Religious Debate Room Part Duex

[chopiabin]

Exactly, Ed.
I said in Westernized societies because I assume that if we are all on computers then we are all in at least somewhat Westernized societies. World policy, morality, etc. are decided by Western nations becasue they have the power.

You want to know where early societies came from? Well, this response might take a while. Think about it. Humans (animals that have simply evolved more complicated brains than other animals) have the will to survive (just like animals). They run into other humans and fight and kill each other. One day, they realize that they have to compromise to survive, and have a better chance of survival if they form small hunter-gatherer societies where some stay near the village to protect it and others find food.  

Chimpanzees also form small societies, and have their own "morality". If one chimp steals the mate of the leader, or steals food from the collective society, then he is beaten up, killed or ostracized. Chimps don't have brains as complicated as ours, so their societies are not as complicated as ours.

Also, I believe that humans have simply adapted to their environment by developing larger brains. If you look at it, we are only a step up from gorillas. Of course we want to believe that humans are special because we ARE humans. Because we have developed such complicated brains, we have the most acute sense of self-awareness of any animal.

- Takes Deep Breath -  

ChopChop

[TwinkleFingers]

Well that kinda goes against the Bible, which in its original form is 100% accurate.  God created man in His image.  Also why haven't all the other animals "evolved" into what we are or even close for that matter. P.S. gorillas I do not consider close.

[eddie92099]

Well that kinda goes against the Bible, which in its original form is 100% accurate.  

No, it is not.

God created man in His image.  Also why haven't all the other animals "evolved" into what we are or even close for that matter. P.S. gorillas I do not consider close.          

Why do you not consider them close? You certainly should do, because that's exactly what they are,
Ed

[chopiabin]

Twinkles, how many times do I have to explain this? You can NOT use the bible to prove that the bible is true. That's like trying to define a word by using the word itself. If you can show COLD, HARD FACTS, then maybe we can go somewhere.

By the way, it doesn't matter if you consider gorillas close relatives - they are, 99% of our DNA matches theirs.

What do mean about other species evolving into something like us? Not every species evolves into the same thing. They adapt to their environmentsI'm still waiting for you to prove me incorrect. NOT USING THE BIBLE!

[Wired]

Wired,iIf you want to show a flaw with the Bible, then all I have to do is say it is wrong. If it were divine truth then it should be able to prove itself beyond a doubt, and there should exist no other religions on earth. How do you explain that?

People believe what they want to believe, kind of like how people believe evolution is true.

Also, the bible says that homosexuality is wrong -  without using the bible as proof, can you prove that?

Depends what your definition of wrong is. Since morality changes from person to person, it is impossible to prove something is wrong. I could prove murder is good, or at least that I personally think it (I don't, just an example).

It also says that Jesus was resurrected and that he was divine. I believe that he existed, but that he was simply a leader who was mythologized. Without using the bible as proof, can you prove that Jesus was divine and resurrected???

No.

These are what I call flaws. Also, everything that you "google" in five minutes is not necessarily true. Those people have an agenda - they want to remove all flaws from the bible.

Funny, all they do is explain what different hebrew and greek words truly mean. Unless you are talking about the theories behind large events. Those aren't flaws. Those are things yet to be proven. As science evolves, we will be able to prove even more.

As for them being flaws, those aren't flaws. Those are things that require faith. I asked for flaws as in contradictions, physically impossible (not improbable) events, and other things along those lines. As you have just pointed out, it is impossible to prove or disprove things based upon faith.

You should read well- documented research if you want unbiased thought.

Research on hebrew and greek words? Isn't that called a dictionary?

Also, I know biology very well, and I know that all species (except for a few, who began evolution from different chemical processes - bacteria that digest sulfur for instance) ARE related. Even the most most disparate organisms have many chemical processes in common. Glycolysis is present in both bacteria AND eukaryotic cells. This provides a link between the two.

If you were to understand what unrelated species are, then you would realize that it isn't necessarily what the cells contain, but what their genetic makeup is.

[Wired]

Twinkles, how many times do I have to explain this? You can NOT use the bible to prove that the bible is true. That's like trying to define a word by using the word itself. If you can show COLD, HARD FACTS, then maybe we can go somewhere.

History basically proves it. Until you start stepping into areas that science has influenced what some historians believe about the time period (incorrectly of course), everything matches.

