Religious Debate Room Part Duex

[eddie92099]

Just so you know, You have been misled by Satan

Shut up,
Ed

[chopiabin]

If god allows pain and suffering so that humans will realize that they can't run their own lives, the why do so many christians suffer? You also didn't answer one of my main points - god let the devil kill Job's family. Do they not matter? Does god not value their lives at all? If god is so powerful and he really despises evil, then why doesn't he destroy it? Humans are screwed because the devil challenged god? That seems a bit unfair. I suppose you would say that all believers in other religions are going to hell too.

I suppose you have never thought about why religion seems to fulfill so many human desires. Could it be that humans, just like animals, have an instinct to survive and an innate fear of death? I believe that humans started religions originally because they feared death and saw nature as a powerful force. Humans at the time were unable to comprehen that weather and earthquakes are caused by natural processes on earth. As religion continued to progress, it came to be more and more convenient to humans and began to fit the morality of the time period. This would explain why there are no (to my knowledge) religions in the modernized world that practice human sacrifice. Parents teach their children to believe in their religion from an early age ( by the way, do you think you would be christian if you were raised in Islam?) and the traditions become sanctified. No one really questions why so many different religions exist (it seems to me that if christianity were divine truth, then the stories would have been revealed to every nation on earth instead of a tiny middle eastern one). Did you know that the original Jewish word for god was "we"? Doesn't it seem that maybe "god" evolved from "gods". That maybe one god took on the properties of many and became omnipotent? It is funny. Humans are very self-concerned. Look how we've stopped sacrificing to god and now he sacrifices to us. He is the one whom we have prostrated before us.

Chop

P.S. Your remarks about satan don't really mean much to me except for the fact that they show your ignorance. I don't believe in satan, and I think he exists so that christians can scare others into believing in their religion. I know you'll say something like "just because you don't believe in him, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist," but you believe in god, and he doesn't exist.

[schnabels_grandson]

If god allows pain and suffering so that humans will realize that they can't run their own lives, the why do so many christians suffer?

Nobody is exempt from the pressures Satan puts on this world, including Christians.  It is not that humans can't run their own lives, but that they cannot run each others, or make decisions contrary to God's commands without grave consequences.  

You also didn't answer one of my main points - god let the devil kill Job's family. Do they not matter? Does god not value their lives at all?

Maybe I should be more specific.  God will resurect all humans that have died over the past 6000+ years.  Included in this group will be Job and all of his family.  Think of Job's family as a small temporary sacrifice for the greater good of mankind.  Temporary because Job's whole family will be resurected to a new world with perfection.  The greater good being evidence that Satan is a liar, will stop at nothing to undermine God's authority, and that he wants intellegent creation to turn away from God.

If god is so powerful and he really despises evil, then why doesn't he destroy it? Humans are screwed because the devil challenged god? That seems a bit unfair. I suppose you would say that all believers in other religions are going to hell too.

I told you why he didn't just destroy it.  Once again, Satan raised an issue in the garden of Eden.  God could have destroyed Satan and evil right there, but then the angels would have wondered why God didn't settle the issue.  Again, dissent probably would have come up and caused further problems.  God is allowing time for Satan to prove that humans can govern themselves without God's guidance.   When Satan fails to do so, the issue will be settled once and for all.  This means that God's sovreignty can never be called into question again.  Humans are screwed temporarily because Satan challenged God.  Once it has been proven beyond a doubt that Satan's accusations were groundless,  Mankind will be restored to their former perfect condition.  There will be no influence of evil or Satan's schemes.   I would say that no person is going to hell.  Hell is a creation of the catolic church.  There is no biblical account to indicate the existence of hell.  The way I come to this conlusion is by reading Ecclesiastes 9:5-The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.  Psalm 146:4- His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.  These scriptures indicate that when humans die, They become unconscious.  I don't see the point of this idea of "hell" if people aren't going to feel any pain when they go there.

Your remarks about satan don't really mean much to me except for the fact that they show your ignorance. I don't believe in satan, and I think he exists so that christians can scare others into believing in their religion. I know you'll say something like "just because you don't believe in him, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist," but you believe in god, and he doesn't exist.

Actually, I could say the same thing to you about your failure to acknowledge the existence of Satan.  I will not say however, that "just because you don't believe in him, that doesn't mean he doesn't exist."  That argument would lack substance just as yours often do, example:  "but you believe in god, and he doesn't exist."

