Alarm - Amerika Going to the Fascists

[thalbergmad]

and, as mentioned before - don't think you will be able to freely fish or do anything without being watched and quota'd. 

When Jesus returns, he will kill the fishing industry.

He will catch one and turn it into 5,000.

Everyone else, will be out of business.

I bet you have not thought of this.

Thal

[ahinton]

let's not talk about women and lesbianism - which is a main tenent of the new world religion (or lack of it).  'promiscuities' and 'misconceptions' are two of her other books that are supposedly a 'must read.' 

i don't really care about those 'must read's.'  i can think for myself.

But your thoughts on these subjects seem to me to be worlds away from Christan human compassion and far closer to the anti-homosexuality stance that you have aired previously.

did you know that this clash with the world's government and Jesus Christ's own government is prophecied?  that is because the systems are corrupt on earth.  everywhere - there is corruption.  what is truth.  God's word is truth.  enjoy the ride for the next few years - but just know - christians will be ressurrected. 

And everyone else, including devout Muslims, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and the rest of the religious world will be condemned along with the all the world's agnostics and atheists? Of course there is ample corruption on earth; I'd be the last person to deny that. That said, I cannot help but find your prioritising of Christians above all other humans to be something of a corruption in itself; Iam quite certain that you are not naturally of an arrogant disposition, Susan, but you sadly do have quite a tendency to sound as though you are when you write like this.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

fighting terrorism and fires is a good analogy.  i realize that the choice is 'do nothing' or 'do something.'  the next president i suppose will choose the former.  that is why i think they will be a sort of shadow for what is behind them or in front. 

the power of the EU is banking right now.  it just used the central bank in brussels to bail out nationwide banking structures that were on the verge of collapse.  at least that's what i read in reuter's. 

now - if power isn't banking first - what is it.  next will be established guidelines for this and that. 

alistair, i happen to believe that if satan is in charge of this world's affairs - then it goes to show that is the reason why none of God's laws are held to be a standard.  the basis of 'common law' once in england.  if anything goes - then there is no standard.  if a male and male can adopt children - which was done in droves recently in pa under the auspices of 'human rights' - how are children ever going to even remember, let alone know - what a nuclear family IS?  what gives society a backbone and structure?  family!

i'm not saying every person has to have a family - but i'm saying that telling children that live with a male/male partnership that everything is normal isn't exactly true.  what if the child is not cared for as it's own genetic or potential adoptive mother would care?  what if it is even abused (because of the known lower tolerance level in males for high pitched children's voices).

[ahinton]

HAHAHA, you gotta keep this up, i have just done my pants with laughter.

You really shouldn't laugh through your pants, Thal - especially if, after you've washed them, you have no one available to iron them...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

let's see who is laughing tommorrow.  i suppose that your life savings are safe?  or whatever young people call next month's paycheck.

What life savings? What life? What savings? What paycheck?

counterpoint - we don't owe our government taxes now - because our government owes other countries.  we are basically paying our taxes to support whomever is supporting the government.  and, that is fast becoming the CENTRAL BANK.

Yes, that's largely correct, Susan, but America is no exception in this; almost every country in the world is hopelessly indebted to almost every other so that, if every nation chose to call in its debts at the same time, the entire world economy would collapse, possibly irretrievably. Where would any sense of "world government" be then?

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

if a male and male can adopt children - which was done in droves recently in pa under the auspices of 'human rights' - how are children ever going to even remember, let alone know - what a nuclear family IS?  what gives society a backbone and structure?  family!

Nonsense.  "Family" is most often the caldron of psychopathology.

Now, see, ahinton, she's on that slippery slope again.  Do be wary! I leave her in your very able hands.  


Adieu.  

[ahinton]

I ain't got any, i have spent the lot on scores and whores.

Thal

You ain't never bought no scores from me yet, Thal! Can't comment on the whores bit, though - that's outside my areas both of jurisdiction and personal interest...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

cmg, as with alistair's comment about terrorism and fire - i have to agree on family and psychopathy.  but, then again - that is because there is no such thing as a 'normal family' with extended grandparents except perhaps in pa.  usually people live with no supports because ties are strained or they live too far away.  this lack of support makes people crazy occasionally from the stress of 24/7 care.  i think that families used to have wayy more structure.

[cmg]

Remember, pianistimo, "as the twig is bent, the tree's inclined."

And most famllies bend that little twig until it's inclined to commit felonies -- or worse, to grow up Republican and vote for George Bush!

[ahinton]

two very bad boys.

Who are?

i am not sure what to make of the 'lesbian bed mite.'

Er, no, I can see why that would be...

i happen to think that the world would be a much better place if we all just went back to biblical precepts.

Oh, boy, don't we all know it!

i think they are simple but workable.  like space.  it doesn't have as much complexity and chaos as we think.  actually - quite ordered and precise and timely.  there's a calmness to it - because mankind hasn't wrecked it yet.  things follow a natural order.

Susan, has it not ever occurred to you that we cannot ever go "back" to anything?

if people for one thing - stopped spying on each other and minded their own business - that would be a huge bonus.

a one world system demands spies all the time keeping track of other people.  what for?  a time waster!

I cannot disagree with you there!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

well, cmg - you didn't say grow up christian.  i would think from your standpoint - that would be the sin of all sins. 

[ahinton]

it may confound you, cmg, that i would never seek to be president in the first place

Relieve rather than confound, I suspect...

(or wear extremely high heels which are bad for women's backs and should never have been invented).

