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Author Topic: should i start the fantasie impromptu?  (Read 109211 times)
breadboy
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« on: August 21, 2004, 03:53:00 AM »

I'm just about to finish up Fur Elise after playing for just under 3 months with a teacher and I was wondering, is the Fantasie Impromptu something I could shoot for next or should I wait a few months?

God bless
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janice
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2004, 07:16:16 AM »

Quote
I'm just about to finish up Fur Elise after playing for just under 3 months with a teacher and I was wondering, is the Fantasie Impromptu something I could shoot for next or should I wait a few months?

God bless


Try waiting a few YEARS.  Seriously.  If you want to be able to do justice to it.  But however, if you want to do it for your own enjoyment, then I see no problem with that.


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breadboy
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2004, 09:41:26 AM »

it honestly doesn't look very hard, the left hand is just repeating easy stuff and the right hand is doing single notes at a fast pace, it doesn't look like la campanella or anything Smiley

God bless
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Fastzuernst
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2004, 11:18:50 AM »

If you want to play it, then you should play it!
But first, MAKE SURE to start out by figuring out the correct fingerings, (have your teacher help you with this, don't trust your own judgement!)  and practice it very slowly (again with the correct fingerings) Hands Separately at first.
Get an overview of the piece as a whole. Find the spots that are most difficult for you, practice them slowly with the correct fingering.
Then you can start picking up the speed that is needed for this piece. But always remember that accuracy is much more important than speed. A sloppy fast performance is worse than a slower controled one.

It may take you longer than you would like at first, but if you want to play it well these basics will hopefully save you alot of time in the long run. Another plus is that it will help you with your technique!

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allchopin
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2004, 06:17:47 AM »

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But always remember that accuracy is much more important than speed. A sloppy fast performance is worse than a slower controled one.

I learned this the hard way- in front of about 700 people.
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donjuan
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2004, 08:43:40 AM »

I am absolutely terrified of playing Fantasy Impromptu.  It is a really intimidating piece for even the best pianists.  I would rather take on La Campanella than such madness.

but that's just me.....
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goalevan
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2004, 09:02:23 AM »

after 3 months I wouldn't recommend it lol, but you can give it a go and let us know how you're coming along?
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donjuan
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2004, 09:07:05 AM »

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I'm just about to finish up Fur Elise after playing for just under 3 months........................[fantasy impromptu] honestly doesn't look very hard


I would REALLY like to hear you play! Grin
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benji
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2004, 09:14:42 AM »

Wow, that's quite a jump in skill! That's like just learning to read and immediately wanting to tackle The Sound and the Fury.

If only piano was that easy...
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Shagdac
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2004, 11:40:27 AM »

Breadboy wrote:
Quote
it honestly doesn't look very hard


Sometimes looks can be deceiving!

In my opinion, I think someone who has been playing for under 3 months would have a difficult time playing this piece, let alone playing it CORRECTLY. However, since you have a teacher and he/she is probably the best judge of your current level of playing, I would discuss with them and see what they suggested. Either way, please let us know.

Best of luck!

S Smiley
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Swan
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2004, 04:17:23 PM »

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is the Fantasie Impromptu something I could shoot for next or should I wait a few months?

God bless


Are you saying it has taken you three months to get Fur Elise (the complete rondo)together? Three months is a long time to be working on just one piece.  It will take you much longer to get Fantasie Impromptu at performance standard.   Your time and effort is probably better spent learning easier pieces to add to your repertoire.  (notice plural). Try some of Chopin's waltzes.
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breadboy
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2004, 07:20:09 PM »

Quote


Are you saying it has taken you three months to get Fur Elise (the complete rondo)together? Three months is a long time to be working on just one piece.  It will take you much longer to get Fantasie Impromptu at performance standard.   Your time and effort is probably better spent learning easier pieces to add to your repertoire.  (notice plural). Try some of Chopin's waltzes.


