You are running of ideas, lostinidlewonder. Your reply is starting to sound all over the place. Come on, you can do better than random insults. You think I would create two different accounts just to troll and abuse you? lol You think that highly of yourself? Oh! But you do. You are so arrogant that you claim to have far more piano knowledge than I will ever have without knowing me at all and without feeling at least a tinnnny amount of shame. I told you to keep my teachers out of it. Your friends are also made up ideas in your head, if you ever happen to think that you have any.Please feel free to read all of your replies and see if you created one paragraph without an insult.Now let's get to some piano logic that you've clearly been avoiding. Ravel would never be so shallow to compose a piece just to make it more difficult than something else. That would be low of him as a composer. His intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey is a rumor. There are no documents, letters, or other statements that prove its more than just a rumor. We don't even know if he actually said it. Even if he did, it was probably just said as a joke with no further meaning. He would never be so unintelligent and unmusical to write a piece solely to beat another. With that out of the question, there's no solid prove that you wrote that supports your opinion of Gaspard being more difficult.If you really think that you know far more piano knowledge than me, then why don't you stop your nonsensical rubbish and give me a logical explanation? awww run away with the tails between your legs
You are running of ideas, lostinidlewonder. Your reply is starting to sound all over the place. Come on, you can do better than random insults.
You think I would create two different accounts just to troll and abuse you?
lol You think that highly of yourself? Oh! But you do. You are so arrogant that you claim to have far more piano knowledge than I will ever have without knowing me at all and without feeling at least a tinnnny amount of shame.
I told you to keep my teachers out of it. Your friends are also made up ideas in your head, if you ever happen to think that you have any.
Please feel free to read all of your replies and see if you created one paragraph without an insult.
Now let's get to some piano logic that you've clearly been avoiding. Ravel would never be so shallow to compose a piece just to make it more difficult than something else. That would be low of him as a composer. His intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey is a rumor. There are no documents, letters, or other statements that prove its more than just a rumor. We don't even know if he actually said it. Even if he did, it was probably just said as a joke with no further meaning. He would never be so unintelligent and unmusical to write a piece solely to beat another. With that out of the question, there's no solid prove that you wrote that supports your opinion of Gaspard being more difficult.
If you really think that you know far more piano knowledge than me, then why don't you stop your nonsensical rubbish and give me a logical explanation?
awww run away with the tails between your legs
Either one of you could just decide to let it go.
Is this still going on?I could have learnt Islamey properly in the time this thread has been active btw Scriabin hurt his hand over not just Islamey, but the Liszt Don Juan, which I think is a LOT harder than Islamey (and yes, I have spent time with it, so that's not just idle comment).Now how about the Liapunov Islamey tribute piece, ie Lezghinka?
Please post an example of insult everything is merely responding to your very own insults. Again you are the pot calling the kettle black. I'm responding to your confused rants so if my replies sound to you random then you are only reading replies to your own ideas, aww what a shame. You are pretending to be insulted perhaps to try and then report me to moderators lol. That is a common tactic by internet trolls. You fling dung at someone and then think it's funny to then pretend you are being insulted? So dumb.And probably more and you probably do this elsewhere too, you must be so bored. I don't have to "think" you abused me I know you did, not that it really matters bcause I really don't care what you have to say. But then it's funny you pretend to be insulted yourself lol.You admitted you cannot play either piece under discussion in this thread, thus you are far away from ever being near my piano experience, it's just a truth, does that hurt you? It is like a primary school student arguing maths with a college maths professor, it's just what it's like in reality.Gosh did you forget to take your medication today? What friends? You didn't tell me to leave anyone out of anything but if you do I will certainly keep them in. Your teacher is made up and you introduced those characters to this thread lol. Stop talking about your fake teachers then! please quote my insults, feel free so very free lol.Well you're just plain wrong, there's nothing else to it, anyone that believes anything you say here is just as delusional as yourself. You just make up ideas and run with it, that is what crazy people do or internet trolls, you are not very effective though since your made up stories are paper thin and flimsy if anyone tests any part of it.Oh how excellent I've triggered you. Yes I am better at piano than you and have much more experience I've played piano longer than you have been alive. Why are you so hurt about this lol?!You eventually will, let's see how long it takes. That quote is in regards to those running away when I asked for exact bars to discuss. I have full knowledge to debate whatever bars come up and will provide counter examples to show scarbo is more difficult. Until someone does that they all are running away with the tail between their legs. Come on ask your pretend teachers to tell you which bars to prove islamey is more difficult I will counter it immediately with what is more difficult in scarbo.
