God poll

[jpianoflorida]

I have read things much more amazing. But that doesn't mean it was non-fiction.

nor does it mean it was fiction      the argument can go both ways.     I'm not sure why you guys keep debating!    No one will ever win.  Neither side can fully prove anything!     Our side (christian) depends on Faith.   The other side has no concept of our "faith", so therefore it's a no-win situation.  If you don't have our "faith", there's no way you can undersand what we "know" for a fact.     And there is no way we can full prove to you what we "know" by "faith".

[mad_max2024]

nor does it mean it was fiction      the argument can go both ways. 

If you read in a book that some guy parted a sea by raising a rod, you would probably assume it is either fiction or a symbolic metaphor for something else, rather than take it for a literal opening of the waters.
It's occam's razor... you can't prove anything but you take the most simple explanation as the most likely to be true
The only reason you believe it is because it is written in the book defended by your religion.
That's why it is faith...

[ramseytheii]

THE BAPTISM OF CHRIST  By Christopher Montgomery

The Bible strongly suggests that the baptism of Christ was a historical UFO Event. This hypothesis can be drawn from such references as "The Book of Luke" Chapter 3 verses 21-22, Matthew, chapter 3:13 and in John, chapter 1 of the HOLY BIBLE.

The baptism of Christ took place in the wilderness, by the Jordan River. Baptism was symbolic of cleansing or washing sin from one's soul. John the Baptist was there and he performed the ritual. After Christ was immersed in the waters of the Jordan, an unidentified flying object suddenly appeared in the heavens. The Bible describes a solid physical object. The object did not make a sound. It glided down to where Christ now stood, upright in the water. The flight characteristics of this object were similar to that of a dove. The craft descended upon Christ. He was then taken up, into the wing-shaped conveyance. The craft quickly departed, removing Him from their sight. The Bible says that this wing-shaped craft drove Him into the wilderness. He disappeared and was not seen again for forty days.

Luke said the Holy Spirit descended upon him (Jesus) in bodily form, as a dove. Luke was implying that the Holy Spirit had a bodily shape. The signs and wonders that accompanied the prophets of Old in the HOLY BIBLE always suggested that the Holy Spirit of God was a dynamic, preternatural event that was unlike anything static, earthly or temporal. If Jesus had been led up by a pigeon or a dove, that would have indicated that Jesus was a false prophet. (Luke, Op Cit).

It is important to stress that Luke didn't say that a dove descended upon Jesus, but that the Spirit took a bodily shape, which was like a dove. Luke was comparing what was seen to something earthly, so that the reader could understand that the Holy Spirit appeared as a flying object that came down from heaven. Downing says:

    One of the difficulties with the dove' concept is that the Luke reading has been made normative for the Matthew, Mark, and John readings. The latter say that the Spirit was 'descending like a dove.' They do not say that the Spirit physically looked like a dove-they are referring to the similarity between the way in which a dove descends in flight, wings spread and motionless, and the way in which the Spirit appears when it descends. Apparently there is nothing visibly in motion when the Spirit is seen to descend, except the motion of the whole 'Spirit body,' whatever that may be; the Spirit is also by implication nearly silent in its descent." - Dr. Barry H. Downing THE BIBLE AND FLYING SAUCERS

John the Baptist as well as others who were present at the christening saw this UFO event. John says "I knew him not, but he that sent me" was an angel, a messenger of God, who told John that "upon whom thou shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining...the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost." (John 1:33)

    "Before Pentecost, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit among humans had been very different. In the Old testament, when the Holy Spirit came upon someone it was temporary in duration and usually limited to an individual. Examples of this included Israel's judges, many of her kings, and prophets. But as time went on, they began to long for a great outpouring of God's spirit upon all people as the prophet Joel foretold would happen (Joel 2.28). - NOT LEFT ALONE By Andrew J. Lauer

    "Jesus' words to His disciples about the Holy Spirit had profound implications for them and us. He knew that the fulfillment of Israel's longings for God's Spirit were about to take place, and not only Israel, but the entire world would benefit from the Holy Spirit's coming. This is why Jesus said, 'It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you' (John 16:7). And He has fulfilled His promise, for the Holy Spirit does dwell among us..." - NOT LEFT ALONE By Andrew J. Lauer

ALIEN ABDUCTION OR DIVINE DIRECTION?
One possible translation would mean that a chevron, or triangular shaped object, descended from the heavenly abyss above and took Jesus on board their aircraft. (See photo). Although some Bible scholars may disagree, this translation would suggest that when Christ was "led up" by the Spirit, that he was "caught up" or "snatched away" from their sight. It was at that point that he was taken into the belly of this heavenly conveyance, which was described as a dove-shaped UFO. It was after that, where Christ was then taken to a place that the HOLY BIBLE describes as "the wilderness."

 

    The HOLY BIBLE says that the "Spirit of God" was a solid, flying object that literally "drove Jesus into the wilderness."

