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Who's etudes were best?

Chopin's (op. 10 and op. 25): 7 (43.8%)
Liszt's (Paganini and Transcendental, including 1837/8 versions): 3 (18.8%)
Debussy's: 2 (12.5%)
Godowsky's (Studies on Chopin's etudes): 2 (12.5%)
Schumann's (Symphonic Etudes op. 13): 0 (0%)
Czerny's: 0 (0%)
Rachmaninoff's (Etudes Tableaux op. 33 and op. 39): 1 (6.3%)
Scriabin's (op. 8 and op. 42): 1 (6.3%)
Bartok's: 0 (0%)
Alkan's (Op. 12b, 17, Op. 27, Op. 35, Op. 39, Op. 76, Etudes WoO): 0 (0%)
Mendelssohn's: 0 (0%)
Czerny's (I don't know all the Opus #s lol): 0 (0%)
Chaminade's: 0 (0%)
Other (comment below): 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

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Topic: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes? (Read 3492 times)

liszt-and-the-galops

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Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

on: May 16, 2024, 05:26:10 PM

Who's etudes were best and who's etudes were hardest?

Personally,
Hardest: Liszt, followed very closely by Godowsky.
note: I personally find many of Ligeti's etudes to be overrated in terms of difficulty.

Best: Chopin.

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lelle

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #1 on: May 16, 2024, 08:03:07 PM

Best: Chopin

Hardest: Godowsky probably

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #2 on: May 16, 2024, 09:54:25 PM

Best: Debussy

Hardest: Godowsky

Also, don't forget Rachmaninoff and Scriabin's Etudes for the poll.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #3 on: May 16, 2024, 10:11:35 PM

Quote from: transitional on May 16, 2024, 09:54:25 PM

Best: Debussy

Hardest: Godowsky

Also, don't forget Rachmaninoff and Scriabin's Etudes for the poll.

I literally had just hopped on because I remembered Scriabin's etudes existed lol.

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mjames

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #4 on: May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

Hardest? Probably something weird by like Sorabji.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #5 on: May 16, 2024, 11:07:08 PM

Quote from: mjames on May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

Hardest? Probably something weird by like Sorabji.

Searched up Sorabji etudes... Apparently the complete set of 100 is more than 7 hours long, and many of them have never been performed.
Let's ignore stuff from Sorabji and onwards.

lol

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 01:43:55 AM

Maybe you could add Bartok's etudes? I've been listening to them, and it's not really my cup of tea, but people say it's pretty hard, and maybe you might enjoy them.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #7 on: May 17, 2024, 09:36:49 AM

Quote from: mjames on May 16, 2024, 10:57:12 PM

Chopin's etudes were what broke the ground for technique and sound on the modern piano. Anything after that was just a case of re-inventing the wheel.

I agree that objectively speaking Chopin's are the best. But on a personal taste level I just don't like them so went with Debussy which were influential in their own right on contemporary piano music and make you wonder what else he'd have written had he lived longer, moving away from the style everyone associates with him.

Hardest of the standard sets I'd say either Godowsky for traditional difficulty and Ligeti because they require mastery of things you don't find in standard piano repertoire (eg the multiple downbeats in Automne á Varsovie)

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pianistavt

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #8 on: May 17, 2024, 11:04:46 AM

I was just thinking about making a post about etudes - getting a comprehensive list, what people have played, etc

A few more:
Bartok - 3 etudes op 18
Clementi - Gradus ad Parnassum
Mendelssohn - 3 etudes op 104b
Messiaen - Quatre Études de Rythme
Moscheles - 24 etudes op 70
Moskowski - 15 Etudes de Virtuosité, Op.72
Moskowski - 20 Petites Etudes, Op.91
Moskowski - 12 Left Hand Etudes, Op.92
Prokofiev - 4 etudes op 2
Szymanowski - 4 etudes op 4
Szymanowski - 12 etudes op 33

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ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #9 on: May 17, 2024, 02:22:00 PM

Liapunov, eg

Henselt, eg

Also, Alkan.