By the way, it doesn't matter if you consider gorillas close relatives - they are, 99% of our DNA matches theirs.

What do mean about other species evolving into something like us? Not every species evolves into the same thing. They adapt to their environmentsI'm still waiting for you to prove me incorrect. NOT USING THE BIBLE!

Yes, species adapt to their environments. However, what science has failed to prove is that given a single type of ape that you will get lots of different species (not subspecies... actual new species).

I don't have to prove you incorrect. Macroevolution hasn't been proven, so trusting it fully is incorrect in itself. You're putting faith into science, something that shouldn't require faith.

Just because we share the same gene makeup doesn't mean that we evolved from them. Science hasn't proven that the 99.4% gene similarity is even a possible outcome with evolving from previous species. Science does have an unproven timeline, which is made up of some skeletons that have a single bone. I don't know if it's still true or not, but some skeletons are totally nonexistent!

[Wired]

So, for you evolutionists: Why haven't we seen any new species formed from Humans?

Surely we aren't the perfect organism.

[Wired]

Therefore, the fact that we cannot prove god doesn't exist does not lead to the conclusion that he does

My proof directly proves that something that I call God does exist. You have to disprove science to prove me wrong on that one, yet you keep avoiding the proof.

[eddie92099]

So, for you evolutionists: Why haven't we seen any new species formed from Humans?

Surely we aren't the perfect organism.

We are constantly evolving,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

What do mean about other species evolving into something like us? Not every species evolves into the same thing. They adapt to their environmentsI'm still waiting for you to prove me incorrect. NOT USING THE BIBLE!

then why dont people who live in same enviroment as goriallas turn into gorillas or vice versa.

We are constantly evolving,
Ed

Ya I just got back from the zoo.

Wired, consider using the modify button instead of post after post. Just a thought

Why do you not consider them close? You certainly should do, because that's exactly what they are,
Ed

the only thing we have in common is that we are both mammals.

We are constantly evolving,
Ed

err adapting to enviroment.  in human history i cant think of one ape in the gene pool.

[Noah]

Ya I just got back from the zoo.

Did you get bananas from visitors today ?

[chopiabin]

Uh... Is your brain ok?
If I'm not mistaken, I just read "why don't people who live in the same habitats as gorillas turn back into gorilla?"

You obviously don't (or can't) understand evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory describes the passing down of traits through offspring which, over MILLIONS of years, results in a new species.

Please actually take the time to read some evolutionary theory (NOT some biased creationist summary!!!) and once you actually know what you are talking about get back to me.

Chopalapagos Islands (creative huh?)

[chopiabin]

Also, why don't you address the difficult issues in my posts?

[eddie92099]

Chopalapagos Islands (creative huh?)

Incredibly impressive! Surely you won't be able to maintain this high standard though. Only time will tell,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

I have noticed that many people like using history to "prove" the Bible.  I have to suggest that this is a logical fallacy.  I will make two statements.
1.  Paris is in France.
2.  God does not exist.
Obviously, the first one is true, but that doesn't necessarily make the second one true.  I could put these statements on a piece of paper and call it totally true.  Obviously the first statement is true, so then the second must be true because the first it.  That is the kind of logic that tries to prove the Bible through history.  The really unfortunate thing, though, is that the Bible isn't even always historically accurate.

[TwinkleFingers]

If I'm not mistaken, I just read "why don't people who live in the same habitats as gorillas turn back into gorilla?"

or vice versa i said.  gorillas turning into humans

[liszmaninopin]

First of all, people are related to gorillas, but they didn't evolve directly from them, not that I've ever read anyway.  Living things only evolve in the direction in which there is selective pressure.  Animals don't evolve features for nothing, and people wouldn't evolve into gorillas because there is no pressure for them to do so.  It takes millions of years, and no species just "changes" from one to another, it evolves into completely new species.  Changes implies some magical transformation or another.

[TwinkleFingers]

then explain the nonexistance of intermediate species.

[liszmaninopin]

Every species is an intermediate species.  They all evolved from something, and they will all evolve into something else later, or go extinct.

[liszmaninopin]

Every species is an intermediate species.  They all evolved from something, and they will all evolve into something else later, or go extinct.