In the New Testament, the gospel of Mark says that the Spirit of God drove Jesus Christ "into the Wilderness." When the HOLY BIBLE says that the Spirit of God drove Christ into the wilderness, it would mean that some mode of conveyance or transportation took Him there. For example, "we drove Betty to the store," or "Scott drove his Mercedes to the graduation. (Matthew 3.1-17 and John 1.19-32).

There are two historically significant events in the HOLY BIBLE, which document Christ's departure from the earth. Numerous people saw both of these events and each event was well documented.

In the first report, the UFO appeared from heaven and was described as the "Spirit of God." This unidentified flying object descended from the sky with a flight characteristic similar to that of a dove. This wing-shaped object came to rest above Christ and plucked Him from the waters of the river Jordan. It then drove Christ "into the wilderness."

In the second case, a heavenly conveyance appeared as a cloud whereupon Jesus was caught up or snatched away "from their sight." In this case, The Son of God was never seen again. This "Ascension" was an event where Jesus was taken into a "space cloud" and was "removed from their sight." The word used in the Greek to describe this abduction is the word Harpadzo, a term that means to be "caught up" or "snatched away...suddenly." (See Acts 1.8-12)

    "Who are these that fly like a cloud, and doves to our windows. - Isaiah 60:1"

Downing says "If these 'clouds' carry the angels of God, then in the tradition of Hebrew parallelism, in which the idea of the first line is carried over into the second line, we have here a comparison between the way in which clouds fly, and doves of course often 'descend' from above to the window below. What we have here, is a clear Biblical precedent..." (THE BIBLE AND FLYING SAUCERS, page 122)

PHILLIP SNATCHED AWAY
A disciple of Jesus Christ named Phillip was also led up or "snatched away" in a similar manner to that which Christ had been taken, following His baptism. This UFO abduction also occurred simultaneously with a water baptism. During this particular encounter with the Spirit, Phillip was taken from one place and deposited in another The New Testament documents this event in the "Acts of the Apostles." We read in Acts chapter 89:39-40; "Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing...But Philip was found at Azotus."

Although recent UFO events like these are very rare, they are no less historically significant. In the more recent UFO cases, people have reported that they have been taken somewhere by a UFO and deposited in an entirely different location from their place of origin.

A DIMENSIONAL DOORWAY
A voice spoke from the heavens. It was God who said, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased." See "The 'Spirit of God' and the 'Opening of the Heavens.'" -Downing suggests a "triple-decker universe" (Page 152). This theme is repeated throughout the HOLY BIBLE See also the stoning of Stephen, (Acts 7.55) the revelation of John and the sacrifice of Abraham.

Maria Spiropulu is a 32-year-old scientist with the Enrico Fermi Institute at the University of Chicago. Recent reports indicate that she is "hot on the trail of extra dimensions." Spiropulu is using new methods to experimentally prove whether our reality is more complicated than was once assumed.

    "'Our understanding of reality -- that is, a world where events happen over time within a three-dimensional space -- may be turned on its head by the year 2005,' scientist Maria Spiropulu said today during the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) Annual Meeting.

    "'We are very close' to a new reality, she said. 'Right now, we imagine space and time as a static question, and we solve equations as a function of space and time. But, what we're learning is that, at the very large scale or the very small scale, space and time are dynamic. What is happening at those scales, we cannot explain. So we have to wonder, do these scales hold some extra dimensions?'"

CONCLUSION:
There are numerous UFO reports on file here at the UFO Resource Center, which describe a chevron, wing-shaped object in aerial flight. Many UFO and alien contacts have reported being taken aboard UFOs and report alien occupants. These recent historic events are no less significant than those relayed with mystical attributes that were chronicled in the HOLY BIBLE. 

[ramseytheii]

Gives new meaning to Biblical literalists

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

you answered your own question, ramseytheii.  but, philip was found at azotus.  he was found in another location.  God is mighty.  if he took moses (so people wouldn't worship his body) and buried it in an unidentified location - then moses is still dead and buried.  why else would michael the archangel have asked God to keep the body from satan?  jude 1:9  one article seems to say that it is because satan would have had the jews want to venerate the body.  to put it in a public location and 'worship' something other than God himself. 
God can do pretty  much as he well pleases.  there is nothing beyond his power.  the only reason we might laugh is that this power is beyond us.  who can truly exist in the heavens without oxygen and water and food and - well, basically everything on this planet needed to sustain life (ie sunlight, exercise, fresh air).  so, if we are very limited in our location in the universe - could that indicate also our limitations spiritually.  YES!

[mad_max2024]

God is mighty. if he took moses (so people wouldn't worship his body) and buried it in an unidentified location - then moses is still dead and buried. why else would michael the archangel have asked God to keep the body from satan? jude 1:9 one article seems to say that it is because satan would have had the jews want to venerate the body. to put it in a public location and 'worship' something other than God himself.