[eddie92099]

Maybe I should be more specific.  God will resurect all humans that have died over the past 6000+ years.  Included in this group will be Job and all of his family.  Think of Job's family as a small temporary sacrifice for the greater good of mankind.  Temporary because Job's whole family will be resurected to a new world with perfection.  The greater good being evidence that Satan is a liar, will stop at nothing to undermine God's authority, and that he wants intellegent creation to turn away from God.

You are insane. I'm not joking,
Ed

[chopiabin]

I still totally disagree with you about "truth," but I guess I have a little more respect for you since you don't believe in hell. My little quip about god's nonexistence was in anticipation of what I thought you were going to say.

To me it still does not make sense. I know a super-christian family who is incredibly generous, kind, and faithful to Jesus. They used to have three daughters, two of whom were twins. One night, they were coming home from spring break, and they were on a small train thing. The two daughters kissed their mother goodnight and went to sit with their friens a few rows up. Then the train hit a truck that was on the tracks, and both daughters were burned to death. Why would a benevolent, all-powerful god allow something like that to happen? Did those two children deserve to die? They were not being "tempted" or anything, so obviously god killed them (if god controls all of nature then he is responsible for everything that happens).

You did not respond to my thoughts on the origin of religion. In addition to what I said there, I would like to add why I think the older religions (the ones with  human sacrifice) disappeared. I believe that no one wants to believe in something that is hard. No one wants to believe that you must kill your children to appease a god. Christianity does not require anyone to sacrifice anything material to god. All one has to do is believe in order to be "saved". I think compared to scarifice, that is relatively easy. That is why christianity has stayed around so long. It is some thing that people want to believe in; it's comforting. All one has to do is have faith, and all one's "sins" are erased, and there is no problem getting the reward of heaven. Essentially it removes all responsiblity from humans.
These are the real issues I would like you to address. Not whether or not god's actions are just, but whether or not god exists at all.

Chop

[schnabels_grandson]

You are insane. I'm not joking,
Ed

Oh, really? And do you suppose you are compos mentis?
I'm really sorry you feel that way though.  I think you are confusing my strong convictions about what the bible says with insanity.  In his 1st. letter to the Corinthians chapter 2:12-15 The apostle Paul says:
12: Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been given us by God.
13: These things we also speak,  not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we combine spiritual matters with spiritual words.
14:But a physical man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
15: However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man.

I think people in general have difficulty understanding or accepting what the bible says because, as Paul so aptly stated in verse 14,  "a physical man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually."  Once again, these "physical men" are victims of Satan's misguidance, having their eyes blinded by his pernicious slander against God.  I dare say you fall into this category.  

         But there is hope for you yet.  As you still have life and the ability to decide who's side you are really on, now is the time to think about what the bible really says, not all the denominational jargon.  You may be opposed to bible teachings just because you have never heard the truth of what they say and what they mean.  I think Christianity has been given a very bad name by means of Satans influence on the teachings of the Catholic church, protestants and the rest of the "denominations."
       
          2 peter 3:9 says: "God is not slow respecting his promise (that is the promise of a resurection of the dead and restoration of paradisaic conditions to the earth.)  as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be detroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."  
We, as humans, all have an extrodinary chance to become free from Satan's influence and enjoy the perfect conditions God has promised.  But you must act soon because time is running out for you to decide who you want to follow, God or Satan.  Don't think that Satan isn't behind all this Darwinism and Evolutionism.  They are just some of his MANY sneaky systems designed to blind mankind to God's existence and what he requires from them, thus robbing them of the gift of life.  I urge you all to ponder these things deeply.  

[Noah]

I urge you all to ponder these things deeply.

And I urge you to go and see a psychiatrist.

[schnabels_grandson]

Chopiabin:  I would like to say that I really appreciate your civility and willingness to disagree without animosity, it makes debate more enjoyable, and is much better than the rash, immature comments also seen in this thread.

I still totally disagree with you about "truth," but I guess I have a little more respect for you since you don't believe in hell. My little quip about god's nonexistence was in anticipation of what I thought you were going to say.  

Good, I was really hoping you weren't seriously thinking that that was a viable argument.

