Is there a time you accept you cannot advance to a higher level

[pianodannn]

 What part of don't  respond or reply to me , don't you get?
 Ill say it again.Leave, you are a disgrace to the teaching fraternity.No sane or responsible teacher would come up with this tirade of garbage.Your not fit to teach, end of story.

[lostinidlewonder]

Your attitude is no good. It’s funny though lol. Too bad I burst your bubble and your lies have spilled out. Please continue this thread I will respond each time. You must really think your opinion is the bees knees lol, it’s not that important just to let you know hahahah.

[pianodannn]

 Im fairly certain we concluded i never lied, and that you had no reason to even suspect that i had, and that, like all your other beliefs, you had based it on a bunch of assumptions.So unless you have some kind of evidence, assuming you understand what evidence is, i would advise you to be open to the likelyhood i didn't make a story up, for the sake of upsetting, and wasting everybodies time.

[dogperson]

Your attitude is no good. It’s funny though lol. Too bad I burst your bubble and your lies have spilled out. Please continue this thread I will respond each time. You must really think your opinion is the bees knees lol, it’s not that important just to let you know hahahah.

Csn you do me a favor snd stop replying to him?  I hope he will quit posting as well, as enough has really been offered as advice, none of it has been good enough for him.
If no one replies further, he’ll move to somewhere else

[pianodannn]

No, im posting the video, the clown asked for.Then he can tell me why doing what was suggested, didn't produce the results hes so utterly convinced must come as a result.Then i can just post more and more videos, of exactly what he asks for, do every little thing that he says to do, and then see if in fact there is any value or truth to what he says.According to him, it's not hard at all to perform the passage.So ill expect to perform it perfectly in 2 days time, after taking the instructions, and following them to the absolute letter.Or dont they want that any longer? Perhaps afraid that what they suggest doesn't work, and no longer can use the excuse that i didn't practice "perfectly"

[lostinidlewonder]

You claim you play ten years 3 hours every single day, which is just not believable. The way you fob off all suggestions also highlights you don’t use advice appropriately thus it is also a lie that they don’t help because you didn’t even attempt them appropriately. Send video of quantum’s suggestions with my restrictions then your situation becomes better. You have not offered anything useful so I have set out to provoke you to do so. I don’t care if I’m a “whipping boy” I’ve done it plenty here. Replace lie with utterly unbelievable if that makes you more comfortable.

[lostinidlewonder]

No, im posting the video, the clown asked for.Then he can tell me why doing what was suggested, didn't produce the results hes so utterly convinced must come as a result.Then i can just post more and more videos, of exactly what he asks for, do every little thing that he says to do, and then see if in fact there is any value or truth to what he says.According to him, it's not hard at all to perform the passage.So ill expect to perform it perfectly in 2 days time, after taking the instructions, and following them to the absolute letter.Or dont they want that any longer? Perhaps afraid that what they suggest doesn't work, and no longer can use the excuse that i didn't practice "perfectly"

I’m utterly convinced you are doing it wrong so please humour us. You have so much confidence in yourself it has blinded you, this will be so entertaining.

[pianodannn]

  Given advice.Don't you mean abused, called a liar without any regard for fact? Thats not advice.Sorry....

Csn you do me a favor snd stop replying to him?  I hope he will quit posting as well, as enough has really been offered as advice, none of it has been good enough for him.
If no one replies further, he’ll move to somewhere else

[pianodannn]

You claim you play ten years 3 hours every single day, which is just not believable. The way you fob off all suggestions also highlights you don’t use advice appropriately thus it is also a lie that they don’t help because you didn’t even attempt them appropriately. Send video of quantum’s suggestions with my restrictions then your situation becomes better. You have not offered anything useful so I have set out to provoke you to do so. I don’t care if I’m a “whipping boy” I’ve done it plenty here. Replace lie with utterly unbelievable if that makes you more comfortable.

     Your an idiot.I practiced 3 hours per day, on average, and that is a simple fact.Extremely hard.No distractions of any kind.Broken into multiple sessions at different times, the most efficient way.
    So your telling me, when your student comes in and says they did 7 hours practice this week, you tell them "nah, your talking rubbish now.Your not virtuoso, therefore you didnt do what i asked of you" 
     Given that, as i have been practising A SINGLE PASSAGE, non stop for over a month straight, would you doubt for a second i would practice 3 hours per day?
   Is rubbishing anything a student tells you, what a good teacher does? I really dont think so.
   When i get my qualified and recognised instructor to tell you, first hand, exactly how long and hard i practice, what will you say then? When i show you a video of me practicing for 4 and a half hours, after work.What will you say then.
   PLEASE, rubbish my approach all you like, but cut out this bullshit that i didn't do the practice.....

[pianodannn]

In fact im practising right now, and the video is uploading.Funnily enough i uploaded a video last week of a song i clearly did more than just a few hours practice to record.Strangely i managed to do that, AND keep practising regarding this thread, and practise another song as well.All that, supposedly without practising.Hmm.yeah right....

[ranjit]

Normally wouldn't have replied, but this thread is getting on my nerves at this point.

I sent you a recording of me playing that section with a few minutes of practice. I'm sure lostinidlewonder could sight-read it at tempo in 1-2 attempts, as could several of the others who have replied to your post, quantum included. They have all posted in the audition room, and playing speaks more than words.

You don't know if good practice will help you because you have never practiced well and refuse to let people teach you how.

When it comes to a relative student learning to play the piece you posted, well, I'm largely self-taught and could have definitely given you a few tips on how to speed up those arpeggios. I've been through the same hoops and struggled with playing those arpeggios just 3 years ago. You would know that that kind of advice can be very valuable. They are not as fast as you think, professionals can play arpeggios about twice as fast.

Sure, liw may be having some fun at your expense, but there are a number of other posters who have given you excellent advice which I've personally used to great effect, which you have straight up ignored which is very rude, to put it plainly.

Every moment of time you spend at the piano doesn't count as practicing, it needs to be intentional. Professionals don't tell you to only play with a metronome, that's BS. Honestly, I can't think of the last time I used a metronome to learn a piece. My teacher has never asked me to either. It's a tool, like a hammer. Not everything is a nail.

[brogers70]

     Your an idiot.I practiced 3 hours per day, on average, and that is a simple fact.Extremely hard.No distractions of any kind.Broken into multiple sessions at different times, the most efficient way.
    So your telling me, when your student comes in and says they did 7 hours practice this week, you tell them "nah, your talking rubbish now.Your not virtuoso, therefore you didnt do what i asked of you" 
     Given that, as i have been practising A SINGLE PASSAGE, non stop for over a month straight, would you doubt for a second i would practice 3 hours per day?
   Is rubbishing anything a student tells you, what a good teacher does? I really dont think so.
   When i get my qualified and recognised instructor to tell you, first hand, exactly how long and hard i practice, what will you say then? When i show you a video of me practicing for 4 and a half hours, after work.What will you say then.
   PLEASE, rubbish my approach all you like, but cut out this bullshit that i didn't do the practice.....

The most effective way to deal with unpleasant people on the internet is to not respond to them. There are plenty of posters reading your posts and giving you their point of view politely. There's no need to respond to people who are yanking your chain.

[pianodannn]

  Now, as you can see, that is the result of "jumping chords" each day, for an hour, for 3 weeks.It was suggested, that i dont jump off the thumb fast enough.I very hastilly included several other forms, of practising, which is only a small snippet of the variety of modes i routinely use to practice, including without a metronome!
  Incidentally, some very famous pianist suggest never attempting to perform ANY piece untill you have played it 1000 times to a metronome. Im quite certain many highly acclaimed and accomplished pianist implore the use of the metronome during practice.Cettainly not all the time, but nonetheless it IS heavily used by experts.But somehow im an idiot for using it?

[pianodannn]

It was suggested i was too tense.Well im pretty darn relaxed there.Im not getting sore anywhere after practising for hours daily.So how tense can i be? How SPECIFICALLY should i take that advice, and use it, given that i cant feel the tensiin to relieve?
     How SPECIFICALLY, do you want me to shift my hand, laterally to the left, and be sure to reach a lower octave within a thousands of a second, AND make sure that nothing ever arrives at the wrong place? Specifically how do you CORRECTLY, and PERFECTLY perform the motions you described?