[TwinkleFingers]

well then apes should be extinct cause humans are superior

[liszmaninopin]

Where do you get this?  First of all, if you define superior as reproductive success and population, then indeed humans are superior.  It is not theorized that we evolved from any living apes, but rather that we evolved from a now extinct ancestor.  This ancestor was related to modern apes, and probably our lineage and that of the great apes split sometime in the far past.  Humans and apes are related, as technically speaking, humans are apes.  They are related, but humans are not physically descended from any primate species alive today.

[TwinkleFingers]

so what your saying is that todays primate is evolved from one of our primate ancestors too?

[liszmaninopin]

It depends on how far back in time you want to go, but if I understand you correctly, I suppose yes.  At some point in the past there was most likely one species that diverged into our respecive lineages.  Keep in mind, however, that I have done much more reading about fossil cats than about human fossils, and am probably not the best person to ask for details about human evolution.

Do you agree with my last post that just because the Bible may make some accurate historical comments, that does not automatically make it accurate about the supernatural?

[TwinkleFingers]

agreed...but does it make it innaccurate?
why isnt there more intelligent life out there then?  are you telling me out of the "billions" of years that no other planet "formed" living things. with another root of the question being who formed the planets themselves?

[liszmaninopin]

No, it doesn't necessarily make it inaccurate, but you can see how there really is no proof for anything that the Bible says about the supernatural.

First of all, we don't know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere or not.  Why does it even have to be intelligent?  Don't bacteria count as life?  No planet we know of other than earth has life (although there is suspicion that Mars and some of Jupiter's moons might have unicellular life in the icecaps), but we only know a couple planets well enough to guess about life; there are billions of planets out there, and in reality I suspect that there is an extremely good chance of life on some other ones.  You ask who formed the planets, but I would suggest that what formed the planets is a much more accurate question.  I am grossly oversimplifying this, but the planets were formed by gravity.  If you would honestly like to learn about scientific theories of origins, there are many books available, and a quick search of the internet might give you some general information.

[TwinkleFingers]

im sure none of them could explain our beginnings. If there was one then this debate would be over. why even give an age to earth? why do we say it is billions of years old? saying that is saying that is was created at one point.  everything "physical" was created at one point in this spectrum we call time, which by the way was created. the laws that govern time itself had to be created.

You obviously don't (or can't) understand evolutionary theory.

insert "could care less about"

If it were divine truth then it should be able to prove itself beyond a doubt, and there should exist no other religions on earth.

read my signature at the end of each post
there shouldnt be religion at all then. why would man want to make something up?  does it benefit us to make stuff up?  take the evolutionary theory for instance no benefit.

[chopiabin]

Do I think man made up religion? YES. Not consciously of course. Like I have said many times before, HUMAN BEINGS ARE SCARED OF DEATH just like every other animal. Human beings wnated to find some way to extend their lives so they came up with religion. Originally religion involved difficult things, like sacrificing children etc. Christianity caught on because it best fit the morality of the age in which it originated (if you've noticed, our morality is getting further and further away from that of the bible, hence the number of non-believers). Christianity is also the "easy" religion. It does not involve sacrificing anything to god to gain the reward of heaven. All you have to do is believe that there is a god and that some guy "died for one's sins." Instead of sacrificing to god, god sacrifices to you. Christianity is the ultimate expression of human vanity.

[chopiabin]

Ed, I knew you would be back here at some point, so I had to post this here. CONGRATULATIONS on getting into the Royal College of Music!! I just looked at the post where you were talking about it, and dude, that's incredible. I totally envy you! Wow, that is so awesome. If you don't mind my asking, what pieces did you play? Were you totally nervous?

Chop

P.S. I hope no one minds my posting this here (it's slightly off topic  )

[eddie92099]

For Chopiabin:
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=misc;action=display;num=1071556371;start=0,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

You need to recognize that this debate between ordinary people resembles little of what is being debated in the scientific community at this time.  If you mean human beginnings, the scientific consensus is that we evolved; and except for "scienists" with religious beliefs to defend, I can't think of a single reputable scientist in related fields who doubts our evolution.  There might be some debate over exactly how we evolved, but that we evolved is considered biological fact.

The earth formed billions of years ago by means of gravity.  Time as we know is theorized by some to have begun at the big bang. (if someone has more specific knowledge than me, please let me know as I don't want to say something incorrect)  As the fabric of spacetime has expanded, so has the universe.  But this is far from evolution, which is the change in the gene pool of one species from one generation to the next.