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tenpasten

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #10 on: May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

Scriabin for me. Mostly because of the musicality. I have found it hard to connect with a lot of Liszt etudes because I can't feel very much emotion (this is just me being naive, I'm sure with time I will come to appreciate them). But there is something special about Scriabin's. Especially op 42 4-8. These are some of the finest. Honourable mentions to Op 12 no 2 and no 12- the second version in particular (if you haven't heard it please go and find it on youtube, I think it edges out the original despite having a slightly worse coda)
Rachmaninoff as well, particularly Op 33 no 3, Op 39 no 5 and Op 39 no 8.
These are purely based on enjoyment whilst listening and playing, though I must say op 39 no 5 and op 42 no 5 have been quite a challenge that I haven't quite bested.
While never having played any chopin (if someone could give some recommendations that would be great), I am quite partial to listening to the Ocean etude. Something immensely satisfying about that onslaught of sound.
Just my take. Thanks.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #11 on: May 17, 2024, 04:12:26 PM

Quote from: tenpasten on May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

if someone could give some recommendations that would be great

Well, we're on the topic of etudes. 10/9 and 25/9 are pretty good. So is the black keys Etude, 10/5. The Trois Nouvelles Etudes are also pretty decent and much easier than any of the original 24.

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iamdopeuarenope

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #12 on: May 17, 2024, 04:17:12 PM

Best - Chopin

Hardest - Merceux maybe?

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #13 on: May 17, 2024, 11:23:27 PM

Quote from: iamdopeuarenope on May 17, 2024, 04:17:12 PM

Best - Chopin

Hardest - Merceux maybe?

Guessing you meant Mereaux. And yeah, his etudes are pretty insane.

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pianistavt

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #14 on: May 18, 2024, 02:24:20 PM

Quote from: tenpasten on May 17, 2024, 03:55:05 PM

While never having played any chopin (if someone could give some recommendations that would be great), I am quite partial to listening to the Ocean etude. Something immensely satisfying about that onslaught of sound.

Agreed about Chopin etude 25/12 - that was the first etude I worked on, probably for similar reasons. All the Chopin etudes are transcendental - conceiving of new sounds/sonorities of the piano that no one had conceived before.
If you like it, you should play it, it's certainly within your skill level, based on the other pieces you've mentioned.

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #15 on: August 17, 2025, 12:47:21 PM

Notably, Czerny's studies are omitted from the discussion, though listed on the poll. Understandable, since their place in the repertoire is 99.9% pedagogical. But why get strapped down by tradition? Marc Andre Hamelin included Czerny study op 740 no 4 in one of his large-audience, "serious" concerts. (It's somewhere on YT). If played well they can bring some enjoyable effervescence to a program - - works well as a transition from Bach to Beethoven.

The "Hardest", "Best" function well to stir up discussion. And there are other quality peaks that may be thought provoking: "most innovative technically", "most innovative harmonically (for that time)", "most beautiful", "most ingenious" (integrating many facets of composition into a unified whole), "most profound", "most visionary".

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #16 on: August 17, 2025, 05:09:16 PM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on August 17, 2025, 12:47:21 PM

The "Hardest", "Best" function well to stir up discussion. And there are other quality peaks that may be thought provoking: "most innovative technically", "most innovative harmonically (for that time)", "most beautiful", "most ingenious" (integrating many facets of composition into a unified whole), "most profound", "most visionary".

IMO:
most innovative technically -- almost certainly Méreaux, though I could see a case for Liszt's S. 137/140 Etudes
most innovative harmonically -- could honestly see this being any of Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Debussy, Sorabji, or Ligeti; probably others that I'm forgetting/'not aware of
most beautiful -- obviously very subjective, but IMO Chaminade's Op. 35 Etudes de Concert are up there with Alkan's Op. 39 for the top spot
most "ingenious" -- depends on if you're going by the whole set or individual etudes; if whole set then probably Sorabji, considering that he wrote 100 Etudes in a single set (all of which were intended to also be music, rather than purely for pedagogy), but if individual etudes then almost undoubtedly Alkan.

Not doing the last two because "profoundness" and "visionary-ness" are weird things to use to compare different pieces ("ingenious-ness" was already stretching it). I will also split the "best" category in two, though:
favorite -- Liszt (S. 137/139/140/142/143/144/145; don't like S. 141 that much)
"greatest" (most monumental, could be influential or not) -- Alkan (Op. 39 and Op. 76 in particular; I'd argue that his Op. 39 is the single greatest work for solo piano ever written).

Thanks for reviving this thread, by the way! :)

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #17 on: August 18, 2025, 12:55:24 PM

I don't see Philip Glass' etudes listed.
And he's still alive - hope he didn't read this post!

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #18 on: August 18, 2025, 01:09:58 PM

Quote from: liszt-and-the-galops on August 17, 2025, 05:09:16 PM

"greatest" (most monumental, could be influential or not) -- Alkan (Op. 39 and Op. 76 in particular; I'd argue that his Op. 39 is the single greatest work for solo piano ever written).

Thanks for reviving this thread, by the way! :)

Alkan just gives me a headache.

To be fair ....

