Being a musician is financially IMPOSSIBLE

[thalberg]

The life of a musician: 

STARTUP EXPENSES:

Childhood piano lessons - parents pay
Bachelors degree: about 100K
Masters degree: about 50K
Doctorate: about 100K
Cost of a piano commensurate with one's abilities: 50K

TOTAL STARTUP EXPENSE:  300K (plus you're near 30 when you get out of school)

EARNINGS:

Starting salary of most professor jobs: 30 to 40K per year

Typically clear 2100/month after taxes

Payment on a 300K loan: about 2300/month for 30 years

Being a musician is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!

Discuss.....

[spaciiey]

I disagree. Its possible. Its just rare to be able to make a decent living from it. Rare doesn't mean impossible.

[Bob]

You could get a scholarship or something during college to reduce those costs too.  It can't be impossible if people are doing it.  I do wonder how many other people attempted it compared to the amount of jobs though.

[thalberg]

By the way, the scenario I painted in does not reflect my own personal situation.  I was just talking theoretically because a friend and I were talking about this.  If compare it with, for example, medical school which has similar startup expenses but the person who graduates ends up making 190,000 per year.

You are correct, though, scholarships and other aid does exist.  My new opinion, though, is that if you're not good enough to get a full scholarship, don't go to music school 'cause you'll never get a good job.

[Bob]

lol...  Good point there.

[richard black]

Why do you need all those qualifications to be a musician? I earn most of my living as a muso, I could certainly earn a whole living if I chose to (as things stand I choose to follow a sideline which is fun, convenient and well paid, meaning I get to do a few more wacky and ill-/unpaid musical gigs), and no one has ever asked me about musical qualifications, which is just as well as I haven't any. I even got on the staff at a university, through the back door but perfectly legitimately. The sum total of private training (of the formal, i.e. paid-for, variety) I've had since the age of 18 is probably less than Ł2000.

[mattgreenecomposer]

I don't know what school your going too but it sounds like the Royal college of music or something!? $$$$
I see your point though thalberg, you have to work really hard for crap pay there is no doubt about that.

[amelialw]

a bachelors degree does not 100k, it only costs 18k here. That's an absurd amount.
30k-40k does not apply to everywhere, it depends where. And there are so many other options. Performing, teaching, accompaniment....
Besides all of that why must you get your masters and doctorate. If you have a music teacher who has finished all of that, can teach you everything, why spend so much more. My own piano teacher finished many diplomas and degrees. I haven't even gone into music school to start my B.A and i'm already learning things that you would learn in that progress.
Seriously, do you refer that costs to some kind of Royal music school?

[iumonito]

That's beside the point.  The number and nature of the jobs available certainly is a good reason not to invest in an extended music education.

On the other hand, the personal growth involved makes it all the worthwhile.  Think of it as investment in happiness.

BTW, I got up to a masters and paid nearly $0 for my music training.  I now work as a lawyer for the same reasons described above.  I did pay some money for my legal training, that as an investment, that's a no brainer.

You can make a living as a musician, but it is much easier to make a living as a plumber.  Just as decent, but easier.

[thalberg]

a bachelors degree does not 100k, it only costs 18k here. That's an absurd amount.

18K for a bachelors degree?  That's 4500 a year for four years.  2250 per semester.  And that's if you don't eat, drive, or have a place to live.  I have never seen a school with tuition at 4500 a year.

At the conservatory I went to, tuition was 20,000 a year (it's gone up though, so now it's more).  Rent was 6,000 a year (rent has gone up, too).  Then there's food, utilities, car, etc.  So saying 100K was actually conservative.

But like I said, the above scenario does not reflect my situation specifically (I did my undergrad at a cheaper place and got a little scholarship for grad). 

30k-40k does not apply to everywhere, it depends where. And there are so many other options. Performing, teaching, accompaniment....

Yes absolutely.  I was just going by the salaries of the friends I have with doctorates who got college positions.  So it only applies to...hmm....5 schools that I know for sure.  And it's not counting the two friends with doctorates who have no job at all.

Accompanists make 25k per year if they're lucky.  Write to me when you get paid for performing. (And I don't mean weddings.)  Teaching pays okay, more if you're good, less if you're average.

Besides all of that why must you get your masters and doctorate.