And would make many women fall flat on their faces - but what on earth's that got to do with anything here?

would you like not only being ticketed by the state police on your driving - but the EU on what you say on the phone?

I live in the EU; I'm not being phone-tapped yet.

if you think president bush is bad - wait until people are met with police who merely knock them off or send them to reforming camps to work as food producers.  i suppose that it still sounds sci-fi - but it's not that far off.  the EU is really into making profits on these 'punitive' things.

Utter rubbish. Anyway, may I throw this back at your US in the following way?
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/nyregion/17musicologist.html?ref=arts

how about if you got married and wanted more than 2 children?  reforms will be typically un-christian.  we are used to holding land.  do you think that will be a major right?  the EU wants all free borders in the 10 newest nations before Christmas of this year.  for travel to be available for anyone to enter a country (without it's own border police deciding who enters).  bad bad idea.

To begin with, the Chinese have had legislative restrictions on childbirth for some tme; the EU doesn't. The free travel between EU member states does not just apply to the 12 newest members but to all members, as indeed it has done for quite some time. I imagine that if, in some vaingloriously absurd moment, your President suddenly decided to impose legal restrictions upon the movement from one US state to another of legitimate citizens of the land of the free as part of his "war on terrr", you might also think this to be a "bad, bad idea"...

and, as mentioned before - don't think you will be able to freely fish or do anything without being watched and quota'd.  we'll have so many rules in a few years that facism will look like a pretty word.

We have massive fish quotas here in UK and they are indeed restrictive, but only today there have been interviews with fishermen in Cornwall who are now promoting new fashions in gurnard and other non-quotad fish species to get around that and still supply the market with good fish. Just give us your five loaves, Susan, and those enterprising Cornish fishermen will buck the system by doing the rest!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

the power of the EU is banking right now.  it just used the central bank in brussels to bail out nationwide banking structures that were on the verge of collapse.  at least that's what i read in reuter's. 

now - if power isn't banking first - what is it.  next will be established guidelines for this and that.

Please don't forget that one not insignificant factor in recent banking woes in parts of Europe has been their banks' inevitable involvement in dodgy mortgage deals in US; place your power faith in banks and you're in for a rought time anywhere, including EU.

alistair, i happen to believe that if satan is in charge of this world's affairs - then it goes to show that is the reason why none of God's laws are held to be a standard.  the basis of 'common law' once in england.  if anything goes - then there is no standard.  if a male and male can adopt children - which was done in droves recently in pa under the auspices of 'human rights' - how are children ever going to even remember, let alone know - what a nuclear family IS?  what gives society a backbone and structure?  family!

You're getting back onto your anti-homosexual thing again. Law moves on. It has to. It always has. Not by spalling the past in the face, but by constant metamorphosis in accordance with the need for it to reflect the ever-burgeoning multiplicites and complexities of constant changes in human activity. I am not at all against your idea of the bnuclear family, but it cannot and should not be imposed in the way that you appear to advocate.

i'm not saying every person has to have a family - but i'm saying that telling children that live with a male/male partnership that everything is normal isn't exactly true.  what if the child is not cared for as it's own genetic or potential adoptive mother would care?  what if it is even abused (because of the known lower tolerance level in males for high pitched children's voices).

That's fatuous. There are so many children all over the world who are disadvantaged as a result of unstable mixed-sex parental relationships that it is unhelpful, insensitive and disingenuous to write as you do here.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Now, see, ahinton, she's on that slippery slope again.

It had not escaped my notice!

Do be wary! I leave her in your very able hands.

Thanks for the compliment (however backhanded it might feel!), but I'm not at all certain what to do with Susan in my hands...

Best,

Alistair

[landru]

Wow - I don't normally come into this board, but just, wow...this topic.

I have to congratulate the posters who have been very patient with someone that has drunk the kool-aid. Unfortunately for the US and the mideast, fascism and fundamentalism is built on kool-aid drinkers unable to wear someone else's shoes and despise the fact that the "other" even has shoes. There is a third way, messy liberal democracy (note: liberal democracy is a technical term and has absolutely nothing to do with the "Left") which was very useful for the US until the 2000 election until it was deemed "quaint" along with the constitution. The EU should be congratulated for trying to come close to the ideals of liberal democracy while those ideals have been forgotten by the leaders of its once proudest country.

And, what I am disappointed most with in all the posts by pianistimo: Where are the Black Helicopters?  I must have discussions about the UN's Black Helicopters!!!! And nary a word about the flouridation of our precious bodily fluids? Whassup with that?

[ahinton]

Wow - I don't normally come into this board, but just, wow...this topic.

I have to congratulate the posters who have been very patient with someone that has drunk the kool-aid. Unfortunately for the US and the mideast, fascism and fundamentalism is built on kool-aid drinkers unable to wear someone else's shoes and despise the fact that the "other" even has shoes. There is a third way, messy liberal democracy (note: liberal democracy is a technical term and has absolutely nothing to do with the "Left") which was very useful for the US until the 2000 election until it was deemed "quaint" along with the constitution. The EU should be congratulated for trying to come close to the ideals of liberal democracy while those ideals have been forgotten by the leaders of its once proudest country.

And, what I am disappointed most with in all the posts by pianistimo: Where are the Black Helicopters?  I must have discussions about the UN's Black Helicopters!!!! And nary a word about the flouridation of our precious bodily fluids? Whassup with that?