You could care less about evolutionary theory?  Why are you debating it then?  If you don't care about it, and have no knowledge of it, how can you reasonably expect to attack it in debate?

I know many Christians who suppose that all other religions were the product of mens' imaginations, and since all religions cannot be correct, it is obvious that somebody made most of them up.  Why should any religion be believed over any other, when there really is no evidence to support it?

Evolutionary theory was not just "made up."  It was formed by observation of the evidence and the formulation of a theory to accommodate all the known evidence at the time, and since its formation, all the evidence has pointed to evolution, and the theory constantly being refined in details, or sometimes new theories being created, to accommodate the evidence.  That is the way of science.  Knowledge of evolution does carry huge benefits.  It is the foundation of most modern biology (think of all the medical benefits from that alone), and it explains in a very fine way much of what we see in the world around us.

[eddie92099]

I would like to make another point at this stage. The constant attack by theists on the scientific viewpoint of the universe being approximately 15 billion years old is a rather dreadful argument (theists argue that the universe could not have created itself, rather something must have created it, therefore god must have created it). While this may seem logical to them, it is indeed highly inconsequential to the actual debate, for the same problem exists in the creationist theory (who created the creator? Wired has answered this by saying god has always existed - a hugely illogical notion). I am not going to sit here and say I understand how the universe began because nobody knows this information yet. However, I will say that whilst theists give no logical explanation for the creation of the creator, their argument regarding this point falls into the realms of insignificance,
Ed

[cziffra]

This is so much funnier if you're not involved.  Wired has run away and left twinkle fingers to defend himself against a mounting number of people are far more intelligent than him, producing spectacular results:

then why dont people who live in same enviroment as goriallas turn into gorillas or vice versa

What can a person say to respond to that?  Honestly?

[eddie92099]

This is so much funnier if you're not involved.  Wired has run away and left twinkle fingers to defend himself against a mounting number of people are far more intelligent than him, producing spectacular results:

,
Ed

[Wired]

I have noticed that many people like using history to "prove" the Bible.  I have to suggest that this is a logical fallacy.  I will make two statements.

I wasn't offering a proof, I was offering evidence.

[Wired]

We are constantly evolving

Into...?

[Wired]

Do I think man made up religion? YES.

Do I think man made up Evolution? YES!

Christianity caught on because it best fit the morality of the age in which it originated (if you've noticed, our morality is getting further and further away from that of the bible, hence the number of non-believers).

Actually, christianity originally started developing partly because of 0. However, even if christianity as a religion didn't "catch on" immediately, that doesn't discredit the Bible in any way. The Bible was available, it wasn't written when someone said, "Oh, lets form a religion."

Christianity is also the "easy" religion. It does not involve sacrificing anything to god to gain the reward of heaven. All you have to do is believe that there is a god and that some guy "died for one's sins." Instead of sacrificing to god, god sacrifices to you. Christianity is the ultimate expression of human vanity.

Yes, it is much easier nowadays than it was back in the old testament days. For that I am thankful. So, what is your point again?

The popularity of Christianity isn't on how easy it is. If I were to make a religion that said, "Hey, if you say the name Jon each day before you go to bed, I'll promise you eternal life," no one would do it. Why? Well, popularity isn't based solely on how easy something is.

[Wired]

I would like to make another point at this stage. The constant attack by theists on the scientific viewpoint of the universe being approximately 15 billion years old is a rather dreadful argument (theists argue that the universe could not have created itself, rather something must have created it, therefore god must have created it). While this may seem logical to them, it is indeed highly inconsequential to the actual debate, for the same problem exists in the creationist theory (who created the creator? Wired has answered this by saying god has always existed - a hugely illogical notion).

No, I simply claimed that something outside of our physical realm created it. I claim that the God of the bible always existed, but my proof was only to prove that something had to create us. Whatever it was and however it has been there cannot be proven, but something outside of the universe must have created us.

I am not going to sit here and say I understand how the universe began because nobody knows this information yet. However, I will say that whilst theists give no logical explanation for the creation of the creator, their argument regarding this point falls into the realms of insignificance,

No, it does not. It proves that science itself cannot explain how we got here.

[Wired]

Wired has run away

It's called work. I had a contracting job in Dallas for the weekend, and am pulling extra hours trying to get a project done before Christmas so that I can leave on time to get back to Kansas.

