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Who's etudes were best?

Chopin's (op. 10 and op. 25): 5 (50%)
Liszt's (Paganini and Transcendental, including 1837/8 versions): 1 (10%)
Debussy's: 2 (20%)
Godowsky's (Studies on Chopin's etudes): 0 (0%)
Schumann's (Symphonic Etudes op. 13): 0 (0%)
Czerny's: 0 (0%)
Rachmaninoff's (Etudes Tableaux op. 33 and op. 39): 1 (10%)
Scriabin's (op. 12 and op. 42): 1 (10%)
Bartok's: 0 (0%)
Alkan's: 0 (0%)
Other (comment below): 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 10

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Topic: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes? (Read 2749 times)

liszt-and-the-galops

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Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

on: May 16, 2024, 05:26:10 PM

Who's etudes were best and who's etudes were hardest?

Personally,
Hardest: Liszt, followed very closely by Godowsky.
note: I personally find many of Ligeti's etudes to be overrated in terms of difficulty.

Best: Chopin.

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lelle

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #1 on: May 16, 2024, 08:03:07 PM

Best: Chopin

Hardest: Godowsky probably

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transitional

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #2 on: May 16, 2024, 09:54:25 PM

Best: Debussy

Hardest: Godowsky

Also, don't forget Rachmaninoff and Scriabin's Etudes for the poll.

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last 3 schubert sonatas and piano trios are something else

liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #3 on: May 16, 2024, 10:11:35 PM

Quote from: transitional on May 16, 2024, 09:54:25 PM

Best: Debussy

Hardest: Godowsky

Also, don't forget Rachmaninoff and Scriabin's Etudes for the poll.

I literally had just hopped on because I remembered Scriabin's etudes existed lol.

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mjames

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #4 on: May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

Hardest? Probably something weird by like Sorabji.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #5 on: May 16, 2024, 11:07:08 PM

Quote from: mjames on May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

Hardest? Probably something weird by like Sorabji.

Searched up Sorabji etudes... Apparently the complete set of 100 is more than 7 hours long, and many of them have never been performed.
Let's ignore stuff from Sorabji and onwards.

lol

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 01:43:55 AM

Maybe you could add Bartok's etudes? I've been listening to them, and it's not really my cup of tea, but people say it's pretty hard, and maybe you might enjoy them.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #7 on: May 17, 2024, 09:36:49 AM

Quote from: mjames on May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

I agree that objectively speaking Chopin's are the best. But on a personal taste level I just don't like them so went with Debussy which were influential in their own right on contemporary piano music and make you wonder what else he'd have written had he lived longer, moving away from the style everyone associates with him.

Hardest of the standard sets I'd say either Godowsky for traditional difficulty and Ligeti because they require mastery of things you don't find in standard piano repertoire (eg the multiple downbeats in Automne á Varsovie)

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pianistavt

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #8 on: May 17, 2024, 11:04:46 AM

I was just thinking about making a post about etudes - getting a comprehensive list, what people have played, etc

A few more:
Bartok - 3 etudes op 18
Clementi - Gradus ad Parnassum
Mendelssohn - 3 etudes op 104b
Messiaen - Quatre Études de Rythme
Moscheles - 24 etudes op 70
Moskowski - 15 Etudes de Virtuosité, Op.72
Moskowski - 20 Petites Etudes, Op.91
Moskowski - 12 Left Hand Etudes, Op.92
Prokofiev - 4 etudes op 2
Szymanowski - 4 etudes op 4
Szymanowski - 12 etudes op 33

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ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #9 on: May 17, 2024, 02:22:00 PM

Liapunov, eg

Henselt, eg

Also, Alkan.

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tenpasten

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #10 on: May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

Scriabin for me. Mostly because of the musicality. I have found it hard to connect with a lot of Liszt etudes because I can't feel very much emotion (this is just me being naive, I'm sure with time I will come to appreciate them). But there is something special about Scriabin's. Especially op 42 4-8. These are some of the finest. Honourable mentions to Op 12 no 2 and no 12- the second version in particular (if you haven't heard it please go and find it on youtube, I think it edges out the original despite having a slightly worse coda)
Rachmaninoff as well, particularly Op 33 no 3, Op 39 no 5 and Op 39 no 8.
These are purely based on enjoyment whilst listening and playing, though I must say op 39 no 5 and op 42 no 5 have been quite a challenge that I haven't quite bested.
While never having played any chopin (if someone could give some recommendations that would be great), I am quite partial to listening to the Ocean etude. Something immensely satisfying about that onslaught of sound.
Just my take. Thanks.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #11 on: May 17, 2024, 04:12:26 PM

Quote from: tenpasten on May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

if someone could give some recommendations that would be great

Well, we're on the topic of etudes. 10/9 and 25/9 are pretty good. So is the black keys Etude, 10/5. The Trois Nouvelles Etudes are also pretty decent and much easier than any of the original 24.