And what about the future world government's legislation making it compulsory for every one of its citizens to consume at least ten jelly beans daily?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Many people often accuse "Brussels" of undue and absurd bureaucracy - and, I openly admit, not without plentiful good reason - yet nothing the emanates from that Belgian city has yet succeeded in undermining the homespun variety in an EU member state, as illustrated by this amusing little diversion:

https://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/7003325.stm

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

Pianistimo, would you please go back and read again the Naomi Wolf article that appeared in "The Guardian"?  The one that inspired THIS thread?  The one that Walter Ramsey made available to us in the link?

You have yet to address the points she raises regarding the ominous rise of fascism in America under the Bush administration.  She presents the case clearly and logically and documents her observations thoroughly.

Would you kindly address her points and then offer a rebuttal based on the evidence she presents?

If you will re-read her piece, you will see that neither the UN, the Pope, the euro, Belgium or Christ figure into her well-presented argument. 

She raises 10 points.  Take each one on and tell us where she is in error.  Please.

Thank you cmg and the Heavenly Father.  I was hoping people would just stop responding to pianitisimo's diversion tactics, but they kept going and send her into a never-ending spiral.  I would actually love to have people's thoughts on this article in question, not on what they think about the Catholic church.

To be honest, the article caused me a lot of consternation, and anxiety.  I'd like for people hopefully to turn a critical eye to it, and maybe find some comfort in its cold facts.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

CMG, i have no desire to read trash.  anyone who speaks about NOT FIGHTING TERRORISM is dead in the head.  i don't care if she raised a million points.  did you ever see the tienamen square stand off.  one person can change a thousand views.  btw, i believe that angels can stop tanks (specifically the people driving them).  and, of course, being on public television would show that world views and facism and dictators always lead to people in real distress. not a few people.  the MAJORITY.

who is the real 'naiomi wolf' - perhaps a wolf in disguise. is this her real name or some journalistic name?  anyways - if it is her real name - i should first like to know her personal history.  after all - fair is fair.  did her forefathers fight in the american revolution?  does she have any personal interest in the USA?  does she believe in freedom of speech and for women's rights (which dictators often do not).  and i don't mean the right to be sexually promiscuous.  does she have any religion - or is she one of those people who criticizes the christian religion because she is for ONE WORLD SYSTEM.

i think people in free countries do not understand the privleges they've had of freedom and now that it's being taken away daily - i am apalled that noone notices.  would you willingly hand the UN every gun from the USA?  would you let them control our libraries and education system.  well, they already do.  did you know that.  now - the banks.  what else?  naomi is playing a little game of just simply moving minds now.  she doesn't have to do much - because the education system has done that for the last 25 years or so.  take a cal state history class.

Pianitisimo, she never said we shouldn't fight terrorists.  In fact, nobody said that.  I will soon be forced to muddling up your posts again, if only to get people to respond rationally to this.  She said the threat was real; she said that different countries have reacted in different ways.  in Amerika, the government reacted by limiting civil liberties and expanding the power of the executive branch at the cost of the other two; in Spain, there was no such movement. 

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

I think that one of the things that goes hand-in-hand with Wolf's arguments is the tremendous effort of the right-wing (and by the way, I am a conservative) to befuddle the general population, and pit neighbor against neighbor.  In all fascist societies, a basic distrust of your neighbor is one of the strongest foundations.

To that end, the media implores us endlessly to hate the liberals; to fear homosexuals; to distrust academics; to despise so-called "activist" judges or lawyers (code-word for liberal); to imagine we have to defend against Europe; and so on.  What's left is a confused people, divided along red and blue fault lines, that can't unite to take a stand on anything.

Pianitisimo is unfortunately collateral damage in this war.  Her mind has been so confounded by these news reports, reports that often contradict reality flatly, that she can no longer tell the difference between hate and disagreement.  This is not written at pianitisimo, but everyone who reads her posts.

When she read an article that made 10 cogent points, she responded not to those points but to the very things she has been instructed to hate: Yale-educated scholars; lesbians; sexually liberated; "liberal;" feminist; etc.  She doesn't realize she has become another attack dog on the master's leash.  She can only point out the things she has been indoctrinated to despise, and cannot even address a single issue at stake.

The sad thing is, if that wasn't sad enough, people like her are increasingly being given a lot of time on national TV.  People who make only ad hominem attacks, exposing their simple mental structures, and who have been trained as attack dogs fronting for the war against a united America. 

What we are all witnessing in this thread, those incoherent and non-sequiter posts, is the fallout from that war.  People have been so mentally strait-jacketed that they cannot look past meaningless labels, to get at substance.  I am sorry to be so direct, but the time has come for it to be said.  Now more than ever America needs to be united, and not divided against itself.  For the past 20 years the right-wing has been attempting to weaken all efforts at American unity, and it is everyone's individual responsibility to stand up for their neighbor, and to keep the bonds of humanity strong.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

how effective is spain's fight on terror?  is it somewhat limited comparatively?  i'm just asking.

before you bash what president bush has done - would you kindly suggest how we should fight terror?  without saying - let's slap wrists.  that never works.

and finally, one can hate the sin but not the sinner.  some of the things mentioned are sins.  i feel that invading a person's privacy is playing God (having another God before God - seeking POWER).  that is not spoken about here.  do you think it is alright for governments such as the EU to spy on people?  to keep dna databanks on free citizens who have committed no major crimes (petty crimes - they are fingerprinted and dna'd) or schoolchildren!

