than the Islamey? Lets take exact bars of music, what do you think is the most difficult part of Islamey and compare that to the most difficult part you think is in Scarbo. Let's see how well you know both pieces.

There are many made up personas that come up on pianostreet, if you feel insulted then prove me wrong. Instead of making up stories why don't you shows us what is the most difficult parts of Scarbo and Islamey, please contast these two sections and show why you think Islamey is so much more challenging. Exact bars of music please. I don't have to prove anything at all because Ravel's intention was there to make it more difficult and he was a great musician and certainly could realize his goals, if you understood how carefully he composed you would not doubt he really would have worked very hard to achieve what he wanted. So the burden of proof lies on your shoulders since you are saying Ravel failed at his attempt and didn't understand the piano enough to make something more difficult.

1. Composers compose pieces to be played. How difficult a piece is depends solely on the player. I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. No one should judge a piece just because the composer wanted it to be more difficult, it all depends on the players technical weaknesses. How can you just say he succeeded because HE said he would? That's like baking a cake wanting it to be more flavored than your neighbor's cake, and you tell everyone your intention. If you succeeded in making it more favorable, that's not by YOU saying that - it's determined by the person who EATS it. That's the same thing as pieces. Ravel didn't fail, some people agree with him. But just like the cake example, others might still find the neighbor's cake much more tasty. Is it that difficult to understand?

2. If you really think Ondine and Le Gibet are more difficult than Islamey... lol.

3. The Gaspard is a 'flowing' piece. It might be long in time, but it isn't tiring for your muscles because you move around instead of holding your hand in one strangled position.

4. You must be a terrible musician if you think I can prove a piece difficult by some few bars.  ::) I can, however, tell you the PAGES I found difficult. In Scarbo, the Eflat section before the Un peu retenu was one, and I found Tonjours en accelerant with the last two pages pretty hard. I say those pages mainly because a few years ago when I learned this, a minor weakness of mine was fast small to tiny cords and thirds. I also took a pretty long time figuring out the fingering of Scarbo, and I also took a quite long time to get the whole thing memorized. You can easily get the repeated singular notes done well as long as you get used to it. Same with Ondine. The main difficulty of Scarbo is to play it clear, but with a devilish feel to it. In other words, Scarbo needs much more tone color and nuance than Islamey, and that's what I mean by musically. Islamey is at its peak of difficulty after the Andantino espressivo all the way to the end. It gets harder and harder because your fingers are strangled after the repetition. To be honest, I find the page right after the slow section most difficult because of the voicing of the fast small chords. Allegro vivo is one of MY strengths. The presto section to the end is the most difficult part of the piece. This is because your hands are in one large position while moving fast, so when you reach that part, you're pretty much dead tired. And that's not it. Balakirev tells you presto, so you gotta move even faster. That's what I mean by pianistic.

Again, that's just my opinion. Based on my technique. Nothing to do with Ravel, or other people. It's the PLAYER'S strengths and weakness that determine which is more difficult, so Ravel's opinion is not in the picture.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #34 on: April 15, 2021, 11:31:39 PM »
1. Composers compose pieces to be played. How difficult a piece is depends solely on the player.
Rubbish. The experience of difficulty is different with each person but the composer can certainly write something difficult on purpose.

I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. No one should judge a piece just because the composer wanted it to be more difficult, it all depends on the players technical weaknesses.
But the question is whether Gaspard is more difficult than Islamey (which it is) and we certainly can see a difference in difficulty in the two. Someone might find Fur Elise easier than Mary had a little lamb but most people will think you are a little crazy for saying things like that.

How can you just say he succeeded because HE said he would?
Because Ravel DEVOTED his life to composition and writing music for the piano. You tend to think that it is all subjective and nothing is controlled.

Ravel didn't fail, some people agree with him.
Not SOME, the vast majority your opinion that Gaspard is easier than Islamey is highly marginalized.

But just like the cake example, others might still find the neighbor's cake much more tasty. Is it that difficult to understand?
Your association is utterly weak, I told you to take some actual bars of music and compare them, you are totally avoiding that which is highly amusing.

