God poll

[thalbergmad]

I take it you have not visited the pictures thread very often.

[debussy symbolism]

I take it you have not visited the pictures thread very often.

Oh I have. I often see you with your friend "Mental Martin" in there.

[mad_max2024]

People are so friendly in these forums...

[pianistimo]

well...after much quick thought- i cancelled my subscription after this month and also cancelled my paypal account so it would be too much trouble to do it all again.  but, now, after a day of thought- it is with regret.  (especially after debussy symbolism's kind words).  i bet thal is betting that i'll leave.  but, now - i have no choice.  i have to.  what's really rotten is that i don't like practicng the piano anymore.  i have come to prefer pianoforum.  and, you are all right- i have been spending more time on here than practice.  so - now - i shall be forced to practice again. 

but, that will leave prometheus without an answer to his last indefatiguable set of questions.  morality.  from what i hear - if you want to get a science student to be quiet - you ask them to give a speech about faith, morals, and virtue.  so - i politely hand this question back to prometheus.  (whilst bashing and knocking all the piltdown figurines off his desk - and a few skulls fall to the floor - superglued chimp pieces with filed teeth).  now, for thal - i simply refuse to accept the lambo anymore.  it has no meaning.  the only thing i want to see now - is thal laying flat at 5,000 ft on mt blanc - so i can say 'i told you so.'  although today - i did think 'what an amazing feat it would be if he made it to the top.'  although - getting that last 1,000 ft without oxygen might land him some pulmonary edema which i wouldn't wish on him.  but, what do i know?  in any case - if i can't get on piano forum

i now - will all my possessions to debussy symbolism.  you can see that women can be somewhat erratic in love.  although if pianowolfi wants the bike - he can have it.  ok.  the kawaii piano goes to debussy - although i have a suspicion he's got as good or better piano already.     


and, i forgot to say too, that cmg is also quite more dignifiably polite - although infinitly harder to reason with than thal.  calling my friends a 'christian chorus' and all.  ?  well, anwyays - he's hard to resist with his unusal forms of sarcasm - only to be outdone by alistair.  hmm.  what if he IS alistair.  wouldn't that be wierd.  an alistair in britain and the alistair in nyc.  i want to hear him play some of alistair's works.  where IS alistair.  goodbye alistair.  i will forever miss that 8 hour concert...and yet, i really do want to hear the schumann.  it's just a little something i'll play if i ever have the misfortune to meet thal in person.

[etudes]

God will still be here whether we vote him in or out.  personally, i'd rather vote for Him than any other governmental official.  but, in the end, we're the ones on the hot seat.  thankfully, our new honda accord has gotten me used to those. 

too bad....there wasnt ,isnt and wont be god........period

[jalgor]

         
Ra

[mycrabface]

Hey oh my gosh look at this:

You may not post content, or in any manner link to sites or images, containing pornography, sexually explicit, gross violence, politically or religiously offensive material, or are determined by moderators to be detrimental to the community.

Its the forum rules

[prometheus]

Religion is a delusion, a primitive meme.

[ahinton]

and, i forgot to say too, that cmg is also quite more dignifiably polite - although infinitly harder to reason with than thal.  calling my friends a 'christian chorus' and all.  ?  well, anwyays - he's hard to resist with his unusal forms of sarcasm - only to be outdone by alistair.  hmm.  what if he IS alistair.  wouldn't that be wierd.  an alistair in britain and the alistair in nyc.  i want to hear him play some of alistair's works.  where IS alistair.  goodbye alistair.  i will forever miss that 8 hour concert...and yet, i really do want to hear the schumann.  it's just a little something i'll play if i ever have the misfortune to meet thal in person.

I know that this is raking up something from almost three weeks ago, but let me assure you that "cmg" is not me (and vice versa). Why you'd want to hear "cmg" playing my works I do not know, although I say that only because I have not heard "cmg" play and also because I don't think that you, Susan, have heard any of my music yet. Anyway, you know where I am now. Back here. As are you. So - no need for good-byes. But what 8 hour concert is/was it of which you wrote here? And what Schumann work/s were you talking about?

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

I don't think that you, Susan, have heard any of my music yet.

She is not alone, neither have I.  Why don't you ask Nils to put one of you shorter piano works on the free sheet music section, and then we can judge for ourselves 

[ahinton]

She is not alone, neither have I.  Why don't you ask Nils to put one of you shorter piano works on the free sheet music section, and then we can judge for ourselves 

For one thing I have no scan and upload facility here and for another...(!!!); anyway, thanks all the same for the invitation/suggestion, but I'm not really looking to be "judged" right now, if that's OK with you! (after all, I might otherwise be found guilty and sentenced to six months' uninterrupted Bible study...)