In a manner of speaking, yes, thats what I said.
What I meant was that i've been playing piano for a little under 3 months with a teacher (messing around a little before that) and during that 3 months in addition to sight reading drills I have almost finished Fur Elise (everything at the beginning and almost the whole first interuption is done, and the rest should be done within another month)

I'm aware the Fantaisie could take awhile, but i'll wait Smiley

God bless
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steve
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2004, 12:16:52 AM »

Hey

I don't mean this to sound remotely harsh - take it as a useful rule of thumb, in fact, for future reference: if you can't see WHY a piece is hard in the first place, then it's probably quite a bit out of reach of your current abilities, even with a lot of work.

In this instance, one of the hardest things about the fantaisie-impromptu is the fact that it involves simple time in one hand, played against compound time in the other.

I know where you're coming from on this, cos I've been in your shoes before (although admittedly with slightly more modest aspirations than to play the fant.-imp. straight after für elise!), and, believe me, it's not worth it.  Even though it might in the long run prove a gruelling crash course in technique, the piece requires years of playing in order to have the MUSICAL experience to play it well - and that's not to put you down, since that's true for everyone.

The fact is that it will probably prove a pretty unpleasant experience in the end, and will sap the real meaning of playing the piano out of what you're doing, since you'll simply be trying to beat your "Everest".  Ultimately, you'll get very little out of trying to play this piece just now, because you just won't be able to play it well enough, and anyone musical to whom you play it will recognise that straight away.

There's a very informative thread here http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1092594417 which has a litany of pieces you will probably love playing, and from which, importantly, you'll reap enormous benefit.  Don't neglect your teacher's expertise, either!  Be sure to ask his own opinion.
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breadboy
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2004, 06:02:55 AM »

Quote
Hey

I don't mean this to sound remotely harsh - take it as a useful rule of thumb, in fact, for future reference: if you can't see WHY a piece is hard in the first place, then it's probably quite a bit out of reach of your current abilities, even with a lot of work.

In this instance, one of the hardest things about the fantaisie-impromptu is the fact that it involves simple time in one hand, played against compound time in the other.

I know where you're coming from on this, cos I've been in your shoes before (although admittedly with slightly more modest aspirations than to play the fant.-imp. straight after für elise!), and, believe me, it's not worth it.  Even though it might in the long run prove a gruelling crash course in technique, the piece requires years of playing in order to have the MUSICAL experience to play it well - and that's not to put you down, since that's true for everyone.

The fact is that it will probably prove a pretty unpleasant experience in the end, and will sap the real meaning of playing the piano out of what you're doing, since you'll simply be trying to beat your "Everest".  Ultimately, you'll get very little out of trying to play this piece just now, because you just won't be able to play it well enough, and anyone musical to whom you play it will recognise that straight away.

There's a very informative thread here http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1092594417 which has a litany of pieces you will probably love playing, and from which, importantly, you'll reap enormous benefit.  Don't neglect your teacher's expertise, either!  Be sure to ask his own opinion.


i noticed that it was compound to simple today while looking over the piece, but as I learn both hands seperately, perfect them at 120-150 percent of the final speed, then combine them, it shouldn't be that much of a problem until i have to put them together, and by then i should be able to do that Smiley

Oh, and this is by no means my everest, that would be something like la campanella, rach3, or something else thats hard, this is just to introduce myself to a nice show piece.

God bless
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Swan
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2004, 06:15:15 AM »

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if you can't see WHY a piece is hard in the first place, then it's probably quite a bit out of reach of your current abilities, even with a lot of work.


Great statement Steve!  
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Spatula
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2004, 06:14:25 AM »

Quote


Try waiting a few YEARS.  Seriously.  If you want to be able to do justice to it.  But however, if you want to do it for your own enjoyment, then I see no problem with that.




Okay from a scale of 1 to 10 for crazyiness, 10 being wanting to "play the Rach 3 with 4 days/weeks/month of musical training", this PERSONALLY rates as a 7.8

Yeah the Fan Imp is *cough cough* hard for your skill level at what 3 months?  
The level from Fur Elise to Fan Imp is So far stretched its not funny Breadboy.

I don't wanna rain on your parade but you gotta be realistic, so don't bother hating me.  

If you really want to, go ahead but I bet dollars to donuts you're gonna filp over the difficulty.

As a matter of fact, this is the 7th time I've said this but I been studying piano for 11 years and I just accomplished 1 and a half pages of that Fan Imp piece in 4 months..

