Fingering Challenge!!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

I feel like you are twisting my words here. I never said "good" or "efficient" or "optimal" fingering produces poor musicality. What I said was, "some pianists may decide to compromise a little bit on [economy] in order to serve the music better."

I am not twisting anything at all I am elaborating on the situation. You clearly wanted to remove the efficiency from the solution, I already quoted what you wrote in that respect. So it didn't make sense what fingerings you want if you don't want efficiency to have anything to do with it. The optimal fingerings as I have already said over and over again will be efficient AND allow the musicality freedom to come through. You also only take a fragment from my entire post and commented on that only, I did say a lot more than just that.

In any case, like you said, we need to get the topic back on track. I doubt anyone else will submit their solutions so do you want to post yours before I make my case?

I prefer to let the question stand for others to answer I already know these solutions inside out. If you don't want to wait and want to provide commentary before anyone responds go ahead there's no problem in that, it's up to you.

*on second thought I'll meet you half way so you don't think Im being obstinate. I am not going to be near a PC any time soon so this is the best I can respresent it.
Beethoven:
4    131242 1(3replace thumb)124321 3423 3423 1312 1312
This is a refined fingering which avoids the mindless solution of merely using the same fingers or providing fingering that ignores the articulation.

[klavieronin]

I am not twisting anything at all I am elaborating on the situation. You clearly wanted to remove the efficiency from the solution…

Then I have to apologise for not being clear in my original question. What a said was; "I'm looking for not the most "efficient" or "optimal" fingering but rather, a fingering that effectively brings out the rhythm of the music."

That was poor phrasing. I did not mean that efficiency should be eliminated from the equation. What I meant was that "efficiency" should not be the primary focus in this exercise.

But I think this is the core of our disagreement. I suspect we may be working with different definitions of "efficiency" here but you seem to believe that the most efficient fingering will, as a natural consequence, bring out the music most effectively. In my view, however, occasionally the pros and cons of certain fingerings will have to be weighed up by the pianist and at certain times they might decide that sacrificing a little bit of efficiency/economy/ease/etc. is justified given the musical context.

Like I said, I suspect we may be working with different definitions of "efficiency" and I think maybe your definition includes this weighing up of the pros and cons of certain fingerings in order to land on one that strikes the right balance. I this correct?

[Edit]

I you want to wait for others to submit their solution first that's fine but I think we'll be waiting a long time.

[lostinidlewonder]

I already defined what efficiency means, it means it is physically easy to play AND promotes the musicality. End of story. There is no segregation of the two. Look above I edited my previous post to include fingering for the Beethoven which is the more challenging of the two questions you posted.

[klavieronin]

I already defined what efficiency means, it means it is physically easy to play AND promotes the musicality.

Was that in your original post? Or was it after I posted my challenge? I can't find it.

[lostinidlewonder]

After you suggested confusion as to what efficient means. Let's focus on fingering now.

[klavieronin]

Also

Beethoven:
4    131242 1(3replace thumb)124321 3423 3423 1312 1312
This is a refined fingering which avoids the mindless solution of merely using the same fingers or providing fingering that ignores the articulation.

Nice solution! This one I have no criticism for. It does a nice job of bringing out the articulation AND feels natural under the hands.

[lostinidlewonder]

At least fingering is a universal language in this case.

[ranjit]

I you want to wait for others to submit their solution first that's fine but I think we'll be waiting a long time.

I find this really fun and educational, keep em coming.

Here's my solution for the Beethoven (I made sure not to glance at lostinidlewonder's fingering):
3 23 2353 1 23 4321 3523 2323 1314 2323

[ranjit]

I found the Ravel incredibly difficult. Here goes nothing:
513 213 23 13 23 123 13 24 323 412 314 3 14 3->5 31 231 425 4 24 123 3

[klavieronin]

Okay, enough suspense. Here is my little essay on fingering. I don't necessarily advocate for the fingerings that follow. I simply want to highlight some interesting choices by accomplished pianists that appear to put musicality ahead of comfort or ease of performance. Make of this what you will;

The first solution to the Beethoven:


This is from Artur Schnabel's edition of the Beethoven sonatas. At first glance this looks kind of ridiculous but it appears as though Schnabel felt it was justified by the musical effect produced by this fingering.

This isn't the only case of an unusual fingering being recommended for musical effect. A similar fingering was recommended by Rachmaninoff in the left hand of his Etude Tableaux, Op.39, No.4. He was clearly after a particular musical effect here and felt it important enough to write the fingering in, something which he wasn't prone to doing.