[pianodannn]

I got told to practice the right hand on its own to 90% tempo.Isn't that what you see in the video, except that i can't do it a 90% tempo.
  I was told to curve my fingers more.Well, surprise surprise, theyre curved, and as you see, the speed im working at is the same as 5 weeks ago.So here i am, relaxed, with curved fingers, and jumping chords playing at the same speed i was 100 plus hours ago.I also did fingering exercises recommended by josh wright and 2 other good pianists.Also tried building sequences 1 note at a time.Tried moving up the metronome in larger jumps.Practiced in rythyms, with and without metronome. The advice given was that it not hard at all, and i should fly up to that speed in no time.So why doesn't the video show that happening?
  To be fair i can play better than that if i wasnt so annoyed.But, the point remains.I tried a whole pile of stuff.
   Apparently i disregarded every piece of advice.
  I also jumped chords without actually playing the notes.So no, nothing suggested was left out

[ranjit]

Well...
You have actually improved a bit. No one said it would be easy. You aren't an idiot for using the metronome and no one actually said that.

[timothy42b]

Well, that went downhill in a hurry.

OP, if you have a teacher currently, and you aren't making progress, he/she isn't very good.

That isn't unusual.  There are no requirements to teach piano and the field is full of charlatans.  There are also highly competent teachers who could put you on the right track.

10 years of essentially self teaching have not worked.  If you have a teacher it is not working.  What's the harm in trying?  And if that teacher is not a good fit, then don't stay with them ten years.  Open the door and let another one in.

LIW did offer a lesson.  I would have said instantly he would be a bad fit for you personality wise, and vice versa.  But you could have tried just to see.  It would have been fun to read about here with some popcorn.  Regardless, it is clear from the discussion here that your knowledge of practice methods is incomplete and could be vastly improved with a good teacher and some willingness to try new approaches on your part. 

Just a suggestion.  Do you read Kahneman at all?  Listen to Freakanomics on public radio?  Here's a quick quote:

Persistence is a virtue; stubbornness, a vice.

In decision-making, stubborn allegiance to poor investments can cloud our judgment. We make investments in relationships, stocks, homes, businesses, plans for our children, just about everything. Sometimes prior investments compel continued investment, despite clear evidence that there will be no return or worse a negative return. According to nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman in his recent book Thinking Fast and Slow, “The decision to invest additional resources in a losing account, when better investments are available, is known as the sunk-cost fallacy, a costly mistake that is observed in decisions large and small.”

The sunk-cost fallacy prevents us from cutting our losses when we should. We sell a winning stock rather than a losing stock. We refuse to price a home for less than we paid for it, despite the fact that it has been significantly devalued in a declining market. We languish in long-term relationships, even when they are unfulfilling or damaging.

[pianodannn]

 Theres another video, with narration! Aimed more so at lostinthe wander or losttheplot or whatever.As you see anyhow, my requirements are fullfilled.So now, up to lostinthecause, to correct it.Full tempo with no errors before the evenings out.Otherwise we just gotta accept he/she cant teach.Its only a piss easy piece that a grade 8 can learn in 3 minutes, so better hurry up and explain why its not working using the provided suggestions....

[lostinidlewonder]

Im going to ignore your hissy fit because I have provoked you enough to actually be more concrete, mission accomplished finally!

You are doing it wrong in places and correct in others. Your confidence in your ability to do it totaly correct has failed you and thus it is no wonder why you go down wrong paths. Someone with a more humble attitude would ask what they are exactly doing wrong, instead in your discussion you think you are doing it all so perfectly correct exactly as described, well yes sure you are you are doing exactly as YOU interpreted it, that is not necessary exactly what we mean.

You are creeping to change chord position especially at the upper parts you do very strange movements which have no place in piano playing. Your fingers creep you don't instantly move to chords as was suggested, you spent too much time in the air moving. Don't release the chords until you know exactly where to move, doing this all fast is irrelevant if you do what was asked exactly to move between the chords very fast, you release early especially at the upper parts and I can see you calculating. So in these places you are doing it incorrect and thus your repetitions will be not as beneficial. Your attempt at playing perfectly shows incorrect movements immediately, so there are your problems.

It was said that ALL movements between the groups need to be done quickly without any creeping about, however there are plenty to examples of you creeping about in your videos.

Funnily enough ranjit pointed out you have improved after using these advices. Gosh funny that huh? Now go back and do exactly as was described, stop creeping about and showing your calculations in mid air.

[lostinidlewonder]

LIW did offer a lesson.  I would have said instantly he would be a bad fit for you personality wise, and vice versa.  But you could have tried just to see.  It would have been fun to read about here with some popcorn.  Regardless, it is clear from the discussion here that your knowledge of practice methods is incomplete and could be vastly improved with a good teacher and some willingness to try new approaches on your part. 

Here for your popcorn entertainment is our private message discussion, I initiated the discussion:



Hello pianodannn,

I read your recent post on pianostreet and thought Id contact you in private. Id be happy to help you out and chat a bit about piano. I can be contacted on facebook more easily, perhaps we can do a video or audio call it would be much easier.

peace,
Ben
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Online lostinidlewonder
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« Sent to: pianodannn on: September 02, 2021, 10:59:08 AM »ReplyQuoteDelete


RESPONSE:
Online pianodannn
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« Sent to: lostinidlewonder on: September 01, 2021, 12:09:26 AM »
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 sorry, I only just saw your message. I guess we could chat via facebook, and at some point a video call. I,m a bit shy with video calls for some reason, more so than face to face! But  it  can be done.




MY RESPONSE:

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« Sent to: pianodannn on: September 02, 2021, 10:59:08 AM »ReplyQuoteDelete
I find that with audio calls you can get through a lot more quicker and things can be clearly explained to one another. Video is usually a good idea if you want to show how you do something at the piano, it is certainly not as good as someone sitting next to you and watching you play in person but its better than imaging it or seeing still photos. Whatever you are comfortable with is fine with me we can keep the discussion on here too if you like. I used to hate video calls too but when covid and a lot of teaching went online I sorta had to get use to it quickly  !

I've been teaching piano some 26 years now. I would be glad to give you some advice perhaps tools to use to tackle your music that you might know or not. Any questions you have, any specific music you want help with etc.

I was wondering if you could give me more insight into your piano journey from start to present. I noticed when reading your post on pianostreet that you have quite a dediciated rate at trying to get better at the piano. 10 years 3 hours a day? If you do that consistently that is some rare dedication, even if you do a fraction of that. How do you manage to maintain that or were you exaggerating? What is the list of music you have learned or dabbled with? How do you learn your music by memory or with sight reading tools? What are your reading skills like?



PIANO DAN::: *Cricket sounds, no response at all****

[pianodannn]

Im going to ignore your hissy fit because I have provoked you enough to actually be more concrete, mission accomplished finally!

You are doing it wrong in places and correct in others.

You are creeping to change chord position especially at the upper parts you do very strange movements which have no place in piano playing. Your fingers creep you don't instantly move to chords as was suggested you spent, you spent too much time in the air moving. Don't release the chords until you know exactly where to move, doing this all fast is irrelevant if you do what was asked exactly to move between the chords very fast, you release early especially at the upper parts and I can see you calculating. So in these places you are doing it incorrect and thus your repetitions will be not as beneficial. Your attempt at playing perfectly shows incorrect movements immediately, so there are your problems.

It was said that ALL movements between the groups need to be done quickly without any creeping about, however there are plenty to examples of you creeping about in your videos.

Funnily enough ranjit pointed out you have improved after using these advices. Gosh funny that huh? Now go back and do exactly as was described, stop creeping about and showing your calculations in mid air.

   I am moving as fast as i am able to between chords.How do i stop creeping.Why would you assume, i can simply reduce the time i spend making calculations? Do i just burst my hand to the next position without calculation, so my fingers inevitably land on wrong notes? That doesn't seem to fit your description of accurate practice.As you see, even the generous time delay is not always sufficient to avoid errors.Your advice reads to me as " just do it faster without mistakes, even though you are already rushing from one chord to the next as fast as you can"

[pianodannn]

 Also i will just mention, that i legitimately forgot all about your P.M.I did suggest i had a poor memory.

[lostinidlewonder]

I am moving as fast as i am able to between chords.How do i stop creeping.

You need to hold those chords as long as you want and then only move when you know exactly where to go. Your creeping about in the air and the air time you have is just incorrect. This is why proper piano practice methods can be evasive and why the piano is a tricky instrument to learn well.

Why would you assume, i can simply reduce the time i spend making calculations?