To me it still does not make sense. I know a super-christian family who is incredibly generous, kind, and faithful to Jesus. They used to have three daughters, two of whom were twins. One night, they were coming home from spring break, and they were on a small train thing. The two daughters kissed their mother goodnight and went to sit with their friens a few rows up. Then the train hit a truck that was on the tracks, and both daughters were burned to death. Why would a benevolent, all-powerful god allow something like that to happen? Did those two children deserve to die? They were not being "tempted" or anything, so obviously god killed them (if god controls all of nature then he is responsible for everything that happens).

This is certainly an unfortunate case of wrong place wrong time, but that is all.  Ecclesiastes 9:11,12 says-
11:"I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforseen occurrence befall them all.
12:For man also does not know his time.  Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly.

These scriptures say that even if things are looking good in our favor, we can never expect stability because "time and unforseen occurence befall them(us) all.  I can think of no biblical account to support the idea that God controls nature on a continual basis .  Of course they didn't deserve to die, but even though they are dead, the bible gives their family hope they will be resurrected-1st. Corinthians chapter 15.  
I will say one last time,  God doesn't hurt anybody in any way.  James 1:13 says:When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God."  For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.  

You did not respond to my thoughts on the origin of religion. In addition to what I said there, I would like to add why I think the older religions (the ones with  human sacrifice) disappeared. I believe that no one wants to believe in something that is hard. No one wants to believe that you must kill your children to appease a god. Christianity does not require anyone to sacrifice anything material to god. All one has to do is believe in order to be "saved". I think compared to scarifice, that is relatively easy. That is why christianity has stayed around so long. It is some thing that people want to believe in; it's comforting. All one has to do is have faith, and all one's "sins" are erased, and there is no problem getting the reward of heaven. Essentially it removes all responsiblity from humans.
These are the real issues I would like you to address. Not whether or not god's actions are just, but whether or not god exists at all.  

About religion:  According to the bible, Adam and Eve were aware of their creators existence and likely had some knowledge of natural forces.  They and their descendents until after the flood of Noah's day knew of the god that created them, and invented no other.  during that time though, there was no established religion or organized worship of God.  Needless to say, God would never request or expect human sacrifice from his servants, with the one exception of his test of Abraham.  As for the rest, I really don't know what to say, except I don't think man invented God or religion but he has definitely perverted both.  
 
As for Christianity:  Some woud have you believe that all you have to do is accept Christ or whatever to attain heaven.  This is not biblical.  I will explain that at a later time if you wish.

THE REAL QUESTION: Does God exist or not?

Well, I will admit that this question plagued me for a long time.  There is really no way to prove or disprove the existence of God.  But there are signs that I think indicate a creator.  

              First, look at nature around you.  I think that the likelihood that all of this came from nothing is very small.  Think of intricate things such as a fingerprint or an insect.  Can you honestly tell me that you can't believe they were created, or that they appeared out of something completely random?
         Second, look at things that humans have that animal don't.  Humans have the ability to ENJOY a wide variety of foods, smells and other sensory plesures, and intelligent conversation.   the enjoyment of none of these things is nessecary to survival.  I think it is more likely that we were created by a God who wants us to enjoy life.

One thing I often ask people who question the existence of God is this:  Do YOU exist?  Chopiabin, do YOU exist?  Have you ever asked yourself this question?  The obvious answer is that you do exist, but how do you really know?  I wanted to say more, lots more, but it is 2:15 A.M. and I fear i'm becoming incoherrent.  Maybe later....  

[schnabels_grandson]

And I urge you to go and see a psychiatrist.

Wow!  The originality of your wit!  Blows me away every time!  My mother is a psycologist.  I don't have any mental illness as of yet.  I find your attempt at getting a giggle or two from serious readers of this discussion ironically laughable.

[liszmaninopin]

We need to have more maturity here, and stop deriding each other; I say this to those on both sides of the debate.  When I was debating in the creation/evolution thread I tried not to use personal jibes.  If anyone wants to see my arguments in support of evolution, look there; but I have a new mini-debate that I would like to start here.

What makes a "true" Christian?  I know many who claim that the only true Christians are those who are saved by faith, attend a Baptist church, vote Republican, and think everybody not like them is going to Hell.  Most are far less extreme.  I am intrigued about your comment that you don't believe in Hell, yet you obviously strike me as a Christian.  Could you explain in more detail those beliefs than in your previous thread

[eddie92099]

The two daughters kissed their mother goodnight and went to sit with their friens a few rows up. Then the train hit a truck that was on the tracks, and both daughters were burned to death. Why would a benevolent, all-powerful god allow something like that to happen?