So yeah..you seriously ought wait and keep practicing..

Eventually you'll get it and thank me.  Trust me.

(Don't take this as discouragement, but a sight from perspective of really what you're going up against)
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Spatula
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2004, 06:16:55 AM »

Quote
Hey



In this instance, one of the hardest things about the fantaisie-impromptu is the fact that it involves simple time in one hand, played against compound time in the other.

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1092594417 which has a litany of pieces you will probably love playing, and from which, importantly, you'll reap enormous benefit.  Don't neglect your teacher's expertise, either!  Be sure to ask his own opinion.


Seriously it took me 3 weeks just to nail down that part where the 2 hands come in.  I tried everything from tapping chopsticks to metronome to get that BL00DY timing right.  
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Spatula
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2004, 06:21:16 AM »

Hold up, sorry Breadman(boy)

I gotta get this straight..

did you mean that you've taken 3 months to learn Fur Elise alone, but had previous experience prior, OR

does it mean that you've only learned to play piano for 3 months...

There's a BIG difference in the phrasing of your statement there.

If say you've practiced for say 5 years then want to do it, then my deepest appologies.   Grin  Lips Sealed

I just get edgy now... especially ppl going oh... I'm 5 years old and I wanna do the Tchaikovsky PC Nr 1.   Angry

GRRRRR
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wintervind
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2004, 07:39:53 AM »

Quote


Seriously it took me 3 weeks just to nail down that part where the 2 hands come in.  I tried everything from tapping chopsticks to metronome to get that BL00DY timing right.  

Really? I never found this 3against4 very difficult.
I guess we are all different................... Smiley
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breadboy
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2004, 08:09:19 AM »

Quote
Hold up, sorry Breadman(boy)

I gotta get this straight..

did you mean that you've taken 3 months to learn Fur Elise alone, but had previous experience prior, OR

does it mean that you've only learned to play piano for 3 months...

There's a BIG difference in the phrasing of your statement there.

If say you've practiced for say 5 years then want to do it, then my deepest appologies.   Grin  Lips Sealed

I just get edgy now... especially ppl going oh... I'm 5 years old and I wanna do the Tchaikovsky PC Nr 1.   Angry

GRRRRR


i meant that i had mabye 1 month of just messing around before i started lessons and started thinking about playing fur elise, i've probably really been playing it for two months.

total piano play time at most: 4 months

God bless
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Spatula
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2004, 01:50:19 AM »

Quote

Really? I never found this 3against4 very difficult.
I guess we are all different................... Smiley

Before I couldn't even rub my stomach and punch my head, talk about lack of motor skills and coordination.

HOLY SH1T MY FINGERS ARE TYPING GOOD JOB GUYS!

or else it'd look like this:

LJSDOQ#UR OIJ O RJJOSFO:QJOJL JIO:W ERJV ()#TUPOJFOIUJ #QWI%JO FKJQ)(#% )(OISU&mbM) )ew(
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falling4ever3
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2004, 03:38:11 AM »

yes i have a question also, i've been learning the piano for 3 days now, and i've alreadly learned me all of the notes. well except for that middle one and the black keys, i just finished oh when the saints, and thinking about starting the rackmanismoff 3'rd concertee, i don't think it should be TO difficult

any comments?


Roll Eyes
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Nana_Ama
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2004, 04:53:24 AM »

:-/  eh... maybe you should wait a few years on that one... even if you have learned all of the notes, music is a lot more than just that.  It's expression, and even if you are able to learn Rachmaninov's third if you don't play it expressively it won't really be music.  
Do you have a teacher by the way?
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breadboy
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2004, 03:24:56 PM »

Quote
yes i have a question also, i've been learning the piano for 3 days now, and i've alreadly learned me all of the notes. well except for that middle one and the black keys, i just finished oh when the saints, and thinking about starting the rackmanismoff 3'rd concertee, i don't think it should be TO difficult

any comments?
Roll Eyes



"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes
this composition, (2) without good learning methods it can seem impossible to learn, (3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched, (4) the challenges of the piece are ideal for illustration purposes, and (5) this is the kind of piece that you will be working on all your life in order to do “incredible things” with it, so you might aswell start now! In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece. There is no better demonstration of the efficacy of the methods of this book than showing how easily you can learn this composition."
-C. C. Chang