Why didn't he bury all the other 313240234834234341 deities and prophets that exist in the earth then?
Was moses so special?
Maybe he was gay, thus threatening the entire survival of the human race and the disintegration of space-time if worshipped...

[prometheus]

Why didn't he bury all the other 313240234834234341 deities and prophets that exist in the earth then?

Haha.
A few days ago I heard a creative answer. God created ideas of religion in the minds of people so that they would accustomed to the concept of religion. So later on when he would send his son to earth they would be ready to worship him. Otherwise religion would be a brand new and alien thing to them.

[pianowelsh]

Its quite easy to expalin religion biblically. Satan said here eat this fruit and you'll be like god knowing good and evil - they eat it and knew what they did was wrong...God (in Love) prevented them form easting from the tree of eternal life so they didnt have to be permanently separated from God and sent them out. After successive generations sin worked its way deeper and deeper into the conscience and men forgot God (or at leaast most) hence the flood.  Throughout history men have then tried to deny/suppress the existance of God from their minds and have 'done what is right intheir own eyes'. Most are aware that there are certain things which cannot be explained without the existance of a greater being and have sought to worhips God in their own ways. the Israelites in the dessert is a good example. As a consequence we have many religious systems and structure which try to pease God or worship God in various different ways. We even have some sects(polls of thinking) which try to deny God altogether. All stemming from one fruit - disobedience to what God has said in the first place.  Pretty impressive mess eh! but God's still the same (Yesterday today and forever) He doesnt change and run after fads like we do.

[mycrabface]

i voted for yes but i'm not christian.

Okay you believe God exists? Then do you belive that if you do not trust in christ you will be thrown into the lake of fire?

[prometheus]

Throughout history men have then tried to deny/suppress the existance of God from their minds and have 'done what is right intheir own eyes'.

Uuh, in western society for a 1000 years everyone that even brought up the question if god really actually exists or not had a big risk of being burned alive.

Most are aware that there are certain things which cannot be explained without the existance of a greater being...

So what does god expain? Sure, there are some things that cannot be exlain. But if you put god in that gap then god doesn't explain it. It just stops the need for an explenation: "God did it, we humans cannot understand and shouldn't bother'.

So what does god explain? It only adds to the problem. Explaining this universe is one thing. Explaining this universe that was created by one intelligent and powerful entity is much much more difficult.

[pianistimo]

i thought the inquisition was a method to induce belief in catholic doctrine.  now, many churches have done things to gain converts - but many of the original christians (of jesus day - died under nero's persecution around 70 or 71 AD).  they were variously killed by wild beasts, torn apart, etc.  nero thought that killing them would get rid of God once and for all.  but, surprisingly,  a few jews and christians survived and the message of the gospel continued.

the gospel IS the kingdom of God.  not, literalist doctrines about God himself.  we will never know fully how God could dwell with us and yet be God - but He did.  for those that believe by faith - it is said that they will have greater reward.  we did not meet Christ personally, but we meet His Spirit of peace (as with the Spirit descending on Christ like a dove) daily if we pray for it.  this is a difference you see when you have cancer patients or other terminal illness patients that are Christian and they are told their case is terminal - and it's just another day to praise God.  we know that this life is not THE END.   there is more.  delightfully more to await us.  so joy and peace have a huge part of our hearts.

whether a Christian believes the same type of hell as another doesn't matter.  we aren't worried about hell.  why should we?  it is not someplace we want to choose in the first place.  if you are more worried about others (as Christ said to love your neighbor) you first thoughts are LIFE (everywhere).  how to promote life.  The Spirit itself IS LIFE.  it gives a divine peace and joy that cannot be found by science.  although, science is merely finding out the divine plans of creation and is very important for medical and scientific progress.  i don't think Christians are against progress.  they are against anonymony of people who are judged 'not smart enough, not beautiful enough, not rich enough, not genetically altered enough, not perfect...etc etc.  God accepts each of us and what is most beautiful about us is probably what people hate the most.  the uniqueness and the individualness of each person on this earth that is living or ever has lived or ever will live.

this diversity within species is one of the proofs of God's existence.  another would be the daily encouragement that we receive when we believe in God.  you can have the most depressing life - and still be joyful.  or, things can go very well, but you don't take it to your head.  you know that God is in charge and whether things go well or poorly, life can change in an instant.  for Christians - we look for the instant that we will be changed to spirit.  that we will be like Esther.  she was a run-of the mill poor person - and quite average.  once the king found her - she became very important.  a QUEEN to him.  he gave her the 'treatment' and the various oils and perfumes are indicative of God's holy Spirit.  it smells beautiful (like myrrh).  i think God appreciates fineness.  perfection.  making things pure and white.  making us into His image.  we can't be this on our own - we need His Holy Spirit to wash us clean and make us white as a dove.  and, to have a sense of purpose in being here on this earth. 