Ronald Smith, a great proponent of Alkan, was one of the first pianists I ever heard. my grandfather gave me this record one christmas

https://www.discogs.com/release/17739649-Ronald-Smith-Classical-Piano-Favourites

It led me to much greater interest in piano music.

but I don't think he was the greatest of musicians.

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #19 on: August 18, 2025, 01:19:15 PM

Quote from: essence on August 18, 2025, 01:09:58 PM

Alkan just gives me a headache.

I attended a party at a co-operative house last winter, and they had some house rules posted (over the toilet). The standard ones were there, but I saw one I hadn't seen: "don't yuk someone's yay".
That made me think.
It's truly changed my behavior, because I, like you, am inclined to express my criticisms of what I don't care for, but if you think about it - - especially some simplistic crack - - it's rather separative and antagonistic. Of course those values are celebrated in some threads on here.

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #20 on: August 18, 2025, 01:36:41 PM

Early in my career I had a manager who had a soft spot for Alkan.

I think the appropriate term is 'intentionally contrary'.

I can;t stand minimalists either! Prefer Birtwhistle or Boulez. but others say they give them headaches.

Once heard an electronic music concert where they played Xenakis very very loud on 8 speakers around the auditorium in the Almeida theatre. Everybody had a headache. [I did participate myself in several electronic music events, as part of the west Square Ensemble under Barry Anderson].

I wish a few other people would participate in these discussions.

Maybe not etudes, but written for learning - Bach trio sonatas.

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #21 on: August 18, 2025, 01:52:43 PM

Mentioning Ronald Smith led me to my first piano album

i=CrGIzTSHOa0g00B8

which in turn to me trying to play those pieces - still trying.

I think he makes everything sound like Alkan?

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frodo10

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #22 on: August 18, 2025, 02:24:32 PM

Chopin op 10 and 25 are the best IMO. Just voted. Bach 6 trio sonatas for organ are masterpieces. I listen to them often.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #23 on: August 18, 2025, 05:22:51 PM

Quote from: essence on August 18, 2025, 01:09:58 PM

Alkan just gives me a headache.

What Alkan have you listened to that gave you that opinion?

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essence

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #24 on: August 18, 2025, 07:12:39 PM

op 39.

I'm sorry I don't get him, and understand that some love him.

Marmite.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #25 on: August 18, 2025, 09:59:07 PM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on August 18, 2025, 12:55:24 PM

I don't see Philip Glass' etudes listed.
And he's still alive - hope he didn't read this post!

I meant to listen to these, thanks for reminding me!

Also Lyapunov's set, which were mentioned near the beginning of this thread but nobody else was interested in, is wonderful. The only one that's on my bucket list to play someday is no.10 (based on the same folk dance as Islamey) but I enjoy listening to the complete set, and the Noack recording is my favourite.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #26 on: August 18, 2025, 10:00:20 PM

Quote from: essence on August 18, 2025, 07:12:39 PM

op 39.

Who's recording(s)? If you haven't yet, I highly recommend giving Jack Gibbons' performances of nos. 2-12 (his Comme le Vent is inferior to Vincenzo Maltempo's).

I will say that Alkan's Op. 39 Etudes aren't his only downright incredible pieces. Here's just a few that shouldn't "give you a headache."

Op. 22 Nocturne (Jack Gibbons)
Op. 76 no. 3 "Hands Reunited" (Vincenzo Maltempo)
Chant Op. 38 no. 1 (Jack Gibbons)
Impromptu in F# Major (the only recording I could find is by "Gamma1734" on YT, but it's thankfully a great one)
Op. 61 Sonatine (Vincenzo Maltempo and MAH both have good performances)
Op. 33 Grande Sonate "Les Quatre Âges” (Ronald Smith)
Op. 37 Trois Marches Quasi de Cavalleria (Mark Viner).

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #27 on: August 18, 2025, 11:21:57 PM

Quote from: thorn on August 18, 2025, 09:59:07 PM

I meant to listen to these, thanks for reminding me!
(Glass Etudes)

I listened to them in the car just last night, first few were extraordinarily tedious, then I found 4 and 5 interesting. I must have dozed because I don't recall no 6, but it's one of the more played ones (including Yuja Wang), I woke up somewhere after 7 and couldn't be bothered to check where in the set I was at for another 20 minutes. There's a lot of similarity. Not sure why Glass stuck to such a narrow scope of compositional methods for his whole career ...

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #28 on: August 28, 2025, 01:36:17 PM

Just came across these wonderful etudes by Roslavets.
Remarkable concepts in harmony and piano sound, unduly ignored by performing pianists.
I have no doubt these will stand beside Scriabin's etudes in concert programming someday.