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iamdopeuarenope

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #12 on: May 17, 2024, 04:17:12 PM

Best - Chopin

Hardest - Merceux maybe?

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #13 on: May 17, 2024, 11:23:27 PM

Quote from: iamdopeuarenope on May 17, 2024, 04:17:12 PM

Best - Chopin

Hardest - Merceux maybe?

Guessing you meant Mereaux. And yeah, his etudes are pretty insane.

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pianistavt

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #14 on: May 18, 2024, 02:24:20 PM

Quote from: tenpasten on May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

While never having played any chopin (if someone could give some recommendations that would be great), I am quite partial to listening to the Ocean etude. Something immensely satisfying about that onslaught of sound.

Agreed about Chopin etude 25/12 - that was the first etude I worked on, probably for similar reasons. All the Chopin etudes are transcendental - conceiving of new sounds/sonorities of the piano that no one had conceived before.
If you like it, you should play it, it's certainly within your skill level, based on the other pieces you've mentioned.

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #15 on: August 17, 2025, 12:47:21 PM

Notably, Czerny's studies are omitted from the discussion, though listed on the poll. Understandable, since their place in the repertoire is 99.9% pedagogical. But why get strapped down by tradition? Marc Andre Hamelin included Czerny study op 740 no 4 in one of his large-audience, "serious" concerts. (It's somewhere on YT). If played well they can bring some enjoyable effervescence to a program - - works well as a transition from Bach to Beethoven.

The "Hardest", "Best" function well to stir up discussion. And there are other quality peaks that may be thought provoking: "most innovative technically", "most innovative harmonically (for that time)", "most beautiful", "most ingenious" (integrating many facets of composition into a unified whole), "most profound", "most visionary".

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #16 on: August 17, 2025, 05:09:16 PM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on August 17, 2025, 12:47:21 PM

The "Hardest", "Best" function well to stir up discussion. And there are other quality peaks that may be thought provoking: "most innovative technically", "most innovative harmonically (for that time)", "most beautiful", "most ingenious" (integrating many facets of composition into a unified whole), "most profound", "most visionary".

IMO:
most innovative technically -- almost certainly Méreaux, though I could see a case for Liszt's S. 137/140 Etudes
most innovative harmonically -- could honestly see this being any of Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy, Sorabji, or Ligeti; probably others that I'm forgetting/'not aware of
most beautiful -- obviously very subjective, but IMO Chaminade's Op. 35 Etudes de Concert are up there with Alkan's Op. 39 for the top spot
most "ingenious" -- depends on if you're going by the whole set or individual etudes; if whole set then probably Sorabji, considering that he wrote 100 Etudes in a single set (all of which were intended to also be music, rather than purely for pedagogy), but if individual etudes then almost undoubtedly Alkan.

Not doing the last two because "profoundness" and "visionary-ness" are weird things to use to compare different pieces ("ingenious-ness" was already stretching it). I will also split the "best" category in two, though:
favorite -- Liszt (S. 137/139/140/142/143/144/145; don't like S. 141 that much)
"greatest" (most monumental, could be influential or not) -- Alkan (Op. 39 and Op. 76 in particular; I'd argue that his Op. 39 is the single greatest work for solo piano ever written).

Thanks for reviving this thread, by the way! :)

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 12:55:24 PM

I don't see Philip Glass' etudes listed.
And he's still alive - hope he didn't read this post!

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 01:09:58 PM

Quote from: liszt-and-the-galops on August 17, 2025, 05:09:16 PM

"greatest" (most monumental, could be influential or not) -- Alkan (Op. 39 and Op. 76 in particular; I'd argue that his Op. 39 is the single greatest work for solo piano ever written).