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Since nothing worth listening to has been composed since Brahms, its probably rubbish anyway.   Still, you never know 

[counterpoint]

Hey oh my gosh look at this:

You may not post content, or in any manner link to sites or images, containing pornography, sexually explicit, gross violence, politically or religiously offensive material, or are determined by moderators to be detrimental to the community.

Its the forum rules

BUT

What is the deepest religious believe to one person -

is the most offensive personal depreciation to another person.

Does this mean, that personal depreciation is okay, if you say "that's my religious belief"?

[prometheus]

If offensive views are no longer offensive when they are religious is not stated. But sometimes this is the result.

Anyway, it does mean that I can't state facts while other people's lies must go unchallenged.


It's also kind of strange that one cannot post 'politically offensive' material. What does that mean? I have seen people claim that communism is evil. Is that offensive? Or is it offensive to say that Bush is a war criminal.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because the moderators can delete anything they feel like according to the last part.

[henrah]

I know I'm a late comer, but for this poll to work effectively there has to be a dividing line between the two meanings of the word God. Are we describing an omnipotent and all powerful being in the sky, or another part of ourselves that we live with? I couldn't really describe the latter very well, so it's open to interpretation.

[prometheus]

I saw your other topic. I don't know 'god' is. But why you use the word 'god' for that what you describe is beyond me. That what you describe can be called 'delusion' or 'confidence' or something similar. Why call it god? A word assosiated with supernatural powers that exist far beyong us.

[henrah]

I don't call mine God, at least I don't mean to. I believe that others call what I described God, unknowingly. I think that what I described is what many believe to be God, whom they ask questions and get answers. Remember this is just my thoughts on the idea, and how I explain them probably needs some fine-tuning. I'm often at a loss as to how to describe something, which is why sometimes I don't do as well in exams as I should. But I digress: the main point is that what I described is how I believe others communicate with God. You know, you get these people who say that God has talked to them, or they've had a conversation with God, or they asked God something and God answered: I believe that what they believe to be God is a part of themselves that everyone has. At least those are my thoughts. Again this message might need some fine-tuning to ensure that the message I put across is the one I intend.
Henrah

[prometheus]

My analysis of those people that claim they communicate is much simpler.

Most of them only claim that god communicates with them. They know better than anyone that it isn't true but they want it to be true so they just act if god did.
If you question people that claim they talk with god they will often not be able to explain how this happens. They will come up with meaningless and unconvincing stories. These people don't even make up amazing fairy tales about what happened. They just start with the idea that god talks to them. Then when they need to explain it they start looking in their perfectly normal life for something that may be interpreted as god talking to them.

Then you have some that don't fit this general category but are quite similar.

Those that are left have serious mental illnesses. They hallucinate, etc etc. They need help quickly. At least if they experience god talking to them on a regular basis.

[pianistimo]

now that IS offensive.  if christians believe the bible - then they believe that Christ came, died, and was ressurrected so that we might live.  our way of being 'born again' of spirit (just as Christ said to the samaritan woman - whom he told could drink 'living waters') is to be baptized for the remission of sins.  when a christian is baptized - it is like being married.  you commit yourself fully to Christ.  to admit sin when it found.  to repent. and to 'draw close' to God.  if a chrisitian doesn't believe they communicate to God through the Spirit - they are not drawing the sustenance that they could.  it is POWER.  the highest POWER there is.  there is no other TRUE AND REAL power such as this.  this power can move MOUNTAINS.  mountains meaning huge problems.  i've prayed over problems in my life and have gotten direct answers. 

usually, when someone first comes to God - the best thing to do is fast and pray.  the fasting means that you are willing to give up something (a meal).  usually, if christians think deeply - they can give up a meal and give the money they would have spent on it to someone else in need.  also, God says he will speedily answer our prayers if we also listen to the needs of others quickly.  i have found this to be absolutely true.

noone can convince me otherwise.  that communicating with God is a dead-end and is false.  that is the LIE.  the lie is that God doesn't want a relationship with us - whom he made in HIS image.  now why would he make a creation in His own image and ignore it?  nonsense.  if a woman and man have a baby - and see how much it is in their own image - they are more likely to love and cherish it.  i think we are 'children' of God and it does not yet appear what we shall be.  but, we know that 'we shall be like Him.'  so, at the ressurrection (the last trumpet) we shall all be changed.  changed into what?  into spirit!  the Holy Spirit is like seed.  it is divinely begetting us into the next body - the Spirit body - by Christ's intercession for us on our behalf.  we will be with Him.  not far away from Him.

ps another way the Holy Spirit communicates is by piquing our conscience.  what we read in the bible becomes the 'spirit of the law' in our minds.  we are not doing it because we have to - but because we want to.  we see it is a beautiful way of life.  to live for others and not just for ourselves.  the Holy Spirit is a giving way.

[prometheus]

How can saying something that cannot be challenged on an empirical basis be offensive?