He says - 'don't hide your light under a bushel.'  so, as Christians - we are not concerned about what will happen to us according to temporary 'situations.'  we are beyond this in Christ.  we can think about someone else even if we are going through 'the worst of times.'  and, in the best of time s- we can also have love for others and concern.  no fear.  not even of death.

[thalbergmad]

the gospel IS the kingdom of God.  

Do you refer to the 4 gospels in the Bible or the ones that were removed and/or did not make it in?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

i thought the inquisition was a method to induce belief in catholic doctrine.  now, many churches have done things to gain converts - but many of the original christians (of jesus day - died under nero's persecution around 70 or 71 AD). 

I quibble, but this is clearly wrong. Nero died in AD68, the so-called  "Year of the Four Emperors". Probably it is best if you don't know how Galba celebrated his accession to the throne

[prometheus]

That Paul en Peter were killed by the Roman empire could be called Christian propaganda.

[thalbergmad]

Christianity is finished.

[pianistimo]

well, i could be off afew years - but the fact that josephus recorded historical information about the persecutions and about the remains of peter and paul.  and, probably confirm BOTH nero's persecution and galba's (although i'm not as familiar with his).

in any case, it is customary for bringers of the gospel to be martyred or persecuted.  it has happened since the times of the prophets - to Jesus Christ - to his disciples ...so therefore i wouldn't be surprised if peter was crucified upside down and paul was hanged - or whatever they say in the historical records.  how they died isn't of utmost importance.  apparently it is to people who think that killing christians makes God dead.  they just await their own judgement. 

i heard that paul avoided cruxifixion by claiming roman citizenship (which he did have) - but peter, not feeling worthy to die as Jesus Christ did, asked the romans to cruxify him upside down.

[pianistimo]

i've been thinking a lot about ramseytheii's suggestion that the Holy Spirit was literally a dove.  in three of the four gospels - it says 'like' a dove.  and, that Christ was the ONLY one who saw the form of the Holy Spirit.  but, everyone around that was being baptized at the same time by John the Baptist -heard the voice out of heaven 'this is My Beloved Son...'  now, this would imply that if the Holy Spirit was a person - it couldn't speak for itself.

i realize i might be in a minority on beliefs about the Holy Spirit not being part of a trinity - but i read in the book of John that it descended 'in the form'  - but it takes many other forms.  in Acts 2:3 it descended as tongues of fire.  in John 7:37-39 Jesus says that the Spirit of God is like 'living waters' and that one can 'drink' from it figuratively.

now, if the Holy Spirit is not a 'man' - then what is it?  I corinthians 2:16 says that the SPIRIT OF GOD (coming from God - as it did 'from' God to Jesus Christ) gave Christ the 'mind' of God.  therefore - when we are baptized - we can have this same 'mind' - being of 'one mind.'  agreeable to the Words of God.  'let this mind be in you - which was also in our Lord Jesus Christ'  or 'for who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?  But, we HAVe the mind of Christ.' (i corinthians 2:16)

now, this is also called God's wisdom (vs. 7) and also a mystery.  sort of like how our spirit and mind work together in this physical life - making us know that we are rulers of the physical creation.  but, the Holy Spirit helps us to see beyond the physical - to spiritual dimensions.

if we 'put on ...the mind of Christ'  we read that it is only He that can mediate for us.  there is no other priest.  they might speak for themselves - but Christ ONLY can speak and mediate for us from God Himself.  there IS NO OTHER PRIEST.  not even in old testament times - did the priest fully absolve sin.  not until Christ died and was ressurrected as our atoning lamb.

Isaiah 11 speaks of His coming:  'and there shall come a rod out of JEsse, and a branch shall grow out of His roots; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and truth, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.  And, shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord; and He shall not judge after the sight of His eyes, neither reporve after the hearing of His ears - but, with righteousness shalle He judge the poor and roprove with equity for the meek of the earth....'

also, another thing i found out today is that in pagan times - the dove was adopted to symbolize a woman coruler.  as with Sophia - the greek goddess of wisdom.  now, in ancient babylon - it went back much further to nimrod and semiramis.  alexander hislop's book 'the two babylons' explains the symbology well.  there were three in one and the wife was also a *** and actually had sex with the son.  and, referring to her as CO-MATRIX or CO-redemptress.  that meant that the wisdom was a fully separate and independent 'goddess' of knowledge or wisdom that should be worshipped in the same way as the son.

if God wanted to use the female gender for Himself in the bible - He would have.  but, He doesn't.  the reason is so that He can carry the analogy to himself marrying Israel (as he was the God and israel was the 'wife') and in the NT Jesus Christ refers to himself as the bridegroom and the church as the bride.  now, if Jesus was also a SHE - then she would be marrying a she - promoting lesbianism.  lesbian relationships are an integral part of the worship of Sophia and also in the feminist movement of wicca (satanism). 