Follow my directions, hold the chords as long as you want and calculate while you are holding, then move instantly. This will resemble mastered movement, you are not doing it and many holes in your method will make it much less beneficial. There is absolutely no need to calculate in the air, hold those damn chords boy! lol.


The rest of your writing is thus answered. You are going off on a wrong track, delete all that, listen to my advice, hold chords forever move only when you know exactly where to go, do that very fast, rinse repeat. This is only one tool in a whole lot of practice methods out there but a very useful one and like I said a cornerstone to many other technique. The fact is that holding chords and moving only when you know where to go is much more benefitical than releasing chords early and calculating in the air. Make this change and you will see much more result from your 3 hours a day...over 10 years Now you can calm down, but if you have more steam to let off go ahead, I don't mind being a whipping boy.

Also i will just mention, that i legitimately forgot all about your P.M.I did suggest i had a poor memory.

Well I'm waiting almost 2 months now for you to notice that you have a message in your inbox. Surely you are not that new to the internet, you seem to have a good grasp of posting media.

[pianodannn]

O.k, well let me try that for a while now and get back to you.

[pianodannn]

You need to hold those chords as long as you want and then only move when you know exactly where to go. Your creeping about in the air and the air time you have is just incorrect. This is why proper piano practice methods can be evasive and why the piano is a tricky instrument to learn well.
Follow my directions, hold the chords as long as you want and calculate while you are holding, then move instantly. This will resemble mastered movement, you are not doing it and many holes in your method will make it much less beneficial. There is absolutely no need to calculate in the air, hold those damn chords boy! lol.


The rest of your writing is thus answered. You are going off on a wrong track, delete all that, listen to my advice, hold chords forever move only when you know exactly where to go, do that very fast, rinse repeat. This is only one tool in a whole lot of practice methods out there but a very useful one and like I said a cornerstone to many other technique. The fact is that holding chords and moving only when you know where to go is much more benefitical than releasing chords early and calculating in the air. Make this change and you will see much more result from your 3 hours a day...over 10 years Now you can calm down, but if you have more steam to let off go ahead, I don't mind being a whipping boy.
Well I'm waiting almost 2 months now for you to notice that you have a message in your inbox. Surely you are not that new to the internet, you seem to have a good grasp of posting media.

  To be fair, the only outcome of responding to your P.M was to establish you cannot teach anything over a forum, therefore there is minimal point in anybody trying to establish what is wrong. After beating about the bush you ended up telling me if an instructor cant produce a good improvement in 2 months, nothing can be done, it's hopeless. Too bad because no instructor can get a good improvement out of any slow learning student in 2 months.Not happening.Ever.
  Most of what i got told just reinforced my belief that without a natural talent or aptitude, there is no possibility of playing to a very high standard. Based on my research, there is in all reality zero possibility of ANY adult beginner reaching a high standard. Nonetheless people continue to promote such expectations.I got told i should be much further ahead after 10 years practicing 3 hours a day, despite most people with that amount of practice not actually becoming accomplished. It takes 20 or more years, even with the absolute best instruction, beginning in the most prime years of 5 to 10 years age to actually become good at piano.But not many people seem to acknowledge this. Even 3 hours a day is not sufficient to become good.It takes me 2 hours to brush up on what i forgot in the last 24 hours.I would say 8 to 12 hours a day for 20 years, with the best possible instructor.Nothing short of that will be sufficient.Of course that is not practically, or even absolutely possible. So essentially it can't be done, unless you are talented.This idea that training this way or that is the answer is hogwash.No body can predict what training works for any student, some dont respond to any form of training because they have no ability, and countless thousands of hours can be wasted looking for methods that work on students who dont show aptitude right off the bat. Essentially it is a lost cause unless you are talented.
   

[ranjit]

  Too bad because no instructor can get a good improvement out of any slow learning student in 2 months.Not happening.Ever.
  Based on my research, there is in all reality zero possibility of ANY adult beginner reaching a high standard. Nonetheless people continue to promote such expectations.

A good teacher in my experience can even get an improvement out of a student in one lesson. That translates to a noticeable improvement after several months.

Some adult beginners have made it. For example, brogers on this forum has become quite good starting as an adult.

I don't think teachers actually promote such expectations. Many teachers I have met have in fact told me it is impossible, and I think almost all of them said it would be fiendishly difficult as an adult student.

[quantum]

So essentially it can't be done, unless you are talented.This idea that training this way or that is the answer is hogwash.

What progress have you made to date?  Post an updated video of you doing one of the suggestions in this thread.  A video of the actual exercise, not what you predetermine as the result of the exercise. 

[ranjit]

"So essentially it can't be done, unless you are talented.This idea that training this way or that is the answer is hogwash."

What progress have you made to date?  Post an updated video of you doing one of the suggestions in this thread.  A video of the actual exercise, not what you predetermine as the result of the exercise.

I think the whole argument relies on what you mean by "it" (in 'it can't be done'). What exactly are you referring to? Of course, you can progress. So the question becomes how much? Is the question about whether you can achieve the same rate of progression as a child would? Or whether you can acquire the same technical skill as a conservatory student? Or the same technical facility as a concert pianist? Can you learn at the same rate as X (famous concert pianist)? etc.

It takes 20 or more years, even with the absolute best instruction, beginning in the most prime years of 5 to 10 years age to actually become good at piano.But not many people seem to acknowledge this.

Again, definitions. I recently came across this video, for example. The pianist certainly doesn't have 20 years of experience. Yet, by almost any measurable metric, she is good (except perhaps 'accomplished concert performer').

[pianodannn]

  Its obvious some people can become good within a short time, it is documented, and even without any studies to prove it, it's hard to argue against the evidence of watching a 9 year old playing probably 80% as good as a professioal concert pianist. So is it reasonable for anybody else to expect this? No. The actual studies show the average amount of practice before even entering a conservatory is about 10,000 hours, but by this time, the students are still not accomplished performers, probably quite far from it.And the 10,000 hours is an average which varies from a few thousand to thirty thousand hours.So really we see a huge variation from prodigies, who reach a semi professional level within 5 years, to slow learners who might take 25 years or even longer to reach the same level. So its quite hard to really judge how far one should expect to progress.Sure you can get better.I got a little better after 3 months.But i  reality a more able person can achieve those gains in an hour. You cant spend 3 months to get a little better at 1 sub skill.Its too slow, way too slow.You need to completely master entire skill sets within that time frame if your going to become good within 10 years.Theres dozens or hundreds of components to playing piano, and if it takes 3 months to improve each component just a little, you may as well forget about becoming good, just about ever.Its just far, far too slow.Different methods only give modest changes to rate of learning.There are no methods or methodologies that drastically change the rate a person aquires skill.It is just mostly inherited.

[lostinidlewonder]

  To be fair, the only outcome of responding to your P.M was to establish you cannot teach anything over a forum, therefore there is minimal point in anybody trying to establish what is wrong. After beating about the bush you ended up telling me if an instructor cant produce a good improvement in 2 months, nothing can be done, it's hopeless. Too bad because no instructor can get a good improvement out of any slow learning student in 2 months.Not happening.Ever.

Oh gosh here comes the negativity again. You have selectivly read what I posted to you in our PMS, should I reveal it all to everyone here? You can't get teaching quality in the manner you would if you had a teacher sitting with you and studying with you in person, but online you can get pointed in the correct direction. You seem to want an exact prescribed answer for your problems of a quality expected from an inperson teacher working with you all done in words written on a page, it is just irrational.

My PMs to you is that if you want specific help you need someone to actually sit with you and discuss, you totally avoid all video conferencing so what do you expect?? It is utterly your own fault.

I think you just want to remain in perpetual failure, you enjoy that so want to bask in it and you simply throw mud at anyone who wants to donate time to help to you. You expect someone to be able to craft some written words and it helps all your problems, don't you think you are being irrational?

Most of what i got told just reinforced my belief that without a natural talent or aptitude, there is no possibility of playing to a very high standard. Based on my research, there is in all reality zero possibility of ANY adult beginner reaching a high standard. Nonetheless people continue to promote such expectations.

Who specifically said such things here? I clearly said there are limitations. I also told you you should not expect that someone can write words to help all your problems. If you want to become better at the piano and want to learn in that manner and then throw your hands up when it fails, well then its your own fault and short comings. Someone much more talented than you might manage that, you just don't have the talent to self learn to that level, accept it. You need an inperson teacher to help you, no amount of word salad will save you. 