If you really think Ondine and Le Gibet are more difficult than Islamey... lol.
You said they are "not even close to the difficulty of Islamey" which is a stupid statement.

The Gaspard is a 'flowing' piece.
A made up undefined term.

It might be long in time, but it isn't tiring for your muscles because you move around instead of holding your hand in one strangled position.
LOOOOOOOOL!!!! Wow great analysis.

You must be a terrible musician if you think I can prove a piece difficult by some few bars.  ::)
You must be very short sighted if you think it cannot be revealed that way.

I can, however, tell you the PAGES I found difficult.
How is this any different from actualy taking bars of music?

In Scarbo, the Eflat section before the Un peu retenu was one, and I found Tonjours en accelerant with the last two pages pretty hard. .....Scarbo needs much more tone color and nuance than Islamey, and that's what I mean by musically....... Islamey is at its peak of difficulty after the Andantino espressivo all the way to the end......I find the page right after the slow section most difficult because of the voicing of the fast small chords. ...... The presto section to the end is the most difficult part of the piece. This is because your hands are in one large position while moving fast, so when you reach that part, you're pretty much dead tired. And that's not it. Balakirev tells you presto, so you gotta move even faster. That's what I mean by pianistic.
Your definition is pianistic is wrong. You took like 11 pages of the Islamey saying it's so difficult and like 3 pages of Scarbo? Lol you are amusing. Come on exact bars of music and compare contrast, or is that asking too much of you? You are just rattling off your opinions on sections without COMPARING the two, that is not convincing me that the Islamey is more difficult at all. You think you will be tired after merely playing the Islamey compared to 2.5 times longer playing of the Gaspard? Scarbo alone is more difficult than Islamey but to play the other two movements then the Scarbo makes it even more challenging.

Again, that's just my opinion. Based on my technique. Nothing to do with Ravel, or other people. It's the PLAYER'S strengths and weakness that determine which is more difficult, so Ravel's opinion is not in the picture.
His "opinion"? He actually devoted his life to composition and writing for the piano. So if he had the intention to write something more difficult than the Islamey he certainly could have done so no problems. Even I could also write something more difficult than Scarbo if I wanted to, it wouldn't sound anywhere near as artistic and beautiful but it would easily be more difficult. Writing something difficult is not difficult at all so Ravel EASILY can manage that.



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Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #35 on: April 15, 2021, 11:46:32 PM »
Rubbish. The experience of difficulty is different with each person but the composer can certainly write something difficult on purpose.
But the question is whether Gaspard is more difficult than Islamey (which it is) and we certainly can see a difference in difficulty in the two. Someone might find Fur Elise easier than Mary had a little lamb but most people will think you are a little crazy for saying things like that.
Because Ravel DEVOTED his life to composition and writing music for the piano. You tend to think that it is all subjective and nothing is controlled.
Not SOME, the vast majority your opinion that Gaspard is easier than Islamey is highly marginalized.
Your association is utterly weak, I told you to take some actual bars of music and compare them, you are totally avoiding that which is highly amusing.
You said they are "not even close to the difficulty of Islamey" which is a stupid statement.
A made up undefined term.
LOOOOOOOOL!!!! Wow great analysis.
You must be very short sighted if you think it cannot be revealed that way.
How is this any different from actualy taking bars of music?
Your definition is pianistic is wrong. You took like 11 pages of the Islamey saying it's so difficult and like 3 pages of Scarbo? Lol you are amusing. Come on exact bars of music and compare contrast, or is that asking too much of you? You are just rattling off your opinions on sections without COMPARING the two, that is not convincing me that the Islamey is more difficult at all. You think you will be tired after merely playing the Islamey compared to 2.5 times longer playing of the Gaspard? Scarbo alone is more difficult than Islamey but to play the other two movements then the Scarbo makes it even more challenging.
His "opinion"? He actually devoted his life to composition and writing for the piano. So if he had the intention to write something more difficult than the Islamey he certainly could have done so no problems. Even I could also write something more difficult than Scarbo if I wanted to, it wouldn't sound anywhere near as artistic and beautiful but it would easily be more difficult. Writing something difficult is not difficult at all so Ravel EASILY can manage that.