we know - through reading the passages about the holy spirit - that in the greek - the word for Holy Spirit is neutral in gender.  it is referred to as 'it.'  or 'the mind of God.'  therefore - the mystery of the oneness of God is just as the 'mystery' of how a man and wife become 'one.'  they are united in thought.  this is also proven by the fact that the NAMES of God are not proper nouns.  they are I AM.  or JEhovah - (self-existent).  Jesus meant (God with US) and Christos - King or ressurrected one. 

so - if we try to put God into our terms - it doesn't work.   but, in His own terms He refers to himself as God - and the Word.  Christ apparently was 'the Word' in the Old testament.  God would be behind him as the ultimate bearer of responsiblity for what would be said.  in revelations - Christ is King in the millenium.  but AFTer the millenium - then there will be a new heavens and new earth - and God himself will dwell among people.  why?  because God cannot dwell with darkness (sin) - and so when the new heavens and earth are there - there will be no darkness.  (rev 21)

[thalbergmad]

I have never read such a load of rubbish in my life.

A truly amazing post.

Was there a point?

[pianistimo]

the point is that the Holy Spirit is not simply 'a dove.'  or 'a tongue of fire.'  it is ALIVE.  it is the essence of God's mind.  so you cannot bottle it.  God isn't a genie.  much more than that.  He is wisdom.  His words are truth.  and science can only see a little glimmer of the vastness of it.  it is available to us at no cost.  to drink from its waters means to literally drink LIFE.  people wondered about the fountain of youth.  well, look no further.  it's the essence of the Holy Spirit.

perhaps an easier thing to understand is matt 4:4  - when Jesus was tempted by satan and he responded 'it is written, 'man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'

[thalbergmad]

Well, you should have said so in the first place.

You would have saved yourself 500 words and me 5 minutes.

[pianistimo]

but, there are many 'doctrines.'  only one is really true.  which one is it?  i feel that the bible speaks for itself - and contradicts the idea that we need a priest to absolve sin.  to explain this -takes quoting the scriptures that prove it.  did you know there is a scripture that says 'call no man father...'  not many people are aware of it.

matthew 23:9 'and do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.'  now we know that Christ was referring to the scribes and saducees and not people's physical fathers.  of course you're going to call your father - father.  but, a priest?  no.  simply 'priest so and so.'  *if we only have ONE intercessor - the priesthood IS THE SAINTS!

Jesus even went so far as to say 'and do not be called leaders; for One is your leader, that is, Christ.'  whoever is greatest among you shall be your servant.

[thalbergmad]

Is there a yawn icon?

[thalbergmad]

but, there are many 'doctrines.'  only one is really true.  which one is it?  i feel that the bible speaks for itself - and contradicts the idea that we need a priest to absolve sin.  to explain this -takes quoting the scriptures that prove it.  did you know there is a scripture that says 'call no man father...'  not many people are aware of it.

Why don't you just post the entire Bible?

You are gradually doing it bit by bit anyway.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

FYI, Pianistimo, the Wiccan religion has no connection to satanism. This is a common misconception.

[pianistimo]

well, there's a site that will give you scriptures by e-mail.  you can read the bible in a year with it.  i'll put the site in - if anyone wants it.

why the symbology?  always dealing with death?  occult?  witchcraft?

satan is the 'father of darkness.'  so - therefore BLACK.

[thalbergmad]

of course you're going to call your father - father. 

I called mine "pops"

[ronde_des_sylphes]

well, there's a site that will give you scriptures by e-mail.  you can read the bible in a year with it.  i'll put the site in - if anyone wants it.

LMAO! I know. I thought I'd already found it.

[thalbergmad]

well, there's a site that will give you scriptures by e-mail.  you can read the bible in a year with it.  i'll put the site in - if anyone wants it.

Oh please, that would be great.

I will read it when i have finished to Gospel of Judas.

[pianistimo]

very funny

the gospel of judas - as i hear - tries to portray judas as an innocent figure that was told by Jesus to betray him.  there is nothing of the sort mentioned in the other gospels.  the gospel of judas could well be a forgery of somekind from judas himself.  would he be speaking the truth?  no.  he was deceived. 

i watched a pbs documentary on this the other night - and found it interesting.  that the place where he fell on his sword is still a garbage dump today.  Christ said it would have been better if this one hadn't been born.  perhaps he meant that his life was spent on figuring ways to make money.  even off of Christ, and the gospel.  judas was an example of trechery and to sell it for the paltry sum that he did - made him infamous in a bad way and not a good way.  therefore - whatever gospel he wrote (even if he DID write it before he fell on his sword) meant that it was not the gospel of wanting the kingdom of God to flourish.  he betrayed Christ.

[thalbergmad]

Yeh, ronde has a point.

You can read the entire Bible on the following link

https://www.pianostreet.com/index.php

Thal

[thalbergmad]

the gospel of judas could well be a forgery of somekind from judas himself. 

If the Gospel of Judas was written by Judas, i fail to see how it can be a forgery.