God bless
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steve
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2004, 09:39:04 PM »

Quote



"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes this composition


don't count on it  Wink
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Nana_Ama
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2004, 02:12:46 AM »

Quote



"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes
this composition, (2) without good learning methods it can seem impossible to learn, (3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched, (4) the challenges of the piece are ideal for illustration purposes, and (5) this is the kind of piece that you will be working on all your life in order to do “incredible things” with it, so you might aswell start now! In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece. There is no better demonstration of the efficacy of the methods of this book than showing how easily you can learn this composition."
-C. C. Chang

God bless


You know what.  If you really want to play this piece, than by all means play it!  There is NOTHING stopping you, and if you really love and want to play it, there isn't any reason why you shouldn't.  Life is too short.
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breadboy
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2004, 02:49:03 AM »

Quote


don't count on it  Wink


that is of course an overstatement, not everyone likes it, but most people probably do, its not something like the hammerklavier or atonal music that is tough to digest and only appriciated by a certain audience.

God bless
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Swan
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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2004, 02:53:09 AM »

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In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started




Let's consider the words 'most students'.  He's not referring to people who have been playing the piano for three months!  Most students who would take on this piece have been studying the piano for years.  

The only way to know if something is easy or hard is to try it.   And you've already made up your mind that you are going to try it, despite the advice given by others, so go for it.  By all means try it.  My thoughts are if it has taken you three months to learn Fur Elise, then the going has been hard.  For you, Fur Elise has been 'hard,' not easy.  I teach theme A of Fur Elise to my ten year olds in one lesson, by the next week they have it memorised.  You're only half way through theme b!   This to me (as a teacher) says the Fantasie is way out of your league.  

Now if you said it only took me one month to learn Fur Elise AND these other pieces, I wouldn't be so skeptical of your ability.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine to take your time to learn a piece, but as a teacher I couldn't bear the thought of a student stumbling their way through one piece of music for more than six months or a year.  At the end of it, big whoop, you can play one piece by Chopin.  In the same amount of time, you could have added some trully beautiful pieces to your repertoire, experimented with many different styles, been exposed to different composers from different eras.  

Anyway, I'm ranting far too much.  Tongue  
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breadboy
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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2004, 06:25:20 AM »

Quote



Let's consider the words 'most students'.  He's not referring to people who have been playing the piano for three months!  Most students who would take on this piece have been studying the piano for years.  

The only way to know if something is easy or hard is to try it.   And you've already made up your mind that you are going to try it, despite the advice given by others, so go for it.  By all means try it.  My thoughts are if it has taken you three months to learn Fur Elise, then the going has been hard.  For you, Fur Elise has been 'hard,' not easy.  I teach theme A of Fur Elise to my ten year olds in one lesson, by the next week they have it memorised.  You're only half way through theme b!   This to me (as a teacher) says the Fantasie is way out of your league.  

Now if you said it only took me one month to learn Fur Elise AND these other pieces, I wouldn't be so skeptical of your ability.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine to take your time to learn a piece, but as a teacher I couldn't bear the thought of a student stumbling their way through one piece of music for more than six months or a year.  At the end of it, big whoop, you can play one piece by Chopin.  In the same amount of time, you could have added some trully beautiful pieces to your repertoire, experimented with many different styles, been exposed to different composers from different eras.  

Anyway, I'm ranting far too much.  Tongue  


Just so you know, I'm learning all of Fur Elise, not just the first theme.

As to who he is referring to with most students, he is most definatly referring to me as I meet the skill levels described earlier in the book. Fur Elise being a difficult piece, (4th year) I think someone who can finish it in 3 months would fit the profile.

I assume you teach theme A of Fur Elise to your 10 year olds after a few months/years of playing. And as for the interuptions, I'll bet those 10 year olds don't pick that up after 1 lesson Smiley

Fur Elise is rated a year 4 piece, so I would think completeing it in 3 months with no prior keyboard experience is at least a good display of promise. I learned the hardest part of the piece in under a week, so I'm definatly get much faster Smiley

Big whoop? Are you kidding me? If I can play 7-12 months and be at the level of the Fantasie (a year 8 piece i think) that is one awesome accomplishment. Most teachers wouldn't come close to promising something like that. Even Bernhard doesn't promise that level of sucess that quick.