 

I got told i should be much further ahead after 10 years practicing 3 hours a day, despite most people with that amount of practice not actually becoming accomplished. It takes 20 or more years, even with the absolute best instruction, beginning in the most prime years of 5 to 10 years age to actually become good at piano.But not many people seem to acknowledge this.

20 years or more? You just pull that number out of a hat. It might take 500 years for some. On average people should be a lot further ahead than where you are, then you will find those who will not be as far as you with so much effort. So what are you really trying to say? It's nothing interesting at all. Everyone is different.

Even 3 hours a day is not sufficient to become good.

I do less and am good.

It takes me 2 hours to brush up on what i forgot in the last 24 hours.I would say 8 to 12 hours a day for 20 years, with the best possible instructor.Nothing short of that will be sufficient.Of course that is not practically, or even absolutely possible. So essentially it can't be done, unless you are talented.

Someone pass me a knife, this negativity is getting thick lol. Yeah so what? What is the point of your crying? Many people find learning the piano annoying and useless, slow progres, plateaus but do you know what? Oh my goodness they keep at it and enjoy the pain lol. If you want to be a super talent then give up the piano and find something that you can do effortlessly, if that is your requirement when studying something then I think its pretty sad.

This idea that training this way or that is the answer is hogwash.

What you KNOW and what you THINK are 2 different things. You obviously have no idea.

No body can predict what training works for any student, some dont respond to any form of training because they have no ability, and countless thousands of hours can be wasted looking for methods that work on students who dont show aptitude right off the bat. Essentially it is a lost cause unless you are talented.

You have an unhealthy perspective as to what makes a worthy musical journey. That is your own hell you have created and you can exist in that forever if you so please. Go study with a good teacher for a year or so perahps they can help you connect to music in a healthier manner, then come back to us, at the moment everything you are talking about is just your own thoughts in your own little world, it is not a reality for anyone but yourself. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: pianodannn on: November 02, 2021, 11:07:32 AM »ReplyQuoteDelete
Quote from: pianodannn on November 01, 2021, 09:42:06 PM
  Going back to what you said about I should be much further a head after all this practice, well i'm not sure of this.I mean, really even 3 hours a day are less that what a lot of high level performers practice. Some are anywhere up to 10 hours per day. And although my level is still substantially below expert level, it really is coming to a stage where the human body is under extreme duress to perform at this level.It is really testing the limits of the reflexes etc. and i can't see that 3 hours a day is excessive when you are talking about something so difficult.And it really is genuinely terribly difficult to perform even at my level. I can't even imagine any tips or guidance to take the sheer difficulty away from it. I still think the natural talent is much to do with it, and im sure you would have noticed that with students, that some have much lower limits than others.Is this not the case?


RESPONSE: So you have to be careful not to trap yourself in situation where you "DONT KNOW YOU DONT KNOW". For example I say you should be a lot further along down the track if you have had all your piano studying priorities kept in efficient order. I give the example of sight reading study, if you did 1 hour every day for 10 years you would have a very large repertoire now and could learn your music very quickly. This unavoidably will improve your technique, Liszt said something along the lines of "Fingering is technique", which means not only using the correct fingers but being able to react with the correct fingers naturally and without much thought.

I don't understand why people measure study based on time, all the high level pianists I deal with measure their study based on workload completed. The problem with measuring everything in time is that it is just a very poor indicator of efficient study and we instead should look at what work are we completing in our practice sessions. If workload is not clearly set out and completed each practice session you can set yourself up for a lot of floundering about. With strong practice method it becomes very clear the difference between playing and practicing.

10 hours a day is certainly not something anyone does for long periods of time. When I studied with Roger Woodward there were times were I was doing 9 hours a day but this is when studying piano as a professional music student (I studied all 24 Chopin etudes in around a month). People cannot remain in this area forever and I really don't know one single professional pianist who would actually choose a life that followed this. Maybe people who have so much money they don't need to work can live a life like this but it is just not normal at all and I would love to pick the brain of anyone who can effectively study the piano for 10 hours a day with high efficiency.

Piano technique should feel effortless and relaxed, any time you feel tense or pushed to your physical limit then there is a problem with your playing. Playing the piano seems easy to start with but the difference between right and wrong can be small and thus trap a lot of people as the difficulty level increases. The "technical tightrope" becomes narrower as you get to more challenging levels, what you can get away with with easier works you cannot as you progress. Many people approach studying works slowly and then creeping up up the tempo, this also sets you up for traps. When playing something slowly you need to preserve movements which relate to faster playing, this can be very evasive for developing pianists. The idea of playing slow but preserve fast movements is the subtle point with slow tempo practice which a lot of people don't understand. This can be found in the controlled pausing and then fast immediate movements to new chord positions without calculations in air as described in your post. We need to preserve fast movements so our hand and brain can appreciate them, we need to avoid movements which actually have no place in more technically demanding piano playing. This can be difficult to catch on your own and why piano stumps a lot once they reach certain levels.

I wrote a thread about the thinking types which might interest you if you are not already aware of it. It is good to be aware about the generalize way in which we learn subjects.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41550.msg459197


Talent certainly plays a role. I have no idea where you came from on the piano so your progress could be amazing. I have taught people who are very uncoordinated or cannot see patterns very clearly, even with years of study they make small ground. Then I teach people who are highly coordinated and have strong mental capabilities. For example I taught 2 friends in their 70s, one was a dentist and the other a businessman. The dentist naturally can "feel" movements at the piano since his job required a lot of fine motor skills and memorization of technical movements. The businessman however struggles a lot more with his coordination at the piano but studies a lot more, he is a highly disciplined beast. They both have studied with me around 3 years now and the dentist is slighly ahead even with the less amount of study he puts in (maybe 30 mins each day). The businessman does a solid 2-3 hours each day and is slightly behind. They play maybe at an AMEB grade 2 low 3 level but more comfortably at a high grade 1 low 2.

Recently I took on one Chinese girl who is 5 years old and have taught her for around 10 lessons. She has already has nearly passed these two older 70 year olds. One extreme example I taught had self learned a number of Liszt pieces and Beethoven sonatas in his first year all through synesthesia videos. My lessons with him were highly unusual studying diploma level with a highly musical autistic child.

So there is a spectrum of "talent" but it can be described with a combination of coordination aptitude and pattern recogition intelligence. All the best fast learners I have dealt with have an elaborate system to learn their music which many cannot explain in words. Everyone can reveal the way in which they learn their music, as a piano pedagogist I encourage them all to connect with it in a verbal manner which they can describe to themselves at least and thus make controlled changes if neccesary. It is really quite fascinating how highly talented musicians learn their music and when teachers can get them to connect to the way they are thinking at the piano interesting learning pathways often open up which can be instructive for teacher as much as the student.

10,000 hours is just a silly ideology. Some people get it much faster and others will never get it. There are some students who just will never get it because they really need daily lessons. In the old days piano was studied every day with a teacher, of course this meant only the richest learned. Today is different, technology has made piano much more accessible to all socio economic brackets. Lessons however have been changed to weekly type meetings. This is fine for the majority of students but some really would benefit from daily lessons especially those who progress slowly. The problem is that when a student is left on their own they fall into habits which they want to use. This is not altogether bad and should be encouraged but at the same time if you are studying with a good teacher you need to follow their practice methods to the t and be very precise about it. Then a synergy of your teacher and your own method can be done as well. So you have three types of approaches, your own, the teachers and then a combination of both. Many students when studying on their own might think they are doing exactly as the teacher described but in fact are making subtle errors they are not aware about. This of course will impact on their progress. With daily lessons a student will constantly be conformed to the teachers advice and thus not waste as much time doing inefficient things. As teachers we however should not totally squash experimentation, we should allow students to experiment with their own ideas but keep them in line so they don't end up wasting a lot of time.

Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: pianodannn on: November 03, 2021, 11:45:08 AM »ReplyQuoteDelete
Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
  It has ocurred to me that, although there may be some "method" to developing "talent", as you say, it often cannot be verbalised, and thus the method cannot be conveyed from  who have it, to those who do not.

RESPONSE: I think you missed what I meant. I’m sorry I can’t really explain it clearer. As a piano pedagogist I often am aiming to get people to verbally connect with what they do. Keeping it in a realm where it is merely some ethereal thought or feeling is not good. Many high level talents however are unable to verbalise what they do which needs rectification so one can have control over their development.