what i am talking about, ramseytheii, is something that seems to escape a lot of people.  that what is coming is far worse fascism than what we see now.  and who is letting it happen?  so-called right-wingers?  i think the stage was set 50 years ago and it's not controlled by anyone now.  we're all pawns.  why does everyone agree?  the system starts with EDUCATION.  start with the youth and teach them what you want them to believe and they won't argue.  continue on with an ivy league school that only hires people who are part of the system (TELL ME HOW MANY CHRISTIANS TEACH AT IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS!).

even the catholics have bones to pick with the EU about recent laws that promote 'no death penalty' - but omit abortion as part of that law.  how about forced abortions.  are you aware that this happened in china - and could literally happen if the EU decided 2 children per family was the law of the land.  how fascist is that?

i'm not saying an 'eye for an eye' is what Jesus Christ proposed.  i think he proposed mercy.  He is above the law - as He is a King.  His judgement will stand 'at the last day.'

i could give you list that would be pages and pages about how christians are denied rights every day - in minor and major infringements.  do they complain.  hardly.  they go on with their business and typically just take it.  are they considered a minority?  no.  and yet - christians HAVE become a minority in education, government, business - etc.  we may consider that it is due to the fact that we are not looking for the 'prizes' to be all wrapped up in this life.

[prongated]

before you bash what president bush has done - would you kindly suggest how we should fight terror?  without saying - let's slap wrists.  that never works.

...I suppose we should think about this in retrospect; post-9/11, what would happen if the US didn't attack Afghanistan? The more I think about it, the more I actually thought that the war on terrorism is somewhat justified. The Iraqi invasion is possibly another issue though...

and finally, one can hate the sin but not the sinner. some of the things mentioned are sins. i feel that invading a person's privacy is playing God (having another God before God - seeking POWER). that is not spoken about here. do you think it is alright for governments such as the EU to spy on people? to keep dna databanks on free citizens who have committed no major crimes (petty crimes - they are fingerprinted and dna'd) or schoolchildren!

...speak for yourself!

the system starts with EDUCATION. start with the youth and teach them what you want them to believe and they won't argue. continue on with an ivy league school that only hires people who are part of the system (TELL ME HOW MANY CHRISTIANS TEACH AT IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS!).

...and how many Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists...? Are you saying that only Christians are capable of teaching youths properly?

i could give you list that would be pages and pages about how christians are denied rights every day - in minor and major infringements. do they complain. hardly. they go on with their business and typically just take it. are they considered a minority? no. and yet - christians HAVE become a minority in education, government, business - etc. we may consider that it is due to the fact that we are not looking for the 'prizes' to be all wrapped up in this life.

...Christians are denied rights just like everybody else. And so what if Christians become a minority in those institutions? If you are a Christian, you'd believe that God is the one who put those ppl in charge anyway. Besides, I'm sure that from a Christian perspective, Christians are just as incompetent in running a good government as everybody else.

[ahinton]

how effective is spain's fight on terror?  is it somewhat limited comparatively?  i'm just asking.

See my earlier remarks about the flawed concept of the "war on terrrr".

before you bash what president bush has done - would you kindly suggest how we should fight terror?  without saying - let's slap wrists.  that never works.

See my earlier remarks about the flawed concept of the "war on terrrr".

and finally, one can hate the sin but not the sinner.

Just as one can deprecate - or despair of - certain Christians but not Christ himself.

some of the things mentioned are sins.  i feel that invading a person's privacy is playing God (having another God before God - seeking POWER).  that is not spoken about here.  do you think it is alright for governments such as the EU to spy on people?  to keep dna databanks on free citizens who have committed no major crimes (petty crimes - they are fingerprinted and dna'd) or schoolchildren!

I'm not ramesytheii, as you know, but my question is why you lick on EC in this way? Of course I oppose this kind of governmental behaviourin principle, but what on earth makes you think that it is some kind of EC-only issue? You're an American; you should know better than this!

what i am talking about, ramseytheii, is something that seems to escape a lot of people.  that what is coming is far worse fascism than what we see now.  and who is letting it happen?  so-called right-wingers?  i think the stage was set 50 years ago and it's not controlled by anyone now.  we're all pawns.  why does everyone agree?  the system starts with EDUCATION.  start with the youth and teach them what you want them to believe and they won't argue.  continue on with an ivy league school that only hires people who are part of the system (TELL ME HOW MANY CHRISTIANS TEACH AT IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS!).

But why are you concerned only with your perceived lack of Christians there?

even the catholics have bones to pick with the EU about recent laws that promote 'no death penalty' - but omit abortion as part of that law.

For goodness' sake, Susan, the death penalty was only ever used in the past in certain countries as punishment for murder; you can't compare that to the situation regarding abortion (or at least not credibly)...

how about forced abortions.  are you aware that this happened in china - and could literally happen if the EU decided 2 children per family was the law of the land.  how fascist is that?

Forced abortions such as you describe ae indeed inhuman and to be deprecated, but where on earth are you getting your information that this could happen across EU? Apart from any other consideration, EU legislation does not take 100% precedence over the laws of its individual member states.

i could give you list that would be pages and pages about how christians are denied rights every day - in minor and major infringements.

Oh, please don't! It's not that I doubt you as such, but you carefully omit to recognise that the same denial of basic hman rights applies just as widely to those of other faiths and none.

do they complain.  hardly.  they go on with their business and typically just take it.  are they considered a minority?  no.  and yet - christians HAVE become a minority in education, government, business - etc.  we may consider that it is due to the fact that we are not looking for the 'prizes' to be all wrapped up in this life.