[eddie92099]

Into...?

Time will tell. Surely that is obvious.

I claim that the God of the bible always existed

If you don't see that as highly illogical then you have a serious problem.

It proves that science itself cannot explain how we got here.

Wrong. Discovered science cannot explain how we got here, but I am convinced that it is only a matter of time until we have a complete theory. Just because we have not yet discovered something does not mean it does not exist,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

Originally religion involved difficult things, like sacrificing children etc.

i dont remember sacrificing children in the bible. not 100% sure.  I know God commanded abraham to kill his son but just before he did God stopped abraham(test of faith and obedience)And even christians sacrificed goats and such things as this. so why are you saying we didnt do this?  We dont have to now because Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice.

Just because we have not yet discovered something does not mean it does not exist

exactly ed. just keep an open mind.

HUMAN BEINGS ARE SCARED OF DEATH just like every other animal.

I dont think ed is.  Besides its not death you should be scared of, but where you spend eternity. why would someone make up this religion?  Do they think they are going to get life after death by making up some practice? defy the physical laws of our existence?  that is nonsense.  it was divinely inspired man.  If I made up my religion I wouldnt feel any better about what is happening after death or if there was anything after death. You see what I am saying here?

but I am convinced that it is only a matter of time until we have a complete theory.

a complete theory is still just that...theory.

[eddie92099]

exactly ed. just keep an open mind.

I have an open mind - you're the one who "couldn't care less" about evolutionary theory while knowing nothing about it.

why would someone make up this religion?  Do they think they are going to get life after death by making up some practice? defy the physical laws of our existence?  that is nonsense.  it was divinely inspired man.  If I made up my religion I wouldnt feel any better about what is happening after death or if there was anything after death. You see what I am saying here?  

Imagine you are in control of a great number of people. Now imagine they are all fairly depressed and you want to make them happier. Here's an idea - you can tell them that after they die, if they work hard they will go to a wonderful place called heaven. They believe you and work hard for the rest of their lives. Even though you yourself know that heaven does not exist, pretending it does has benefited your society hugely. I am not saying this is exactly how christianity started, but it is an example of how one might make up a religion without it being divinely inspired.

a complete theory is still just that...theory.

Do us all a favour and look up the word theory in a dictionary,
Ed

[chopiabin]

Hey, everybody. Right now I'm not going to respond to wired's ridiculous "points". He obviously either can not understand what I am saying, or he is simply choosing to overlook certain words in my posts - namely the word UNCONSCIOUSLY. I'm way to tired to respond the way I want to, and right now I'm supposed to be studying for a AP Calc exam which will make me want to die .
However, I wanted to leave the christians with a little something to think about.


Have any of you actually stopped to think about that in which you believe? I'm not talking about proof or evidence or anything like that. I'm simply talking about some of the tenets of your beliefs. One of my favorite Christian stories is that of Job. Job was a very good and godly man who was also very wealthy and blessed with a large family. Job thanked god everyday for all that the lord had given him, and he was very content. One day, the devil told god "If Job were not so blessed, then he would not worship you," to which god responded "Oh, yeah (or something like that)?" God then proceeded to destroy Job's farm, all his material possessions, his entire family, and his friends. Job continued to worship god. Then god gave Job a terrible illness, and Job continued to worship god. Finally, god said "See, Job worshipped me regardless of how blessed he was." Then god gave Job a "new family" new possessions, and a new farm.

My point is that your god destroyed one of his believers' life to win a bet with the devil. In my book that is incredibly childish, cruel, and petty.

Remember that next time you pray to god.

Chopchopchop  

[schnabels_grandson]

As much as I hate online religious debate, I will break my silence in order to correct a common misconception.

Chopiabin: You are obviously grossly misinformed about the story of Job.  Instead of giving my opinion on the story, I will quote the bible itself and explain verse by verse the occurences documented in the first chapter verses 6-12 of the book of Job.  Verses 1-5 tell about Job's possesions and his steadfast dedication to his god.  I will now turn it over to the bible.

Verse 6:
Now there was a day when the sons of god came to present themselves before the LORD and satan came also among them.
EXPLANATION verse 6: "The sons of god" are God's faithful angels, probably taking their daily station before the throne of God.  One day "Satan came also among them", meaning he also came before god's throne.  