Speed is not really a difficult issue of piano playing at all. Like I said if something feels uncomfortable you are doing something wrong. Effortless and ease of playing, or as Mozart might put it “honey on the fingers”. If you approach technique from discomfort and merely try to make that more comfortable you are going to waste a great deal of time especially if what is supposed to feel comfortable evades you or only ever can be an estimation in your playing.

Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
  As far as the quality of practice, again as you stated, two individuals with very similar practice regimes/methods often show drastically different progress, thus the role of practice quality is also shown to have limitations.

RESPONSE: I didn’t say this. Dentist worked much less and had natural coordination talent, business man worked his butt off and has little natural coordination. How you choose to practice when alone is important I mentioned the three ways practice is done. I suggest you reread what I wrote it seems to me you skimmed it and did not digest the deep knowledge. I write with the experience of teaching hundreds of people so I’m not just making up ideas I am speaking from actual experience with the general public.


Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
In my case, I seem to be finding that there is a limitation has been reached whereby i can find no way to shift any of the bodily components any faster.Fingers, wrists, shoulders, arms whatever are just too slow, and succumbing to fatigue quite quickly.

RESPONSE: If you are doing something not correct then it is no wonder you face these limitations.

Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
I cannot find anybody at all who can describe a practice method that reduces these restrictions.

RESPONSE:The blame however rests with you, it is your failure to follow something exactly as a teacher describes. And no I don’t think asking internet teachers is a good idea you need someone to sit with you. I already pointed out how you were doing controlled pausing and fast movements between chords incorrectly. It is obvious that you also make subtle errors with other pianistic issues.

Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
In fact, its at a point now that i will just abandon my pursuit of speed and just accept that in the short to medium term at least, it will not be possible to play very fast music.

RESPONSE:The problem is you choose pieces not appropriate for your technical capabilities. Prioritising doing works you can manage is important and shows long term benefits.


Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
It could well take numerous years further to develop whatever it is that allows this speed. For the time being it is proving futile to pursue it, as i can't find any method of practice which produces results. Certainly not within a reasonable span of time.

RESPONSE:If you trap yourself with inappropriate repertoire then it should be no surprise this is the outcome.

Quote from: pianodannn on November 02, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
Sight reading although valuable, wont adress the physical shortcomings which are limiting speed.Especially since nobody other than the very best pianist can sight read very fast music. Sightreading focusses the cognitive aspect of the mind, but the cognitive mind is not really involved in playing very fast music, since it has to be firmly entrenched in memory to play at such speed.There is much more subconcious mind involved with fast playing.Sight reading forces you to slow down and think, so presumably the qualities used in fast play would atrophy during extensive sight reading?
   
RESPONSE: ... I would ask you why do you think you know what sight reading will give? You absolutely don’t realise there are issues where YOU DONT KNOW YOU DONT KNOW, you really need to meditate upon that one. No one can help you at all if you think you know it all. You must submit you don’t know you don’t know. I find it sad you make wrong assumptions with sight reading, it makes it clearer to me why you have been stuck for years on end with all these thinking you know. What one KNOWS and what one THINKS are two different things.



 Sent to: pianodannn on: November 03, 2021, 08:39:06 PM »ReplyQuoteDelete
Quote from: pianodannn on November 03, 2021, 07:53:23 PM
  I'm not sure what you meant to imply when you told me  the harder working and more disciplined businessman was practicing 4 - 6 times as long as the less disciplined dentist, but was still slightly behind. Or that you had a 5 year old with 10 lessons under his/her belt that had surpassed both mature aged adults. The best  takeaway I can garner from this information, is that neither quality or quantity of practice are major factors in determining ability, since you describe 3 students, all with very high quality tuition (by you), all presumably doing their utmost to fulfill your practice requirements, yet all 3 differing by a factor of 10 in their rate of progress? Unless perhaps you are with the businessman everyday sitting by his side for 3 hours to correct him, a practically impossible scenario, it would seem there is no way to bring any 2 different students to the same standard. So I didn't mean to imply that tuition is not important, just that there are other factors that are very important, other than being hard working or dedicated, or willing to follow instructions.

RESPONSE: I brought up the two older students and compared them to demonstrate time invested difference vs progress. Then one girl example who has got to near their level in a much shorter time and then the autistic self taught student I worked with who was off the charts in terms of natural capability.

The limiting factor is the way in which students learn, some resolve adding better methods to their skill set faster than others who may require much more time testing and seeing what works and what doesn’t.

Natural coordination capability at the piano is a factor that plays a role in people’s development. The dentist who had decades of technical muscular memory skills and analysis of using those skills in different situations had an easier time connecting to music than the businessman who needed to invest a lot to make the same results. Age can play a factor which is why you may see young children fly through levels faster than adults. Many children still have a lot of brain connections waiting to learn new coordination type movements. This is not to say you cannot experience this as you age but at the upper age limits there is certainly a limiting factor to coordination development.

If the struggling student tries lesser methods they will waste a lot of time. Practice method is a key foundation to the entire learning experience. Although my older students might not play at a high level they can think and solve their works in a more direct manner and can control what they are learning. They are not in a realm where they just don’t know when something is going to be completed. There lies a difference in how music is approached. I would say a pianist who can play 100 grade 1 pieces is much better musician than one who plays a single high grade piece. Someone who plays 100 slow pieces has much more speed capability than a person who can play only one fast pierce.

So practice method holds the burden of a lot of our piano development. I’ve dealt with very poorly coordinated people and those who are highly coordinated to an extreme level. This certainly plays a role in ones development but it is not as important as appropriate study approach of the subject itself. This cannot be written in some generalised manner, it is very much like a doctor diagnosing a patient. The teacher must test their students in many ways to get to understand how they think and how well their body coordinates. Not everyone is created equal in this department and some people are simply more natural pianists than others there is absolutely no doubt about that. There is also not enough years in many peoples lives to master the piano, this is just an absolute truth. Sure if someone could live say 500 years perhaps we could say everyone could master the piano. But studying the piano ultimately should not be about wanting to become a master at it. There must be a greater power that binds one to music than that.


Quote from: pianodannn on November 03, 2021, 07:53:23 PM
I can continue to learn pieces by sight reading, but that means not studying other aspects of piano, as sight reading is very time consuming to learn, and 1 hour a day, even for 10 years still wont make an average person what I would describe as a good sight reader.

RESPONSE: Maybe it is your use of words but I can’t see how you can even guess what ten years one hour a day of appropriate sight reading training would do. In fact if you truly understood it you would abandon almost all else to focus on reading/memory synergy. I’m not kidding that repertoire expands logarithmically as your reading becomes stronger.



Quote from: pianodannn on November 03, 2021, 07:53:23 PM
Now given that no 2 teachers will recommend the same pieces to learn, which ones shall I learn? How many shall I learn? 5, 6, 25, 800 or 1500 pieces? Will that take 5, 10, 15 or 40 years to learn all those pieces. Do I have to stop practicing scales, arpeggios,    brushing up on old repertoire, in order to sight read all these new songs? How will I work on the plethora of other things I need time to work on, if I am devoting all my mental energy to absorbing information on a piece of paper, rather than analysing what my hands are actually doing? How will my technique get better, by taking all attention away from my hands, and diverting all of that attention to deciphering printed information, leaving no mental energy to actually understand what the hands are doing? Sounds a bit weird to me. But if you think it's best, i can spend another 2000 hours on sight reading, over and above the 2000 hours I already spent learning songs of all different levels by sight reading.
    With the creeping thing, when would you expect to see some improvement, after taking up exercises designed to stop creeping, you know, as you described with the pausing, calculating and jumping. Because I've been doing that, but im not getting any faster, and maintaining the speed is not getting any easier.

RESPONSE:I mean this all would take many pages to cover which is simply impractical. Briefly, there is not one pathway through repertoire which expands ones skills in an efficient manner. The most ideal choice is something the student actually likes and which will expand their skills appropriately. I actually give my students a large choice of pieces to study it doesn’t matter which one they choose in most cases.

To give you some idea many of my sight reading students cycle through 100+ pieces a month several times. There are many different approaches to sight reading training which a lot has to do with highlighting pattering in the score. Precisely what patterns has to conform with the students mental capabilities but there are watered down ideas which still lay foundation for higher level skills later on down the track.