Maybe god thought the daughters kissing their mother was a sign of homosexuality.

We, as humans, all have an extrodinary chance to become free from Satan's influence and enjoy the perfect conditions God has promised.  But you must act soon because time is running out for you to decide who you want to follow, God or Satan.  Don't think that Satan isn't behind all this Darwinism and Evolutionism.  They are just some of his MANY sneaky systems designed to blind mankind to God's existence and what he requires from them, thus robbing them of the gift of life.  I urge you all to ponder these things deeply.  

You're a good laugh, I'll give you that.

              First, look at nature around you.  I think that the likelihood that all of this came from nothing is very small.  Think of intricate things such as a fingerprint or an insect.  Can you honestly tell me that you can't believe they were created, or that they appeared out of something completely random?

Yes. Great point though (?!   ).

         Second, look at things that humans have that animal don't.  

Humans are animals.

Humans have the ability to ENJOY a wide variety of foods, smells and other sensory plesures

So do animals...

and intelligent conversation.

I thought that before I spoke to you.

One thing I often ask people who question the existence of God is this:  Do YOU exist?  Chopiabin, do YOU exist?  Have you ever asked yourself this question?  The obvious answer is that you do exist, but how do you really know?  I wanted to say more, lots more, but it is 2:15 A.M. and I fear i'm becoming incoherrent.  Maybe later....  

You have always been incoherent in your arguments, so why worry about being incoherent in your grammar? (I do exist by the way - another fantastic point though).

Wow!  The originality of your wit!  Blows me away every time!  My mother is a psycologist.  I don't have any mental illness as of yet.  I find your attempt at getting a giggle or two from serious readers of this discussion ironically laughable.

No, he was being serious. As was I when I said I think you are insane. We are not trying to get a laugh, we are making valid points by observing what you write and coming to logical conclusions vis-a-vis your mental state,
Ed

[chopiabin]

Hey 6_Gen, I have a lot of thoughts on the origin of humanity and religion in the evolutionary theory room. I would spend three hundred hours typing them here, but I'm too tired. Look at my other posts about the origin of religion. That last one was an addendum to those. When I said religion had human sacrifices, I was speaking of the religions that preceded christianity.

Chop

Ed, I liked your quip about homosexuality.

[schnabels_grandson]

What makes a "true" Christian?  I know many who claim that the only true Christians are those who are saved by faith, attend a Baptist church, vote Republican, and think everybody not like them is going to Hell.  Most are far less extreme.  I am intrigued about your comment that you don't believe in Hell, yet you obviously strike me as a Christian.  Could you explain in more detail those beliefs than in your previous thread

I guess the definition of a true christian would be someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.
A lot of so-called Christian religions do this to an extremely small degree.  This is not true Christianity. What many groups of these "Christians" have done is invented doctrines that pervert what the bible says, therefore making their religion false.  Common examples are:
Hell, Trinity and Immortality of the Soul.
I always use the bible to explain how I come to a conclusion on a certain matter.

Hell and Immortality of the Soul: I already quoted some scriptures that show that when a man dies, he ceases to be conscious.  If you want to look them up yourself, here they are: Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 and Psalms 146:4.  Also, Many bible translations do use the word hell.  The hebrew word " She'ohl " and the greek word " Hai'des " Both refer to the common grave of mankind, but these words have often been translated as hell.   This can be confusing, as hell doesn't exist as a place of torment for the wicked.

Trinity:  Somehow, in spite of countless bible accounts that clearly state that God and Jesus are seperate persons, some people would rather believe that they are the same.  Here are scriptures that debunk this belief.  Acts 7:55,56- this scripute tells about Stephen's vision of Jesus in heaven at the right hand of God; Matthew 26:39-this is an accout of Jesus praying to his father.  Such a prayer would have been meaningless if he was the same person as his father.  There are countless other scriptures that point to the nonexistence of a trinity.    

A true Christian then, would be someone who followed exactly the teachings of the Christ without mixing in man's thoughts.

No, he was being serious. As was I when I said I think you are insane. We are not trying to get a laugh, we are making valid points by observing what you write and coming to logical conclusions vis-a-vis your mental state,

No offence, but I highly doubt your ability to make or justify a snap judegment such as that.  I don't expect you to understand or want to understand anything I say, because you are a physical man and spiritual things are mere foolishness to you.  This should hardly give you reason to question my sanity.  