For me, a much more balanced solution is Barenboim's. He retains some small elements of Schnabel's fingering but his fingering fits under the hands beautifully but also makes sure to prepare the hands for what's about to be played;


Now I want to quote from Penelope Roskell's "The Art of Piano Fingering":

"So far in this book, we have concentrated mainly on how to equalise the fingers in order to achieve a homogenous, even effect in scale and arpeggio playing. However, the fingers are not equal - the thumb is more ponderous and heavy, the fingers more nimble, with the second and third being stronger than the fourth and fifth. At times we have to work hard to even out these differences, but at other times we should exploit them to the full."

She then gives this example of Vlado Perlemuter's fingering for the Ravel example. Perlemuter had a 70 year career as a concert pianist and worked with Ravel personally to prepare for performing his music.


In this example, Perlemuter chose to have the thumb play the first note of each beat, helping to promote the driving rhythm of the music. This leads to some rather awkward moments technically but, again, it appears as though Perlemuter felt this was justified by the musical effect.

This would be a more standard fingering and one that fits more naturally under the hands but which, arguably, lacks the punch of Perlemuter's;


One last little anecdote. When I was at university, a friend of mine was learning one of the Rachmaninoff etudes. However, being a rather short and light framed young lady couldn't quite manage the full sound she was after in some of the bass notes. Her professor told her to play them with the side of her hand (the knuckle of her 5th finger). The result was spectacular. Moral of the story; sometimes the best results come from unusual solutions, and not every solution is appropriate for every pianist.

[ranjit]

Interesting discussion, although I will admit that I feel bummed that I couldn't think of these fingerings. I'll take heart in the fact that your Ravel "standard" fingering is pretty much the one I suggested.

[lostinidlewonder]

Schnabels fingering is just exhausting and offers no benefit. Barenboim is ok but with some subtle inefficiencies. The Rach has no real connection to the coupled phrasing fingerings of the Beethoven as it's the synergy between the hands of a totally different idea that causes 12121 in the lh to be a possibility.

Yes we have different hands but the average hand is much more a common situation. It is best to know the standard solutions and then make adjustments if your physique requires it. I teach some students with a short 2nd finger and this can be problematic, I've taught one with fingers so thick they  can't fit between the black notes, but a large % follow the standard solutions. In this thread the standard must be described since trying to accommodate for all different hand types just makes this discussion very silly. We should discuss what is the solution  for the standard pianist hand and those who can't do that then edit using the standard solution as a compass.

I suggest also discussing fingerings that people personally know, have determined and advocate because I feel if I critique fingerings from someone who can't defend themselves it's not very fair.

[ranjit]

I wonder what you think of my fingerings. I spent quite a bit of effort on them and would welcome a critique.

[klavieronin]

Schnabels fingering is just exhausting and offers no benefit. Barenboim is ok but with some subtle inefficiencies. The Rach has no real connection to the coupled phrasing fingerings of the Beethoven as it's the synergy between the hands of a totally different idea that causes 12121 in the lh to be a possibility.

Yes we have different hands but the average hand is much more a common situation. It is best to know the standard solutions and then make adjustments if your physique requires it. I teach some students with a short 2nd finger and this can be problematic, I've taught one with fingers so thick they  can't fit between the black notes, but a large % follow the standard solutions. In this thread the standard must be described since trying to accommodate for all different hand types just makes this discussion very silly. We should discuss what is the solution  for the standard pianist hand and those who can't do that then edit using the standard solution as a compass.

I suggest also discussing fingerings that people personally know, have determined and advocate because I feel if I critique fingerings from someone who can't defend themselves it's not very fair.

I think I'm going to bow out of the conversation here then. If there is nothing to be learned from studying the fingering choices of great pianists then you certainly aren't going to learn anything useful from me. Besides, it's starting to feel like this is less a conversation about fingering and more of a lecture in lostinidlewonder's Principles of Good Fingering. Maybe that should be the title of the thread.

I wonder what you think of my fingerings. I spent quite a bit of effort on them and would welcome a critique.

ranjit, I thought your finger was fine but a times felt like it was more of a legato fingering. You can take advantage of the fact that these passages are not purely legato and give yourself a little more freedom and flexibility in your fingering choices. Still, better to wait until you hear lostinidlewonder's opinion. This is his thread. I'm sure he'll be able to give you a thorough break-down on where you went wrong and why his fingering is preferable.