Then there is fingering calculations how well you can do it on the fly and how well you can recover if you make errors. Fingering is what stumps the vast majority when it comes to sight reading. If one reads something always with the correct fingers the whole process is many times easier.

There are many more issues but again even listing them all out is just going beyond the scope of a private message.

Regarding your use of controlled pause there are simply too many factors which could be stopping you. It is a very useful skill and it needs to be fully appreciated. Like I said the situation is like a doctor trying to diagnose a patient, I simply cannot tell you exactly what is up and what you must do that will help you on your way. If it were possible to write a book which helps everyone it would be great. I tried writing how someone would learn a piece with all different mind types at the piano. I came up with some 20+ ways one might learn a single easy piece. That is not even all there is I still come across people who think in some manner I have not seen before. Then add the various permutations of how people think in different situations and it becomes a confusing mess to write about. Piano educators thus need to learn how to diagnose their students needs, unfortunately as you would know music teachers is not a regulated business and there are plenty who know nothing much at all.

In any case I think any teacher you learn with you should bombard them with specific questions that you have and see real progress. If there is no change in a couple months it’s utterly useless.


15 days have passed and you have disengaged in our discussion. In the small interaction we have had it is obvious that you have it in your mind one ideology without observing that there is another reality out there as well. You easily waved away the benefits of sight reading without ever having taken appropriate studies in it. You even gave reasons why it will not be effective for you. This kind of thinking is just trapping yourself, no one can help you if you think in this manner.

[pianodannn]

  Oh well you said real progress in a couple of months by bombarding a teacher with questions.Well that doesn't work, and i havent seen real progress.So is it your belief, or mine, that it is utterly hopeless.A teacher with 25 years experience basically says theres no point, but its my fault for maintaining the belief.Hmm, i see.
     You know its just going to consume another 10 years to learn sight reading effectively, after which i STILL have to take up a whole wide range of things where i left off, only to find that its all lost and forgotten whilst i focus on sight reading.So the whole thing cant be learnt in less than 30 years at 3 hours a day, and nobodies training or instruction nor any effort on my behalf can fix that.Stop telling people they should be advanced at piano after 10 years.I dont care if you taught 40 000 students over 60 years, most people dont, and never ever will with any kind of instruction get near a professional level within 10 years.Its just not happening.If you taught me face to face, and saw first hand how i learn, you would immediately recognize there is zero possibility of getting me good within 10 years.I know students who can't play anything at all after training 5 hours a day for 15 years.Not even a sequence of 3 notes.

[klavieronin]

  I know students who can't play anything at all after training 5 hours a day for 15 years.Not even a sequence of 3 notes.

That I find hard to believe unless, of course, they are suffering from some kind of disability.

I do agree though that not everyone can reach a professional level of playing (if you define "professional level" as the level needed for a career as a concert pianist). It's just too competitive and you're going up against people who are naturally gifted, hard working, and in most cases a little obsessive. Those are the qualities needed to reach the highest level.

However, I do think just about anybody, if they are dedicated and reasonably intelligent, could reach the level necessary to graduate from a conservatory or university.

[lostinidlewonder]

  Oh well you said real progress in a couple of months by bombarding a teacher with questions.Well that doesn't work, and i havent seen real progress.So is it your belief, or mine, that it is utterly hopeless.A teacher with 25 years experience basically says theres no point, but its my fault for maintaining the belief.Hmm, i see.

Hmmm no you don't see. If you have a good teacher who you can work with in person then within a couple months you should notice real progression, if not the lessons are useless. I don't see how you have any evidence at all that this doesn't happen. You need to find a good teacher so you can notice this, if not you haven't found one yet have you? You are not going to find it on an internet message board if all you want to do is keep it in text.

You know its just going to consume another 10 years to learn sight reading effectively, after which i STILL have to take up a whole wide range of things where i left off, only to find that its all lost and forgotten whilst i focus on sight reading.

I certainly haven't described to you an indepth syllabus that would set you up for appropriate sight reading studies. You have never done it so how can you even say anything at all about it? Go ahead and speculate all you want, live in your world of negativity that's up to you.

So the whole thing cant be learnt in less than 30 years at 3 hours a day, and nobodies training or instruction nor any effort on my behalf can fix that.

The "whole thing" is what? You have some fantasy in your head which has no real definition.

Stop telling people they should be advanced at piano after 10 years.

Who said that? Where is the quote? I've always supported the ideology that people are all different and that becoming advanced should not be the driving force that encourages people to study music. That is a a rather a shallow approach to the musical arts.

I dont care if you taught 40 000 students over 60 years, most people dont, and never ever will with any kind of instruction get near a professional level within 10 years.

Not everyone will find a good teacher that's for sure. Even with good training not everyone can become a professional level, this is some fantasy requirement that you have constructed yourself that becoming a professional or highly advanced must be a part of the only worthy musical journey you possibly could take.

Its just not happening.If you taught me face to face, and saw first hand how i learn, you would immediately recognize there is zero possibility of getting me good within 10 years.I know students who can't play anything at all after training 5 hours a day for 15 years.Not even a sequence of 3 notes.

In the small video example that you posted up (and which you deleted,  I guess your arrogant attitude which spewed out throughout that video embarrassed you? Lol) I pointed out how you were not doing a practice method of controlled pauses exactly correct. That is one small detail but should be enough to make you realize that your approach is not totally correct and it may be the same in many other places. Are we supposed to go through every single one all of your problems on here and ensure you are doing everything correct? I think its unnecessary, being pointed out already how you have done something incorrect should be enough for you to reassess how you approach your piano. Instead you ignore all this, you don't realize your approach is not totally correct, and instead rather be negative about it all and say nothing helps. Well, if being pointed out how you are not correct doesn't help you and being told what is more correct doesn't help you, what help do you expect? I guess deleting your videos once you have been shown to be incorrect makes you feel safer lol, at least you can maintain the sham that you are doing everything correct and nothing helps! Good one lol.

[timothy42b]

Different methods only give modest changes to rate of learning.There are no methods or methodologies that drastically change the rate a person aquires skill.It is just mostly inherited.

I'm pretty sure LIW could answer this in 10,000 words or more.

Actually I'm pretty sure he has.  Well, maybe 100,000. 

However, there are many examples of actors who have no musical or martial arts background, but with intensive study learn enough in a few months to perform very convincingly.

I'm sure their skills do not extend to every facet of the endeavor, but they do the major elements correctly. 

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/periods-genres/film-tv/actors-who-learned-musical-instrument-films/

[pianodannn]

   Well to be fair, those actors only learned the one piece, which is not actually learning to play the instrument.Those are also not especially hard pieces.But good job nonetheless.At the same time it doesn't really indicate such feats could be attained through any particular strategy other than just having the natural ability to learn fast.It's not like they engineered some special strategy to learn like that.They just learn like that, and thats that.A lot of people wouldnt have learned it even with a gun to their heads.

[mcporter87]

Seems there are a couple immature individuals in this thread. I was going to voice my opinion on the original question of is there ever a time to accept you cannot advance to a higher level…

 But clearly, the arguments that are being had below are actually far more entertaining. Extremely embarrassing (for those involved). But highly entertaining.

 Going back to the question, I would say no. Giving up is the easy option. You may very well be ready to progress to a higher level. There may just be certain pieces that you are not capable of playing.

 I am actually an organist more so than a pianist but I do practise piano music most days. When it comes to Liszts La Campanella, I have accepted defeat and that this is a piece I just can’t master. I therefore decided to stick with Liszt but did something that I can manage so worked through the Un Sospiro and his Hungarian Rhapsody 2.

 Just remember that when you started the piano and worked through your grades, you would probably have been at a grade 4 level but playing grade 6 or even grade 7 pieces. Doesn’t necessarily mean that you could play all grade 6/7 repertoire at that time. Take your time to find some advanced and technical pieces that appeal to you, scan through them and if they are manageable then work on them slowly!

 It’s all to easy for us to fall in love with a piece and want to learn it as quickly as possible. The Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody Chopins Ballade 4 are both pieces that each took me in excess of 6 months to learn fully. And know I have, I make sure I play through them regularly so that I do not lose the technique!
 

[lostinidlewonder]

Seems there are a couple immature individuals in this thread. I was going to voice my opinion on the original question of is there ever a time to accept you cannot advance to a higher level…

 But clearly, the arguments that are being had below are actually far more entertaining. Extremely embarrassing (for those involved). But highly entertaining.