What do you mean you can't bear the thought of learning a piece over a 6 month period? Do you play Hammerklavier, Alkan's Symphony, or any other substantial piece of music? For some of the real masterpieces it really does take time (Especially if you haven't been playing that long). But in all honesty I was shooting for getting through Fur Elise in 6 months. Now that I am way ahead of schedule I'm looking at getting through the Fantasie in 4 months or so and then going for something difficult... say La Campanella Smiley

God bless
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.COM
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2004, 06:34:33 AM »

...Amen Grin
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2004, 04:04:21 AM »

Now now, don't get your knickers in such a twist you'll cut off the blood supply!

Quote
I'm learning all of Fur Elise, not just the first theme.


Yes, I know, you've already said you've learned all of the first bit and almost finished  the first interruption.
Quote
everything at the beginning and almost the whole first interuption is done,


Quote
Fur Elise being a difficult piece, (4th year)


What makes Fur Elise difficult (4th grade standard) are the interruptions - theme b and c.  "Everything at the beginning" theme A, is very easy and that's why I teach my ten year olds this part (and no they haven't had months of lessons - theme A is a good way to get kids to play hands together for the first time)

Quote
And as for the interuptions, I'll bet those 10 year olds don't pick that up after 1 lesson

Smiley of course not!  I wouldn't even attempt to teach them.

Quote
Big whoop? Are you kidding me? If I can play 7-12 months and be at the level of the Fantasie (a year 8 piece i think)

That's my point, you could play ONE year 8 piece.  You would not be at 'year eight' standard. To be accredited with year eight through most examination boards around the world (and they are the ones who go around setting up the 'standards') you would need to be able to play at least four pieces of the same difficulty, undergo aural tests, sight reading at about grade 5 or six standard pieces, general knowledge about the four different eras/periods, not to mention all the technical work of scales and arpeggios.

Quote
What do you mean you can't bear the thought of learning a piece over a 6 month period?


Actually I said:
Quote
as a teacher I couldn't bear the thought of a student stumbling their way through one piece of music for more than six months or a year.


I explain why in this thread
http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1093275757
 
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breadboy
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2004, 05:12:11 AM »

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Now now, don't get your knickers in such a twist you'll cut off the blood supply!


Yes, I know, you've already said you've learned all of the first bit and almost finished  the first interruption.


What makes Fur Elise difficult (4th grade standard) are the interruptions - theme b and c.  "Everything at the beginning" theme A, is very easy and that's why I teach my ten year olds this part (and no they haven't had months of lessons - theme A is a good way to get kids to play hands together for the first time)

Smiley of course not!  I wouldn't even attempt to teach them.

That's my point, you could play ONE year 8 piece.  You would not be at 'year eight' standard. To be accredited with year eight through most examination boards around the world (and they are the ones who go around setting up the 'standards') you would need to be able to play at least four pieces of the same difficulty, undergo aural tests, sight reading at about grade 5 or six standard pieces, general knowledge about the four different eras/periods, not to mention all the technical work of scales and arpeggios.


Actually I said:

I explain why in this thread
http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1093275757
 


so your telling me that for the first time putting hands together your 10 year olds can play the first part (how much of it all 20 something bars?) of fur elise in it's entirity and actually sound like its supost to (rhythmically, dynamically, etc.)?

As for how much I would know after finishing the piece, if I pick up another easy piece say Rondo all turca I would learn it much quicker than Fur Elise. Just like with other instruments, if you can play something really hard you can probably figure out how to play something easier much quicker than if you didn't know something at high difficulty. I can already see the effects of this in Fur Elise as the last part of the first inturuption took no time at all compared with getting the first part of the A section down.

After completeing the Fantasie i'll probably move onto something much harder than that, until I get to the Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2, the chopin etudes or all the other stuff I want to learn. I'm interested in being able to play the hardest stuff in the shortest possible time, and this looks like what is going to get me there. All the other things, sight-reading, theory, can come later. Right now, I want to play the best stuff ASAP.