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread is about being PRECISE thus avoiding generic ramblings. I merely ask you to provide info that you personally support and know. If you copy paste ideas from others there is limited discussion. Anyone can seek such info that is already there in print. You also notice ranjit has asked for analysis of his fingers so since you posted the challenge you could respond to his solutions IN DETAIL using exact finger numbers and providing commentary rather than copy pasting someone else's solution or commenting with generic responses which are unspecific. I hope you see how discussion is important and your take on it seems to limit that especially since you did  not contend with the solutions given to your challenge in any detail at all. Why not discuss the spiccato articulation in the Ravel in terms of the fingering which is the ultimate reasoning for different fingering options? That is the logical position to take based on the fingering suggestions. You said things like " lacks the punch" such a generic answer which could mean anything at all, why not support yourself with the actual fingering and score? We have more than enough generic answers floating through the piano discussions boards, this thread is about being very precise. Your confidence that you could demonstrate segregation of efficiency and efficacy in terms of fingerings was not satistifed as I inferred a number of posts ago.

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder in any case.

I think I'm going to bow out of the conversation here then. If there is nothing to be learned from studying the fingering choices of great pianists then you certainly aren't going to learn anything useful from me. Besides, it's starting to feel like this is less a conversation about fingering and more of a lecture in lostinidlewonder's Principles of Good Fingering. Maybe that should be the title of the thread.

ranjit, I thought your finger was fine but a times felt like it was more of a legato fingering. You can take advantage of the fact that these passages are not purely legato and give yourself a little more freedom and flexibility in your fingering choices. Still, better to wait until you hear lostinidlewonder's opinion. This is his thread. I'm sure he'll be able to give you a thorough break-down on where you went wrong and why his fingering is preferable.

You posted the question so it's your duty to fully answer all peoples responses why should I do your work, your attitude certainly doesn't prompt me to help you. You should logically know the solutions fully otherwise how can there be any discussion at all?

Don't be afraid that there are people who are confident in their knowledge, I feel tall poppy syndrome runs in your veins so perhaps yes it's best you avoid commenting here. In any case I am totally capable running this entire thread for years on end posting thousands of questions and fully supporting myself and commenting on other people's solutions to questions they answer, that's been my job for almost 30 years. If people don't respond I'll just give solutions I'm totally happy to reveal the fingering education without anyone else, if they respond wanting some experienced teachers opinion about their fingering choice then I am happy to donate my time to do so. I don't feel like analysing your fingerings in depth and gave reasons why already.

You remember you started on about what efficient means now you start again on respecting many hand types with your university story and earlier on hand shapes , what is next? You can always create your own thread if you don't want to focus on efficient finger numbers and discussion that stems from that in detail as my OP encouraged. The efficient solution for the average hand is a perfect answer, those with different hand types will use that as a compass and make adjustments as they need.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE NO 3:

Here is a rather easy one but with a little point that I feel people can easily miss, what is the most efficient fingering for the scale in the RH?

[perfect_pitch]

Seems this topic has gotten a little 'charged' since I last took part. I'm going to just sit this thread out... and watch from closed doors.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lol, well I'll keep it running as my other threads. Take over the forum lol. In any case if people complain or take this seriously it doesn't matter, you can't control what occurs online. This forum is very quiet so I would expect things like this to be promoted and the crying kept to a limit, though you know me, I won't have people saying things without me playing devils advocate, test those arguments that is what this is thread is about. So sick of constant generalisations let's be concrete.

Scale above is easy but a single trick to consider (if you do it or not is not the end of the world but if we want to consider the most efficient answer I think it's a subtle point which is interesting, it is actually an idea I did mention earlier in thread), I'll reveal it in the not too distant future if no one attempts it. Don't be afraid, I do bite but it's not really that hard. 

[lelle]

CHALLENGE NO 3:

Here is a rather easy one but with a little point that I feel people can easily miss, what is the most efficient fingering for the scale in the RH?

Wonder what you'll cook up now in terms of fingerings? I could see myself doing any of these:

543 2132 13212
543 2132 14323
432 1432 13212
432 1432 14323

[lostinidlewonder]

Hi lelle. Of course all of the fingerings you provided are fine let's try to appraise them.

543 2132 13212
This is what the majority of people would gravitate toward. There is ultimately nothing wrong with doing this fingering. There is good synergy between the hands in the 2nd group Rh2 works very well with the LH which also plays 2. The RH thumb in the 3rd group also comes together with the thumb in the LH, so this fingering has good synergy with the LH since the same fingers are all coming together, this feels secure.

432 1432 13212
This fingering is also quite ok, it is nice to have the thumb of a scale come together with the other hand and in your 2nd group we do have the RH 1 coming together with the LH 2. Different fingers but the thumb in the RH is a very secure finger to coordinate together with the LH so there is no problem here also even though the same fingers are not occuring. In the 3rd group the RH 1 again comes together with the LH. So some people might prefer this because the thumbs in the RH are always coming together with the LH, this keeps the coordination simple and thus logically it is also an ok solution.