I guess we will be graced with your "mature" presence?

Take your time to find some advanced and technical pieces that appeal to you, scan through them and if they are manageable then work on them slowly!

Oh so working slowly will solve all the problems, wow who would have known!

[lostinidlewonder]

   Well to be fair, those actors only learned the one piece, which is not actually learning to play the instrument.Those are also not especially hard pieces.But good job nonetheless.At the same time it doesn't really indicate such feats could be attained through any particular strategy other than just having the natural ability to learn fast.It's not like they engineered some special strategy to learn like that.They just learn like that, and thats that.A lot of people wouldnt have learned it even with a gun to their heads.

You don't even know proper learning strategy since you are self learning. You condem any lesson strategy and you don't even have a teacher who is working with you. Need anyone point out how illogical that is? What happened to your videos where you displayed erroneous confidence that you can do everything perfectly and practice exactly as suggested? Oh that goes against your idea that everything you do is correct and nothing helps?

[lostinidlewonder]

What progress have you made to date?  Post an updated video of you doing one of the suggestions in this thread.  A video of the actual exercise, not what you predetermine as the result of the exercise.

At first he was confident he could show he was doing everything totally correct thus he posted many videos. Too bad for him I pointed out his error, that quickly had him delete his videos since his over confidence blabbing throughout the video that everything he does is correct and it's not helping was sounding ridiculous. Lol. I mean we get all sorts of people here, this is not a normal case and thus nothing really is going to be solved. He should post more videos so we can point out his error (although it will take ten pages of writing to try and get him to do what we ask) but surely he will avoid all this because of course he believes everything he does is exactly correct and unhelpful.

[pianodannn]

   Well, its too bad, because following your instruction, and rectifying what was wrong still produces very little improvement. There was a whole host of shortcomings with the way i was performing in those videos.Innacuracies of spacial awareness, reflexes that were just far too slow to play the passage.But you didn't address any of that.You can see from those videos my hands are just far too slow to play that passage.Practicing chord jumps doesn't fix that.
   You need to come up with about 25 specific things, relating to that specific passsage, that i can change that would result in me playing it accurately, at the prescribed tempo.Doing chord jumps in the way you suggest cannot achieve this.

[pianodannn]

 I also told you i have a teacher.But there are no silver bullets.Its clear to me.There are no methodologies that geatly accelerate learning.No matter whos advice i take, there will be no rapid improvements.Hence my somewhat retarded progresd isn't and never was caused by a lack of instruction.You should never have assumed i should be so much more advanced with that amount of practice.It is just a consequence of inherited qualities(you know as well as I that is often the case) so dont assume 10 years is going to be sufficient for any body with any type of practice, because it isn't

[pianodannn]

  I could probably play that passage 1 bpm faster, after 100 hours of implementing your suggestions.Do you have any tips that DON'T consume a full human lifespan to get good?

[klavieronin]

Do you have any tips that DON'T consume a full human lifespan to get good?

I think if you aren't prepared to spend a lifetime learning something you ought to question whether it's worth learning at all. Some things are, of course, worth learning despite any lack or real interest, but in the case of music I personally don't think that's the case. You're either in it for the long haul or doomed to failure. Just IMHO.

Also, there are different ways to improve your playing. People often mistake increasing technical wizardry for improvement. Why not focus on playing simpler repertoire with more beauty and artistry?

[lostinidlewonder]

I notice how you talk past the majority of points I bring up, too difficult for you to face the music? lol

   Well, its too bad, because following your instruction, and rectifying what was wrong still produces very little improvement.

Too bad you NEVER demonstrated us anything where you did EXACTLY as we asked. Your attempt at doing controlled pauses with quick movements was pointed out to you how wrong you were doing it. You then quickly deleted all your videos because in those you were being arrogant saying how perfect you were doing everything yet it wasn't perfect it was incorrect. I had to keep asking you to post up how you were doing it and you were saying there is really no way one can do it wrong, yet when you posted the video you were doing it wrong, funny that right? So the little improvement you are talking about is your own fault since you are not doing it correct.

There was a whole host of shortcomings with the way i was performing in those videos.Innacuracies of spacial awareness, reflexes that were just far too slow to play the passage.But you didn't address any of that.You can see from those videos my hands are just far too slow to play that passage.Practicing chord jumps doesn't fix that.

I didn't adress any of that lol. I pointed out several issues which had nothing to do with piano playing. Go back and look at what I wrote. Oh I bet you wont because its going against the story in your head that nothing helps and you do everything perfectly. I think you may need a doctor rather than a piano teacher?

You need to come up with about 25 specific things, relating to that specific passsage, that i can change that would result in me playing it accurately, at the prescribed tempo.Doing chord jumps in the way you suggest cannot achieve this.

Its because you are doing it wrong. Go ahead post us a video of you practicing as we described in the controlled pausing exercise. BTW, it is only ONE exercise amongst a huge amount of practice techniques. It is sufficient enough to point out to you your error in trying to do that small exercise. I already pointed out your errors, you have FAILED to post any other video which demonstrates you understand exactly how to do it. All we have seen in your failed attempts with errors spotted throughout. So you cannot achieve imporvement because you are doing it wrong and require assistance. However you expect to keep everything in text, you want your problems solved by people who can only use text and who can only see small clips of you playing random rubbish not very well.

I also told you i have a teacher.

Oh you are studying with a concert pianist right? Oh yes that famous one who you won't say who LOL.

But there are no silver bullets.Its clear to me.There are no methodologies that geatly accelerate learning.No matter whos advice i take, there will be no rapid improvements.

Yes and its your own fault because you think you do everything correct and are unable to respond to corrective in an appropriate manner.

Hence my somewhat retarded progresd isn't and never was caused by a lack of instruction.

You got it right there, your lack of progress has nothing to do with instruction but your own pig headed way of approaching music.

You should never have assumed i should be so much more advanced with that amount of practice.It is just a consequence of inherited qualities(you know as well as I that is often the case) so dont assume 10 years is going to be sufficient for any body with any type of practice, because it isn't

I don't have to assume it because I know what 10 years of solid sight reading training does for a large amount of people. You have never done it so you can only GUESS.

  I could probably play that passage 1 bpm faster, after 100 hours of implementing your suggestions.Do you have any tips that DON'T consume a full human lifespan to get good?

1bpm faster after 100 hours, you are being insane, this kind of thinking belongs in an mental hospital. None of us really care if you think rubbish like that, but we will point and laugh at you if you think such things are normal. I think it has been sufficiently demonstrated that you are totally uninterested in anyone suggestions. There has been ZERO suggestions given to you that you say is good. Go ahead, tell us a suggestion someone has given you here which is good? Nope, you are MR negative, MR everything is crap and doesn't work, MR I am perfect and everyone can't help me, MR I delete videos once I've been shown I'm incorrect but will still ignore all that and stay in my little world.

[pianodannn]

I notice how you talk past the majority of points I bring up, too difficult for you to face the music? lol
Too bad you NEVER demonstrated us anything where you did EXACTLY as we asked. Your attempt at doing controlled pauses with quick movements was pointed out to you how wrong you were doing it. You then quickly deleted all your videos because in those you were being arrogant saying how perfect you were doing everything yet it wasn't perfect it was incorrect. I had to keep asking you to post up how you were doing it and you were saying there is really no way one can do it wrong, yet when you posted the video you were doing it wrong, funny that right? So the little improvement you are talking about is your own fault since you are not doing it correct.
I didn't adress any of that lol. I pointed out several issues which had nothing to do with piano playing. Go back and look at what I wrote. Oh I bet you wont because its going against the story in your head that nothing helps and you do everything perfectly. I think you may need a doctor rather than a piano teacher?
Its because you are doing it wrong. Go ahead post us a video of you practicing as we described in the controlled pausing exercise. BTW, it is only ONE exercise amongst a huge amount of practice techniques. It is sufficient enough to point out to you your error in trying to do that small exercise. I already pointed out your errors, you have FAILED to post any other video which demonstrates you understand exactly how to do it. All we have seen in your failed attempts with errors spotted throughout. So you cannot achieve imporvement because you are doing it wrong and require assistance. However you expect to keep everything in text, you want your problems solved by people who can only use text and who can only see small clips of you playing random rubbish not very well.

