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Topic: Chopin or Liszt (Read 8631 times)

lisztener

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Chopin or Liszt

on: February 11, 2006, 02:56:51 PM

Which one of them made the most difficult etudes? Earlier when i hadn't heard so much by Choipn I assumed it was Liszt. Now I'm not so sure...

Take care /lisztener

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emmdoubleew

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 05:54:49 PM

My guess is although they both have unhumanly difficult ones, Liszt still prevails simply because he was the better pianist in terms of technique, but also because his ginormous ego probably pushed him to compose even more showoffy peices.

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cziffra

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 06:13:30 PM

Remember, liszt wrote the Grand Etudes as well, and those tromp op 10 and 25

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lisztener

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 08:59:34 PM

I'm reasonning like you emmdoubleew

Is there anyone that have played many etudes both by Liszt and Chopin who could judge a bit more certain?

Take care

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donjuan

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 06:30:27 PM

Chopin's etudes are harder because he explores all the little parts of piano playing that are uncomfortable (stretches between 2nd and 3rd fingers, for example). Liszt was a better pianist and even though his etudes often focus on a certain diffeicult technique (thinking of Mazeppa), they are usually very comfortable for the hands and musically appealing. IMO, some of Chopin's etudes are just not fun to play or listen to. I think that's part of their difficulty.

oh yeah, but those Liszt grande etudes are not for human hands... I am so glad he changed all of them except for No. 7 and No. 11, which I feel were much better the way they were.

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jas

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 08:27:30 PM

Quote from: donjuan on February 13, 2006, 06:30:27 PM

IMO, some of Chopin's etudes are just not fun to play or listen to. I think that's part of their difficulty.

That's interesting, I think it's the opposite way round! I don't particularly enjoy listening to most of Liszt's etudes, but I love Chopin's. I think they're beautiful. The only one I don't particularly like is the Octave etude, but apart from that I think they're musically far superior to Liszt's. But that's just one opinion.

Jas

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donjuan

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 11:57:26 PM

Quote from: jas on February 13, 2006, 08:27:30 PM

That's interesting, I think it's the opposite way round! I don't particularly enjoy listening to most of Liszt's etudes, but I love Chopin's. I think they're beautiful. The only one I don't particularly like is the Octave etude, but apart from that I think they're musically far superior to Liszt's. But that's just one opinion.

Jas

It's actually most people's opinion. Liszt is criticized all the time, and Chopin's music is usually considered "better" music. However, I love Liszt because he was such an incredible innovator of technique and has a magical way of making the most difficult sounding music managable to play. However, when I listen to Chopin's Butterfly etude or the Black Key etude, for example, I don't feel anything. When I try to play them, I find that I can't immediately get what I want out of it. It's like, I need to sit at the piano for hours at a time to be able to even play the melody as written. And then, as soon as I learn it, it is so easy to forget. Whereas, when I play Liszt, even if I can't get all the notes at once, the melody and harmony is obvious and I can put it together much more efficiently, and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

I dont know... I am probably very biased because I play so much Liszt and comparatively, so little Chopin. That's why I think the way I do.. But yes, absolutely, you are among many who would disagree with me, including experts, and you are all very right in doing so.

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pianowelsh

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #7 on: February 14, 2006, 12:21:18 AM

Having now played most of the Chopin studies and tackled a few of the Liszt ones I have to say although Liszt often sounds more showy I find them technically easier to learn. Etudes like op10/2/4/8/10 and 25/3/5/6/8/10/11 just arent comfortable and they are deliberately designed not to be. they dont let up either they require real technical stamina and flawless RH technique. Musically they are quite varied some are much more interesting than others - the popular ones are popular for a reason! Liszzt its ture Donjuan I find sits better under the hand once youve got it and they some how feel less risky (its hard to explain) They tend to have flashy moments more so than Chopin but are not so evenly taxing and i find often less fatiguing. I have to say musically I think many of them have more to say than the Chopin studies but then they were intended more programmatically - the Chopin ones were not - they were by and large abstract compositions as was Chopin's custom. In terms of value of study I would have to say that you need to study both because where one lacks the other builds - they complement each other well educationally. Generally speaking Liszt is much better for chords and 8ves as they will be required for repertoire Chopins chord/8ve studies tend towards the extreme and are not hugely profitable beyond their specific goal. Chopin is great for ripping around the piano at great speed and brilliance with fantastic finger work, left hand declamation and extended figuration in legato touches. I also recommend advanced students to look into debussy studies as these provide gap fillers for Chopin Liszt studies and really equip pianists for the demands of virt 20thC repertoire (and much of 20thc is virtuosic - to extreme)

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jas

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #8 on: February 14, 2006, 10:31:30 AM

Quote from: donjuan on February 13, 2006, 11:57:26 PM

When I try to play them, I find that I can't immediately get what I want out of it. It's like, I need to sit at the piano for hours at a time to be able to even play the melody as written. And then, as soon as I learn it, it is so easy to forget. Whereas, when I play Liszt, even if I can't get all the notes at once, the melody and harmony is obvious and I can put it together much more efficiently, and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

You're probably right; I wouldn't know because I haven't tried any of the Liszt etudes. I assumed (apparently wrongly) that they would be much more difficult than Chopin's. I might try to get my sticky hands on a copy...

Quote

Having now played most of the Chopin studies and tackled a few of the Liszt ones I have to say although Liszt often sounds more showy I find them technically easier to learn. Etudes like op10/2/4/8/10 and 25/3/5/6/8/10/11 just arent comfortable and they are deliberately designed not to be. they dont let up either they require real technical stamina and flawless RH technique.

Ludwig Rellstab, when he heard them for the first time, said something along the lines of, if you have twisted fingers, playing the Chopets will straighten them out, but if you don't, don't play them without a surgeon nearby.

Jas

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g_s_223

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Re: Chopin or Liszt

Reply #9 on: February 14, 2006, 02:50:42 PM

I'd say the only two Liszt studies* which are harder than the typical Chopin study are Feux Follets and Gnomenreigen. Liszt is generally very pianistic and player-friendly.

* In final versions of course.

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