Now you're just agreeing with me.  My feeling is no one should ever get a masters and doctorate unless you have a full ride scholarship with a stipend.  Because you'll never pay back the debt on your salary, and if you're not good enough to earn a full ride, you won't get a job in the first place.

If you have a music teacher who has finished all of that, can teach you everything, why spend so much more.

Ahem.....so you're saying it's not necessary to earn advanced degrees because there are people around who already have them?  Well, any excuse you can find for not getting an advanced degree is fine by me.  I don't recommennd it.  Unless you get a full ride scholarship, of course.

My own piano teacher finished many diplomas and degrees. I haven't even gone into music school to start my B.A and i'm already learning things that you would learn in that progress.
Seriously, do you refer that costs to some kind of Royal music school?

Not Royal.  Just check out tuition at some regular, normal conservatories like Peabody or New England Conservatory, or Cleveland Institute of Music.  Just normal conservatories.  Nothing Royal about them.

[prongated]

18K for a bachelors degree?  That's 4500 a year for four years.  2250 per semester.  And that's if you don't eat, drive, or have a place to live.  I have never seen a school with tuition at 4500 a year.

...in Australia, tuition fee (for permanent residents and citizens) is about AU$5000 per year. You can 'borrow' that amount from the government, which you will pay back gradually once you earn above a certain sum of money.

Not Royal.  Just check out tuition at some regular, normal conservatories like Peabody or New England Conservatory, or Cleveland Institute of Music.  Just normal conservatories.  Nothing Royal about them.

...Peabody and Cleveland are 'normal' conservatories??

...but yeah, if you want to go very far in music (degree-wise), you need a lot of support...

[nyonyo]

Let's say you take home about $2K per month. In the evening a person with PhD in piano performance  can  easily charge $60/hour or more. If you teach 3 students on week day and 5 students on Saturday,  you have about 20 students. With 20 students, you should get additonal income of close to $5000 a month. Please note: many piano teachers pay little tax or not at all since they have paid the income from the University. Therefore, you can easily bring home $7,000.

I know one PhD from DePaul University who plays and teaches really well but he does not have enough monies. The reason of unsuccessful financial life is that he does not conduct himself professionally, for example :
1. Does not come to lesson on time.
2. Keep changing schedule. etc etc etc.

Yet there is one piano teacher who only has bachelor in Piano Pedagogy, but has a very very very succesful. Why?

1. He teaches really well.
2. Creates a very professional look studios.
3. Choose only talented students to make him looks successful.

He really knows how to market himself..

Thanks God that I do not need to deal with this problem. Even when I was teaching, I think I made more than $2000 per month, yet I do not even have any music degree. That is why it is baffelling if a PhD cannot make enough monies.

RS

[nyonyo]

By the way, did you do this calculation before you went for all those degrees?

[thalberg]

Yes, actually I did.  But  I proceeded because at the age of 17, I was not so concerned with money and also because I found ways to avoid debt.  Still, I wish I could go back and just get a different degree.

Now that I am 30, I think in more practical ways and suddenly money matters more to me.  Also, I find myself resenting the fact that none of the best pianists I know can afford a decent piano.

[nyonyo]

You are correct!!!   Many decent pianist cannot afford decent piano.

You need to change your approach of making monies.
Teach Asian kids, they are generally pretty talented and practice hard.
In addition, their parents make them to join piano competition.
If you place many of your kids in piano competitions, you will become famous in the Asian community and you can make better monies so that you can buy a Steinway.

RS

[amelialw]

that's not true, you can be well-known anywhere. But to think of it, my teacher is one of the well-known pianists and teachers and all of her students are asian kids... and considereing the fact that she selects her students very carefully

[thalberg]

If you are online, please notice that I sent you a private message---asking if you would like to buy my nearly new Boston GP 163.  It's in perfect condition!  Not a scratch!  Please read your message.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is not financially impossible otherwise there would be none of us! First of all you must realise what you are using your expensive degree for. Is it so you can be a professor or teacher at a school and be paid a professional teachers salary? If so there is a constant income for you and thus you should have enough money to live and do as much any other job offers.

Music is a very flexible and multi directional disipline. There is a lot of money to be made in education. We live in a technology/information age. Infomation is money. So when you teach you must give something people did not know they needed, that is how you sell your unique teaching product.

The business of teaching individual students might not interest you, but that is a foolish thing to forgoe if you are a musician unless you have jam packed concert schedules. The real money is in concerting, you can make a lot of money this way and become very rich very fast if your concerts are managed well and sold well. You see the management of concerts is a skill in itself.