Oh you are studying with a concert pianist right? Oh yes that famous one who you won't say who LOL.
Yes and its your own fault because you think you do everything correct and are unable to respond to corrective in an appropriate manner.
You got it right there, your lack of progress has nothing to do with instruction but your own pig headed way of approaching music.
 
I don't have to assume it because I know what 10 years of solid sight reading training does for a large amount of people. You have never done it so you can only GUESS.

1bpm faster after 100 hours, you are being insane, this kind of thinking belongs in an mental hospital. None of us really care if you think rubbish like that, but we will point and laugh at you if you think such things are normal. I think it has been sufficiently demonstrated that you are totally uninterested in anyone suggestions. There has been ZERO suggestions given to you that you say is good. Go ahead, tell us a suggestion someone has given you here which is good? Nope, you are MR negative, MR everything is crap and doesn't work, MR I am perfect and everyone can't help me, MR I delete videos once I've been shown I'm incorrect but will still ignore all that and stay in my little world.

  Yep.Whatever..   
    Bottom line is i did what you suggested, the results are hardly impressive.You don't have any answers, you can't teach, and your advice is useless.
    I continually state simple FACTS to you, and you respond by saying it's B.S. What the hell do you mean by 1bpm faster after 100 hours is insame???
   I told you thats the difference your tips make, and you write it of as B.S, despite that being the factual reality of the situation.
    Forget about this advanced stuff.I'm not able or suited to doing it, need to forget and move on.Ill just stick to simpler stuff, and that's that.

[lostinidlewonder]

  Yep.Whatever..   
    Bottom line is i did what you suggested, the results are hardly impressive.You don't have any answers, you can't teach, and your advice is useless.

This is severely short sighted on your behalf. It has already been proven that you do not follow instructions exactly as suggested. In your videos it was shown a number of issues which were not correct. You quickly deleted these videos because throughout you were constantly running your mouth off saying how correct and perfect you were doing it and once your errors were pointed out it just made you look a little silly. You even thought before posting these videos there was no way you could be doing them wrong here is a reminder:

LOST SAID:

I don't see you trying the practice method quantum suggested though, to play block chords positions and moving to each group quickly.

PIANODANNN response

Well i did do it.I can post a video of that.I cant see there is any room for error as far as methodology goes.There really is no ambiguity in the description of the method

After such unfounded confidence isn't it important that you become aware that you were in the end utterly mistaken? Doesn't that make you wonder what other issues you have got wrong? Perhaps this thought doesn't come across your closed mind and you much prefer to blame the advice lol!!

So the logical conclusion is because you do not follow instructions appropriately that much advice given to you naturally will be useless, this is your problem not the advice.

I continually state simple FACTS to you, and you respond by saying it's B.S. What the hell do you mean by 1bpm faster after 100 hours is insame???

Piano education is my profession for many years, I do know more than you know about the topic, that is just a fact. So I am saying your ideas are crazy and wrong because they are, with appropriate instruction you would realize why. If you cannot understand why investing 100 hours to gain something utterly irrational is an insane act then who can help you here?

I told you thats the difference your tips make, and you write it of as B.S, despite that being the factual reality of the situation.

The reality is that you do not follow instructions correctly. It was already pointed out in your attempt to try to video yourself doing what we advised. It was shown that what you did was not correct and had errors. You never posted another video proving that you actually could do exactly as we ask. The only videos we have seen is the one where you made errors but ran your mouth off throughout the video saying how perfect you were. You deleted these videos because it was shown how wrong you were. Your attitude just stinks really. That is the factual reality of the situation.

Forget about this advanced stuff.I'm not able or suited to doing it, need to forget and move on.Ill just stick to simpler stuff, and that's that.

Yes move on, if you want to try and denigrate advice from a number of knowledgable people here who have done more than they should have to try and help you, you will have me constantly responding to your irrational attitude. Please post a video of you doing exactly as we asked, I will happily point out your errors again to show you it is your own fault not the advice.

[pianodannn]

  Why the hell would i say a suggestion is good, if none of them give results like you suggest they should.There is nothing at all that i can do or implement, whereby oh wow after 3 weeks of trying im going to be 30% faster or 30% less errors in some particular passage or exercise.Such a thing doesn't exist.It's not happening.No matter what anybody suggests, or how earnestly i implement it will result in the kind of gains you seem to think are normal.No body can actually tell me just how long its supposed to take to even get a passage like i posted correctly up to a high tempo.4 weeks.A year.20 years? How long does it normally take.Can't get any answer.Most certainly not a few weeks or a month by the looks of it.And thats just one type of passage with one hand.Imagine learning such arpeggios with the left hand.Another 3 years.Gosh, it certainly doesn't seem remotely feasable to become even vaguely accomplished in 10 years.Thats a joke.Not even conceivable but for a prodigy.

[lostinidlewonder]

  Why the hell would i say a suggestion is good, if none of them give results like you suggest they should.

Because you cannot get it through your head that it is because you are doing it wrong that the suggestion will not help. You seem to fail to understand this logical connection for some obscure reason. It was demonstrated to you in the videos you deleted how you were doing a practice method incorrect.

There is nothing at all that i can do or implement, whereby oh wow after 3 weeks of trying im going to be 30% faster or 30% less errors in some particular passage or exercise.

Because you don't know if you are doing it correct or not. You have over confidence in yourself that everything you do is correct. You deleted the videos which demonstrated you cannot follow our controlled pause advice completely correct, this was all pointed out to you and quickly ignored by you. Throughout that video you were expressing how perfect and exact you were following the instruction yet you were making all these unpianistic movements which were not helping your progress.

Such a thing doesn't exist.It's not happening.No matter what anybody suggests, or how earnestly i implement it will result in the kind of gains you seem to think are normal.No body can actually tell me just how long its supposed to take to even get a passage like i posted correctly up to a high tempo.4 weeks.A year.20 years? How long does it normally take.Can't get any answer.

You can't get an answer because you do not follow the instructions appropriately and go off in your own methods which are not helpful. It was already described to you the three ways in which people who are studying with a teacher might practice. You seem to enjoy just going off on your own path and then wonder why its not working. You follow instructions in a manner YOU think is correct yet you require an instructor to correct your mistakes if you are to break away from this cycle.

[pianodannn]

This is severely short sighted on your behalf. It has already been proven that you do not follow instructions exactly as suggested. In your videos it was shown a number of issues which were not correct. You quickly deleted these videos because throughout you were constantly running your mouth off saying how correct and perfect you were doing it and once your errors were pointed out it just made you look a little silly. You even though before posting these videos there was no way you could be doing them wrong here is a reminder:

LOST SAID:
PIANODANNN response
After such unfounded confidence isn't it important that you become aware that you were in the end utterly mistaken? Doesn't that make you wonder what other issues you have got wrong? Perhaps this thought doesn't come across your closed mind and you much prefer to blame the advice lol!!

So the logical conclusion is because you do not follow instructions appropriately that any advice given to you naturally will be useless, this is your problem not the advice.

Piano education is my profession for many years, I do know more than you know about the topic, that is just a fact. So I am saying your ideas are crazy and wrong because they are, with appropriate instruction you would realize why. If you cannot understand why 100 hours to gain 1bmp is insane then who can help you here?

The reality is that you do not follow instructions correctly. It was already pointed out in your attempt to try to video yourself doing what we advised. It was shown that what you did was not correct and had errors. You never posted another video proving that you actually could do exactly as we ask. The only videos we have seen is the one where you made errors but ran your mouth off throughout the video saying how perfect you were. You deleted these videos because it was shown how wrong you were. Your attitude just stinks really. That is the factual reality of the situation.
Yes move on, if you want to try and denigrate advice from a number of knowledgable people here who have done more than they should have to try and help you, you will have me constantly responding to your irrational attitude. Please post a video of you doing exactly as we asked, I will happily point out your errors again to show you it is your own fault not the advice.

    I don't need to post a video.I don't need to show that ive been holding, calculating, then jumping.It's done.End of story.The results are very slow and small.You'll have to come up with far more than that.
      What about the fact i cannot transition from one note in to the chord to the next in a short enough period of time, or a consistent enough period of time, or that randomly i cant hit the correct note in the chord sequence.You don't give any answers for that.Or that jumping hand positions always produces errors in  spacial accuracy i.e hit the mark sometimes, and not others.You don't answer or adress that.You have no solutions for that.  Nor does any teacher, because it is all performed subconsciously and there are no set of instructions to correct that stuff. Doing practice or drills of any kind doesn't correct those things.