I'll put it this way:  It is safer to assume that there is a God, and follow his commandments, than it is to assume that we are on our own and are not accountable to anyone.  

[chopiabin]

When you said it is safer to assume that there is a god, you are (consciously or unconsciously) using Pascal's wager idea. I find many problems with this. One is that you are betting on religion. I don't have a problem with that, but then again, I'm not a christian. The other problem is that this little bet thing assumes that there is meaning to life. Just because someone doesn't believe in god does not mean they are going to go around killing people or having orgies. Also, I thought about this and there seems to be aproblem with what you are saying (although I respect it more than what most christians hgave to say). The problem is that you say there is no hell or heaven, yet we should "resist the temptation of Satan". If there are no consequences, then why should we do it? I don't know of any christians that are actually friends with god, so I don't see on what their loyalty is based.

You still haven't responded to what I said in all those other posts.

Chop

[schnabels_grandson]

When you said it is safer to assume that there is a god, you are (consciously or unconsciously) using Pascal's wager idea. I find many problems with this. One is that you are betting on religion. I don't have a problem with that, but then again, I'm not a christian. The other problem is that this little bet thing assumes that there is meaning to life. Just because someone doesn't believe in god does not mean they are going to go around killing people or having orgies. Also, I thought about this and there seems to be aproblem with what you are saying (although I respect it more than what most christians hgave to say). The problem is that you say there is no hell or heaven, yet we should "resist the temptation of Satan". If there are no consequences, then why should we do it? I don't know of any christians that are actually friends with god, so I don't see on what their loyalty is based.  

You still haven't responded to what I said in all those other posts.

I didn't know about Pascal's theory.  I know that there are people that don't lead a bad life, but sooner or later everyone is going to have to make a choice; acknowledge God or don't.  The consequence of the latter is death without chance of life again.  I never said there was no heaven, but the bible doesn't say that every righteous person is going there.  Revelation 14.3-5 and chapter7. verse 4 indicate that there is a set number of people that will go to heaven- 144,000.

The rest of the people of earth that survive are described as the "great crowd"- Revelation 7:9.

The consequence of being wicked and not changing is simply death, and if you value life, you will avoid the temtation of the Devil.    

I have to go out of town now, I will try to finish later.

[eddie92099]

Ed, I liked your quip about homosexuality.

Quip?
Ed

[chopiabin]

It might be an American word. It means a little blurb, jibe, or remark.  

Chop

[liszmaninopin]

How do we know which god to believe in, then?  There are many choices, all being spread by missionaries and other such door-to-door salesman convinced that they are the only truth, it is really very troubling.

I know this is unrelated, but I have always been curious.  For anyone who's spent alot of time in both the UK and the US, what are some differences in everyday life?

[cziffra]

God will resurect all humans that have died over the past 6000+ years.  Included in this group will be Job and all of his family.  Think of Job's family as a small temporary sacrifice for the greater good of mankind.  Temporary because Job's whole family will be resurected to a new world with perfection.  

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA   HA HA HA HA HA HA HA  

oh dear...that's a very nice idea vladimir...oh look, here comes pozzo and his slave lucky again, lets wait for godot with him.  he'll send us to a land of perfection, and that is why we must keep our appointment with him.

would you like a carrot?

[TwinkleFingers]

How do we know which god to believe in, then?  There are many choices, all being spread by missionaries and other such door-to-door salesman convinced that they are the only truth, it is really very troubling.

I would believe in the God of the Bible that He himself spoke to man to write.  Not some god that man made up.

Revelation 14.3-5 and chapter7. verse 4 indicate that there is a set number of people that will go to heaven- 144,000.  

so you believe that this is all that will go to heaven? Ive never heard that before.  Will look into that though.

[chopiabin]

Just for your future reference, when I say that man made up god, I'm not saying some guy one day said,"Hey dude, we should have religion and gods. Man, that would be cool." What I'm saying is that prehistoric people feared and did not understand the processes of nature and began to try to appease them with sacrifice. Eventually, all gods of this type became one supreme god because people started attributing more and more of the other gods' qualities to it. Read my other posts - there is a lot more about the origin of religion, and if you want to have an intelligent debate, you must attempt to answer all questions asked of you.