I am utterly surprised by the fact that I am still replying to you. How about YOU "contrast" the most difficult "bars" of the two pieces to show Gaspard is harder? I gave you mine. Your turn to prove me wrong. Do not include Ravel in your analysis, please.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #36 on: April 16, 2021, 12:33:19 AM »
You didn't compare anything specific at all, like 3 pages of Scarbo vs 11 pages of Islamey, if you don't want to take this serious and contrast actual bars of music to show how Islamey is so much more difficult than Scarbo then thats up to you. I dont have to show anything at all because I am satisfied that Ravel's intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey was successful, he was a great composer and pianist, of a very high standard, he laboured on his works a huge amount and I would not put question to his skills and state that he failed in his endevour to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey. You have stated he failed so it is up to you to prove that he did.
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Offline leethoven

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #37 on: April 16, 2021, 03:06:09 PM »
You didn't compare anything specific at all, like 3 pages of Scarbo vs 11 pages of Islamey, if you don't want to take this serious and contrast actual bars of music to show how Islamey is so much more difficult than Scarbo then thats up to you. I dont have to show anything at all because I am satisfied that Ravel's intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey was successful, he was a great composer and pianist, of a very high standard, he laboured on his works a huge amount and I would not put question to his skills and state that he failed in his endevour to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey. You have stated he failed so it is up to you to prove that he did.

I don't want to waste my time, so I won't reply to each little ridiculous point of yours that says nothing. Here are three general things that I hope your brain can absorb.

One. Please show me exactly where I stated Ravel failed. Pray tell. I already told you I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. Your assumptions are insane.

Two. This topic about whether Islamey is harder than Gaspard (which it is) is SUBJECTIVE. Everyone has different opinions and I don't need to prove myself to say my opinion. After I played both pieces, I wrote from first-handed experience that I found Islamey more difficult. You have your judgment, and I have mine. End of story.

Three. Since you must have found it difficult to acknowledge the simple fact that difficulty depends on each player, I will give you a conclusion for you: if you can play one, you can play both.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #38 on: April 17, 2021, 01:08:06 AM »
I don't want to waste my time, so I won't reply to each little ridiculous point of yours that says nothing. Here are three general things that I hope your brain can absorb.
I mean your ideas are crazy so it is hard to absorb. It's ok if you don't want to reply but please don't get too upset you are supposed to have fun when responding :P

One. Please show me exactly where I stated Ravel failed. Pray tell. I already told you I never questioned Ravel's ability as a composer. Your assumptions are insane.
Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult than Islamey, you disagree with that, thus you imply that Ravel failed at trying to compose something harder than Islamey.

Two. This topic about whether Islamey is harder than Gaspard (which it is) is SUBJECTIVE. Everyone has different opinions and I don't need to prove myself to say my opinion.
Like I said crazy people will think Fur Elise is easier than Mary had a little Lamb. The content of the Gaspard is more difficult than Islamey. If you just want to say "it's my opinion" then thats fine, it is a highly marginalized opinion.

After I played both pieces, I wrote from first-handed experience that I found Islamey more difficult. You have your judgment, and I have mine. End of story.
But Islamey is not more difficult since Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult. I asked you to compare the difficulty between the two, you used like 3 pages or Scarbo vs 11 of Islamey, really weird and unusual.

Three. Since you must have found it difficult to acknowledge the simple fact that difficulty depends on each player, I will give you a conclusion for you: if you can play one, you can play both.
People can experience different challenges but overall difficulty doesn't change, you are suggesting that people can say things like "Ohhhhh Fantasie Impromptu from Chopin is much easier than Fur Elise and don't you dare say I cannot identify as such!!!!" I want to put questions to ideas that might go against the grain, it really doesn't matter in the end, both gaspard and islamey will be out of reach for most pianists thus the difficulty really is irrelevant.
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Offline music.