It is interesting in that it mentions no crucifixion and no resurrection.

One wonders why it never made it into the Bible.

Thal

[pianistimo]

if one believes the bible on the basis of prophecy only - it is interesting that this very field (the potter's field) was a well known place even in jeremiah's day.  and one, that he mentioned in jer 19:11 'thus says the Lord of Hosts, 'just so shall i break this people and this city, even as one breaks a potter's vessel, which cannot again be repaired, and they will bury in topheth because there is no other place for burial....' 

in jesus day 'it was called 'field of blood.'  an area of trash and waste.  but, what is compared to this in jeremiah is witchcraft.  vs. 13 'and the houses of jerusalem and the houses of the kings of judah will be defiled like the place of topheth, because of all the houses on whose rooftops they burned sacrifices (incense, too) to all the heavenly host (stars) and poured out libations to other gods.'

ps - the manuscript of the book we know as 'judas' is found to be authentically the same period as other writings of the 'codex' that was found in egypt and sold and then stored in a nyc safe deposit box for many years.   but, the words in the book of judas do not prove judas was not evil.  that is where comparative reading proves which of the disciples were TRUE disciples.

as i understand it - judas came to know the gospel.  but, turned away from it again because of greed.  heb. 10: 26 'for if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.'  i think judas 'saw the light'  (Jesus himself) and turned away. 

just so i don't make anyone feel hopless - i think paul mentions a 'thorn in the flesh' (something he contended with over and over) - but for each person it is different and yet the same.  we have things that we do that deny Christ - but we keep repenting.  if we don't give up - i don't think God gives up.  it's only if we blaspheme the Holy Spirit and do not repent.  basically - go to our deaths hating God.  i don't think there is anything anyone could do for a person like this.

[thalbergmad]

Point?

[thalbergmad]

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/tree.html

Lot of children for a virgin.

[pianistimo]

one story says that she was barely 14 (apparently girls of that time were allowed to be engaged at 12 years, 6 mos.) when joseph had the dream that she was of Child by the Holy Spirit.  he was told that he should marry her but not to fulfill the wedding vows until Jesus was born.  so, in effect - he WAS born to a virgin.  otherwise, the bible would not be true.  one of the foundational elements.

now, perpetual virginity is a catholic doctrine.  so is - co-matrix.  it ties in with semiramis (as mentioned in hislops book 'the two babylons.')  semiramis was 'queen of heaven'  or - later 'ishtar.'  mentioned many times in the bible as a false god that was not to be worshipped and adored as a goddess nor a co-matrix with Jesus Christ.  she is not 'god' so she cannot 'grant requests.'  it's falling on dead ears.  she has long been dead.  but, she will probably be among the first to rise at the ressurrection of the dead.

even Christ did not worship his own mother.  'who are my mother and my brothers... those that hear the word of God and do it....'

ps i have no idea what the traditional age of marriage was back then.  but, as it were - they were engaged when she was found 'with child.'

the book of romans says 'all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.'  so, that would include mary.  i'm sure that she must have been a very special person - but not an object of worship then or now excepting pope pius decree to start observing 'the immaculate conception' date of december 8th.  i don't think this date is correct if Christ was celebrated as having been conceived dec 25th by everyone else that was historically much earlier (pope pius was a relatively late pope). 

https://aloha.net/~mikesch/immac.htm

in the companion bible appendix - it makes a case for Christ being born mid-week during the feast of Sukkot.  a fall harvest feast kept by the jews.  Jesus Christ - being a first fruit of mankind.  born in september - or thereabouts.  the shepherds in the fields (not witnessing the intense rainstorms of winter) and also the census being taken when people could actually travel easily.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

  semiramis was 'queen of heaven'  or - later 'ishtar.' 

https://music.msn.com/album/?album=39316322

"Semiramis, Queen of Babylon, conspires with Prince Assur to murder her husband, but instead of marrying her accomplice, turns her affections towards the young warrior Arsace, who is later discovered to be her son. In an attempt to ward off a sword thrust aimed by Assur at Arsace, she herself is killed, to be succeeded by her son, hailed as the avenger of his father's murder. Thalberg's Fantasia reproduces both the beauty of melodic line, a metamorphosis of operatic embellishment, and much of the drama. "

Hehehe.

[thalbergmad]

he was told that he should marry her but not to fulfill the wedding vows until Jesus was born.  so, in effect - he WAS born to a virgin.  otherwise, the bible would not be true.  one of the foundational elements.

The concept of Virgin Birth is not unique to the Bible. This story was a later addition, inserted into the Bible to back up the divinity of Jesus.