You can be the next Horowitz it will mean nothing if you have no one to help you promote yourself and sell the tickets for you. It is a cut throat business that is why so many fail, not because they can't play music, just because they get eaten up by all the work needed to be sucessful selling concerts.

Anyway.... pro muso life is hard if you are self employed, i wouldn't recommend it, it is harder than most work in many ways.

[Kassaa]

Randomly my Bachelors Degree will be around 7000$ (6000 euro), tuition is 1500 euro a year here in the Netherlands.

[nyonyo]

If by now he is still not a concertize pianist, he may better forget about selling concert ticket. He just needs to do his morning job in a college and teach privately in the evening. I think this is a more realistic approach.

RS

[nyonyo]

I concur that one can be well-known anywhere.
Your teacher is a very smart individual, he or she knows where to concentrate his or her effort in milking monies. When we attend kid piano competitions, most of them are Asians. Asian kids in general are very easy to teach. They are very obedient and decently talented in playing piano. I am not saying this for Asian Indians. For any reason, it seems Indians whom I used to teach did not have finger dexterity as Chinese, Korean, Japanese. The Asian Indians are also very smart and easy to teach, just they may physically not build to play piano well. Financially, Asian Indian kids should have no problem. Their parents are successful professional.

Bottom line, if you want to make good monies from teaching, you need to select your students well. Otherwise, people will think that you do not know how to teach. That is why Julliard auditions its prospective students. Otherwise, how good a teacher cannot get a great result if the raw material is not good.

Quoted:
"that's not true, you can be well-known anywhere. But to think of it, my teacher is one of the well-known pianists and teachers and all of her students are asian kids...  and considereing the fact that she selects her students very carefully"

[joust86]

My first piano teacher charged twenty-five dollars a lesson.  He was generally paid in cash by all of his students, avoiding income tax.  He taught from early morning (around 9:00 AM) to around 8:00 PM every day, from Monday to Saturday.  Lessons were around forty-five minutes, plus he even drove to his students' house.  This guy went to Julliard and when I asked him how it was, he described it as "silly".  It just goes to show, you can go to Julliard, and still not be some "big shot" musicologist.

[amelialw]

Your teacher is a very smart individual, he or she knows where to concentrate his or her effort in milking monies.
My teacher does not teach piano to make money. She selects her students carefully because she is well-known so her students have to perform well. My teacher teaches because she loves her students and she wants us to excel for out own good, not for her's.

[jlh]

Randomly my Bachelors Degree will be around 7000$ (6000 euro), tuition is 1500 euro a year here in the Netherlands.

I went to an out of state school, so my Bachelors Degree cost me about $50,000 in tuition, give or take a few grand.  That's not what I personally paid, as I had scholarships and such, but I ended up racking up some student loans in addition to them.

[ramseytheii]

Here's an interesting post from a long time ago, scroll down to robert_henry:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2071.0.html

Talks about all the different ways you can earn money in the biz, and also crunches some numbers.  Not so pessimistic like the lead post here.

Walter Ramsey

[nyonyo]

My teacher does not teach piano to make money. She selects her students carefully because she is well-known so her students have to perform well. My teacher teaches because she loves her students and she wants us to excel for out own good, not for her's.

It is virtually impossible to discern whether your teacher's motivation is for money or glory. One indication to find out if she teaches not for money is to know her tuition pattern. Has she ever increased her tuition? If she really loves her students and likes to teach, she does not care about the money aspect. Therefore, she most likely never increases her tuition. Is she strict with time? Teachers who are in the industry to make monies, they will make sure that they will give you even one second of extra time, because TIME is MONEY.

In case, she is really not in the industry to make monies, she may just like to get the glory of being known to be an excellent teacher who produces excellent student. Like what you said she chooses her students, my assumption is that she auditions those students. If it is the case, this is the sign that she loves glory. This is the easiest way to harvest good students. Could she produce good students from scratch? From what you told me,  she  must be a good teacher who may not care about monies but she is definitely love the glory, for she chooses students who have prospect....

RS

[amelialw]

It is virtually impossible to discern whether your teacher's motivation is for money or glory. One indication to find out if she teaches not for money is to know her tuition pattern. Has she ever increased her tuition? If she really loves her students and likes to teach, she does not care about the money aspect. Therefore, she most likely never increases her tuition. Is she strict with time? Teachers who are in the industry to make monies, they will make sure that they will give you even one second of extra time, because TIME is MONEY.