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #39 on: April 28, 2021, 03:59:36 AM »
You didn't compare anything specific at all, like 3 pages of Scarbo vs 11 pages of Islamey, if you don't want to take this serious and contrast actual bars of music to show how Islamey is so much more difficult than Scarbo then thats up to you. I dont have to show anything at all because I am satisfied that Ravel's intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey was successful, he was a great composer and pianist, of a very high standard, he laboured on his works a huge amount and I would not put question to his skills and state that he failed in his endevour to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey. You have stated he failed so it is up to you to prove that he did.

I am laughing so hard right now  ;D ;D ;D. This has to be the most foolish claim I've ever seen. Your one and only source is "Ravel"... LOL. Most of the time, pianists know a piece better than the composer did. You decided Gaspard is harder because "Ravel says so" - such a weak claim that I can't even argue. You are probably the kind of person that would drink hand sanitizer because "Trump says that it cures the covid".

You made my morning very amusing.
                                                                                             

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 04:48:19 AM »
You make my day even more amusing since you are creating accounts and responding to the same thread lol. Why dont you just use your leethoven account? You so triggered.

I am laughing so hard right now  ;D ;D ;D. This has to be the most foolish claim I've ever seen.
Oh the melodrama, do you live under a rock?

Your one and only source is "Ravel"... LOL
He is an excellent composer are you saying he was unable to compose something more difficult when his intention was to do so? You are ridiculous. Composing something difficult is not that difficult at all, the fact that Ravel did that AND created a musical master piece is where his genius lies. You obviously have no idea what a genius Ravel was so please leave the forum with all your fake accounts.

Most of the time, pianists know a piece better than the composer did.
LOL!

You decided Gaspard is harder because "Ravel says so" - such a weak claim that I can't even argue.
That's right you can't argue it because it is such a strong claim. Ravel devoted his life to composition, prove that Scarbo is easier than Islamey then if you think you know the works better than the composers themselves. Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh whats that? You cant? Awww too bad.

You are probably the kind of person that would drink hand sanitizer because "Trump says that it cures the covid".
lol is that an attempt at insulting me? Wow I am so hurt... I might cut myself now.


You made my morning very amusing.                                                                                         
Well I am sure creating fake accounts is more amusing for you though?
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Online dogperson

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 11:22:40 AM »
I am laughing so hard right now  ;D ;D ;D. This has to be the most foolish claim I've ever seen. Your one and only source is "Ravel"... LOL. Most of the time, pianists know a piece better than the composer did. You decided Gaspard is harder because "Ravel says so" - such a weak claim that I can't even argue. You are probably the kind of person that would drink hand sanitizer because "Trump says that it cures the covid".

You made my morning very amusing.
                                                                                           


Whatever screen name you use, when you make the discussion a personal insult, you lose all credibility. 

Offline diomedes

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 12:19:58 PM »
Quote
Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh whats that? You cant? Awww too bad.
Yea I think that's what I was more looking for with the original post rather than backseat drivers saying if they had the ability to play them this would be difficult. Big waste of time

To me that it is historically stated that ravel intended it to be (more than islamey) difficult doesn't mean much I think different people with different abilities will react differently. I'm sorta curious is there historical documentation of that?
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #43 on: April 28, 2021, 01:20:39 PM »
The fact that Ravel wrote Scarbo with the intention of it being more difficult than Islamey needs to be taken into account whether one likes it or not. Because he intended it to be more difficult he of course was successful since he is not just any composer we are talking about. If you tried to compare a different piece which he had no intention to be more difficult you would then need to actually present the reasons clearly. Ravel made the intention and he is a genius composer who would have no problems completing that. Ravel so carefully, slowly and painstakingly composed his works, he took such great care much more so than the vast majority of composers that ever lived thus his output is so much smaller.

To actually show that the Scarbo is more difficult than the Islamey one needs to understand the technical requirements for both (be able to play them), if you try you will find that there is far far more repetition in Islamey than there is in Scarbo in terms of technical tools used. The musical expession content of Scarbo also has huge variation compared to the Islamey, one only needs to listen to the two pieces and hear the vast amount of musical ideas in Scarbo vs the more repetitive/building on top of type ideas of the Islamey.