So, there was no virgin birth and the Bible is untrue in this respect.

https://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html

[pianistimo]

you would quote 'infidels.org'   you don't believe God is God.  if he was of joseph - he wouldn't have been ressurrected.  he would have died like any ordinary prophet.  but, he didn't die. he was ressurrected.  our very calendar marks the enormous event. 

interesting, that story about semiramis.  guess it all started with OSIRIS and ISIS in egypt.  there are many similarities between the egyptian statues of isis and the 'virgin mary.'  many considerable similarities of doctrine, too.

supposedly there is a black virgin (goddess of earth - sensuality) too:
www.darkstar1.co.uk/chartres.htm

and, the idea of mary being a perpetual virgin dates way before she arrived on the scene:
www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC126.htm

basically it goes back to isis and her baby horus.  she is said to be 'divine' before conception (a goddess) and that is how she gives birth to a 'god.'  and, her deserving of worship is a result of having been a 'firstborn' before Christ himself.  if you think about it - it's blasphemy.

[thalbergmad]

you would quote 'infidels.org'   you don't believe God is God.  if he was of joseph - he wouldn't have been ressurrected.  he would have died like any ordinary prophet.  but, he didn't die. he was ressurrected.  our very calendar marks the enormous event. 

interesting, that story about semiramis.  guess it all started with OSIRIS and ISIS in egypt.  there are many similarities between the egyptian statues of isis and the 'virgin mary.'  many considerable similarities of doctrine, too.

I do believe God is God, but i don't believe Jesus was his son. There is no evidence. He did die and there was no resurrection.

The fact that our calendar marks this non event means nothing.

Indeed the Bible borrows much from other religious writings.

[pianistimo]

if there was no ressurrection - there was no 'great earthquake' when he died - and another one when he was ressurrected.  i will seek to prove to you that there were 'two great earthquakes.  in fact, they were so great that the whole world recognized at that cataclysmic time that he truly was 'the Son of God.'

[thalbergmad]

if there was no ressurrection - there was no 'great earthquake' when he died - and another one when he was ressurrected.  i will seek to prove to you that there were 'two great earthquakes.  in fact, they were so great that the whole world recognized at that cataclysmic time that he truly was 'the Son of God.'

Well, if that is the only proof you have (or do not have), then you truly have absolutely nothing at all.

Neither you or anyone else can be certain when this non-event was supposed to have happened in the first place. Earthquakes are not exactly rare, there was even one in Scotland this week.

Virgin Births and resurrections were afterthoughts sewn into the Bible to portray the divinity of jesus.

In time, i am confident that this myth you hold so dear will be exposed for the fraud that it is.

[pianistimo]

ok.  first we'll start with eyewitness accounts of both jews and romans (which, btw, were hostile sources at the time).
www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
#1 broken roman seal - no one dared back then to break the seal
#2 empty tomb - paul maier says 'if all the evidence is weighed carefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to the canons of historical research, to conclude that the sepulcher of joseph of arimathea, in which Jesus was buried, was actually empty (three days later) - and no shred of evidence has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy, or archeology that would disprove this statement.'
#3 1 1/2 to 2 TON stone removed from tomb.
#4 roman guard goes AWOL - something they would be stripped of their clothing for - and burned by using the clothing as a source for the flames.
#5 grave clothes of Jesus found.
#6 Jesus appearance confirmed by over 500 eyewitnesses - after the ressurrection!  (not even mentioning the people that were resurrected from the dead also - at the same time!)

[pianistimo]

now, if you are interested in extra biblical books - lets start with the book of nicodemus...who is mentioned as coming to help bury the body of Jesus with the mixture of myrrh and aloes (100 lbs worth).

Gospel of Nicodemus (Part I First Greek Form)
starts out mentioning exact words of ananias (who was translating this into greek) and then he translates the words of nicodemus into greek.  why?  ananias had been the father-in-law of caiaphuas, who was high priest the year Jesus was  murdered.  caiaphas was the one who had advised the jews that it was expedient for one man to die on behalf of the people.  ananias was the one who had sent Jesus bound to Caiaphas in john 18:24.

www.newadvent.org/fathers/08071a.htm

now, he is translating the words of nicodemus.  he is a christian convert?  yes!  he was transformed and hoped that God would forgive his sin by translating nicodemus's words and confirming the account of the death and ressurrection of Jesus.  that meant - he was a HOSTILE witness at first - and turned to a believer.  this can be confirmed in acts 9:10 where ananias is now called a 'disciple' and given a vision about laying hands upon saul that he might regain his sight.

so was the roman centurion - who -witnessing how Jesus died - said 'this truly WAs the Son of God.

