Who are some Romantic composers you can't stand?

[muscleman]

In your opinion, are there any Romantic composers you just cannot tolerate their music?  Personally mine is R. Schumann.  No matter how hard I've tried to appreciate his compositions, I just can't do it.  I've listened to several performances of different Cliburn competitors, and try as I might, I just don't like them.  I've thought maturity might have some influence, but even that isn't proving to be the case.  No wonder this man had mental problems!

[thalbergmad]

I loathe and detest just about everything that came from Schumann's pen. It bores me senseless and makes me feel suicidal.

It is an insult to romanticism to describe him as a romantic composer.

Thal

[argerichfan]

LOL Thal, I knew you'd be on this one!

Of all the 'mainstream' romantic piano composers, Schumann seems to be the recipient of the lion's share of critical assault.  I've never quite understood that, since there are some Schumann compositions I've loved since I was a boy (Carnival for example), and then the Symphonic Etudes which I performed at uni.  And where would my life be without the Fantasie? 

That said, I've personally (key word here) never found his orchestration all that interesting, though I've read several very emotional treatises (one by a noted conductor) defending Schumann's orchestration as entirely appropriate to his musical vision, reflecting his emotional state, etc.  Seems a bit lost on me, though as a great admirer of Liszt, I won't make any claims for his orchestration.  (Imagine if Mahler, Strauss or Elgar had re-orchestrated Liszt's Faust Symphony?  The mind boggles. )

[communist]

I don't like Chopin's music at all. He has some pieces I like a lot (E.G. sonata op.35, preludes, scherzi) but generally I find his music cheesy and/or boring. I to have never understood the hatred of Schumann. I find his music profound and emotional at the same time.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Berlioz, Reger -- both pretty heavy-handed. 

[weissenberg2]

Johann Strauss Jr. I don't like him because, well, I just don't

[minor9th]

Schubert and Schumann bore me stiff.

[point of grace]

chopin and schubert

[kelly_kelly]

I think I manage to like something from every composer... I used to think I disliked Schumann, but now I think I really enjoy the Symphonic Etudes, Fantasiestucke, and the Fantasy op. 17. The other composer who sometimes doesn't appeal to me is Rachmaninoff (I'm sorry!). But I love his second piano concerto and several preludes and etudes. I was slow to appreciate Brahms and Schubert, but they've grown on me over time. So... no, I guess there isn't any composer whom I cannot tolerate at all 

[indutrial]

Reger's a fantastic composer whose work evinced far more stylistic diversity than lots of other romantic composers. My least favorite in the syrupy, over-dramatic, and massively over-rated world of Romantic music would have to be Rachmaninov (though he is obviously talented as a composer and player). Plenty of those Hyperion Romantic Piano Concertos discs have also put me to sleep with startling ease (especially that supremely boring concerto by Arensky and numerous derivative-sounding Polish concertos by Scharwenka etc...). To be fair, I like a whole bunch of chamber works from that period, especially the sextets and quintets by Brahms and almost everything that Faure and Reger wrote.

[thalbergmad]

Plenty of those Hyperion Romantic Piano Concertos discs have also put me to sleep with startling ease (especially that supremely boring concerto by Arensky and numerous derivative-sounding Polish concertos by Scharwenka etc...).

Astounding, but each to his own.

One day, we will find some common ground, but it probably won't be music.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Indutrial will undoubtedly be pleased to know that there are enough Romantic concerti to fill another 50 issues, so i don't think insomnia will be a problem.

I hope Mr Spring gets around to recording the Parish-Alvars. That would really piss him off

Thal

[indutrial]

Astounding, but each to his own.

One day, we will find some common ground, but it probably won't be music.

Thal

Bah, don't take my classless trashtalking the wrong way, Thal. I actually do have a number of discs from the aforementioned series that I like a lot, including the Dohnanyi, Busoni, Medtner, and York Bowen volumes. Late romantics like them are definitely very much worth the attention. I don't remember if I've heard the Saint-Saens set or the Pierne disc, but those works similarly don't really strike me as being bad in any way. Not my favorite French works, but still very good. I was aiming my criticism at some of the more subpar entries in the series.