[pianistimo]

why are christians so involved in giving aid - when entire governments cannot be as effective.  because christians know that the proof of their relationship with God depends on their relationship with their neighbor.  Christ said 'you will know them by their fruits.'

[wishful thinker]

Christ said 'you will know them by their fruits.'

he could have been talking about Pianostreet 

[ahinton]

Christ said 'you will know them by their fruits.'

he could have been talking about Pianostreet 

Or even about the need for five portions daily for general human health; on the other hand, had he been thinking about the money-changers in the temple at the time He said this, He could even have meant to say "fruit machines", or something...

Best,

Alistair

[pianolearner]

prometheus,

I hope you don’t make a histrionic exit and attempt to blame pianistimo...like thalbergmad 

[wishful thinker]

He could even have meant to say "fruit machines", or something...

Like "pull three cherries in a row and you'll get something"?  Possibly 

[henrah]

My analysis of those people that claim they communicate is much simpler.

Most of them only claim that god communicates with them. They know better than anyone that it isn't true but they want it to be true so they just act if god did.
If you question people that claim they talk with god they will often not be able to explain how this happens. They will come up with meaningless and unconvincing stories. These people don't even make up amazing fairy tales about what happened. They just start with the idea that god talks to them. Then when they need to explain it they start looking in their perfectly normal life for something that may be interpreted as god talking to them.

Then you have some that don't fit this general category but are quite similar.

Those that are left have serious mental illnesses. They hallucinate, etc etc. They need help quickly. At least if they experience god talking to them on a regular basis.

This is true: many people that claim to talk to God more than likely just want the attention. Or hallucinated. But don't you think that a reason why they don't make up amazing fairy tales about it is because they actually might have talked to God, assuming that God is a physical (albeit tangibly or intangibly, however contradictory that may sound) entity? Usually when someone makes up an amazing story in brilliant detail, it sounds like a lie because you think that they spent a long time thinking everything over down to the minutest detail. So in this case, I'd be more inclined to believe that they aren't doing it for the attention if their stories are less than fantastic. And confusion about the whole issue only secures the belief even more to me. I mean, who would lie to someone with 'I don't know' as a backstory?

However, that's not to say that God did talk to them. That's just to prove or disprove that they were doing it for attention. We will never be able to infallably prove that God spoke to someone, or that an angel came to someone, or that someone saw an alien life form. Lie detector tests are the best devices we to determine these things, and even then they can be fallable.

Prometheus, I see that your analysis stems from the fact that you don't believe in God period. I think that to objectively analyse religious claims you must be open to the possibility of God existing. You might not like it, but I think it's necessary to produce a sound arguement. You're very good with politics arguements because it has no esoteric or fantastical sides to it, just pure facts which you can use to present your arguement.

[prometheus]

This is true: many people that claim to talk to God more than likely just want the attention. Or hallucinated. But don't you think that a reason why they don't make up amazing fairy tales about it is because they actually might have talked to God, assuming that God is a physical entity?

Ok first off, I think the people desribed in the first group are sincere. Deep inside they know that what they tell is not true, but on the surface they honestly believe what they claim.

It's a bit similar to alcoholics that deny their behavior. They know exactly what they are doing but at the same time they cannot come to terms with it and they can honestly deny it.

As for the idea that people actually might have talked to god. It might be true but it is extremely unlikely. If you look at the evidence for this then there is absolutely nothing that even seems to suggest this. You cannot defend this idea. Occam's razor takes care of it.


Example; you see a curtain moving.

This means that here is some force being exerted on the curtain. But what is the nature of the force? May it be aliens for Zeta Reticula? Maybe. What would it mean for the force being exerted by aliens from Zeta Reticula? Well, life must have developed on one of their planets, if the binary star system even has planets. Then this life must have aquired intelligence and it must have had enough time to develop way beyong our technology. They need to have developed technology that makes it easy for them to travel to earth. But there is the limit of light speed. Then, why has SETI never observed anything? And why is it that the first time these aliens have an influence on something on earth it is this particular curtain? Or have they been here for a while? If so why have they never been detected?

Or maybe it is just the wind. The wind exists, we all know. The wind can perfectly explain the movement without bringing up any new questions or problems.

Therefore the wind is the simplest explenation and the most logical one.


Note that not always the most logical conclusion is the right one. But this is because we lack information. On basis of the information we have now we cannot assume people talk with god.

If we do not apply logic we cannot come to the right conclusion no matter how deceptive or complete the facts that we do have access to are.