[pianistimo]

now, in josephus 'antiquities of the jews XV we have mention of the things that were happening during the reigns of pilate and whomever (and the names and dates and places match).
www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-15.htm

but, if you haven't got time to read all that - i'd start with justin martyr (d 163) who mentions the 17th year of tiberius as being august 32 AD to august 33 AD.  this is in 'apologia' PL vi, 383 in sequence.

then tertullian (d 222) 'against the jews,' PL II, col. 614
records that the sun stopped shining in the middle of the day at the crucifixion of Christ.  this is noted in tertullian's 'apologeticum' Bk. 1, ch 21.

also, 'He wrought many wonders that were appropriate to such a death.  Thus, at the time when the sun was in the middle of its orbit, the day was suddenly deprived of its brightness so that those who did not know that this prodigy had been foretold for the death of Christ did not understand the reason for it.  Later they denied that it had happened, but you can find (the record of) this worldwide event stored in your archives.'

a corroborating text comes from a secular historian known as Phlegon who was a freed slave of Hadrian the emperor (117-138 AD) ' in the fourth year of the 202nd olympiad there was an eclipse of the sun which was so remarkable that nothing comparable had ever been seen before.  at the sixth hour of the day (noon), the darkness was such that one could see the stars' (fragmenta historicum graecorum, didot.  paris 1849, vol iii, phlegon, bk 13, ch 14, as cited in js daly's 'the controversy concerning the dates of the birth and death of JEsus Christ')

NB:  this phenomenon would not have been an eclipse caused by the moon, since darkness only occurs over specific areas of the earth in a total eclipse, and does not last very long in any case.  the gospels record that the sun stopped shining for three hours.

[pianistimo]

origen (d 254) in 'contra celsus,' bk 2, n 33, corroborates phelgon's testimony:

'the eclipse which took place at the time of tiberius, during whose reign Christ was crucified, and the GREAT earthquakes of the same time, were noted by phlegon in his books 13 and 24.'

notice the word 'great' - exactly the words of the bible!

[pianistimo]

john malalas (d 578) 'chronographia' PGxcvii, col 351 in sequence:

'in the year 18 of the reign of tiberiums in the 7th month, our Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed by Judas his disciple.  on the 23rd of March, the third day of the moon, the fifth day of the week at the fifth hour of the night (11 pm) He was led before caiphas...on the following day he was taken to pilate...He was crucified on the fourteenth day of the moon..at that time the sun was bereft of its light and darkness covered the whole earth.'

paul the deacon
miscellaneous history, PL xcv, col 858-864
'in the twelfth year of the reign of tiberius, at fidenae, an amphitheater collapsed burying 20,000 people.  seven years later, at the time when our Lord was sufferring his Passion, there was an immense earthquake.  rocks were split in the mountains.  on the same day, the sun was darkened from the 6th to the 9th hour.  darkness covered the whole of the earth and the stars appeared.'

julias africanus
extant fragments, PGx, col 90

' in the year ... that is 33 of Christ, namely the first year of the 203rd olympiad, at the moment when Christ suffered his Passion horrific darkness covered the world and rocks were broken by an earthquake.'

[pianistimo]

now, what i am attempting to do is look at the worldwide earthquake index and confirm two large earthquakes within 3 1/2 days of each other in the region and possibly affecting the ocean (causing tsunamis). 

it is interesting that just in 2006 - we've had a series of major earthquakes all over the world.  i guess that God repeats himself with patterns.  there is a great earthquake mentioned in revelations before Jesus Christ appears the second time.

[cmg]

phlegon

That's a longstanding typo that reached critical attention just after the invention of Gutenberg's press.  "Phlegon" should read "Phlegm."

Thought you should know.

[cmg]

Thus, at the time when the sun was in the middle of its orbit

Excuse me for this interruption, but the sun does not "orbit."  It stands still.  Fixed.  We orbit the sun.  Well, some of us.

[pianistimo]

remember the dates we're talking about.  people didn't know then what we do today.  as you already know.  anyways, good point.  you're probably one of the few who will be able to decipher my messages.

basically, as i see it - musical scholarship is similar to biblical scholarship.  you go to the primary sources first - and then the sources closest to them - and so on.  until you get down to the modern age - where there is a lot of myth combined with truth.  so - to weed this out - to go to the sources means to read abit about the civilization back then.  i cannot say i am a biblical scholar - but i bleed works for relevant tidbits.  ie about the ressurrection and about the 'great' earthquakes.

what sparked a little interest in my quirky brain - was that the first earthquake of some magnitude happened before Christ's death - and killed 20,000 in a colloseum.  now, if that was a smaller earthquake than the one at his death and ressurrection (which i believe was the case) - we should witness the rebuilt colloseum demolished again.  or, several entirely different or new ones - flattened.  probably some cracks or changes to the geography.

i was in the earthquake in california that cracked the freeway - where a motorcyclist fell to his death.  i saw the gaping end of the freeway going out into nothingness.  the magnitude of this sort of disaster is just unreal.  also, i happened to be at a mtna convention in long beach a few years earlier and the chandaliers directly above me started rattling.  i moved over a few seats.  then, thinking about getting back on the freeway - i quickly went down the stairs to the concrete garage.  probably not the best place to go.  everyone else stayed.  probably don't have as much faith as i should - but i just wanted to get the heck out of there.  i didn't want to be stopped on one side of the mountain - and unable to get back to the high desert.