[weissenberg2]

Bah, don't take my classless trashtalking the wrong way, Thal. I actually do have a number of discs from the aforementioned series that I like a lot, including the Dohnanyi, Busoni, Medtner, and York Bowen volumes. Late romantics like them are definitely very much worth the attention. I don't remember if I've heard the Saint-Saens set or the Pierne disc, but those works similarly don't really strike me as being bad in any way. Not my favorite French works, but still very good. I was aiming my criticism at some of the more subpar entries in the series.

This prompts me to ask you if you have heard the Napravnik/Blumenthal disc? I also like the Kalkbrenner.

[thalbergmad]

I actually do have a number of discs from the aforementioned series that I like a lot, including the Dohnanyi, Busoni, Medtner, and York Bowen volumes. Late romantics like them are definitely very much worth the attention. I don't remember if I've heard the Saint-Saens set or the Pierne disc, but those works similarly don't really strike me as being bad in any way. Not my favorite French works, but still very good. I was aiming my criticism at some of the more subpar entries in the series.

My interest does begin to decrease a little the further the 20th went on, but the Dohnanyi and the Bowen were pleasing to my ears. The Busoni is too long and heavy for me.

The Pierne did nothing for me and i would happily live out my life if i never heard any of the Saint Saens again.

The later romantics do interest me, but i am more at home with the "grand sweeping" style.

Thal

[communist]

I did not like the Pierne concerto either. I found it to be very cheesy.

may I ask what this "grand sweeping" style is? I am guessing it is when a composer is in between the classical and romantic era (E.G. Kalkbrenner, Moscheles, Hummel, Weber et al)

[thalbergmad]

I was referring more to the likes of Henselt, Scharwenka, Schytte & Bortkiewicz. Brilliant, grandiose, lyrical and somewhat Lisztian works.

The composers you mention i would tend to categorise as "proto romantics".

Thal

[weissenberg2]

My least favorite in the syrupy, over-dramatic, and massively over-rated world of Romantic music would have to be Rachmaninov (though he is obviously talented as a composer and player).

I see how you could find some of his music syrupy and how you could not like the drama but I do not see how you can find him masisively over-rated. But that is your opinion which I completely respect.

[indutrial]

I see how you could find some of his music syrupy and how you could not like the drama but I do not see how you can find him masisively over-rated. But that is your opinion which I completely respect.

I was saying that Romantic-leaning music as a whole is somewhat overrated, not specifically Rachmaninov (though I feel his importance is blown out of proportion at times).

[weissenberg2]

I was saying that Romantic-leaning music as a whole is somewhat overrated, not specifically Rachmaninov (though I feel his importance is blown out of proportion at times).

I think it would be more appropriate to say that all other eras are underrepresented (with a few exceptions, E.G. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart). I don't remember anyone saying Rachmaninoff was important, he was admittedly not important.

[lontano]

I don't like Chopin's music at all. He has some pieces I like a lot (E.G. sonata op.35, preludes, scherzi) but generally I find his music cheesy and/or boring. I to have never understood the hatred of Schumann. I find his music profound and emotional at the same time.

I take OFFENSE to your personal opinion, SIR!

Chopin was the finest of all Romantic composers for the piano and defined what it meant to develop the requisite technique for the instrument at that time. There is no valid argument here. All other "opinions" are without any merit and thus have no place here, nor anywhere! 

Now as for Schumann, while he wrote a few decent works, I allow for opinions, mostly negative of course, but you can argue amongst yourselves on that one. 

[communist]

Chopin was the finest of all Romantic composers for the piano and defined what it meant to develop the requisite technique for the instrument at that time. There is no valid argument here. All other "opinions" are without any merit and thus have no place here, nor anywhere! 

Him being the finest of all Romantic composers is arguable. I am not saying he was not important I was merely saying I don't like his music. My opinion does not have less merit than anyone else's here, since I was just saying I don't like his music. I am sick of having this arguement, this has to be at leas the fourth time I have had to have it.

sorry if I offended you 

[lontano]

Lighten up; it was a joke...