[pianistimo]

dear prometheus,

if God did not exist - the us constutuion preamble would not exist.  'we hold these truths to be self-evident ... that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from their CREATOR ... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

now, true - there was slavery a long time ago - but generally people followed the compass of the bible.  especially the early settlers like the pilgrims.  they did not come to america for gold - but for religious freedom.

now, when someone says 'you don't talk to God' that is effectively telling them 'you don't pray.'  now, how would you know for sure - prometheus - that i don't pray.  that is talking to God.  and, what if He responds by putting answers to questions that are easily acessed in the bible.  sometimes i'll ask a question and ask him to lead me to the answer.  then, i look in the bible - and sometimes i feel that he directs me to the places that i can find an answer.  this has happened many many times to me.  but, also - i have had direct answer to prayers about the simplest things - to the most complex.  God is powerful!  and has much more simplicity to Him than the occultish ways that people rely on sometimes.  you know - horiscopes - fortune telling - astrology - new age religion.

you can tell the Holy Spirit is ALIVE and powerful - because it always brings a good fruit.  something that benefits everyone.  i believe prayer benefits everyone.  at every service at my church (and many many others) we pray for those who are sick, who have some kind of health problem, who are in the middle of a difficult family problem, who need guidance in some way, etc etc.  we call out their names - and would you know - by a week or so later MOST problems are solved.  even if it is the beginning of the solution - God helps you help yourself by giving you a solution.  something to DO.  he doesn't want lazy christians.

also, we learn to pray for 'enemies.'  they are not our enemies - but enemies of christ.  we realize that people don't understand what they say about christ until they meet him personally (in their own lives).  sometimes by circumstances that force them to take a second look at why they exist.  what we are meant to be here for.  only ourselves?  no.  for God and our neighbor (and family).  we are meant to live peacefully together and not to be warring and fighting and jealous.  this is a simple thing.  the ten commandments. 

[prometheus]

dear prometheus,

if God did not exist - the us constutuion preamble would not exist.  'we hold these truths to be self-evident ... that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from their CREATOR ... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Non sequitur.

That's it.

Now, when someone says 'you don't talk to God'.

I though this was about if God talked back...

I am pretty sure you pray.

[pianistimo]

sorry to go on - but i look at it this way.  kind of like a monetary system.  it used to be - way back in history - that people were paid by silver and gold coinage. the silver dollar was 317 and some quarter grains of silver (don't quote me on the exact amount - but something like that) and the dollar was divided into ten equal parts (dimes and so on) with equal amounts of silver.  now, the richer people used gold and the common people silver.  but, they used something of value to express their payments. 

today - we use paper.  promisary notes - in a way.  but, it isn't as 'heartfelt.' 

as i see it - we can pay our neighbor lip service and hate them in our hearts.  we can give - but begrudgingly.  GOD sees our hearts.  what others see (christians that seem hypocritical) may not be how God sees us.  everyone has sins.  especially christians.  but, God sees that christians are willing to repent.  therefore their 'money' is like gold to God.  he refines us and refines us until our hearts (to Him) are like pure gold.  He purifies our hearts so that we begin to want to truly sacrifice ourselves for others.

we cannot purify ourselves.  He does it for us by giving us trials and troubles sometimes in this life.  it might be by the hands of our 'enemies.'  but, what he also does is give us the downpayment of a portion of the Holy Spirit.  (of which - we will have a FULL portion at the ressurrection of the dead - and the second coming of our Lord).  the Holy Spirit helps us through trials and difficuties without blaming God.  without saying - 'He didn't answer my prayer in one second.  therefore He doesn't exist.'  i say - God answers prayers very speedily when you overcome doubts.  once you truly believe God IS no matter what good or evil happens (as with Job's trials) you fully trust God and are blessed at every turn.

btw, job's wife was a sort of example of giving up.  she said 'curse God and die.'

[prometheus]

I can't follow you at all.

I am sure you believ e all kinds of things. But the question is if you can give any arguments in support of them. Or if you can justify your ideas and beliefs.

Anyway, the issue was providing evidence that god talks to people and that they aren't either imagining it, making it up or something else.

[pianistimo]

the fact that we exist and live and have our being through God - proves it to me.  but, not to everyone.  i think the school system has educated minds in opposition to the idea of any kind of 'god.'  but, in reality - you worship something.  it is what you put first.  philosophy, religion, money...whatever.  now, just because one person worships one thing and another another doesn't make them less or more of a person - but as i see it - there is only one TRUE way. they cannot all be true.  some say they all lead to the same path - God or nothingness.

but, what if some ways lead to a false god or false religion?  how can you tell if you are worshipping something or talking to something/someone that doesn't exist or exists but is demonic? 

as i see it - truth plays itself out over time.  you see - as with seeds - what the tree turns into.  a fruit tree or a bramble or thorny vine.  everything has some sort of consequence.  just like gravity.  you jump up.  you come down.  you break a commandment - you find out it is true.  a law with consequences.  it doesn't go away just because a philosophy says that 'God is dead.'  God's word stands forever.

take honoring your father and mother.  it says the blessing for that is a long life.  and, the blessing for paying tithes to God is a cup that runs over.  now there are many ways to pay tithes.  sometimes it is giving what you have (not always monetarily) to give.  it can be in a direct manner.  clothing/food/whatever.  God wants us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves in these 'last days.'  and i do think that we are in the 'last days.'  this is also a proof of the bible.  that God's words on prophecy are much more accurate than any sort of prophetic visions from someone who is not Christ centered. 

when every word of the bible comes true - people will be saying - oh, i see now.  God is real.