Christians, Christians and more Christians; can you recognise that you've climbed on to your very specifically Christian-oriented and self-confessedly non-operatic soapbax yet again, Susan?

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

I think that one of the things that goes hand-in-hand with Wolf's arguments is the tremendous effort of the right-wing (and by the way, I am a conservative) to befuddle the general population, and pit neighbor against neighbor.  In all fascist societies, a basic distrust of your neighbor is one of the strongest foundations.

To that end, the media implores us endlessly to hate the liberals; to fear homosexuals; to distrust academics; to despise so-called "activist" judges or lawyers (code-word for liberal); to imagine we have to defend against Europe; and so on.  What's left is a confused people, divided along red and blue fault lines, that can't unite to take a stand on anything.

Pianitisimo is unfortunately collateral damage in this war.  Her mind has been so confounded by these news reports, reports that often contradict reality flatly, that she can no longer tell the difference between hate and disagreement.  This is not written at pianitisimo, but everyone who reads her posts.

When she read an article that made 10 cogent points, she responded not to those points but to the very things she has been instructed to hate: Yale-educated scholars; lesbians; sexually liberated; "liberal;" feminist; etc.  She doesn't realize she has become another attack dog on the master's leash.  She can only point out the things she has been indoctrinated to despise, and cannot even address a single issue at stake.

The sad thing is, if that wasn't sad enough, people like her are increasingly being given a lot of time on national TV.  People who make only ad hominem attacks, exposing their simple mental structures, and who have been trained as attack dogs fronting for the war against a united America. 

What we are all witnessing in this thread, those incoherent and non-sequiter posts, is the fallout from that war.  People have been so mentally strait-jacketed that they cannot look past meaningless labels, to get at substance.  I am sorry to be so direct, but the time has come for it to be said.  Now more than ever America needs to be united, and not divided against itself.  For the past 20 years the right-wing has been attempting to weaken all efforts at American unity, and it is everyone's individual responsibility to stand up for their neighbor, and to keep the bonds of humanity strong.

Walter Ramsey

This bears repetition.  Walter Ramsey, you have have my gratitude for what you have written here.

What you are describing here is "conditioned intelligence."  A Buddhist term for all information people accept as Truth without first challenging it for its possible irrationality.  Religion and all things based on faith are perfect examples of conditioned intelligence.  And so is PATRIOTISM -- which all fascists like Bush exploit.  Believing what you cannot prove for yourself is not virtue.  It is the greatest vice.  It is the hallmark of Aristotle's "unexamined life." 

Pianistimo, whom we all love, is a victim of conditioned intellgence.  She's in crowded company.  Namely, the majority of deluded Americans, most of whom are right-wing Christians.

I, honestly, feel there is little hope.  But, I'm sometimes wrong.     

[m]

before you bash what president bush has done - would you kindly suggest how we should fight terror?  without saying - let's slap wrists.  that never works.

Well Susan, with all my kindness I am capable of I'd suggest that terrorism should be thought in its source, i.e. it is a very long and systematic process, which should include economical, educational, social, and political issues.

Instead, that idiot like a true Texan cowboy got on a horse and in a few days ruined that last balance of stability on Middle East.

And BTW, that man happened to be a Christian. What a surprise!

[cmg]

Thank you cmg and the Heavenly Father.  I was hoping people would just stop responding to pianitisimo's diversion tactics, but they kept going and send her into a never-ending spiral.  I would actually love to have people's thoughts on this article in question, not on what they think about the Catholic church.

To be honest, the article caused me a lot of consternation, and anxiety.  I'd like for people hopefully to turn a critical eye to it, and maybe find some comfort in its cold facts.

Walter Ramsey

The article upset me enormously because it confirmed my observations.  It made me feel less alone and allied with a kindred soul.  Thank you for providing a forum to discuss it.  

[m]

The article upset me enormously because it confirmed my observations.  It made me feel less alone and allied with a kindred soul.  Thank you for providing a forum to discuss it.  

Maybe this will make you feel better--I can clearly see how media becomes more and more manipulated and currently right at the point where it was in Communist Russia under Brezhnev(!!!)
The disturbing thing is that besides of poilics of "fear" it also (as always) goes along with "who to blame for". In facist Gemany there were Reds, in Russia there were Jews, and in America there are terrorists.

I wish Americans could turn around, open their eyes, look at themselves, and shudder out of horror as for how CLUELESS this nation is.

[cmg]

Well Susan, with all my kindness I am capable of I'd suggest that terrorism should be thought in its source, i.e. it is a very long and systematic process, which should include economical, educational, social, and political issues.

Instead, that idiot like a true Texan cowboy got on a horse and in a few days ruined that last balance of stability on Middle East.

And BTW, that man happened to be a Christian. What a surprise!

Well said, sir.  

The terrorism has been the result of decades of American economic, political and cultural oppression.  That's the spark that has ignited this firestorm in the Mideast.  I never condone violence.  My God, I only live six blocks above the former World Trade Towers.  I was present the day of that disaster.  I lost patients and two neighbors in the horror.  But, I knew, instinctively, that America had aroused so much hatred in the world that this carnage occurred.  Why? I wondered.  It was easy to discover the answer when I researched our selfish, exploitative foreign policy.

America needs to grow up. We need to enter the global community.   We need to accept cultural differences.  

We need to find an alternative to oil, damnit.  It's in everyone's best interests.  