Chop

[TwinkleFingers]

questions??? would you please list the questions you are speaking of?  so your saying that the gods of prehistoric people are no longer worshiped? cough indians cough. they still believe in polytheism. or if not in modern times, they did not long ago. Well you are right that man created certain pagan religions.  what does that have to do with God breathed scriptures.
what is your idea, chop, on how we came about?  when you take God out of the equation, you dont get much of an answer. you get probably, this is theorized to of happened. this happened millions, billions, trillions of years ago.  If you look at it from a nuetral standpoint, a person who believes in evolution has much more faith to be able to believe such a theory than that of a christian(on average)

[eddie92099]

It might be an American word. It means a little blurb, jibe, or remark.  

I know what a quip is, I just wasn't making one. I was being deadly serious.

If you look at it from a nuetral standpoint, a person who believes in evolution has much more faith to be able to believe such a theory than that of a christian(on average)

Completely incorrect,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

I was going to stay out of this debate mostly until I read that quote about an evolutionist needing more faith than a creationist.  Please, explain to me how a legitimate theory founded on hundreds of years of evidence from multiple sciences requires more faith than a religion with no evidence other than a self-contradictory and demonstratably incorrect (when it comes to facts about the world) 3000 year old book.

[TwinkleFingers]

evolutionists need more faith because it is theory in which they believe.  Anything that tries to go against God is wrong.  Why turn your head from your creator?  Because you refuse to believe that something is over you and is going to judge you to eternity.  Whether you like it or not everyone will have to face judgment.  Im just doing my part in spreading how to get saved...by believing in Jesus Christ our savior and that he died for our sins in order for us to be forgiven and let us spend eternity with Him in perfection.  That is all.  Whether you believe this or not I cant control. only you can (and ultimatly God)

[eddie92099]

evolutionists need more faith because it is theory in which they believe.  

Then what exactly is the creationist theory? (And please, look up the word theory!).

Whether you believe this or not I cant control. only you can (and ultimatly God)

So let me get this straight - ultimately, god controls whether we each believe in him or not. Therefore, if we don't, it is his fault. Yet, he will judge us and if we don't believe in him we will go to hell,
Ed  

[chopiabin]

Good paradox Ed!

Also, Twinkles, I'm not going to go back and rewrite all of the questions I have asked of you. You never responded to any of them, and, if you actually want me  (or anyone) to actually respect your beliefs and opinions , then you should at least attempt to answer them. By the way, do you believe man created the other modern religions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.? If man can make those up, then why could he not make up christianity? I am NOT saying that men created it consciously, I'm saying that people (just like animals) are afraid of death, and personify nature as a benevolent force that keeps one from dying (one lives forever in an afterlife). I believe that humans have a very powerful imagination, and when told that something exists for their entire lives, it is very hard for them to question it because it is easier to just accept. It seems funny to me that all world religions have in common some sort of life after death or "becoming one with the universe." I think it is also funny that three major religions all share the same god (christianity, Judaism, and Islam). These three religions all originated in the same region of the world, and it seems to me that they easily could have started out as branches of the same religion. They created the same god and then worshiped him in different ways.

It's al;so funny that your all powerful god only revealed himself to a tiny region of the world. It seems that if god loved humanity so much, he would have revealed himself to every culture and nation on earth, and not just a little part of the middle east.

Do you aactually believe that people who have never heard of christ are going to hell? If you do, then I ask you, is that a just god?

Read my other posts before you respond.

Chop

[eddie92099]

Do you aactually believe that people who have never heard of christ are going to hell? If you do, then I ask you, is that a just god?

What a wonderful question!
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

I've always wondered that myself.

Anyway, I am not "turning my back from my creator," despite whatever you may think.  Why on earth would anybody reject a god that they knew existed if they knew that it would mean going to Hell?  They reject your god because they don't believe that he exists.  You make so many assertions about the future as if one really knows, when in fact, no one knows what happens after death.  Certainly, some of us have convinced ourselves that we know our fate, but no one really does.
Why are you bothering to spread the word?  In the Bible it says (and I forget where) that one can know from the glories of the earth or something like that that there is a god.  Why would you need to spread the word to those people who are "without excuse"?  Of course, Jesus says to spread the gospel to the whole world, but that is contradicting his own Bible.