I don't need to admit I haven't played both pieces.
leethoven wrote that he can play both and he told you that he thought Islamey is more difficult than Gaspard. D
Do you even know what I'm trying to tell you? Not which piece is more difficult. I never made that claim, so why should I take bars of the music and compare? Plus, I didn't even play both, and I never told you Islamey is more difficult. That, my dear, is leethoven. I am trying to tell you your reasoning is bizarre and your opinion that people who oppose you are wrong is foolish. You, however, still believe that you are arguing with the same person.
Who's the troll again? I counted 10 times more personal insults from you than I've ever wrote.
My teachers have graduated from Moscow Conservatory and Indiana University. With them, I played ALL of Shubert sonatas - something you will never be able to do.
If you believe Ravel wrote Gaspard just to make it more difficult than Islamey, you are also telling me you believe Ravel is a shallow composer.
I'm not taking the thread seriously because if we take such advanced pieces to analyse who is going to understand it??? Those who would don't need this thread to tell them anything in the first place.
...You are continuing this thread with an insulting student who has not played either but ‘trusts his teacher’. No offense, but this appears ludicrous that you would feel the need to continue this. It is not a discussion with your peers.
Absolutely!
You already did do earlier or have you already forgotten? Let's focus on the account you are currently using. My reasoning is the well known fact that Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult than Islamey, if you want to make up stories that isn't true then you can do that but that is just in the little world in your made up mind so it is you who is being foolish. Quote all my insults and highlight its context then please, you are just playing the victim game, which is a well known tool for internet trolls, they abuse someone then quickly revert to being insulted and abused themselves, look at your first reply to me in this thread, full of insults, again you are the pot calling the kettle black, an idiom you should study. Your made up teachers are amazing wow! Again you think you know my ability, please reveal to everyone my entire experience and why I cant play the Schubert Sonatas lol. That is an illogical conclusion and the reason why you are confused.
Your arguing like a five years old, sweetie.
My first reply? Interesting, because you have posted way too many replies before that full of insults.
You are the one who started to question my ability like you know me, telling me my experience is made up blah blah blah.
So why are you so triggered when I questioned yours?
If you are so experienced as a musician, explain to me the math and science before Bach's composing, decipher each one of Mahler's beautiful symphonies, even interpret all of Shubert's sonatas and why they are the trademark of music to the highest level of simplicity. Start with one of them, they are actually the beginning for true professionals. Then you can try to give me personal insults.
As a musician, you should be able to understand and acknowledge that people will have different opinions as you do. But you can't see that. And please stop being so obvious about ignoring anything logical.
LIW's argument is that Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult than Islamey and since Ravel was a genius as a composer, there's no doubt that he achieved that intention.Your argument is that different pianists rank the difficulty of pieces differently, based on what is personally more or less difficult for them.My opinion about which of those is a better argument is not influenced by which one I saw most recently. Nor, I suspect, is anybody else's. So there's no advantage to getting the last word. If your argument is more convincing, the other side's getting the last word won't hurt, and if it's not, getting the last word yourself won't help.
My opinion about which of those is a better argument is not influenced by which one I saw most recently. Nor, I suspect, is anybody else's. So there's no advantage to getting the last word. If your argument is more convincing, the other side's getting the last word won't hurt, and if it's not, getting the last word yourself won't help.
His argument, however, pushes anyone who believes Islamey is more difficult to feel like their opinion is false and idiotic. My last word will happen when he realizes that pianists are different and that he should accept that.
The only other user I believe who can play this who is responding in this thread is ronde and you can see he clearly respects the difficulty of Scarbo compared to the Islamey. Those who clearly can play both of the piece will always come to this conclusion, the overall weight of difficulty is quite clear to notice. It is however very cumbersome to explain this to those who cannot play the piece. It is not just a matter of saying these 10 pages are more difficult than these 3 pages, take the passage of what you think is the most challenging parts of both pieces and explain the process of learning both, when you reveal that you will see the difference in work load. However this cannot be appreciated by those who cannot do either, if both are impossible the difficulty is not understandable. Those who have the technical capability to understand the difference between the two tasks will clearly notice the differnece in workload. So this is not a matter of opinion at all if one wants to be precise. If you want to give a vague answer then yes it is depends on the individual, but if you have a sample space of 100 people who can play both pieces at mastery I would bet heavily than 99% of them would say Scarbo is more difficult, those who don't would need to have a very unusual musical path which they would have to reveal for it to make sense. It is not just a matter of let's believe them. I'm ready to debate the issue in much more detail with specific bars if those who think Islamey is more difficult. It is not a matter of opinion that Islamey would be more difficult than the whole of Gaspard or even the Scarbo. The Islamey falls quite short if one compares the variation of technique it uses (which has multiple repetitions) to the variation of technique used in the Gaspard. The musicality of the Gaspard is much more various and challenging compared to the musical requirements to express the Islamey. You don't need to be able to play either piece to appreciate this.So anyone saying that it is a matter of opinion simply doesn't have the facility to play both of these pieces.Those who say Islamey is more difficult don't know what they are talking about, if they really can play both pieces at mastery they will be concrete, however the only attempt at being concrete did not reveal anything at all about the difference in workload between the two pieces. Highlight the process that it takes to master a certain passage, compare the two, give any passage from the Islamey and I will crush it with the difficulty of the Scarbo.