God bless

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Peachy_Keen
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2004, 06:27:46 AM »

Are you asking a question or are you trying to start an argument with the entire forum? You want to know if you are qualified to start this piece? The answer is simple, no.

Fur Elise in three months is good but not impressive, and is certainly no indication of virtuosic talent which you appear to believe you have.

Regardless of the semantics of anyone's arguments; You seem to have already convinced yourself that you're ready, so why continue the conversation? Go give it your best shot, it'll be a learning experience.
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klavierkonzerte
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2004, 01:17:01 AM »

actually this piece is very easy
IF YOU PRACTICE IT RIGHT.

i don't know if this was mentioned befor,
practise the left hand arpegios as chords
play only the first note of the arpegio then play the rest of it as a chord
to be more clear play:
c# then g# c# E as a chord
then E then g# c# E as a chord
(man i'm so bad at explaining things  Grin   )

practise like this 2 hours a day for 2 months.

did anyone practise it like this??
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Spatula
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2004, 01:19:16 AM »

The technique once you get it nailed down with the timing makes it easy.

BUT!!! and here the BIG BUT! not BUTT,

Your RH has to be kept at a p or even pp in most passages, even when it's written forte.  

The reason should be obvious: there are tons and tonnes of RH passages with intricate details, and when you play too fast too loud, it loses its emotion.  That's what so hard about this piece is fast movement to shape each of the phrases properly, but not blow the whole thing with a presto tempo yet making all your notes sound like FFF.

This is an elegant piece, not a show off piece.  In my opinion any way.  let's just say its not like his revolutionary etude.

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breadboy
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2004, 11:17:28 AM »

Quote


Your RH has to be kept at a p or even pp in most passages, even when it's written forte.  




Personally, When a composer writes forte im obliged to play it that way Smiley

God bless
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dreamaurora
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2004, 12:05:18 PM »

I don't know who is more comical: Breadboy or Piano^-Ger?
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dreamaurora
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2004, 12:17:37 PM »

Quote

Big whoop? Are you kidding me? If I can play 7-12 months and be at the level of the Fantasie (a year 8 piece i think) that is one awesome accomplishment. Most teachers wouldn't come close to promising something like that. Even Bernhard doesn't promise that level of sucess that quick.


Quote

All the other things, sight-reading, theory, can come later. Right now, I want to play the best stuff ASAP.


These 2 statements alone display your impetuosity and lack of humility and patience and your part. I was once in your shoes, impatient and overestimating my own abilities, I picked overly difficult pieces to learn thinking that they were 'easy'. It's easy to deceive one self into thinking that one played well without feedback from others, I knew because last time I used to think I played 'well' until I started listening more to other pianists play and some well-meaning teachers gave sound advises to me. I have since matured in my thinking and for one thing, making good music is my main goal, not trying to play harder pieces.

My main advice to you, ask yourself are you serving your own ego or the music? I know its emotionally rewarding to play technically difficult pieces as I experience before, but I knew I was cheating myself, I was depriving myself of good and balanced musical development by my stubborn attitude, which seem to be in common with you now. It takes a lot of humility to play piano well, ask yourself, say if you get the best teacher on the planet and he gave you say a very simple mozart sonata to play, will you be insulted because it's too 'easy' for you? Or will you be joyous that you are able to learn new musical insights in the sonata you are going to play? Enough ranting, ponder what I said just now.
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Derek
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« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2004, 07:23:32 PM »

I say go ahead and start it. But don't set any goals for yourself such as: I MUST be able to play such and such part of this piece by THIS TIME.  Just work on it, and work on it, and work onit. Then put it on the shelf for a while, then come back to it. This is actually a pretty good strategy for an amateur who wants to learn a piece a bit beyond his current ability.  Thats how I've been learning fantasy impromptu. on again, off again. Then recently I started working VERY hard on it, and my teacher says he was very pleased with my work on it. There's a lot MORE to do beyond what I did, of course, which he is helping me with.
But in the final analysis...go ahead and start it. It can't hurt you. Just don't think you suck because it takes you months or even years to master the piece. You play the piano because you love it, not so that you can compare yourself to prodigies/people with insane amounts of raw ability.