[communist]

Lighten up; it was a joke...

sorry about the mis-communication 

[nickus32000]

Brahms is a sore spot for me personally, his music is too heavy and acedemic. I don't find MacDowell particularly interesting for the same reasons. Schumann's music I love for it's quirkyness.

[nanabush]

Other than Schubert's Impromptus, I've never really been captivated much by his stuff.  All the other composers mentioned have stuff that I love though

[ahinton]

I loathe and detest just about everything that came from Schumann's pen. It bores me senseless and makes me feel suicidal.

(Thal doesn't like ink)...

Best,

Alistair

[kiwi_bd]

 
I just can't understand why you all hate Schumann so much
He is one of my top favourite composers...i love him more than Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, etc..
Though his music might not be that influential as the mentioned, his music is extremely expressive, passionate and soulful...

[ahinton]

I just can't understand why you all hate Schumann so much

We don't.

Best,

Alistair

[kiwi_bd]

We don't.

Best,

Alistair

SOME OF YOU DO
they are like saying that Schumann's pieces are worthless

e.g.
Thalberg:
I loathe and detest just about everything that came from Schumann's pen. It bores me senseless and makes me feel suicidal.

It is an insult to romanticism to describe him as a romantic composer.

What a disrespectful comment it is!

[thalbergmad]

Sorry, i thought i was being rather mild.

If you like his teutonic trash, i am happy for you.

Thal

[calabi_yau]

I don't like most Romantic music in general. I don't get it. Too swirly. Too much romanticism, too much excess, too much pedal...I have to be in a very special mood to appreciate it. Can't take too much at once. But Chopin is very dear to me when done right. There's not a particular composer I can think of that I hate.

[ahinton]

Sorry, i thought i was being rather mild.

If you like his teutonic trash, i am happy for you.

The purpose of my post was to point out that by no means everyone here detests Schumann; I am not an unwavering advocate of his every work by any stretch of anyone's imagination, but there are certain of his works without which I would really not want to live, including but not limited to Études Symphoniques, Fantasy, Piano Quintet, Carnaval, Scenes from Faust and so on. You can detest him all you want, but there's much more to Schumann than Thal's contempt can express...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I don't like most Romantic music in general. I don't get it. Too swirly. Too much romanticism

One of the big problems with romantic music is that there is too much romanticism.

Thal

[ahinton]

One of the big problems with romantic music is that there is too much romanticism.

As one might say about the amount of "modernism" in so-called "modern" music or the quantity of baroque expression in baroque music or the prevalence of Thalism in the music of anyone whose name ends in "thal"...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I don't like most Romantic music in general. I don't get it. Too swirly. Too much romanticism, too much excess, too much pedal...I have to be in a very special mood to appreciate it. Can't take too much at once. But Chopin is very dear to me when done right. There's not a particular composer I can think of that I hate.

I'm with this. I generally don't mind Romantic compositions, but sometimes the mood just becomes too predictably syrupy, especially in terms of harmony. When that's in place, no amount of flashy technical runs, cadenzas, or dramatic buildups will really bring be back around. That's how some composers lose me.

This isn't to say that modernism is the cure-all to this. The irritable elements of modern music are often more immediate and difficult to bear than any sort of 'boring' romantic piece. Anyone who knows what my tastes are knows that I'm stuck somewhere in the middle, mostly favoring romantic music that stretches the harmonic boundaries and modern music that's not about philosophical gimmicks and pushing pianos down flights of stairs.

I'm obviously in favor of the compositional spirit unlocked by Romantic composers by which musical creation became personal and more autobiographical than before. What I dislike is how some musicians these days have stratified the whole of classical music in a way that puts the styles of 1800s romantics at the top of some imaginary stylistic pyramid.

[retrouvailles]

What I dislike is how some musicians these days have stratified the whole of classical music in a way that puts the styles of 1800s romantics at the top of some imaginary stylistic pyramid.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!