If you had replied with this logic earlier I wouldn't be debating with you. Islamey is made and played by virtuosos such as Cziffra, Lang Lang, Brendel and Pogorelich. Search Scarbo and it is played by way too many people. Ravel requires french technique, and once you've been trained by a french way of teaching, Scarbo is and the entire Gaspard will be quite comfortable. You may have learned Scarbo, but you probably didn't play it with the classic french hands the Paris Conservator teaches. Even though you may actually take longer time to master such technique, once you do, you will have no problem with Gaspard. Islamey I learned without the need to spend time to learn a new way of nuance, but practicing it is awkward and there is no technique to help it to fit under the hands comfortably. Ondine was relatively easier to me after I visited some French teachers during my student exchange, and it managed to play itself effortlessly after I understood how it works.
If you had replied with this logic earlier I wouldn't be debating with you.
Ravel requires french technique, and once you've been trained by a french way of teaching, Scarbo is and the entire Gaspard will be quite comfortable.
You may have learned Scarbo, but you probably didn't play it with the classic french hands the Paris Conservator teaches.
Even though you may actually take longer time to master such technique, once you do, you will have no problem with Gaspard. Islamey I learned without the need to spend time to learn a new way of nuance, but practicing it is awkward and there is no technique to help it to fit under the hands comfortably.
Ondine was relatively easier to me after I visited some French teachers during my student exchange, and it managed to play itself effortlessly after I understood how it works.
I'm interested in all things french technique. Could you share a couple of words about what you learned and how it works?
I am merely repeating what I have been all along, the only addition is that those could reveal workload. This is a really vague answer, there is no such thing as French technique unless you want to enlighten us. You specifically would want to study a lot of Ravel's music to understand his language and feel at the keyboard, specific Debussy works wouldn't go astray too.I could humor you here and be nice but I'm not going to since lelle has done so. You simply have reverted back to your mad thinking. There is no secret classical french hands. Errr, you forgot your story that you didn't play either piece lol. You are not even being careful with your story telling, your age estimation level is falling.Oh please do reveal this secret hidden french technique that makes french music so easy!!! Wow!!
Please reread my replies. I told you I have played bits of Islamey, but I have never touched the Scarbo or the Le Gibet.
You clearly stated: Quote from: music. on May 01, 2021, 10:34:24 AMI am in no position to judge since I haven't played these...Now you are saying you have played the Islamey, you are lying through your teeth.
I told you I haven't played the entire Islamey
You did you said you learned it: "Islamey I learned without the need to spend time to learn a new way of nuance".
Are you saying that playing the first 6 pages of a piece doesn't count as "learning it"?
I'm not even interested in the use of the word "learning" since you clearly used the word, "played" initially: Quote from: music. on May 01, 2021, 10:34:24 AMI am in no position to judge since I haven't played these...You have not played either Scarbo or Islamey now you are saying you have played 6 pages. Your stories are all over the place.
Playing a piece means learning the whole thing. I would never judge a piece until I played it - meaning complete it.
This applies to Gaspard as well. I am in no position to judge Gaspard because I've only learned one movement. One movement and six pages cannot sum up a piece that is much longer.
You are backstepping, there is no going back that you said right at the start quite clearly that you have NOT PLAYED either piece. Full stop. You didn't even mention you had any experiencing playing any part of the Islamey your initial response was you have not play it, full stop. You are adding to your story to just fit your game, sorry that doesn't work, your believablity goes down. Again you are adding to your story to try and justify some kind of response. No one cares if you can play x y or z, you started trying to ineffectively debate me with insults and then made up stories that Ravel's intention to make Scarbo more difficult than Islamey is not true. You then make up some kind of secret french technique that makes playing Gaspard much easier but of course there is no counter technique to make the Islamey more easier right? There is no secret technique of school of thought you are trying to make up.
Look, lostinidlewonder, doesn't mean you've never heard of somethings means that it doesn't exist.
You're saying I am backstepping, but you've never answered any of my questions yourself.