432 1432 14323
The only problem with this is the final 4 crossing over, it is unnecessary and over emphasis on 4 crossings. The 2nd solution which is like the first also has this 4 cross in the last group.

Another solution to contend with is the addition of thinking about the colour (black/white) of the 3rd finger as it plays through the scale. It is generally a good idea to keep the 3rd finger the same colour throughout if the synergy between the hands can allow for it.

Thus this solution is like the 1st solution with the same fingers coming together but also preserves the colour of the 3rd finger (keeping it black throughout) which further strengthens the solution.

543 2143 1321 2

The LH later on (which was cut off) mimics the same scale and can also be done with that 3rd finger remaining on the same colour. (123 4123 1234 3). The idea of the 3rd finger in both hands always being black is quite a secure and consistent feeling throughout.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE NO 4:
Here is a well known piece written in about ten billion different ways. This this one is challenging because there are so many possible solutions but which one feels best for both hands working together?

[ranjit]

I'll come up with my response in a couple of days, so mark my spot lol. Feeling really tired right now.

[lostinidlewonder]

No rush I'll leave this one up for a while.

[ranjit]

After looking at it for a bit, I have nothing much to offer. You can go ahead and post your solution.

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you mean the challenge is too tricky? 😀

[lostinidlewonder]

Some brief commentary.

-RH at the start uses 12 (12) rather than 13 (13). Firstly playing 12 (12) (24)32 (24) is easier than 13 (13) (35)43 (35). However more importantly is the position control you have playing (12) in the last bar of the first line and the two bars of the 2nd line.

compare this inferior fingering:
last bar line 1:   (13) (15)43 
1st+2nd bar line 2   (25) (13)(24)(25)12

to a much better solution:
last bar line 1:   (12) (14)32 
1st+2nd bar line 2   (14) (13)(24)(25)12

The thumb picking out the lower voice (which is a common theme in piano technique) rather maintains a steady position without the need for moving the hand.


-LH has some interesting points. playing "how sweet" (12) moving to the octaves of Bb and following that "the sound" using (51) 3 rather than the stagnant position of (52) 3 allows the 3 to transfer to the F easier. The 3 must transfer to F so that what follows can be played without positional changes. If you keep the 2nd finger of the F which seems easier at first you merely trap yourself having to create a multiple movements of the LH to deal with the last bars.

for example, inferior would be:
2nd last bar line 1:     2 (13)  (14) (53)21
1st+2nd bar line 2:   (13) 2(13)  (24)

an even worse solution would be
2nd last bar line 1:     2 (13)  (14) (54)32
1st+2nd bar line 2:   (12) 2(13)  (24)
The LH here is just far too busy, moving to (54) is an awkward position to suddenly include and on the 2nd line the 2nd finger moving about is unncessary.

Better is
2nd last bar line 1:     3 (14)  (15) (53)21
1st+2nd bar line 2:   (13) 2(13)  (24)
Which just requires the (13) hop and everything is controlled and since pedal can be used it is all fine.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE NO 5:
How to produce a smooth effect with these thirds? Short but a tricky problem if you are not familiar with this style.

[ranjit]

CHALLENGE NO 5:
How to produce a smooth effect with these thirds? Short but a tricky problem if you are not familiar with this style.

How about 23  14 25 34 15?

[ranjit]

Do you mean the challenge is too tricky? 😀

Sort of, yes. I've never worked with similar figures, and with all of those thirds in a sequence, there are so many possibilities to consider.

[lostinidlewonder]

How about 23  14 25 34 15?

It's close to the solution, I find that the (23)(14)(25) having the 2 move is not as comfortable as using the thumb. And instead of (34), (23) would be easier too, thus:
(13) (24)(15)(23)(15)    (24)
This is the opening RH of the Chopin Nocturne Op.37 No.2

I think using (15) with thirds can be quite confronting for developing pianists but a good tool to be aware of.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE NO 6:
This one is not too challenging, what fingering in the LH keeps this phrased correctly? I've cut it up so it might look slighly odd.

[lelle]

It's close to the solution, I find that the (23)(14)(25) having the 2 move is not as comfortable as using the thumb. And instead of (34), (23) would be easier too, thus:
(13) (24)(15)(23)(15)    (24)
This is the opening RH of the Chopin Nocturne Op.37 No.2

I think using (15) with thirds can be quite confronting for developing pianists but a good tool to be aware of.

Ha, the fingering in the screenshot is the one I was going to suggest. I win a cookie!