[neardn]

It may be shocking to many simple-minded people (who I'm sure wish to be progressive or something, and consider any piece with large arpeggios on an augmented E romantic) but, and despite whether musicologists or scholars have an easy time accepting it or not, in the opinion of the real experts, Brahms actually belongs to the classical school.

[gep]

SOME OF YOU DO
they are like saying that Schumann's pieces are worthless

e.g.
Thalberg:
I loathe and detest just about everything that came from Schumann's pen. It bores me senseless and makes me feel suicidal.

It is an insult to romanticism to describe him as a romantic composer.

What a disrespectful comment it is!

I must say music from "the romantics" (roughly the period of Mendelssohn/Schumann/Chopin)isn't the highest on my list, but they did write interesting pieces. Usually I like least those pieces that the the most "Salonfähig" so to speak. Such pieces contain too much exhalted Biedermeier "emotionalism" to my taste. I can almost feel the stuffy atmosphere of the Salons in whcih they were played.
I recall one conductor once stating that (must paraphrase from memory here) "I like conducting Brahms, for he was a great composer. But this Romantic music is so "thick". After such a concert, when I drive home, I feel the need to cleanse my ears by rinsing them with some Bach, such as the Goldberg variations". I can appreciate what he said!
Of Schumann I think I like the Piano Concerto and Violin Concerto most and those little pianopieces (Papillons and Albumblätter and such) least.

As for

I loathe and detest just about everything that came from Schumann's pen. It bores me senseless 

well, I could think of another name in the place of Schumann, begins with a T..

Brahms actually belongs to the classical school.

A fair point I think. After all, his 1st symphony was nicknamed "Beethoven's 10th". I think I like his 1st and 4th symphonies best of all.

All best,
gep

[indutrial]

It may be shocking to many simple-minded people (who I'm sure wish to be progressive or something, and consider any piece with large arpeggios on an augmented E romantic) but, and despite whether musicologists or scholars have an easy time accepting it or not, in the opinion of the real experts, Brahms actually belongs to the classical school.

In spite of the time period they fall in, I've always felt that Brahms, Faure, and Reger fall into their own category, which I've seen best described as a 'restrained romanticism' characterized by 'subtlety and appreciation of form...more akin to Baroque and Classical composers than the late Romantics.' In one of the better books I read about modern composition and early twentieth century music, much of the first chapter focused on Brahms' motivic and rhythmic concerns and their importance in the decades to follow. I personally vastly prefer his style as a composer over most if not all of the 'nationalist' late-romantics in addition to Wagner, Liszt, Mahler, etc...

[edwardweiss]

 I am amazed to read such criticism of Schumann-suspecting as I do that those who don't like his music are those who can't play the skips at the end of Op.17 movement two. Perhaps his detractors should seek out Ray Lev's recording of Kreisleriana-the most convincing performance I've ever encountered. I don't consider Max Reger a Romantic composer-a shallow view in my opinion. Reger was to me an Expressionist. His work takes Motivic Development forward as never before. Dr. Gwylim Beechey wrote three superb articles in 'The Musical Times' on this very topic back in the mid-sixties. Romantic composers I can't stand? Er-none of them.

[thalbergmad]

In spite of the time period they fall in, I've always felt that Brahms, Faure, and Reger fall into their own category, which I've seen best described as a 'restrained romanticism'

I rather prefer unrestrained romanticism myself, especially with a large helping of syrup

I think that is an excellent description though and perhaps it is the reason why i do not care a great deal for Brahms and Reger. I did use to have a love affair with the Reger Telemann Variations, but after Hamelin turned it into a midi, i have not been able to listen to it since.

To me, romanticism is about throwing away the chains of form and composing with reckless abandon, so i do not consider Brahms & Reger to be romantics, nor Reinecke, Volkmann, Gernsheim, Reuss, Stavenhagen etc.

Is there a German connection here, or have i had too much beer again.

Thal

[indutrial]

To me, romanticism is about throwing away the chains of form and composing with reckless abandon

Wait, now...isn't that why you dislike Sorabji, because much of his music seems to do just that, albeit to the point of additionally throwing loose the chains of time constraint and the comfort of the human bowels.