When I asked you to show your musical knowledge with Bach, Mahler and Shubert, you avoided it.
When I gave you the reasoning that Ravel's intention is a rumor, you avoided it as well.
You should also learn to face topics that you have no chance of explaining.
When you say I am insulting you, you should look at yourself and see if you are any better.
French technique is not the France's way, but the old French Master's way. French masters invented such technique and passed it down. They were the heads of the Paris Conservator so that's why its passed down till today. If you ask french people, they will be confused because it is not a technique of their country. The technique belongs to Paris Conservator where it is passed down.
I don't make things up, I read and experience these and that's where I got my information. It doesn't mean you are uneducated in such matters symbolize that I am making things up.
If you say you haven't played a piece and say nothing else that doesn't imply that you might have played some of it. If you have played some of it you have played some of the piece, you don't say you haven't played the piece. You say you have played some of it but not the entire piece. Instead you clearly said you haven't played it, now try to add that you have learned 6 pages, the reason you want to add that is because you wanted to make your story about some French technique more believable, it however does not add to your credibility at all and does the opposite. Illogical connection between what I meant by backstepping. You are trying to change your story when you already created a situation. You said you didn't play either piece at all and you trust your very experienced teachers who tell you Islamey is more difficult than Gaspard. Now you have some other ideas to try and push your story, some secret french technique to master the gaspard much easier!! Of course you needed to add some experience with the Islamey, yeah 6 pages should be enough, however I have caught these holes in your story, you just can't patch them up unfortunately. It is irrelevant, we have much more exciting things to discuss like why Islamey isn't as difficult as the Scarbo. Provide sources that it is a rumor, there is plenty of sources saying it is true, sorry you lose. And what might that be? I can easily show Scarbo is more difficult than Islamey, anyone who wants to be more concrete and debate me with exact bars we can show the workloads of both and Scarbo will always come out as being more difficult and time consuming. I don't even care that you are insulting me, it, just as dogperson pointed out, crumbles your reputation unfortunately. If you want to start again and actually be more concrete in debating that Islamey is more difficult than Scarbo go ahead, but you cannot since you already admitted you cannot play either piece. You just don't have to insert yourself into this debate, I am fired up for anyone who wants to be concrete with actual examples to contrast, let's do it. I don't need to present it first because lets see someone who actually believes Islamey is more difficult AND has the knowledge to show it in the music, then we will have an interesting discussion although I will be able to demonstrate that Scarbo is more difficult with juxtapositioning of examples. Fantasy thinking where is evidence that french pianists play with a technique no other pianists in the world can learn without this insider type knowledge. Maybe if you lived in the old days, but we are living in the Information Age! Don't blame me I am abrupt with you, you started on a wrong foot and I have not been in a forgiving mood, your idea of French style of playing is just some made up story though, you cannot demonstrate how there is specific french way of teaching Ravel's Ondine which makes it easier as you claimed.
If you say you haven't played a piece and say nothing else that doesn't imply that you might have played some of it. If you have played some of it you have played some of the piece, you don't say you haven't played the piece. You say you have played some of it but not the entire piece. Instead you clearly said you haven't played it, now try to add that you have learned 6 pages, the reason you want to add that is because you wanted to make your story about some French technique more believable, it however does not add to your credibility at all and does the opposite. Illogical connection between what I meant by backstepping. You are trying to change your story when you already created a situation. You said you didn't play either piece at all and you trust your very experienced teachers who tell you Islamey is more difficult than Gaspard. Now you have some other ideas to try and push your story, some secret french technique to master the gaspard much easier!! Of course you needed to add some experience with the Islamey, yeah 6 pages should be enough, however I have caught these holes in your story, you just can't patch them up unfortunately. It is irrelevant, we have much more exciting things to discuss like why Islamey isn't as difficult as the Scarbo. Provide sources that it is a rumor, there is plenty of sources saying it is true, sorry you lose. And what might that be? I can easily show Scarbo is more difficult than Islamey, anyone who wants to be more concrete and debate me with exact bars we can show the workloads of both and Scarbo will always come out as being more difficult and time consuming. I don't even care that you are insulting me, it, just as dogperson pointed out, crumbles your reputation unfortunately. If you want to start again and actually be more concrete in debating that Islamey is more difficult than Scarbo go ahead, but you cannot since you already admitted you cannot play either piece. You just don't have to insert yourself into this debate, I am fired up for anyone who wants to be concrete with actual examples to contrast, let's do it. I don't need to present it first because lets see someone who actually believes Islamey is more difficult AND has the knowledge to show it in the music, then we will have an interesting discussion although I will be able to demonstrate that Scarbo is more difficult with juxtapositioning of examples. Fantasy thinking where is evidence that french pianists play with a technique no other pianists in the world can learn without this insider type knowledge. Maybe if you lived in the old days, but we are living in the Information Age! Don't blame me I am abrupt with you, you started on a wrong foot and now your idea of French style of playing is just some made up story, how else can one put it! You cannot demonstrate how there is specific french way of teaching Ravel's Gaspard which makes it easier as you claimed.Made up claim: Ravel requires french technique, and once you've been trained by a french way of teaching, Scarbo is and the entire Gaspard will be quite comfortable.