Thanks for reviving this thread, by the way! :)

Alkan just gives me a headache.

To be fair ....

Ronald Smith, a great proponent of Alkan, was one of the first pianists I ever heard. my grandfather gave me this record one christmas

https://www.discogs.com/release/17739649-Ronald-Smith-Classical-Piano-Favourites

It led me to much greater interest in piano music.

but I don't think he was the greatest of musicians.

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 01:19:15 PM

Quote from: essence on Yesterday at 01:09:58 PM

Alkan just gives me a headache.

I attended a party at a co-operative house last winter, and they had some house rules posted (over the toilet). The standard ones were there, but I saw one I hadn't seen: "don't yuk someone's yay".
That made me think.
It's truly changed my behavior, because I, like you, am inclined to express my criticisms of what I don't care for, but if you think about it - - especially some simplistic crack - - it's rather separative and antagonistic. Of course those values are celebrated in some threads on here.

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 01:36:41 PM

Early in my career I had a manager who had a soft spot for Alkan.

I think the appropriate term is 'intentionally contrary'.

I can;t stand minimalists either! Prefer Birtwhistle or Boulez. but others say they give them headaches.

Once heard an electronic music concert where they played Xenakis very very loud on 8 speakers around the auditorium in the Almeida theatre. Everybody had a headache. [I did participate myself in several electronic music events, as part of the west Square Ensemble under Barry Anderson].

I wish a few other people would participate in these discussions.

Maybe not etudes, but written for learning - Bach trio sonatas.

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 01:52:43 PM

Mentioning Ronald Smith led me to my first piano album

i=CrGIzTSHOa0g00B8

which in turn to me trying to play those pieces - still trying.

I think he makes everything sound like Alkan?

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frodo10

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 02:24:32 PM

Chopin op 10 and 25 are the best IMO. Just voted. Bach 6 trio sonatas for organ are masterpieces. I listen to them often.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 05:22:51 PM

Quote from: essence on Yesterday at 01:09:58 PM

Alkan just gives me a headache.

What Alkan have you listened to that gave you that opinion?

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 07:12:39 PM

op 39.

I'm sorry I don't get him, and understand that some love him.

Marmite.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 09:59:07 PM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on Yesterday at 12:55:24 PM

I don't see Philip Glass' etudes listed.
And he's still alive - hope he didn't read this post!

I meant to listen to these, thanks for reminding me!

Also Lyapunov's set, which were mentioned near the beginning of this thread but nobody else was interested in, is wonderful. The only one that's on my bucket list to play someday is no.10 (based on the same folk dance as Islamey) but I enjoy listening to the complete set, and the Noack recording is my favourite.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 10:00:20 PM

Quote from: essence on Yesterday at 07:12:39 PM

op 39.

Who's recording(s)? If you haven't yet, I highly recommend giving Jack Gibbons' performances of nos. 2-12 (his Comme le Vent is inferior to Vincenzo Maltempo's).

I will say that Alkan's Op. 39 Etudes aren't his only downright incredible pieces. Here's just a few that shouldn't "give you a headache."

Op. 22 Nocturne (Jack Gibbons)
Op. 76 no. 3 "Hands Reunited" (Vincenzo Maltempo)
Chant Op. 38 no. 1 (Jack Gibbons)
Impromptu in F# Major (the only recording I could find is by "Gamma1734" on YT, but it's thankfully a great one)
Op. 61 Sonatine (Vincenzo Maltempo and MAH both have good performances)
Op. 33 Grande Sonate "Les Quatre Âges” (Ronald Smith)
Op. 37 Trois Marches Quasi de Cavalleria (Mark Viner).

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 11:21:57 PM

Quote from: thorn on Yesterday at 09:59:07 PM

I meant to listen to these, thanks for reminding me!
(Glass Etudes)

I listened to them in the car just last night, first few were extraordinarily tedious, then I found 4 and 5 interesting. I must have dozed because I don't recall no 6, but it's one of the more played ones (including Yuja Wang), I woke up somewhere after 7 and couldn't be bothered to check where in the set I was at for another 20 minutes. There's a lot of similarity. Not sure why Glass stuck to such a narrow scope of compositional methods for his whole career ...

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Who's etudes were best?

Topic: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes? (Read 2749 times)

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