Verse 7:
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth , and from walking up and down in it.
EXPLANATION verse7:  God asks Satan: Where did you come from?  Satan says: From hanging around on the earth.  

Verse 8:
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
EXPLANATION verse 8:  God is kind of showing off his servant Job saying, have you seen my servant?  He is good and blameless, he fears God and turns aside from evil.

Verse 9: (I will do 9 and 10 together)
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Verse 10:
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?  Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
EXPLANATION verses 9 and 10:
Satan says in a taunting voice: Does Job fear god for nothing?  He implies that Job only continues to serve God because he is gaining material wealth.  Sidenote- Job does enjoy God's protection and blessings.

Verse 11:
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
EXPLANATION:  Satan is telling God to take away all the things he has given Job.  Satan thinks that if he (God) does so, Job will curse God to his face.  

Verse 12:  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.  So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
EXPLANATION verse 12:  God is granting Satan permission to do whatever he wants to Job with one restricion: He cannot kill him.  

Now, I know what you are thinking, Exactly God LET Satan do it!  Well, you are right!  But consider the reasons:

Back in the garden of Eden, Satan raised a very important issue - that of universal sovreignty, or who has the right to determine what's right or wrong for humans and the spirit creatures.  Satan said that humans could take care of themselves and God was not the highest authority.  He implied to Adam and Eve that god had lied to them about eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, saying "You most certainly will NOT die." (Sidenote- I am assuming all of you know the story and have read it yourselves.  I am omiting a lot of the story for the sake of time).  

        Now, why didn't God just destroy Satan right then and there and forgive Adam and Eve?  How would that have looked to the angels?  They would probably have thought, Wow, God can't handle it when someone challenges his authority, maybe he really doesn't have the right to rule.  Obviously, this would cause more problems later, as the issue of universal sovreignty wouldn't have really been solved.  So, God is allowing man time to try things out and see if man ruling man can work.
         
               Back to the story, As it happened, Satan came to God's throne when all the faithful angels were before him.  The whole dialogue between God and Satan was witnessed by all of the faithful angels.  Satan was here raising another issue, The integrity of God's servants.  He was saying that no man really wants to serve God and that no man really will in the face of suffering.  Again, it would have looked very suspicious if God said, no, I'm not gonna mess with Job and neither are you, he's a good man and that's that.  God decided to allow Satan to test Job to prove that even a man who is not gaining materially by serving God will serve him out of love and reverence for his authority.  Notice that god refused to hurt Job himself, and also notice that after Job had proved to be faithful(thus proving Satan a liar in the issue of integrity) God completely restored his material wealth and then some.  

     Attributing any suffering or hardship to God is a very misguided idea.  as 1st John 5:19 puts it, "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."(Satan)
True, God is allowing this, but soon he will put an end to Satan's control of the world.-Rev. 20:2,3.    

[bernhard]

Wow!

Do you mean to say that this actually took place? Like a board meeting with God , Angels and the Devil?

But wait a minute? How did the Devil manage to get into the meeting? I thought he was persona non grata, the enemy, the evil one.

And wasn't this meeting sort of hmmm secret?

I mean, who knows what Bill Gates really talks about in his corporate meetings. Who knows what Bush and Blair really said to each other.

So who was taking the minutes of the meeting?

And how the heck was such sensitive information leaked to the media?

You know, your explanations sound a lot like spin to me...

Bless you all,
Bernhard.

[schnabels_grandson]

Do you mean to say that this actually took place? Like a board meeting with God , Angels and the Devil?

I'm just telling you what the actual bible account says.

But wait a minute? How did the Devil manage to get into the meeting? I thought he was persona non grata, the enemy, the evil one.

There is nothing in the bible proir to the book of Job  that indicates that Satan was not allowed in heaven.

And wasn't this meeting sort of hmmm secret?

It probably was.  I like to think it was "declassified" and related to moses.

And how the heck was such sensitive information leaked to the media?

As 2 timothy 3:16,17 says "All scripture is inspired of God."  So, the answer is that God "leaked" this information to Moses.

I try to keep my opinions and explanations as spin-free as possible.  

[chopiabin]

Every time I've heard the story, It was god that "tested" Job. But that really doesn't matter the truth is, god still felt like he needed op prove something to the devil. You also forget that god did not forbid the devil to destroy Job's family. Is this the god you worship? One that allows the devil to hurt the faithful in  order to win a bet?