[prometheus]

the fact that we exist and live and have our being through God - proves it to me.

Fact is that one does not follow from the other, whatever you think about it.

[pianistimo]

tell me how your heart beats?  what electrically charged it at birth?  God?

[prometheus]

The heart beats before birth...

You missed the point. Even if it were true, one does not follow from the other.

The fact that you can't explain something doesn't mean only god can have done it and thus god must exist because that what you can't explain happened.

The argument can break down at at least three points. For example, you can't explain something very well. There is a law of nature at work that we have no understanding of. Some entity entirely different from what we would call a god is responsible. A god is responsible but not your god, etc.

Anyway, the things you propose can be explained rather easily. And those questions that you may propose that cannot be answered can be explained with equal satisfaction by an endless list of strange hypotesises as it can be satisfactory explained by your god.

[pianistimo]

true.  the heart beats before birth -but i'm talking about the heart-lung operation that swtiches over as the baby takes it's first breath.  most mammals babies are forced to take this first breath of air and totally reverse or switch breathing mannerisms.  tell me that God has nothing to do with life!  there are too many anomolies that science cannot explain.

life
the spirit in man - consciousness
the fact the earth is one planet in zillions that has life - and has a liveable atmosphere
the fact that we are ominpotently directed in history (many many examples of a few winning over the many)
the correlation between historicity of the places of the bible and peoples of the bible. 

thal brought up the pyramids.  in exodus the israelites were helping to build the cities pithom and ramses.  the areas that the israelites came out of (egypt) along the nile in the area of 'goshen' is exactly where ramses moves his headquarters.  the waters of the nile probably helped to smooth the ramps and make moving these very heavy tonned bricks up into their places.

it even explains in the bible what these bricks were made of.  the mud and straw (not unlike many dwellings in other desert areas like africa).  the limestone was part of it, too.  but, when the israelites were there - they were working in quarries and mudpits and forced to do backbreaking labor.  who freed them?  themselves?  no.  God overcame this mighty pharoah with only a few hundred israelites to their 600 or so army.  history is replete with examples that prove God's word true.

for instance - i was reading how that as the israelites increased and defeated many of their enemies - the proof was in the layers of 'defeat.'  it is said that these various enemies could not have been destroyed by just a few desert wanderers.  that they had to have been demolished by a sizeable group of people.  so israel DID quickly increase in numbers. 

back to the pharoahs.  it was found in the area between san-tanis-zoan and pelusium many artifacts that were moved to other areas of egypt - just as pieces of the pyramids have been stolen and moved - the monuments built to this ramses II.  the last part of the name ra-mses is moshe or mose and  tuthmose (could it be?) this moses name was an egyptian name.  probably.  because the egyptian princess named him for being 'drawn out of the water.' 

now, in dna tracings of areas in the west bank - we can find dwellings of these early israelites after they travelled through the wilderness and came into israel.  the types of dwellings are consistent with the way people lived back then.  they had multigenerational dwellings.  extended families living together in these sort of built into the ground 'tents.'  mr devan - an archeological person - actually saw the sites and the pottery and remains as consistent with the period of time of the israelites.  now, if we trace them genetically by dna - this particular peoples are traced back to egypt.  why?  well, because the bible is true.

you, prometheus - have to prove to me that it is not.  there is nothing in the bible that is false. 

[prometheus]

I don't understand what is the purpose of drifting to a new subject.

What is the course for the research that shows people in Palestine can be traces back to Egypt and thus providing evidence for the exodus.

There are plenty of things in the bible that clearly contradict reality. You know this even better than I do.

As for the exodus in general. There is no evidence found in the Sinai desert to support the idea that the Israelites lived here for 40 years.
There is no historical document that described how a pharaoh died in a flood. There is no historical record for the ten plagues or for Israelite slaves in Israel. Etc etc..