[cmg]

Maybe this will make you feel better--I can clearly see how media becomes more and more manipulated. In fact, right now it has reached the point where it was in Communist Russia under Brezhnev.
The disturbing thing is that besides of poilics of "fear" is always goes along with "who to blame for". In facist Gemany there were Reds, in Russia there are Jews, and in America there are terrorist.

I wish Americans could turn around, open their eyes, look at themselves, and shudder out of horror as for how CLUELESS this nation is.

Marik, we completely agree and I wish Americans could benefit from your experience.  You are right.  "Blame" will, indeed, be assigned.  Jews, Reds, homosexuals and now "terrorists."  To the fascists, we are only tools to help them reach their ends.

In NYC, you would find many like-minded thinkers.  That's because NYC is NOT Amerika.  We are the freaks.  Thank God for that!

[m]

In NYC, you would find many like-minded thinkers.  That's because NYC is NOT Amerika.  We are the freaks.  Thank God for that!

 
No wonder almost all my friends whether New Yorkers, or from NYC. Last year alone I was in NYC 9 times.
I only wish NYC, Boston, and a few more cities were America. Unfortunately, real America is midwest, southwest, etc.

They love president Bush. Americans would've hated Al Gore--he is so "intellectual"--anything more than complexity of one single idea is already way too much for Americans.
On the other hand Mr. Bush feels so close to their hearts... it so nice to have somebody to identify yourself with.
Huh! 

[prometheus]

@pope: He was a nazi? Where do you know from? And what does that say about his current political orientation?

Yes, she says that the pope was part of Hitler's regime/government. But he was simply a child in Hitler's brain wash children squads; Hitler Jugend. That's really something different from being a leading nazi under Hitler.

[prometheus]

And, what I am disappointed most with in all the posts by pianistimo: Where are the Black Helicopters? 

She is mentally disturbed. Sadly, through the internet we can't do anything for her. Now, I have been considering for some time now to try to contact her family to make sure she gets help. Maybe that's what I should do.

[ahinton]

And, what I am disappointed most with in all the posts by pianistimo: Where are the Black Helicopters?  I must have discussions about the UN's Black Helicopters!!!!

They're probably being used in performance of Stockhausen's Helikopter-quartett...

Best,

Alistair

[term]

anyone who speaks about NOT FIGHTING TERRORISM is dead in the head

Then I guess i'm officialy dead, since i'm certainly not willing to participate in the current "war on terror". I'm probably even more dead for you when i say i don't believe a word of what officials in the usa or here in europe are saying about terrorism, and that i'm refusing to live in fear influencing my political opinions. Every word of them is like poison, and makes people tend to more radical political views or being openly offensive, suggesting that there is a huge threat, which in reality is rather small, but has been exaggerated and is now creating more hatred and terror of all kinds than there ever was (with other words, it was a self fulfilling prophecy). Before i die from a terrorist attack, i'll be struck by a lightning ten times. -.-

And although i am often defending christianity against radical atheists, i am bound to say that religious people are overly predisposed to that kind of manipulation.

I would even go as far as to say that there must be some kind of evil (if such thing exists) being the driving force of this war on terror, and i really hope this comes to an end soon.

[thalbergmad]

would you kindly suggest how we should fight terror? 

errrrrrrrrrrrrr, stop invading other peoples countries and killing thousands?

Just an idea.

[thalbergmad]

She is mentally disturbed. Sadly, through the internet we can't do anything for her. Now, I have been considering for some time now to try to contact her family to make sure she gets help. Maybe that's what I should do.

I seriously do think that she now needs help. The latest posts are even worse than some of her other garbage.

It is much easier for religion to infest the feeble minded.

Thal

[cmg]

Pianistimo, ahinton, whom you clearly respect and trust, has provided a NYT link that documents the banning of a MUSICIAN (female, too) by the BUSH ADMINISTRATION for reasons no one can decipher.

This is just ONE of the FASCIST techniques that Naomi Wolf is citing.

It's a chilling story YOU ARE REQUIRED TO READ AND DIGEST BEFORE YOIUR NEXT POST IN THIS THREAD.

Your comments on this particular case are kindly, respectfully solicited.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/nyregion/17musicologist.html?ref=arts

[ramseytheii]

Pianistimo, ahinton, whom you clearly respect and trust, has provided a NYT link that documents the banning of a MUSICIAN (female, too) by the BUSH ADMINISTRATION for reasons no one can decipher.

This is just ONE of the FASCIST techniques that Naomi Wolf is citing.

It's a chilling story YOU ARE REQUIRED TO READ AND DIGEST BEFORE YOIUR NEXT POST IN THIS THREAD.

Your comments on this particular case are kindly, respectfully solicited.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/nyregion/17musicologist.html?ref=arts

What is frightening about this story, and others similar, is that the government seems to be initating all sorts of ways to keep people out as well as in.  Nationals from other countries who experience humiliation and insult at passport checks, are sure to spread their experience to other nationals, and discourage tourism, and potential workers from coming in. 

Yo-Yo Ma testified a couple of years ago about this to a deaf Congress.  Since everybody now is fingerprinted and photographed, and from time to time harassed, even when they have the proper papers and good credentials, many European artists refuse to come and perform in Amerika.  I know some of them personally, including a Swedish conductor whose long and robust beard was searched by customs agents. 