I'd like to add that this lust that many young pianists have to conquer hard pieces is kind of alien to me. Alongside fantasy impromptu I have very strong desire to learn some simple pieces such as chopin's waltzes, bach inventions, and so forth. What is so desirable about playing incredibly hard stuff? I just play what gives me goosebumps. and fantasy impromptu just happens to be one of those pieces.
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breadboy
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2004, 06:55:43 AM »

Quote



These 2 statements alone display your impetuosity and lack of humility and patience and your part. I was once in your shoes, impatient and overestimating my own abilities, I picked overly difficult pieces to learn thinking that they were 'easy'. It's easy to deceive one self into thinking that one played well without feedback from others, I knew because last time I used to think I played 'well' until I started listening more to other pianists play and some well-meaning teachers gave sound advises to me. I have since matured in my thinking and for one thing, making good music is my main goal, not trying to play harder pieces.

My main advice to you, ask yourself are you serving your own ego or the music? I know its emotionally rewarding to play technically difficult pieces as I experience before, but I knew I was cheating myself, I was depriving myself of good and balanced musical development by my stubborn attitude, which seem to be in common with you now. It takes a lot of humility to play piano well, ask yourself, say if you get the best teacher on the planet and he gave you say a very simple mozart sonata to play, will you be insulted because it's too 'easy' for you? Or will you be joyous that you are able to learn new musical insights in the sonata you are going to play? Enough ranting, ponder what I said just now.



Smiley I'm impetuous, and lacking in both humilty and patience... wow... cool.

1. impetuous can just mean characterized by sudden forcefulness of emotion (i.e. passion) so i'll take that one

2. Personally, I would assume a massive declaration of personal character based on less than a paragraph of information cut out of a forum post to be a sign of a lack of patience and humility... but thats just me. I don't overestimate my abilites pianistically. I know what sounds good as I spend time reading and listening to both classical music literature and music. I get feedback from plenty of people.

3. It is almost always a mistake in stating a point to assume that your situation mirrors someone elses closely. It almost always differs to some degree.

4. It matters very little wether I am serving my ego, the music, or the man in the moon. All the preceeding are statements of value and in this case they are based on subjects without absolutes. In other words, as far as music is concerned; to each his own.

5. It doesn't take a great deal of humility or anything to play piano well. (there are only 3 types of pianists..., godowsky's passacaglia is impossible... etudes impossible... - Horowitz)

6. I play what I want to play for reasons I find acceptable. This isn't systematic theology. There are no set rules which govern music or how it is to be played. (if you think these rules exist, check out music from other regions of the world and see how they offend your sense of what is and is not music.)

7. Chang's book say that the Fantasie really isn't that hard, so im not all by myself here.

8. I'm not going to piddle with a Mozart sonata... I'd rather get to the edge and be playing Godowsky's passacaglia in a few years rather then be worried about the easier stuff now. I always have time to go back and pick up the easy stuff. Smiley

9. I need a cookie... someone please make this post end and then get me a cookie.
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ted
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2004, 12:42:38 PM »

Breadboy:

As a child I had a tremendous infatuation with this piece, with the marvellous sound of it. I taught myself to play it, badly, when very young. Of course when I played it proudly for an audition, along with the Rhapsody In Blue, for my new teacher he laughed and said I sounded drunk and didn't have a clue what I was doing. By rights he should never have accepted me as a pupil but he said he couldn't possibly turn down a kid determined enough to teach himself these pieces.

A few lessons later it sounded much better, and if I hadn't struggled and learned it I may never have been a pupil of this marvellous man, teacher, friend and mentor from whom I learned so much.  

So you can't always make rules about these things. But please, do it for the music, not for an accomplishment of finger dexterity - it's such a lovely work.
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mound
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2004, 05:33:24 PM »

I'm not even going to try to argue if it's appropriate after 3 months, or even possible.. that's been beaten to death..

I am curious though, perhaps this is totally off the wall, when you say it doesn't look that hard, are you referring to the actual complete score?

I was at my parents house last weekend, looking through a big stack of old music my brothers and I used during our lessons as kids. In one book both Fur Elise and the Fantasie Impromptu were presented. Each was  presented in 2-3 pages, and both were hugely simplified versions of the basic thematic content of the piece.. shortened and simplified versions for pedagogical purposes.  I believe I sight read both of them in the same sitting (and my sight reading skills still need alot of work) and I thought "how sweet" but it certainly isn't the Fantaisie Impromptu!