[pianistimo]

i have to go pick up my five year old from bus stop - but i'll be back, ok.

as i see it- the israelites were 'nomadic' for a period of time.  that means that they moved from location to location.  it doesn't mean they didn't exist simply because they left little to no trace.  actually, there are pillars and monuments that they did erect - all the forefathers way back to abrahams time where he buried sarah at the cave of machpelah.  all these places you can find!  they are literal places with similar or slightly changed names today.

this archeologist, william g. dever, that worked on the site in the west bank in the 60's before and after the six day war.  he wrote a book 'who were the early israelites and where did they come from.'  this book is available from amazon - but i read excerpts (skipping over the password part and just clicking on various chapters of the book to read excerpts).

for an interesting insight into some other historical things: (try typing both these things into google scholar)

https://home-3.tiscali.hl/~meester7/engmoses.html


i think it is interesting and fruitful to have discussion with you, prometheus, because it settles more and more things in my mind as positive about the bible.  i research it and it proves that it is true.  there is nothing i have disproven about the bible.

now, you may think the bible is 'not in reality.'  but, perhaps WE are the ones not in a true reality. the spiritual dimension.

[pianistimo]

as i see it - the proof is actually right in your hands.  dna.  tracing people back to their original locations.

[prometheus]

There are many things about the bible that are historical accurate. Many things in the bible reference to actual geografic locations, cities, etc.

But you seem to have the black and white view that the bible is either totally true or totally false, despite heavy and intensive arguments by several people.

Fact is that the Exodus story makes all kinds of claims for which no hard evidence can be found. Doesn't mean that it never happened, or that something which the bible used as basis for it's mytholical spin-off never happened. But if you want to know for sure what about that story is actually true or not you have to conclude that there is no evidence to support the story.

Your link is https://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engmoses.html

There is nothing about DNA on that page.

Anyway, the genetics involved with tracking linage of people is exactly the same genetics you dispute in evolution discussions.

[thalbergmad]

 

thal brought up the pyramids.  in exodus the israelites were helping to build the cities pithom and ramses.  the areas that the israelites came out of (egypt) along the nile in the area of 'goshen' is exactly where ramses moves his headquarters.  the waters of the nile probably helped to smooth the ramps and make moving these very heavy tonned bricks up into their places.

it even explains in the bible what these bricks were made of.  the mud and straw (not unlike many dwellings in other desert areas like africa).  the limestone was part of it, too.  but, when the israelites were there - they were working in quarries and mudpits and forced to do backbreaking labor.  who freed them?  themselves?  no.  God overcame this mighty pharoah with only a few hundred israelites to their 600 or so army.  history is replete with examples that prove God's word true.

for instance - i was reading how that as the israelites increased and defeated many of their enemies - the proof was in the layers of 'defeat.'  it is said that these various enemies could not have been destroyed by just a few desert wanderers.  that they had to have been demolished by a sizeable group of people.  so israel DID quickly increase in numbers. 

back to the pharoahs.  it was found in the area between san-tanis-zoan and pelusium many artifacts that were moved to other areas of egypt - just as pieces of the pyramids have been stolen and moved - the monuments built to this ramses II.  the last part of the name ra-mses is moshe or mose and  tuthmose (could it be?) this moses name was an egyptian name.  probably.  because the egyptian princess named him for being 'drawn out of the water.' 

I have been re-reading " A Test of Time" by David Rohl, a most excellent Biblical Archeological book.

He gives good argument that the generally accepted Egyptian Chronology can in some instances be hundreds of years out due to some Dynasties running at the same time.

It is possible that people trying to find evidence for the sojourn in Egypt, were looking in the right place but in the wrong time. The sojourn lasted throughout the 12th and 13th dynasties which would be confirmed by the Asiatic culture that exisited at the city of Avaris in the region of Goshen.

The Pharaoh of the Exodus can be identified with Dudimose who was the 36th ruler of the 13th Dynasty. The death pits found at Tell ed-Daba provides some evidence of disasters associated with the plagues of Egypt, but would also indicate that it was not only the Epyptians that suffered. The plague that killed the "first born" becomes more believable if re-translated to "the flower of".

The link between Ramsees and all these events seem to be very weak. Perhaps some Biblical scholars thought that it should have been a Great Pharoah that was involved in the Exodus?

The crossing of the Red Sea that seems so impossible could be another mis translation. The original Hebrew is Yam-suf which means sea of reeds. This could refer to the salt lakes and marshes which is now where the Suez Canal lies. God was not required to part the waters as there were only shallow boggy lakes. People could probably walk across, but i would not fancy being in a chariot.

I was fascinated with the rather fanciful theory that the parting of the Red Sea could have been caused by the huge volcanic explosion that blew apart the Greek Island of Santorini in the 14th century BC. Some Scientist calculated that the tsunami would have been powerfull enough to empty the Red Sea before the wave came crashing through.

There is much archeological evidence to support Biblical writings, but somtimes i feel that the many translations have lead to incorrect interpretations and fanciful claims.