I could also consider using 32 and sliding the two if 31 with the thumb on a black key feels uncomfortable.

[lostinidlewonder]

Good one lelle there might be some cookie crumbs left, here you go.  The thumb on black here should feel totally fine, it is important that it is something that feels natural and not be avoided. How the thumb is sequencing feels good; thumb on, thumb off, thumb on thumb off, wax on, wax off. lol

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE NO 6:
This one is not too challenging, what fingering in the LH keeps this phrased correctly? I've cut it up so it might look slighly odd.

The piece is from Godowsky's Java Suite, Hari Besaar, The Great Day. A wonderful collection of works that is under appreciated.

[anacrusis]

Tricky passage. I'm unsure what I would do. There are alternatives but not sure they are optimal.

[lostinidlewonder]

Here's part of the solution: 3212 (531) you notice that it allows legato with the fingers thus paying respect to the legato tie.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't believe there are any other options to this one.

[lelle]

That looks reasonable to me. I tend to like fingerings where you go up 32 and then you go back to the same note as 3 played but with 1.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes those consecutive fingers tend to feel secure lelle.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE No 7:
So I've cut this one up again as you might notice.This is from quite an awesome piece which isn't noticed that much. Some might be unfamiliar with the old pedalling system, Ped means to hold down the sustain pedal and the asterisk * means to release it, so in this case every odd group of semiquavers the pedal is held and even even group they are done without pedal. This passage is very fast so appropriate fingering is required to be able to execute it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Some hints, the octaves are played with a mixture of 15 and 14, and the centre notes are 2 or 3. Also positional control of black white / inside outside positions need consideration.

[lostinidlewonder]

So this extract is from the Russian composer Lyapunov, his Transcendental Etude No. 6 "Tempête". Lyapunov is sometimes considered the "Russian Liszt", his teacher Karl Klindworth was a pupil of Liszt. The whole set of etudes Lyapunov wrote were dedicated to the memory of Liszt.

Combining 14/15 consecutively seems to be the best solution for speed and ease of playing. If everything is done simply with 15 and no 14 then the positional changes are too abrupt for the speed required. Combining 14/15 allows you to control the position as a whole halving the shifts of the upper part of the hand rather than all segmented positions with 15/15. The only point where using 14/15 might feel a stretch is group 5 and 6 on the E octaves moving to the F#, although it is a perfectly fine solution, if it is too large one could use 15 on the E octaves and 15 on the F# thought it breaks the uniform pattern, one might be tempted to use 14 on the F# although it furthermore then disrupts the consistency of 14/15 pattern that should follow.


groups: 5-10
--- ---
--- --- 142 512
142 513! 142 512
--- --- --- ---

This here is the most challenging part of the passage posted. It would be a good idea to repeat these groups until it becomes confident then the rest of the patterns are rather easy by comparison. Here I put a 3! as the 3 prepares the hand to move back down which may be easy to miss, and since we are aiming for speed these kind of positional preparations are very helpful. There is an error I feel in the tempo marking it has a dotted crotchet written down which is rather insanely fast, I feel it should only be a crotchet, almost all recordings follow a crotchet = ~90bpm.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE No 8: So here is a very basic example from the website https://www.music-for-music-teachers.com/

This piece is meant for early beginners but it seems to have got the fingerings wrong! Can you find the errors and correct it?

[lelle]

I think the 5 in bar 7 is quite strange, it prevents you from playing legato.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes I agree. What would you do instead?

[lostinidlewonder]

Hint: I would suggest using a 4 at the start of this piece, then all of a sudden things becomes easier. There is one little trick in the fingerings with the quavers though.

[brogers70]

I'd guess that for some reason the author of this book for early beginners wanted to avoid crossing over the thumb at this point in the student's progress, and that that is why he ended up with a fingering that's less than ideal for making a legato line.

[lostinidlewonder]

The cross over is not anything that should be avoided even at the very early stages. The sub optimal fingerings to avoid it produce awkward positional change movements such as in  Bar 5 the 2 moving to the E to allow the hand to move up, and then at the end of Bar 6 leading into 7 using the 5 two times in a row. It is just a muddle of mess to encourage any beginner to do such things.

[lelle]

Hint: I would suggest using a 4 at the start of this piece, then all of a sudden things becomes easier. There is one little trick in the fingerings with the quavers though.

Yeah I thought about starting on 4 and crossing over the thumb, it seemed natural to me when you take in the melody as a whole. I just wasn't sure if that was "allowed" in this simple beginners piece.

[lostinidlewonder]

I teach little beginner 4 year olds to cross over the thumb so I feel it is a technique that is easily within the scope of early beginner skills.