Sure, my wording might have been weird, but all of your replies are all over the place.
This is what happens when people are stuck in a hole and they are looking at the world through a small slit. You only believe what you see, which is very narrow. Looking through that slit you may see no sun, so you believe with certainty the weather on Earth is always cloudy. This is you. You don't see what happens outside your rather tiny tunnel, so anything outside is fake and made up. I can't tell you anything that you can listen and change your mindset.
Old French pianists don't play such technique, they invented it by experimenting different ways of playing the piano and comes up with a easier solution.
Thats okay. You can say whatever you want about made up stories, because I don't really care. But if you really want to debate the french technique with me, go for it. I *quote* know much more musical knowledge about this topic than you will ever do.
"weird" is not the word, totally inaccurate and all over the place is better. You again are the pot calling the kettle black, wow you have good practice with this skill! My profession is piano music education, I am not some piano student or hobbist. I will simply say anyone who says Islamey is more difficult than Scarbo or the entire Gaspard simply is making things up and basing it on an uneducated opinion. Sure there might be very rare person who can play both pieces and honestly feels that Islamey is more difficult but they really should know that they are in a highly marginalized position and their experience has no real weight pushing for Islamey to be more difficult than Scarbo. the 99% of pianists who simply cannot play both pieces should understand that Ravel intended Scarbo to be more difficult, that is enough for them to accept that it is and to not do so simply means you don't believe in Ravel's prowess as a composer. Such as? Be more concrete, tell us this old french technique which made Ondine so much easier for you to play since you have completed that entire piece. That is a very difficult piece in itself so you can please tell us how you managed the most difficult parts, the bars and what techniques accelerated your learning process, please also demonstrate how the appproach is unique and found no where else.Your attempt at revealing what this French technique to lelle is just comical. I did not respond to it since I will let lelle deal with it however lelle wants to. If that is the extend of your deep knowledge then what is there to say? lol.
I can't reveal everything, you know. If I explained everything in absolute detail and everyone else who've been to the Paris Conservator did the same thing, no one will be interested to go and learn there anymore. As a "piano educator", you should know some things are not meant to be revealed. Pianists are allowed to have their little secrets, you know.
I get it! You are still debating whether or not Ravel is more difficult than Islamey. I see. I will tell you one more time I don't care which is more difficult. I can agree with you without batting an eyelash. However, you shouldn't be going around and writing that your imagined made up 99 percent of the people will inevitably agree with you.
In my opinionHardestAll 3 movements of Petrushka Ravel Gaspard la nuit (Scarbo)IslameyGaspard la nuit (ondine)Gaspard la nuit (Le gebit)Liszt Feux FolletsLiszt MazeppaBeethoven AppasionataChopin Ballade 2 (This one is the 2nd least hardest out of 4 in my opinion, the hardest is the 4th ballade, and the easiest the 3rd.)Chopin Fantasie Impromptu (A lot of kids age 8-12 play this)Least hardest
You know, the fact that the composer intended the piece to be harder doesn't really mean much. Yes, Ravel is a phenomenal composer, but that's just his own opinion too,
and for every number of people who has been born, there's that many opinions.
Me personally, I found Islamey significantly harder, because the motions that was required throughout the piece was fairly hard to grasp, while the Scarbo, as I was sightreading it, it was an absolute pain, but the technique is no where as hard.
And musical wise, so long you actually have the idea in your head, it isn't too bad.
There's no need to make the grandiose of a pianist you've became to go to waste by being toxic and enforcing your opinion onto others.
In the end, you can say your opinion, but don't enforce them, since their different per person.
And the comparison between Islamey and Scarbo is close enough to state that some people may find either harder then the other.
Why don't you support yourself with extracts from both showing how close they really are, then we can discuss why they are not.
Classical music is the only genre that I can think of where people masturbate over difficulty instead of just enjoying the music. I’m convinced some of y’all actually don’t even enjoy listening to this sh*t
In terms of pedagogy (which I am deeply interested in) it is critical to understand why something may be more difficult than another, it is a simple question with complex answers to the challenges.
Topic: Has anyone learned both gaspard and islamey 