In case, she is really not in the industry to make monies, she may just like to get the glory of being known to be an excellent teacher who produces excellent student. Like what you said she chooses her students, my assumption is that she auditions those students. If it is the case, this is the sign that she loves glory. This is the easiest way to harvest good students. Could she produce good students from scratch? From what you told me,  she  must be a good teacher who may not care about monies but she is definitely love the glory, for she chooses students who have prospect....

What do you mean it's impossible to know, she knows that my parents aren't even working so she cuts my fees. I know my teacher and she is the closest friend I have here. How dare you suggest that she is teaching for money or fame just like my uncle did. My teacher has not increased her fees nor is she strict with time, if she goes beyond the time limit, she does'nt charge for extra time.

She does not do it for the glory!!!! She does not love it. Any world class teacher would be expected to have excellent students. She auditioned me too...She has alot of students that she started teaching from scratch only in that case she interviewed the students and their parents. All her students that she have produced from scratch or started teaching later are all excellent students.

[nyonyo]

You must be VERY VERY Special to her then.....
Does she give the same treatment to other kids? How does she find out about your financial situation at the beginning of your relationship. I think it is not easy to find other people financial situation. I believe that you must have caught her intention from your playing and she was willing to give you a special treatment to you because you are so promising to her. Am I not correct???

I just do not believe for a busy piano teacher to give a so so pianist (average ability) a discount. She must have seen something special in you.

I am glad that you found somebody who can nurture your talent. But don't be so naive in life! You are too young to know all of these things, but you'd better learn about these kinds of thing early enough so nobody will take advantage of you. Trust me on this!!

By the way, could you share your uncle story? It is interesting to hear.

RS

[amelialw]

trust me...i'm not too young to be ignorant of all these things, I am 20...

the reason why my teacher made the effort to open up to me is that when I 1st started under her I was struggling so much, piano wise as well as emotional wise. My teacher saw that there was no other way but to fix my problem but for me to trust her and for her to trust me.

When I asked her about all of this about a year back, she said she did see something very special in me that she did'nt see in any other student before when I played Fur Elise. She said she saw the passion flowing out from me and she could really feel the music.

She has given a few other students the privelage, she has cut other students fees before knowing their financial situation. Some of the students don't want it themselves but she said i'm the most special to her...anyway. She does not give me the special treatment because i'm promising to her, it's actually because i'm really good with kids and her little girl loves me so much so somehow I got really close to her.

She said I deserve what she has done for me anyway because she said she has seen a vast amount of improvement.

I'm am not being naive. My teacher is a christian so I am, that helps all the more...and I know what is going on!

[amelialw]

hmm...about my uncle.
When I was a little girl, my relatives moved to canada. I have one uncle that I especially loved because he learnt how to play the piano really well. At the time, I always anticipated his visits about 2 or 3 times a year. I loved all the goodies he would bring but most of all just sitting and listening to him play the piano.
When I was about 13 or so, I knew what I wanted, I wanted to be able to play all those pieces he played. So he took my mom and I down to a music store that he knew well and helped me select all the books. Once I got home, I sat down with my uncle and started playing through all the books. I took a few of them to my piano teacher and she said most of them were too hard for me anyway and said to forget about it. So I never took those books to her again.
My uncle always told me that my cousins had a really good piano teacher over here who was a singapore concert pianist and teacher so I wanted to come here.
When I was 16 and a half, the decision was finally made and I moved here with my mom, dad and little brother.
I sat in for my 11 year old cousins class and I liked the way her lesson went so I decided to carry on with lessons under her teacher.
I always thought my uncle was supportive of my music education but a few times when I was 17/18 he decided he knew what was best for me.
Once especially, one moment that I will never ever forget, he came to my home. He then called me over and asked me to sit down by him with my mom and dad. he then demanded to know what my mom and dad wanted me to do in the future. My mom and dad said they would simply leave it to my piano teacher as she knew what was best for me. He then said he was the one who knew what was the best for me and demanded that I stop all this nonesonse and told me parents to cut of my music lessons. My mom said she would'nt do such a thing and I told my uncle that music is my life, that my piano teacher meant the best for me.
My uncle said it was all junk, he said my piano teacher only cared about the money and fame and I told him I wasn't gonna listen to him anymore. He said he was dissapointed and that he wanted my to go to college and he left.
Just 2 months back, my teacher said she could sense something had gone wrong. I told her and she flared up about it, not to me but she was just mad about what my uncle had said and she thought he was supportive of me too. She said there was no other choice simply but to just block out or forget about comments like this she said that she knows that I know what I want and she said not to let things get in my way.