Thal

[pianistimo]

hmm.  very  interesting what you say.  but,  if the israelites were building a city called ramses - he would have been very much alive at the time.  also, it probably WAS a great ramses (just as with herod 'the great).  he had enough leverage to pull of asking the egyptians to kill all the baby boys of the israelites.  also, all the pillars and obelisks that were built around this city and all - were near goshen.  why?  because that's where the work was getting done.

also, we can trace the pharoahs by joseph.  there was an archeological find (i forget where i read it - but i think national geographic) where they found a picture inside a tomb or outside?  where it depicted the seven years of plenty and also the seven years of famine. if we know which pharoah that was - then we know which one died (speaking in exodus 1:8 - now a new king arose over egypt, who did not know joseph). 

this new king apparently lived a good long time.  moses being 40 when he killed the egyptian and then spending 40 years in midian after he escaped.  he would have been 80 years old.  so this pharoah would have been old or dead.  in exodus 2:23 - it says that this particular pharoah died (that raised moses as his own son).  now there is one pharoah that could not have any sons.  and, it is thought that it was this particular pharoah that allowed his princess daughter to raise moses.  he was basically an adopted son of this pharoah. 

so, we're now on a third pharoah (all the while the israelites are becoming more enslaved).  so the third one - whomever he is (and not being a scholar yet - but a wanna be - we assume it could be any of many in the 13th dynasty - and thal could be right).  but, he would probably be ascending the throne in that particular region right around goshen.  after all - the israelites were still there making bricks and now having to go get straw, too.

the plagues of egypt are mentioned in exodus 8:21 as near the land of goshen - where in vs. 22 the israelites are living.  it was a 'sign' that the plagues did not descend on goshen but only the area where the egyptians were living.  this was a SIGN.  it was divinely rendered.  just as the waters of the red sea were divinely parted.  and the manna was divinely given.  if these things are merely scientific - they would not seem miraculous to the israelites and the egyptians would have had no need for magicians to match the 'tricks.'  they would have been science.

God was showing himself superior to the god RA  - the pharoahs majesty - and knowledge - and supposed assumption of the deity by following a prescribed babylonian system that was based in magic and astrology.  the pyramids being important - as mentioned to astrological and sun worship.  this is my impression of why God decided to allow this kingdom to be destroyed.  even one of the statues of ramses fell on it's face (smashing the nose quite badly). 

it all shows me - that any government or system of man can be quickly put down by God. 

[pianistimo]

btw, i forgot to say 'hello thal' - so 'hello.'  i see you are in a cheery mood - excepting of course, the three way wreck you speak of in your personal message.

as it so happens, my mind is in the middle of a three way wreck right now, too.  i see, after reading 'text from joseph and aseneth' from the apocryphal bible that the pharoah of joseph's time died at 109 years of age (so it says) and joseph (who had married aseneth - according to genesis 41:45-50) became king of egypt.  according to this text - he reigned for 48 years.

so that would be - before the new king mentioned that didn't know joseph (obviously - because joseph died in the previous chapter).  it is interesting that in gen. 1:26 it confirms that joseph died at 110 - was embalmed and placed in a coffin in egypt.

ok - now my mind goes in another direction.  this new book i picked up at ymca whilst waiting for my daughter.  the title is 'a change of heart' by claire sylvia.  now she claims to have experienced some pretty interesting stuff - after getting a complete heart and lung transplant.  this is how the forward starts:  (to give another side to the mysterious

'i know the truth of claire sylvia's remarkable story.  i met her in the hospital shortly after her transplant, and we have stayed in touch since then.  while i can't necessarily explain the amazing things that have happened to claire, i have no trouble believing them.  that's why i enjoy speaking with astronomers and quantum physicists, who are continually dealing with mysterious and unexplained events.  i look forward to the day when physicians, too, will be comfortable ackowledging and accepting the mysteries all around us....although doctors tend to shy away from metaphysics, science and the  spirit don't have to be at odds.  'the most beautiful experience we can have,' wrote einstein, 'is the mysterious.  it is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.'

[pianistimo]

the third part of the train wreck is trying to figure out why i am trying to convince thal and prometheus of my views.  i suppose it is - in a manner - a conversion of sorts.  although i'm not sure who is being converted to what.  i am hoping that even a small conversion to reading the bible once in a while - just to see what it says - will bring them closer to this mysterious part of life that people categorize variously as religion, God, mystery.  but, the thing is - after reading this story of aseneth (and joseph) - aseneth was allowed to understand God after fasting and prayer.  He accepted her into the book of life.  if this story is not only apocryphal but a true rendering of what happened - it would be very significant in my mind - because she is the mother of ephraim and manassah - which are the children of birthright.  a true queen.  well, so much for this tonight.  i shall render useless any further discussion by dullness of head at 12:30 pm.