Of course, you may in fact be looking at the actual score, in which case, well, 3 months.. I don't buy it, but if you pull it off, by all means, share with us a recording!

Good luck!  Smiley

-Paul
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one_wing3d_ang3l
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2004, 05:58:53 PM »

the answer to ur question breadboy is yes..i was in ur shoes not too long ago and only had 1 yr experience. i learn't this piece and fink i gave it justice.
this piece is not for the weak soul.very techical.
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xvimbi
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2004, 06:01:43 PM »

As everyone already noticed, breadboy is going ahead with this piece. Whether it's a good idea or not, please let us know how you are doing as you go along. Tell us about the obstacles you run into and how you are solving the problems. If you have the facilities, record your progress and let us listen to it. I think, we all could learn something here.

Every now and then, somebody is asking along the same lines; people give their advice, and then we don't hear about it anymore. We don't even know if our advice was good or bad.
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one_wing3d_ang3l
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2004, 06:06:57 PM »

i fink he can do it dispite the others here who have doubted him. my teacher even doubted me in playing this piece and said i needed 7 yrs more. nonsense. i sure taught him a lesson
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chopiabin
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2004, 02:44:00 AM »

Quote


5. It doesn't take a great deal of humility or anything to play piano well. (there are only 3 types of pianists..., godowsky's passacaglia is impossible... etudes impossible... - Horowitz)


What the hell does this mean?

Play whatever you want, but please don't demean Mozart by saying "I'm not going to piddle witha Mozart sonata." Mozart is one of the greatest musicians who ever lived. Have you ever tried to play a Mozart sonata? They are deceptively difficult. You can't hide in his music like you can in a lot of Chopin. My teacher who has played pretty much everything has told me many times the one of the hardest things he ever ran into in over 35 years was perfectin the beginning of a Mozart.

Play whatever you want, but please, have humility. You asked for the opinions of people who generally have much more experience than you - you have no reason to act indignant.
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breadboy
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2004, 03:59:22 AM »

Quote


What the hell does this mean?

Play whatever you want, but please don't demean Mozart by saying "I'm not going to piddle witha Mozart sonata." Mozart is one of the greatest musicians who ever lived. Have you ever tried to play a Mozart sonata? They are deceptively difficult. You can't hide in his music like you can in a lot of Chopin. My teacher who has played pretty much everything has told me many times the one of the hardest things he ever ran into in over 35 years was perfectin the beginning of a Mozart.

Play whatever you want, but please, have humility. You asked for the opinions of people who generally have much more experience than you - you have no reason to act indignant.


my point was that horowitz was a wonderful pianist and wasn't very humble at all. all of those things i cited were little horowitz quotes such as... there are only 3 types of pianists; jewish, gay and bad. That of course isn't the most humble thing ever. He also said certain pieces were unplayable knowing his contemporaries could play them... also not very humble.

mozarts music is not very hard and that is a fact. wether its good or not is a completely different issue. I love lots of mozarts music, but I'm not going to play it now because it doesn't get me where I want to go as quick as I want to go there. Also compared to they
Beethoven sonatas mozarts' pale rather quickly.
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breadboy
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2004, 04:08:16 AM »

seriously people, i've heard a few stories about not doing justice to the piece and can understand your concern. I just remembered for some reason that people routinely trot out pieces that arn't anywhere near finished and play them at recitals to the peril of their audience. I can assure you however that I wouldn't ever do that in any case Smiley. I don't like to listen to music played poorly at any level and wouldn't consider the piece finished until it is at concert quality.

example: I would never ever play something like this at a recital http://chopinforum.com/~agitato2219/08.mp3
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one_wing3d_ang3l
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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2004, 07:09:57 AM »

any1 noe the name of that piece bread boy posted?
i want to listen to a better recording of it thx
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Spatula
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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2004, 07:34:34 AM »

Quote
any1 noe the name of that piece bread boy posted?
i want to listen to a better recording of it thx


Simple...

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement.

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