Since then, my lessons have been going really well, nothing has happened like it used to simply because I did what was advised and now I know all the more that I've never wanted more this... to become a musician!

[richard black]

Er, isn't it possible for teachers to be motivated by money _and_ dedication to the job as such? My wife's a teacher and I know for sure she's motivated by both.

[nyonyo]

Thank you for sharing your life experience here!!!

Hope you make much much progress in the near future.
I myself have a big goal..I really want to join the amateur piano competition.
I am looking for a good teacher. I will be auditioned on Saturday by this piano teacher.
I really do not know whether he will take me or not. I will try my best.
Audition is actually very good way to know student. Most teacher like I said want monies and glory. It is hard to find a teacher who really wants to help. Many of them will take a look at the students playing and if possible the financial condition to determine whether she or he will be able to realize what they want in us or not. If we are not that talented, it means we need more coaching (more monies for them). Therefore, if the teacher thinks that we cannot afford to pay, he or she will say no. I think it is a fair assessment from the teacher side.

When I see the people who competed in the amateur competition, most of them are not really an amateur, because many of them hold piano performance degree. I think people who were professionally trained should not be allowed to participate in an amateur competition.

RS

[m]

The life of a musician: 

STARTUP EXPENSES:

Childhood piano lessons - parents pay
Bachelors degree: about 100K
Masters degree: about 50K
Doctorate: about 100K
Cost of a piano commensurate with one's abilities: 50K

TOTAL STARTUP EXPENSE:  300K (plus you're near 30 when you get out of school)

 

Let's ommit the fact that in Russia (and in Europe) the education is free.
For my doctorate in US I payed areound $2500, which included $400 out of state tuition a semester x6 semesters and some other miscelanious fees.
All the rest was covered by full scholarship.

[sassafras]

I went to law school and gave up playing  piano in 1975; the money was good but the stress and unhappiness were harrowing. Now I am on disability and play piano 5 hours a day and am happy -- some days I play to improve technique but some days I play just for the sheer joy of music.

My mother was right, do what makes you happy, do not go fot the money!

My income is now $623 month and I only have an electronic keyboard -- my piano  and belongings totally $650,000 went up in smoke in an uninsured housefire in 1995.

Without the piano I was lost in a wilderness of despair and did not even know it. The keyboard has transformed my life and I am now so grateful for those 10 years of ipano lessons that cost first $1 in 1959-1964 and then $2. The University prep department for 2 years ran a tota of $140. I could never afford lessons now, let alone a piano.

[prongated]

Some of the students don't want it themselves but she said i'm the most special to her...

...awwww that's so like, cute ^^

It is virtually impossible to discern whether your teacher's motivation is for money or glory.

I think there are cases where it is obvious what the teacher's motivation is. Mine, for example, charges a fixed fee every semester for 2 x 1 hour lessons per week. For a start, she allocates 1 1/2 hours instead of 1 hour for each lesson. Then there's the extra lessons when competitions or auditions or exams or concerts are coming up and the student's not ready - which is almost always in my case ><

...she's in the hospital recently, during which time some of her students - myself included - were participating in a competition. Knowing that I was going to play something she hadn't heard for a long time, she rang me up from the hospital and atempted to give me lessons on it. All up, we spoke for no less than 4 hours that week...

Whatever her motivation is, it's definitely not money.

All the rest was covered by full scholarship.

...aren't you the lucky, if not deserving, one...

[amelialw]

...she's in the hospital recently, during which time some of her students - myself included - were participating in a competition. Knowing that I was going to play something she hadn't heard for a long time, she rang me up from the hospital and atempted to give me lessons on it. All up, we spoke for no less than 4 hours that week...

Whatever her motivation is, it's definitely not money.

wow, your teacher is really commited!

there was one point when my teacher got really sick too but she still insisted on teaching me.