I am not even going to bother responding to your comment about faith in evolution, and going against god.

[TwinkleFingers]

Then what exactly is the creationist theory? (And please, look up the word theory!).  

2 words you just put together for some reason.

So let me get this straight - ultimately, god controls whether we each believe in him or not. Therefore, if we don't, it is his fault. Yet, he will judge us and if we don't believe in him we will go to hell,
Ed  

I think He gives us free will.  After all, Adam made the choice to eat the forbidden fruit.

It seems that if god loved humanity so much, he would have revealed himself to every culture and nation on earth, and not just a little part of the middle east.

ever heard of missionaries? God uses them to spread His word also.

Do you aactually believe that people who have never heard of christ are going to hell? If you do, then I ask you, is that a just god?

tis not my place to answer that. That is only in God's hands.  And yes, He is THE just God.

Why would you need to spread the word to those people who are "without excuse"?  Of course, Jesus says to spread the gospel to the whole world, but that is contradicting his own Bible.

not aware of the verse you speak of about Not spreading the gospel(good news) but Im almost positive your taking it out of context.

I am not even going to bother responding to your comment about faith in evolution, and going against god.

then dont.

[dinosaurtales]

Omigod.  It's been ages since I've checked out this post.  

What a mess.  Oh man.

Good luck ed.

[TwinkleFingers]

thankyou for your support the irony of you saying omigod as well...

[Noah]

Good luck ed.

Hey, what about Chopiabin, Cziffra, Liszmaninopin and myself ? Don't we deserve to be on the atheists' roll of honour ?

[liszmaninopin]

I suppose we did just put creation and theory together; giving them far more credit than they actually deserve.  Perhaps creationist mysticism would be better.

Missionaries can't go everywhere and preach to everybody.  What about the natives who lived in South America in say A.D. 200?  Did they go to Hell just because a missionary never came?  Sounds kind of unfair to me, and I definitely would not want to worship a god that would send somebody to Hell who had no way to prevent it.  By the way, the verse is Romans 1:20 where it states that men are "without excuse."  It suggests that from seeing the creation, one can know of God, which is evident fallacy.  Need I say again, why does one need missionaries if all people should already know the truth?

So whenever we ask a question of God, you can't answer it because it is in God's hands?  That sounds like avoiding the question to me.  Explain  how all the genocides and murders and sending innocent people to Hell are the works of a just, loving, compassionate God.
Or perhaps God is above the law in regard to how he treats his little images of himself.  It is hypocrisy, how he wants us to aspire to his perfection (a supposedly impossible goal), but holds us accountable for anything wrong we do (which we can't help but do according to the Bible), and I don't see how a person could ever kill more people than the god of the Bible did.

Look at the missionary problem this way.  If people never hear the Gospel and go to heaven, then we wouldn't want missionaries because as soon as one hears the gospel, then they are in danger of Hell.  If people who never hear the gospel go to hell, then they should have known better, seeing it in the earth around them.  Either way, missionaries are unnecessary.

[dinosaurtales]

Sorry, naoh and youn other guys.  I just sorta grabbed the *flavor* of the thing, and the folks that got this all started in the first place.

I just get all creeped out that somebody's *belief system* (System in an interesting word to use dontcha think?  Implies order. hm.) can be so strong that it eliminates any semblance of rational thought or cognitive process.  Makes me wonder what those people would be capable of doing under that rationale.
Gives me the creeps.

[liszmaninopin]

I think its a little bit sad, really.  Most people who are blindly following their belief system are fine people in almost all ways, until it gets to something that contradicts their belief system.  No matter how wrong their system is, they still cling to it.

[TwinkleFingers]

Sounds kind of unfair to me, and I definitely would not want to worship a god that would send somebody to Hell who had no way to prevent it.

you sound like you think you can choose not to go to either place. very bad thinking.

It suggests that from seeing the creation, one can know of God, which is evident fallacy.

to not see God in His creation would mean you are blind(not physically but spiritually)

Need I say again, why does one need missionaries if all people should already know the truth?

to further educate the people.

Explain  how all the genocides and murders and sending innocent people to Hell are the works of a just, loving, compassionate God.

He gives us free will to worship Him.  Those who reject Him, he rejects as well.

It is hypocrisy, how he wants us to aspire to his perfection (a supposedly impossible goal),

In heaven we will be reunited with perfect bodies and while we will never be God, we will be perfect. Never sinning, never the desire because Satan will have been crushed.