[soliloquy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum




Verified number of species of ants: 9,000.  It is estimated that there have been at least TEN MILLION species over the course of the span of the planet, but let's just use 9000 because it's all we need.  It is estimated that at least 50 ants would be required to sustain and repopulate a small colony.  Let's ignore the 2 of each discrepency.  Now we have 450,000 ants.  Now the queen isn't gonna do too well if she's just laying on a piece of wood.  Now we have 450,000 ant colonies; dirt and enclosers.  Let's say that each enclosure is very small... just 5x5x5 inches.  125 cubic inches.  125x450,000=56,250,000 cubic inches.  Number of species of termites: 2000.  50x2000=100,000.  Termites are a bit bigger than ants, right?  So let's give them 12x12x12.  And that's REALLY small for fifty termites.  They'll definitely need outside food a few times a day.  172,800,000 square inches for termites.  Holy cow a termite eats 5 grams of wood a day!  So we have 100,000 termites eating 5 grams each a day, so 500,000 grams a day, for fourty days, right?  500,000x40=20,000,000.  Wow, 22 tons of wood for the termites.  Density of pine = 0.50g/cm³.   We have 22 tons of pine, so how big is that?  .50g/.39inches cubed.  number of grams in a pound is 454.  454x44,000=19,976,000.  The Ark was 450x75x45 feet.  We've just done ants and termites, two of the smallest things alive, and the ark is about to overfill already.

[pianolearner]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Verified number of species of ants: 9,000.  It is estimated that there have been at least TEN MILLION species over the course of the span of the planet, but let's just use 9000 because it's all we need.  It is estimated that at least 50 ants would be required to sustain and repopulate a small colony.  Let's ignore the 2 of each discrepency.  Now we have 450,000 ants.  Now the queen isn't gonna do too well if she's just laying on a piece of wood.  Now we have 450,000 ant colonies; dirt and enclosers.  Let's say that each enclosure is very small... just 5x5x5 inches.  125 cubic inches.  125x450,000=56,250,000 cubic inches.  Number of species of termites: 2000.  50x2000=100,000.  Termites are a bit bigger than ants, right?  So let's give them 12x12x12.  And that's REALLY small for fifty termites.  They'll definitely need outside food a few times a day.  172,800,000 square inches for termites.  Holy cow a termite eats 5 grams of wood a day!  So we have 100,000 termites eating 5 grams each a day, so 500,000 grams a day, for fourty days, right?  500,000x40=20,000,000.  Wow, 22 tons of wood for the termites.  Density of pine = 0.50g/cm³.   We have 22 tons of pine, so how big is that?  .50g/.39inches cubed.  number of grams in a pound is 454.  454x44,000=19,976,000.  The Ark was 450x75x45 feet.  We've just done ants and termites, two of the smallest things alive, and the ark is about to overfill already.

There is a flaw in your methodology. You wouldn't need 50 ants from each species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

In practice, these [Definitions of species] often coincide, and the differences between them are more a matter of emphasis than of outright contradiction. Nevertheless, no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgement. Given the complexity of life, some have argued that such an objective definition is in all likelihood impossible, and biologists should settle for the most practical definition.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

As differences in and between populations accumulate over time, speciation, the development of new species from existing ones, can occur. All known organisms, living or dead, are related by common descent through numerous speciation events starting from a single ancestor.

[wishful thinker]

Except, there were supposed just two of each species, one male and one female.  And they were animals not insects.  So your point is?

BTW shhhhhhh its not supposed to be taken literally 

[pianolearner]

Except, there were supposed just two of each species, one male and one female.  And they were animals not insects.  So your point is?

BTW shhhhhhh its not supposed to be taken literally 

My point?? That's hysterical, is there any point to this thread? 

BTW, shhhhhh an insect IS an animal...

[wishful thinker]

Not in King James' day.

Anyway, the gopher wood probably already had some termites in it, and no doubt a lot of the animals had fleas, lice and ants etc on them before embarkation.  So I doubt to Noa would have needed to seek them out.  But then how would he have sexed them if he tried?  God didn't give any special instructions on how to sex termintes, so I think that we can safely suggest that "animals" didn't include insects.

Its all down to translation 

[pianolearner]

Not in King James' day.

Anyway, the gopher wood probably already had some termites in it, and no doubt a lot of the animals had fleas, lice and ants etc on them before embarkation.  So I doubt to Noa would have needed to seek them out.  But then how would he have sexed them if he tried?  God didn't give any special instructions on how to sex termintes, so I think that we can safely suggest that "animals" didn't include insects.

Its all down to translation 

Ok, so now it seems the ark may have been big enough! I think what happened was this: Noah was in the arks kitchen making a sandwich and he accidentally dropped a piece of bread.  Like modern day bread it rolled to an inaccessible position under the fridge, so he left it there. A single ant discovered it and managed to get a load of its friends over before the rain started. Like me, none of them brought an umbrella because when they left home the weather was hot and sunny. However, halfway through the meal the rain began to fall and by the time they finished eating it was absolutely torrential. None of the ants wanted to get wet so they decided to wait until the rain stopped. The rest is history.