[gerry]

Hmmm...interesting thread here. I understand the point the writer was trying to make but overall I think the amounts mentioned are gross exagerations (Perhaps the posting should have been titled "becoming a famous musician can be financially challenging".) When I first read the title I immediately zeroed in on the term "musician" - then "being a musician" and had to stop and think about what the really meant--did it mean just being a highly competent instrumental manipulator, did it mean being able to make a living as a musician, or did it mean being a Rubenstein, Horowitz, (insert your idol here). I prefer to think of it as being good enough to reap all the spritual and physical rewards that come as a result of the ability to successfully coax from our instrument a beauty that satisfies us and hopefully others and helps you to purge all the negativity heaped on us by the news and other events of the day. I find it interesting that in all the discussion thread there was no mention of "TALENT". It was as if all it takes to be a "musician" is money (teachers, education, advertising placement and mangement!!) There really has to be that initial fire in your soul and while it can be nurtured by a paid instrumental teacher, it can also be nurtured by others and applied to music, art, or other endeavors. I have to believe that one who has been "burned by the muse" will find a way to become and live a successful life as a musician that doesn't have to involve the hundreds of thousands of $$$'s mentioned.

Gerry B

[amelialw]

yes, gerry is right. There has to be the passion, the fire running so you don't think about the money part at all. Don't take a job because of the money, take if because there is a passion.

[thalberg]

Hmmm...interesting thread here. I understand the point the writer was trying to make but overall I think the amounts mentioned are gross exagerations

If the amounts I mentioned are gross exaggerations, then please look up the tuition amounts for the Peabody Conservatory, the Cleveland Institute of Music,  New England Conservatory, the Manhattan School of Music, and any other private conservatory.

Then you will see the amounts I mentioned were actually conservative and outdated, because now they would be more.

I am aware one can find other options, and I am also aware that people do indeed survivie as musicians

BUT---------try this litmus test. 

I challenge you to find me five pianists with doctorates in music who own a Steinway B or D. 

I bet you can't..... (If you don't know five pianists with doctorates, then this thread really doesn't apply to you and you're only speculating)

I'll tell you at least five pianists I know with doctorates (can't give their names, wouldn't be  polite)

Pianist 1.   Never owned a grand piano in his life.  Taught at several colleges.
Pianist 2.  100k in debt, plays a piano his parents owned when he was a child.  No college job yet.  Very broke.
Pianist 3  In debt (don't know how much)  Part time college job.  Hard to make ends meet, has a small Yamaha grand won in a competition
Pianist 4.  No piano at all.  Practices at the college where she teaches
Pianist 5.  No piano at all.  Practices at the college where he teaches.  Plays 20 solo recitals a year.
Pianist 6.  Plays a Steinway B his parents bought him when he was 9
Pianist 7.  Rich parents.  Part time college job.  Steinway M bought with inheritance.

Well, that's more than five.

My point was.....which is why this is in the instrument thread......that the people who can play the nice pianos can't afford them, and the people who can afford them can seldom play them.

[amelialw]

that's sad...that many pianists can't afford pianos that they've wanted.
Sometimes, it rounds  down to the teacher that has taught you as well...my teacher is already well known so as her student, she's in a way handing things down to me bit by bit to make the road much easier for me and already telling others that i'm her student.

[amelialw]

I'm glad she's doing that too...otherwise, i'll feel rather lost by now.

It's not easy being a musician

[zheer]

. Even when I was teaching, I think I made more than $2000 per month, yet I do not even have any music degree. That is why it is baffelling if a PhD cannot make enough monies.

  Good for you.

[nasalstein]

why do pianists want, or need  doctorates in the first place?
i dont remember liszt, debbusy, rachmaninoff had one......
are there things practically and musically worthwhile in getting doctorates?
or it is mostly to add some glow to your resume...

[nyonyo]

If I were those who have doctorate degree and still cannot afford to have a grand piano, I would have killed myself!!!!!

Many of these doctorates are  BIG dreamers! Their piano playing is just OK (not bad, but not exceptional). I know many many of these dreamers teaching in the same music school with me 15 years ago. They got paid exactly the same like what I got paid. I did not even have bachelor in piano performance or any music degree. I just know how to play piano and more importantly I know how to deal with students.

Zheer,
By the way, I just taught piano part time when I earned 2K. I do not see any reason people cannot make good monies from teaching piano.

[amelialw]

yes exactly, you don't even need a doctorate...quite many people have doctarates but there are people who are way better than them still. In the end everything rounds down to yourself.