Also, a side note. Christians believe that the meaning of life is to worship god, right? That seems a little self-righteous of god to create a world solely for the purpose of glorifying him. If he is a god, then why does he need glory? I think it's funny. By christian logic, all the pain on earth is justified by saying that the purpose of life is to glorify god. Next time you feel depressed, just remember that god's glory is more important than the pain that every human feels.

[chopiabin]

Anyways, getting back to the proof non-proof debate. Does anyone actually believe that different languages originated from the story of the tower of babel?

[liszmaninopin]

You brought up an excellent point there, Chopiabin.  Christians speak of the loving god who came to earth, suffered, etc.  But in fact, this god is amongst the most vain personalities I can think of.  He created a universe heavily populated with little images of himself, all exercising "dominion" over creatures not lucky enough to look like him.  Then, he demands worship from these little images of himself, who are all supposed to conform to him as closely as possible, grovelling and supplicating themselves towards him.  Everything his little images do is meant to glorify him, rather like slaves work tirelessly for a master who takes all the rewards of their labour.  In reality, humans are to be practical robots, exactly like their creator, all worshipping him.  This god needs constant attention and praise or he gets mad and kills those who don't worship him.  To tell you the truth, if the god of the Bible judged me, I wouldn't give much credit to his opinion, as he is just like a spoiled child without any responsibility to authority.

[schnabels_grandson]

But that really doesn't matter the truth is, god still felt like he needed op prove something to the devil.

       As I said, Satan raised an issue.  God doesn't have to prove anything to anybody.  He wasn't trying to prove anything to Satan.  He allowed the test because he wants to give every intelligent creature the chance to see evidence that Satan is a liar and is trying to mislead them.
 
     

You also forget that god did not forbid the devil to destroy Job's family. Is this the god you worship? One that allows the devil to hurt the faithful in  order to win a bet?

        I didn't forget that.  Yes he is the god I worship.  Like I said it wasn't to win a bet, but to provide evidence that Satan is wrong and is trying to subvert God's faithul ones.

Also, a side note. Christians believe that the meaning of life is to worship god, right? That seems a little self-righteous of god to create a world solely for the purpose of glorifying him. If he is a god, then why does he need glory? I think it's funny. By christian logic, all the pain on earth is justified by saying that the purpose of life is to glorify god. Next time you feel depressed, just remember that god's glory is more important than the pain that every human feels.

 
I know some wierdo christians think that, but it is incorrect and not bible based.  He didn't create the world and humans so we would glorify him. We should want to do so out of gratitude for his benevolent creation of us.  I think that you and most people have the impression that the condition of this world is what God intented for us.  Remember that God originally gave humans a paradise and perfection.  This is what God truly desires for us. However, since Satan was rebelious and questioned God's authority,  A miriad of problems for humans have arisen.  They will all be corrected at the conclusion of this system of things.  Satan will be bound for a time, so he will not be able to mislead the peoples of the earth anymore.  After that time he will be let loose for a little while-Revalation 20:3.   When he is freed from the abyss, he will go and mislead as many people as he can and attempt to have a final battle with God.  As they surround God's faithul people, A fire from heaven will devour the people who have been misled again despite many warnings about the machinations of the Devil.  Satan will the hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur as punishment for his crimes against humans and God.  After that the dead, including Job and all of his family, will be resurected and judged according to their deeds-Revalation 20:7-13.  Revalation 21:1 tells about a new heaven and new earth which will replace the current ones.  Revalation 21:3,4 says:
3:With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say:"Look! the tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples.  And God himself will be with them.
4:And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.  The former things have passed away.

That sounds like a pretty kind and loving promise from a God you suppose to be so cruel.  I really think you fail to grasp why God allows suffering.  It's not because he wants to prove a point, but because he wants Men to be able to see that they cannot govern themselves without his guidance, and that Satan cannot guide them either.  I think it's blatantly obvious that man can't rule man and Satan can't rule man either, But God still allows time for people everywhere to come to the same conclusion.  Just so you know, You have been misled by Satan.  Do you think you are original in criticizing the righteous actions of God?  You are definitely not the first to do so.  Remember, you are demonstrating extreme ignorance by assuming that you know something that God doesn't.  

***This ends my contribution to this particular thread, unless someone says something else that angers me.***