[lontano]

chopin and schubert

I'm 60 years old. When I was 15-30 years old I had no love, nor interest in Schubert or Schumann. What I was taught to play just didn't interest me at the time I was in my state of maturity. We can grow!

I believe I'm older than the average person here, and I'm making no special claims of "superior maturity", but some of the composers, and their subsequent works have revealed their "inner beauty" over time. And I fought hard against them for many years!

But it was my unique opportunity to be hired as a music librarian/recording technician in a small college that exposed me (along with further courses in piano, theory and music history, etc.) to all sorts of music.

Eventually "I Got it!", and eventually you doubters of specific composers, or specific works, or the general product of a specific period might eventually learn to appreciate these works. And maybe not! All it takes is deeper exploration. "If the cavern is empty we might as well leave!"

I still don't care for much of Schumann ((some works I like very much) in general) but like many other composers, with the help of the Web, it doesn't take long for one to gain a more personal understanding of what the composer in question was experiencing during various stages of life. And that is the deepest part of Music History that is rarely taught prior to graduate school, unfortunately.

So open your Baker's Dictionary, or "The New Grove History of Music et. al." and look up some true grit that drove the many composers during their time, and understand when, where and how they evolved, rather than wasting time taking lethal shots at them with (possible) youthful arrows of indignation!

Today anyone with a few connections can become an overnight sensation, with all the inspiration and integrity of the Simpson Sisters, of whatever the Kardassions appear to be  (along with a long, and disturbingly growing list of vacuous, "empty holes" of contemporary "SuperStars")  , but these are the latest distillations of what was once a great "integration of a musical nation". It seems that becoming a Pop Star involves the parental motivation at least as much as the inherent musical ability of the prodigy.

RIP: Michael Jackson, as conflicted and complex as any of the most disturbed popular stars in all of musical history. I once hated him, but now I can begin to accept him for what made him the icon he became, and begin to let go the suspicions of his possible personal indignities with children. It is especially difficult for me.


Lontano

[thalbergmad]

Wait, now...isn't that why you dislike Sorabji

No, I dislike Sorabji because he i have never heard a theme he composed that i could happily whistle at the bus stop.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I'm 60 years old. When I was 15-30 years old I had no love, nor interest in Schubert or Schumann.

Neither did i, but Schubert did eventually pierce my heart, whilst all Schumann ever did was to pierce my ears.

Perhaps when i am 60 i will think differently, but at the moment i am no longer willing to force my ears to listen to his works. There is so much beauty to be had elsewhere.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I can't stand Schumann!

Discursive, rambling, tedious writing giving away his inability to write coherently within large-scale structures. His attempts at profundity are filtered through a heady dose of bourgeois schmalz and tend to make me laugh. On the other hand, his light relief brings to mind the stereotypical British view on Teutonic humour.

Attempting to be even-handed: I love Liszt, but he wrote more than his fair share of nonsense. The difference is - when Liszt wrote nonsense, he did it with panache.

[thalbergmad]

when Liszt wrote nonsense, he did it with panache.

Yeh, if you are going to compose rubbish, at least do it with some flair.

Thal

[gep]

No, I dislike Sorabji because he i have never heard a theme he composed that i could happily whistle at the bus stop.

Thal

Try the main theme from Mvt II of the Fourth Piano Symphony (also being the theme of the Variations section of that movement). Beauty, simplicity and molto cantabile. Of course, I have no idea why anyone would whistle something at the bus stop, it don't say anything back. 

[gep]

To me, romanticism is about throwing away the chains of form and composing with reckless abandon, so i do not consider Brahms & Reger to be romantics, nor Reinecke, Volkmann, Gernsheim, Reuss, Stavenhagen etc.

Is there a German connection here, or have i had too much beer again.

Thal

How 'bout Joseph Marx and Richard Wetz?
I wonder what you make of Rued Langgaard (who was Danish, not German, of course!). "Composing with reckless abandon" could almost be the subtitle of his 11th Symphony.