[nasalstein]

well, please dont get me wrong, i am not against those who got doctorates.
being ignorant about the system, i wanted to know whats the practical merit of getting them(doctorates, etc).
for example, are there courses which is excluded from non-doctorates at schools??

[thalberg]

well, please dont get me wrong, i am not against those who got doctorates.
being ignorant about the system, i wanted to know whats the practical merit of getting them(doctorates, etc).
for example, are there courses which is excluded from non-doctorates at schools??

Though it's a stupid requirement, you need a doctorate to teach at a college in most cases.  Look at the job listings for colleges.  Most of them say "doctorate required."  The only reason I got a doctorate was to teach in a college setting.  This is a recent trend.  Musicians of previous generations were not expected to have doctorates.  Schoenberg, for instance, thought that music degrees were stupid, and that being a musician was earned with blood, not with credits and diplomas.

There is no practical advantage to getting a doctorate--no courses are excluded from non-doctoral students.  You can learn EVERYTHING you need to know outside of a doctoral program.  Personally , I think performance doctorates are stupid and I want my money back.  And my time and energy back, too.

However, the absolute best musicians often avoid doctoral programs because the academics get in the way of practicing. 

[thalberg]

Many of these doctorates are  BIG dreamers! Their piano playing is just OK (not bad, but not exceptional). I know many many of these dreamers teaching in the same music school with me 15 years ago. They got paid exactly the same like what I got paid. I did not even have bachelor in piano performance or any music degree. I just know how to play piano and more importantly I know how to deal with students.

Zheer,
By the way, I just taught piano part time when I earned 2K. I do not see any reason people cannot make good monies from teaching piano.

If the doctorates you know do not play well, then you do not know doctorates from good schools.  I would love to send you recordings of my collegues, but I do not have their permission.  Have you ever met a doctoral student from a first-rate conservatory?  More than big dreamers.  Excellent players. 

[nyonyo]

I did hear some PhD who impressed me, at least playing wise.

I just cannot understand why they cannot make monies. Are they just busy practicing to achieve unreacheable goal? If by the time they finished their PhD, they have not won any competition yet. They'd better concentrate their time to teach and make monies.

If I could make pretty good monies working partime and without piano degree, those who have PhD should not have any problem. Unless, they are not personable and weird. Are there many weird PhD?? The answer, most probably, is yes....I think this is the problem. They cannot deal with regular human being...

RS

[ramseytheii]

I did hear some PhD who impressed me, at least playing wise.

I just cannot understand why they cannot make monies. Are they just busy practicing to achieve unreacheable goal? If by the time they finished their PhD, they have not won any competition yet. They'd better concentrate their time to teach and make monies.

If I could make pretty good monies working partime and without piano degree, those who have PhD should not have any problem. Unless, they are not personable and weird. Are there many weird PhD?? The answer, most probably, is yes....I think this is the problem. They cannot deal with regular human being...

RS

I don't think your last point is accurate, because I have met many professors of all ages (all ages available to become a professor) who were to put it one way, socially deficient, but still made a living.  There's room for everybody in this world.

I know some musicians who are very talented, but perhaps believe themselves to be more talented than they are.  They want to be above the fray, but might exist more comfortably in a group where people can share their strengths and weaknesses.  Pride prevents these people from advancing, in my opinion.  For instance, they won't try to go anywhere where they have a chance to be denied: they make a living off working at the bottom of the totem pole, when they have the talent to be higher, but can't stand rejection, so don't try.  I know many musicians like this.

We look at those on the concert circuit who became stars and forget that it was not always like that for them.  One person I can think of especially, a violin prodigy, whom I knew, who played in the most raucous places before she became known.  She played virtuoso show-pieces in parties where the only people that could hear her were standing five feet away, and she often warmed up for these in the bathroom.   She played on D-list TV shows, at weddings, at funerals, at community events, at all the places so many musicians - who hardly play anywhere - are too proud to play.  She wasn't too proud for that, and received her rewards in the end.

I always think of the noble description of Wagner, by Liszt, who was wronged so many times by Wagner one cannot even count.  He said something to the effect that Wagner waited for the glory he felt due him for decades, and when it finally came to him, he was overwhelmed by it.  Well, the last part doesn't relate, but Wagner was certainly not too proud to be ambitious and fail.

Walter Ramsey