Or perhaps God is above the law in regard to how he treats his little images of himself.

God is the law.  You have to understand that he is the ultimate being.

Either way, missionaries are unnecessary.

I dont know how you draw this conclusion.  Your saying it is better off not to be taught about God. You think you will go to heaven if you just ignore Him completely? I never answered your question

[liszmaninopin]

What do you mean by either place?  I only mentioned one.

This all-powerful god must not be good at showing himself, becuase out of all those people who never met a missionary, not one saw the "truth."  In fact, looking at the world around me, I don't see a shred of evidence that suggests the existence of the Christian god.  I guess I can only see the truth after I blindly accept it, right?  It's a logical inconsistency.

Educate them about what?

[liszmaninopin]

So he can't reject us peacefully?  He has to kill, torture, and maim millions of people.  Very spiteful being, isn't he?

I don't believe in heaven, so I'm not worried about getting there or not.  I thought I explained my missionary logic pretty thoroughly, but I will try again.
Let us say that if you never hear of God, you go to heaven.  One would not want to preach to these people, because as long as they never hear the word, then they are not in danger of Hell.  As soon as one preaches to them, now they are in danger of rejecting it, and thus going to Hell.
For a counterexample, if someone who doesn't hear the Gospel goes to Hell, they should've seen it anyway, as the world is evidence enough, according to the Bible.

I wouldn't want to follow a leader who broke his own laws, and I think it is very hypocritical of a god to break his own laws.  I don't see how one takes genocide out of context and makes it okay for God to do it.

The Bible has many scientific errors, as well as historical ones, so I see no reason to believe it is spiritually correct, anyway.

[dinosaurtales]

I guess I don't get it.  The *behavior* in God you (Twinklefingers) just described sounds like some insecure people I know. I would think that an all-powerful, all-knowing God, one that I would want to *worship* would be above all that.  I believe Jesus was a person like that.  But I'm not really into worshipping a god that would send people to hell just for not knowing about him, or choosing to not follow his *path*.  Seems too insecure to me.

I'll worship a god when he shows himself to be significantly better than us.

[eddie92099]

He gives us free will to worship Him.  Those who reject Him, he rejects as well.

And yet he teaches forgiveness. Hypocrit.

You think you will go to heaven if you just ignore Him completely?

We ignore him because we don't believe he exists, not because we want to rebel against him,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

You both make very good points.

[dinosaurtales]

Can we start a new post for this topic?     It takes too long to load this one.

[TwinkleFingers]

So he can't reject us peacefully?  He has to kill, torture, and maim millions of people.  Very spiteful being, isn't he?

I think your confusing God with Satan.  And yes, God does ALLOW these things to happen.  Why exaclty?  Probably because of the sin man committed in the garden of eden.  Man rebelled against God hence they were thrown out of the garden and into a world of sin and chaos.

I don't see a shred of evidence that suggests the existence of the Christian god.

then which god do you see?  How about the creation around us?  You have to admit that there is some, in scientific terms, "ultimate energy" God, that created us.There is too much structure and order to our bodies and every other thing on earth not to believe that there is some ultimate, all knowing, spirit-being whatever you want to call it, out there.

Let us say that if you never hear of God, you go to heaven.

that right there is an unknown.

The Bible has many scientific errors, as well as historical ones, so I see no reason to believe it is spiritually correct, anyway.

name some

I wouldn't want to follow a leader who broke his own laws, and I think it is very hypocritical of a god to break his own laws.

which laws did He break?

But I'm not really into worshipping a god that would send people to hell just for not knowing about him, or choosing to not follow his *path*.  Seems too insecure to me.

that is incorrect. He doesnt send people to hell just for knowing about Him. He sends them to hell for disobeying Him and not asking forgiveness and not accepting His son as our ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

We ignore him because we don't believe he exists, not because we want to rebel against him,
Ed

to believe He doesnt exist is to believe we dont exist. For without Him is nothing. You dont have a choice. You are either for Him or against Him(which is ultimately for satan)

I'll worship a god when he shows himself to be significantly better than us.

How better can you get than perfect?  He sent His only son(jesus) who lived a perfect life on earth in the human flesh.  He never sinned.  If you feel you never sin then you are blind.

[liszmaninopin]

I will answer your post in the new religious debate thread.