Amerika is going to experience many repercussions from this closing off of society: not only are they going to lose international influence in the humanities, they are going to start losing the best and brightest in the sciences as well.  This was well known to have happened in Germany.  Once qualified people are forced out of their positions, (purging of academics is on the list), and qualified foreigners are refused entry, the only natural step for sympathetic colleagues is to leave the country and abandon their work in that country.  The United States could be in for very dark days, with a stagnation on productive science and a field of masochist science exploding, exactly like what happened in Nazi Germany.

Every so often word is leaked to the press about new weapons that the Department of Defense has developed: one that can emit a pitch at such a frequency that it causes extreme pain to those in a certain radius; one that can emit heat powerful enough to torture, but not powerful enough to burn.  This is the science of masochism, the science of inflicting pain and torture on human beings.  This is where the country is headed, unless we return to the values of the Constitution.

If you allow one person to be held indefinitely without any rights, if you allow one person to be exposed to government-sanctioned torture, if you allow one person to disappear into a secret prison, you have already opened your front door for the worst kind of masochists and thugs to come in.  You have set the precedent that could put you into a secret prison, tortured, and given no rights. 

Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.  If you allow torture, be prepared when the knock comes on your door.  If you allow secret abductions with no accountability, be prepared to have your loved ones go the way of so many others.  If you allow the suspension of legal rights to any human being, accept that your legal rights are just as fragile and precarious.

Walter Ramsey

[m]

errrrrrrrrrrrrr, stop invading other peoples countries and killing thousands?

Just an idea.

Yep, and to begin with, stop announcing different regions as "zone of interest".
It  is the same as I'd come to Susan's home and say: "OK dear, I like your house, so from now on you will be doing everything the way I tell you".

Ha! Take Iraq. Amerikans came there "to plant a seed of democracy"

Where were Amerikans and where are they when Rwanda happened, when over a million people were killed in just a few days!!??

Where are Americans when in most of African countries the term "human rights" does not exist as a "genre".

The answer is so obvious--Africa does not have OIL. Why to bother??

WHAT A HYPOCRACY!!!

[cmg]

Where were Amerikans and where are they when Rwanda happened, when over a million people were killed in just a few days!!??

Where are Americans when in most of African countries the term "human rights" does not exist as a janre.

WHAT A HYPOCRACY!!!

Amerikans, as I'm sure you've noticed, never go to places where there are no resources (natural or otherwise) to exploit.

Africa doesn't even remotely interest this country.  None of its hideous suffering stirs Congress.  OIL does.  This country goes where it can enrich the already rich over here.  That accounts for the deadly, passionate interest in the Mideast.  The oil deposits.

In my cynical little heart, I've always secretly wondered if Israel were in South America, or Africa -- instead of being strategically located in the Mideast as it is -- well, I just wonder if we would be such a strong ally?

[mephisto]

Amerikans, as I'm sure you've noticed, never go to places where there are no resources (natural or otherwise) to exploit.

Vietnam? If I understood Noam Chomsky's thesis they went there to prevent communism and to make a indochina into a strategic american place(bad choice of word, from my side, but I couldn't think of any better word...).

[rob47]

In 1943, the US War and Navy Department printed a guide on Iraq to help soldiers understand the people during their quest to beat Hitler.

You will enter Iraq both as a soldier and as an individual, because on our side a man can be both a soldier and an individual. That is our strength—if we are smart enough to use it. It can be our weakness if we aren't. As a soldier your duties are laid out for you. As an individual, it is what you do on your own that counts—and it may count for a lot more than you think.

You can read it here: https://www.lonesentry.com/iraq/iraq.html

it's pretty awesome

[cmg]

Vietnam? If I understood Noam Chomsky's thesis they went there to prevent communism and to make a indochina into a strategic american place(bad choice of word, from my side, but I couldn't think of any better word...).

Good point.  Vietnam is a particularly interesting case of American meddling.  The US "party line" was the so-called "domino theory."  The hypothesis went like this:  if one country fell to communism, neighboring ones would.  Like cancer.

In truth, Southeast Asia is critical to US military/ecomonic interests.  The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor -- the attack that brought the US into World War II -- alerted the American military to the need to "watch out backs."  Furthermore, there was a persistent rumor of vast oil reserves off the coast of Vietnam.  Whether that was true or not, I can't say.

But, one thing is for sure:  no government not directly under attack by another nation, goes to war strictly over "ideals," such a trying to stamp out communism.  It goes to war over money.

(Even the US entry into World War II was not altruistic.  The US, like the rest of the world, was mired in a deep depression.  That's the perfect time for wars.  Crank up the machine.  Produce weapons, etc.  Give people jobs.  Put them in factories or on the firing lines.)

And that threat of communism spreading like cancer?  The so-called domino theory?  Turns out it wasn't a workable theory afterall.  Communism all over globe is fading fast.  Even in Vietnam where officials there are courting American capitalists to develop their nation.

And how many died over that "mistake?"  

[m]

And that threat of communism spreading like cancer?  The so-called domino theory?  Turns out it wasn't a workable theory afterall.    

Well, in fact, not even that. America got into WWII when it was clear that Germany gonna lose the war. Most certainly there would be a complete political and economical re-distribution of the world.
You tell me how America could possibly give away its part of pie, if not to take the whole cake??

[zheer]

In my cynical little heart, I've always secretly wondered if Israel were in South America, or Africa -- instead of being strategically located in the Mideast as it is -- well, I just wonder if we would be such a strong ally?