I am hesitant to actually analyze the pieces and demonstrate why, it takes a bit of work and I don't really think many people would appreciate it, but if someone is very confident that Islamey is more difficult than Scarbo they really do need to demonstrate why with exact bars. I am glad I don't have to do such things to defend the Scarbo since Ravel's composition intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey is quite powerful. I think the 99% of other pianists who cannot play either pieces and are wondering which is more difficult simply should accept that Ravel was successful with his carefully crafted composition.

If you have judged piano competitions before where there is an open selection you do need to realize that if one person presents a piece which shows more of what the piano can do than another, they will have a higher score potential. Scarbo shows what the piano can do more so than the Islamey which heavily leans towards the Scarbo being more difficult.
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Offline ivorycherry

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 01:48:26 PM »
Guys, chill...
Whatever screen name you use, when you make the discussion a personal insult, you lose all credibility. 
Totally agree.

Offline music.

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #45 on: April 28, 2021, 02:54:20 PM »
You make my day even more amusing since you are creating accounts and responding to the same thread lol. Why dont you just use your leethoven account? You so triggered.
Oh the melodrama, do you live under a rock?
He is an excellent composer are you saying he was unable to compose something more difficult when his intention was to do so? You are ridiculous. Composing something difficult is not that difficult at all, the fact that Ravel did that AND created a musical master piece is where his genius lies. You obviously have no idea what a genius Ravel was so please leave the forum with all your fake accounts.
LOL!
That's right you can't argue it because it is such a strong claim. Ravel devoted his life to composition, prove that Scarbo is easier than Islamey then if you think you know the works better than the composers themselves. Show us exact bars and explain how the technique in Islamey is harder. Oh whats that? You cant? Awww too bad.
lol is that an attempt at insulting me? Wow I am so hurt... I might cut myself now.

Well I am sure creating fake accounts is more amusing for you though?

I don't know who the heck leethoven is. I can't compare either of these pieces because I am a piano student(just got into college), and I have only played Undine and just bits of Islamey. Most of my teachers and college professors, however, have all played both, and they played the Gaspard much earlier than Islamey. I don't have the experience, but neither do you. My teachers said if you start first with the Gaspard, you may struggle with learning the Islamey, but not vise versa. I trust my teachers very much. Plus, Scriabin severely injured his right hand in attempt to play the Islamey. Have you watched any of the Chopin International Competitions? Different pianists there plays the same piece differently. Chopin himself intended many things, but when there is a different opinion, judges award these. I have never touched the Scarbo, but I know that same with chopin's etudes, if you struggle doesn't mean everyone struggle. And you can't tell a piece's difficulty simply by the composer - I bet Ravel never even touched Islamey, and he only allowed Gieseking to play his Gaspard. Which means Ravel probably never performed his own Scarbo. Pianists play those pieces their entire lives. Surely they know better?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #46 on: April 29, 2021, 01:32:37 AM »
I don't know who the heck leethoven is.
It's you.

I don't have the experience, but neither do you.
Ok then please reveal to everyone what my experience is then, you talk as if you know me lol.

My teachers said if you start first with the Gaspard, you may struggle with learning the Islamey, but not vise versa.
Nice story, your made up teacher should have realized the arpgeggio techniques of the Scarbo is extremely difficult and no amount of Islamey will help prepare you for that.

I trust my teachers very much.
I am sure you trust lots of things that are in your imagination.

And you can't tell a piece's difficulty simply by the composer - I bet Ravel never even touched Islamey, and he only allowed Gieseking to play his Gaspard. Which means Ravel probably never performed his own Scarbo. Pianists play those pieces their entire lives. Surely they know better?
They surely do know better since everything you said here is just a made up story in your own head. Gosh you are not a very elaborate troll.
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Offline music.

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #47 on: May 01, 2021, 02:34:24 AM »
It's you.
Ok then please reveal to everyone what my experience is then, you talk as if you know me lol.
Nice story, your made up teacher should have realized the arpgeggio techniques of the Scarbo is extremely difficult and no amount of Islamey will help prepare you for that.
I am sure you trust lots of things that are in your imagination.
They surely do know better since everything you said here is just a made up story in your own head. Gosh you are not a very elaborate troll.