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #29 on: August 28, 2025, 06:37:54 PM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on August 28, 2025, 01:36:17 PM

I have no doubt these will stand beside Scriabin's etudes in concert programming someday.

Not sure about that. Only listened to the first one so far, but at least stuff by Scriabin, Sorabji, et. al. sounds musical. I just did not like that etude one bit.

On a similar note, these etudes by Rudolf Willmers popped into my recommendations a little while ago. There don't seem to be any human recordings of them; possibly for good reason, as these seem to be about the same difficult as Liszt's S. 137 nos. 2 and 5 technically (not on the level of nos. 8 or 10 though). Thoughts on them?

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #30 on: August 29, 2025, 01:37:41 PM

Quote from: liszt-and-the-galops on August 28, 2025, 06:37:54 PM

On a similar note, these etudes by Rudolf Willmers popped into my recommendations a little while ago. There don't seem to be any human recordings of them; possibly for good reason, as these seem to be about the same difficult as Liszt's S. 137 nos. 2 and 5 technically (not on the level of nos. 8 or 10 though). Thoughts on them?

Nice find. The vlogger did a good job of providing background info on Willmers in the description on YT. I listened to to the entire vid. Interesting mix of classical formalism and Schumann-like concepts of piano sound and patterns. I think they should be performed, perhaps in the context of "forgotten gems of the mid 19th century". Overall, not to be taken too seriously.

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cuberdrift

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #31 on: September 08, 2025, 08:31:03 AM

Quote from: dizzyfingers on August 17, 2025, 12:47:21 PM

Notably, Czerny's studies are omitted from the discussion, though listed on the poll. Understandable, since their place in the repertoire is 99.9% pedagogical. But why get strapped down by tradition? Marc Andre Hamelin included Czerny study op 740 no 4 in one of his large-audience, "serious" concerts. (It's somewhere on YT). If played well they can bring some enjoyable effervescence to a program - - works well as a transition from Bach to Beethoven.

The "Hardest", "Best" function well to stir up discussion. And there are other quality peaks that may be thought provoking: "most innovative technically", "most innovative harmonically (for that time)", "most beautiful", "most ingenious" (integrating many facets of composition into a unified whole), "most profound", "most visionary".

Op. 740 is hardly Czerny's "best" or "hardest".

May I present his Op. 369, a masterpiece of the post-classical style and one of the hardest studies ever written in the common practice period:

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liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #32 on: September 08, 2025, 11:04:22 AM

Quote from: cuberdrift on September 08, 2025, 08:31:03 AM

Op. 740 is hardly Czerny's "best" or "hardest".

May I present his Op. 369, a masterpiece of the post-classical style and one of the hardest studies ever written in the common practice period:

Not an Etude, but IMO Czerny's best piece is the Op. 268 Sonata no. 10, which is unfortunate because it's next to unplayable at-tempo (especially the 4th movement).

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #33 on: September 11, 2025, 02:24:29 PM

Here is another set of etudes, an earlier set, by Roslavets.
Similar sound, less abstract and harmonically complex than the latter set (see above).
Beautiful music, imo.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #34 on: September 11, 2025, 10:46:12 PM

I've been listening to Nancarrow's set for player piano which are physically impossible for a human to play. Some of them are actually pretty good.

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lelle

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #35 on: September 15, 2025, 11:48:44 AM

What's the point of writing etudes that are impossible to play though? It's not like you learn or master something in that case.

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dizzyfingers

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #36 on: September 16, 2025, 09:39:27 PM

I don't think this composer has been listed yet. This set of etudes popped up on YT
Einojuhani Rautavaara, etudes, composed in 1969.
I enjoyed them, would listen to them again.

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thorn

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Re: Who wrote the best/hardest etudes?

Reply #37 on: September 17, 2025, 09:46:11 AM

Quote from: lelle on September 15, 2025, 11:48:44 AM

What's the point of writing etudes that are impossible to play though? It's not like you learn or master something in that case.

Tbf I find them more interesting as a composer than as a pianist. But on the piano front, most etudes are about showing off mastery vs learning that mastery. Do you learn Feux Follets because you want to master double note technique, or is mastery of double note technique required to approach that etude in the first place?

But anyway, the composer side of me finds the Nancarrow interesting because they raise the question of whether difficulty makes better music. And taking human ability out of the equation is a great test. Personally, I don't think it does make better music. But if you arranged one of these pieces for piano duet/trio you can guarantee some would suddenly decide they were amazing pieces and assign all kinds of expressive qualities to them. The social/psychological side of music is truly fascinating.

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