  The people of Israel are of Arab origin, the land which they now live  on was the land of the Palestinians. The Jewish question after world war 2 was, where can the jews live outside europe, the answer was found in a religious text, that place is now known as Israel.The Palistineans/Arabs were force out of that land, reason why we so see much violence in that part of the world.

[zheer]

In 1943, the US War and Navy Department printed a guide on Iraq to help soldiers understand the people during their quest to beat Hitler.

[

  Dont forget that once Iraq gained its independance once the Ottoman empire came to an end the British and french during the first world war enterd Iraq for the first time (1914-1919)with the intention of ruling its people, however the Turks along with kurds defeated the British empire ,what we have today is a 3rd attempt.

[m]

  The people of Israel are of Arab origin, the land which they now live  on was the land of the Palistinean. The Jewish question after world war 2 was, where can the jews live outside europe, the answer was found in a religious text, that place is now known as Israel.The Palistineans/Arabs were force out of that land, reason why we so see much violence in that part of the world.

Well, to avoid confusion here there are some points to address here.
First, people of modern Israel are both of Jewish and Arab origin.
Second, Palestine was esteblished on a territory which for at least 4 thousand years was a Jewish place and called "ISRAEL".
Third, the Palestinians were never forced out of that land and still live in Israel.
Fourth, all the situation in the region is a result of dirty politics and economical and cultural manipulations. But it is better not to get there.

Best, M

[zheer]

Third, the Palestinians were never forced out of that land and still live in Israel.

    Your taking the piss right, tell me your not serious. Since 1948 the year Israel was created by America, the Palestinians have been murderd and stript of all their Human rights, forced out of their homes and 3 quarter of a million palestinians have been ethnically cleansed be the Israely Jew. Since 1948 thousands and thousands of Arabs have been murderd,put in prison, beaten, and made homeless by the Israely policy. Lets not forget the invasion of Lebanon.

[m]

    Your taking the piss right, tell me your not serious. Since 1948 the year Israel was created by America, the Palestinians have been murderd and stript of all their Human rights, forced out of their homes and 3 quarter of a million palestinians have been ethnically cleansed be the Israely Jew. Since 1948 thousands and thousands of Arabs have been murderd,put in prison, beaten, and made homeless by the Israely policy. Lets not forget the invasion of Lebanon.

You are confusing way too many things even in such a small paragraph. It is not as simple as you are trying to present it here, and the complexity of the situation is mostly a result of much political and economical manipulation, which goes down to end of 50's. To sort it all out for you will take very long time, which I don't have, anyway.

All I can tell, you know everything from the media, and I spent living in Israel 8 years and as fluent in Hebrew as in English and know the situation from inside.

In any case, this is a thread about America, so let's not get way out of topic.

P.S. Speaking of Lebanon invasion, you conviniently ommit the fact that actually Lebanon started it first, when Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli border town. In fact, from top of my head I cannot remember one single war Israel started first.

[pianistimo]

wow.  so many perspectives and messages since friday night.  cmg, i haven't a clue why the musician was singled out.  i remember hearing about a canadian who was also - who frequently used to cross the border.  i think he worked in canada but his family resided in the usa.  he was confused as well - and wasn't told exactly why he was taken into a room for interrogation.  he wasn't pleased either.  although - being searched is a far cry here in america from the types of interrogation that happen elsewhere. 

in australia - the president there held a moratorium for soccer? players to not go to africa to play against mugabi's team because of how dictators run things.  if you want to know why africa is in the state it is - or has been - you should also read about idi amin.  america is not responsible for the entire world - and yet has sent much food and relief aid.  the UN's whole reason for existence IS to keep peace in the world. 

i don't think america or any country is perfect.  all i'm saying is that just like with religion, politics, relationships - people have to be willing to accept that in this lifetime there will be no 'perfection' - but we should seek peace in any case.  and human rights.  that is not disagreed at all.  if you will remember my past messages - i was for the guantanamo bay detainees to have the right to know why they were being held - and to especially release all the young men that were EXTREMELY young and probably barely out of their mother's arms and were pawns in a system of education that was required (possibly by threat of death) - instead of older people who know and plan and tell people what to do and how to bomb places.

unfortunately legal systems in countries all over the world do not act with real 'human rights' at heart.  why?  i think because you have to use common sense as well as follow regulations as best as you can.  i liked what rob47 said about the 'individual.'  if every individual was rational - we could have a just decision.

what i find irrational is using violence at the first opportunity.  and might doesn't equal right.  there are many things that i agree upon here.  and, i've been outspoken before about human rights and wiretapping.  there is no disagreement.  what is not known right now is how complicit entire world governments are to a 'one world government.'  that is what i think will be the most fascist.

i do not think the pope, prometheus, was a member of hitler youth because he loved killing jews - but he did see a lot and did not stand up to say anything.  should he then hold the highest office in a religion - when other people risked life and limb to save jews?  i think this is hypocrisy.  but, at the same time - today is rosh hashana and it teaches all people to know that only God is judge and arbiter - and our place is not to judge others, but rather ourselves.  on the day of judgement we are not responsible for anyone except ourself.

my dream would be to see the reality of what Jesus Christ intended - actually operate the way it should.  although the jews have sufferred - i do not believe that it is for nothing.  israel never dies.  why?  because God thru his son Jesus Christ will use jerusalem as a capital for all the nations (under God).  someday we will see what peace can be like.  but only under God.  there cannot be many standards - but only one.  this may seem fascist - but who are we to argue with God?  He made us.  and, He has our best interests in mind.  and it isn't killing others.  however, He will not tolerate sin.