You do realize that two people with the same opinion doesn't equal same person, right? Besides, you also talk like you know me. You can argue with me but don't insulting my teachers as well. I take that personally. And you are insulting leethoven.
And when since I said I thought Islamey is more difficult? I am trying to tell you that your point may be right, but your reasoning is utterly weak. I am in no position to judge since I haven't played these, but you act like you own the opinion and anyone who opposes equals insanity.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #48 on: May 02, 2021, 01:34:42 AM »
You do realize that two people with the same opinion doesn't equal same person, right?
Whats wrong? Upset that I uncovered that you have multiple accounts? Don't cry now QQ. This "music" account of yours doesn't have the same opinion, it just came on to try and troll and abuse me but it's failing. But keep trying, if you know my history I will respond forever until you give up I am just that stubborn.

Besides, you also talk like you know me.
I don't talk to you, nor do I pretend to know you like you try to pretend with me.

You can argue with me but don't insulting my teachers as well
You don't even have a teacher, it is all made up in your head.

I take that personally.
Good, now what?

And you are insulting leethoven.
It is just your other persona, and also I don't insult anyway, pot calling the kettle black? Lol hilarious.

And when since I said I thought Islamey is more difficult?
When you came on your other account and pretended.

I am trying to tell you that your point may be right, but your reasoning is utterly weak.
My point is correct on two accounts, that Ravel composed something more difficult than the Islamey and you have fake accounts.

I am in no position to judge since I haven't played these, but you act like you own the opinion and anyone who opposes equals insanity.
You are arguing with someone then with far more piano knowledge than you will ever have. I do own the answer here and fully, if you oppose me you are utterly wrong, but then again I have put out the challenge to prove that the Islamey is more difficult with actual bars, I like proposing that challenge because then it weeds out the morons who actually dont know anything at all, awww watch them run away with the tails between their legs.


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Offline music.

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Re: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey
«Reply #49 on: May 03, 2021, 09:31:27 PM »
Whats wrong? Upset that I uncovered that you have multiple accounts? Don't cry now QQ. This "music" account of yours doesn't have the same opinion, it just came on to try and troll and abuse me but it's failing. But keep trying, if you know my history I will respond forever until you give up I am just that stubborn.
I don't talk to you, nor do I pretend to know you like you try to pretend with me.
You don't even have a teacher, it is all made up in your head.
Good, now what?
It is just your other persona, and also I don't insult anyway, pot calling the kettle black? Lol hilarious.
When you came on your other account and pretended.
My point is correct on two accounts, that Ravel composed something more difficult than the Islamey and you have fake accounts.
You are arguing with someone then with far more piano knowledge than you will ever have. I do own the answer here and fully, if you oppose me you are utterly wrong, but then again I have put out the challenge to prove that the Islamey is more difficult with actual bars, I like proposing that challenge because then it weeds out the morons who actually dont know anything at all, awww watch them run away with the tails between their legs.




You are running of ideas, lostinidlewonder. Your reply is starting to sound all over the place. Come on, you can do better than random insults.

You think I would create two different accounts just to troll and abuse you? lol You think that highly of yourself? Oh! But you do. You are so arrogant that you claim to have far more piano knowledge than I will ever have without knowing me at all and without feeling at least a tinnnny amount of shame.

I told you to keep my teachers out of it. Your friends are also made up ideas in your head, if you ever happen to think that you have any.

Please feel free to read all of your replies and see if you created one paragraph without an insult.

Now let's get to some piano logic that you've clearly been avoiding. Ravel would never be so shallow to compose a piece just to make it more difficult than something else. That would be low of him as a composer. His intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey is a rumor. There are no documents, letters, or other statements that prove its more than just a rumor. We don't even know if he actually said it. Even if he did, it was probably just said as a joke with no further meaning. He would never be so unintelligent and unmusical to write a piece solely to beat another. With that out of the question, there's no solid prove that you wrote that supports your opinion of Gaspard being more difficult.

If you really think that you know far more piano knowledge than me, then why don't you stop your nonsensical rubbish and give me a logical explanation?

awww run away with the tails between your legs