should i start the fantasie impromptu?

[rohansahai]

BRAVO BREADBOY! GO FOR IT!!
Wow breadboy, what a fantastic achivement! Just 3 months to learn the Fur Elise!! OMG! Start the fantasie imp RIGHT away.
U know? I'll tell you something!
There are two kinds of pianists. The first, who listen to their teachers, start with the easier pieces (not even the fur elise) and learn tens of them (pretty simple ones) in the first year. Then, they kinda get a lil better and learn, say, the mozart sonatas (4-5 of 'em) the next year. Then, they improve a bit further and learn some of the easier Beethoven sonatas (another 4-5) the next year and THEN FINALLY AFTER 3-4 years start tackling pieces like Fantasie Impromptu, and the etudes n stuff!
Hence (please note), their repertoire after about 3-4 years consists of some 4-5 mozart sonatas, about 4 beethoven sonatas, the fantasie impromtu, and say 2 of chopin's etudes! That's about 3 ready programs to perform, each having a technical showpiece at the end in the fantasie impromptu and the 2 etudes!
But the SECOND lot (in which you belong), are the ones who I call the "Modern Geniuses". He take just 3-4 months to learn the Fur Elise. Then, he spend another 2 months deciding whether to go for the impromptu or not (like you are doing now!). Then he picks up the score and start! Considering that you took 3-4 months to study Fur Elise, he takes about the same time to learn slowly each hands separate the first part of the impromptu. Then, (considering that he's a quick learner) he runs through the middle section in ... what about 15 days. Then he comes back to the part where the initial thing is repeated (he's already learnt it). Finally he comes to the very treacherous "ending" which he takes about another 15 days to play "slowly" each hands separate.
Then, after the relatively easier work is over, he takes another 4-5 months to play hands separately, but at the actual speed!!!!!!!! And of course, another 3-4 months to get it hands together at the real pace!!! NOW, he gets down to interpretation. Remember, that the only piece he's learnt in his 2 yrs of study so far is the fur elise(so he can't give a concert yet). So, he starts with the phrasing n stuff and master it in about another 3 months! DONE!!!!! The fantasie impromptu is ready for performance! And you've done it in  just 2 years (whereas the previous guy took 3-4 years). Now, you feel wonderful and start with, say the revolutionary etude by chopin. Considering that you've now gained QUITE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE, by learning the impromptu, you take just about a year to wrap it up! Hence after a lil more than 3 years, your repertoire is:
Beethoven: Fur Elise
Chopin      : Fantasie Impromptu in C# minor op. 66
                    Etude in C minor op. 10-12 "Revolutionary"

Compare this with the earlier guy whose repertoire is:
Mozart:         Sonata in C major K. 545
                     Sonata in A major K. 331
                     Sonata in B flat     K. 570
                     Fantasie in D minor
Beethoven:
                     Sonata in F minor op. 2-1
                     Sonata in C minor op. 10-1
                     Sonata in G major op. 49-1
                     Rondo in C major op. 51-2
Chopin:
                     Fantasie Impromptu
                     Etude in A flat op. 10-10
                     Etude in F minor op. 25-2

DECIDE WHICHEVER IS BETTER AND GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bernhard]

BRAVO BREADBOY! GO FOR IT!!
Wow breadboy, what a fantastic achivement! Just 3 months to learn the Fur Elise!! OMG! Start the fantasie imp RIGHT away.
U know? I'll tell you something!
There are two kinds of pianists. The first, who listen to their teachers, start with the easier pieces (not even the fur elise) and learn tens of them (pretty simple ones) in the first year. Then, they kinda get a lil better and learn, say, the mozart sonatas (4-5 of 'em) the next year. Then, they improve a bit further and learn some of the easier Beethoven sonatas (another 4-5) the next year and THEN FINALLY AFTER 3-4 years start tackling pieces like Fantasie Impromptu, and the etudes n stuff!
Hence (please note), their repertoire after about 3-4 years consists of some 4-5 mozart sonatas, about 4 beethoven sonatas, the fantasie impromtu, and say 2 of chopin's etudes! That's about 3 ready programs to perform, each having a technical showpiece at the end in the fantasie impromptu and the 2 etudes!
But the SECOND lot (in which you belong), are the ones who I call the "Modern Geniuses". He take just 3-4 months to learn the Fur Elise. Then, he spend another 2 months deciding whether to go for the impromptu or not (like you are doing now!). Then he picks up the score and start! Considering that you took 3-4 months to study Fur Elise, he takes about the same time to learn slowly each hands separate the first part of the impromptu. Then, (considering that he's a quick learner) he runs through the middle section in ... what about 15 days. Then he comes back to the part where the initial thing is repeated (he's already learnt it). Finally he comes to the very treacherous "ending" which he takes about another 15 days to play "slowly" each hands separate.
Then, after the relatively easier work is over, he takes another 4-5 months to play hands separately, but at the actual speed!!!!!!!! And of course, another 3-4 months to get it hands together at the real pace!!! NOW, he gets down to interpretation. Remember, that the only piece he's learnt in his 2 yrs of study so far is the fur elise(so he can't give a concert yet). So, he starts with the phrasing n stuff and master it in about another 3 months! DONE!!!!! The fantasie impromptu is ready for performance! And you've done it in  just 2 years (whereas the previous guy took 3-4 years). Now, you feel wonderful and start with, say the revolutionary etude by chopin. Considering that you've now gained QUITE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE, by learning the impromptu, you take just about a year to wrap it up! Hence after a lil more than 3 years, your repertoire is:
Beethoven: Fur Elise
Chopin      : Fantasie Impromptu in C# minor op. 66
                    Etude in C minor op. 10-12 "Revolutionary"

Compare this with the earlier guy whose repertoire is:
Mozart:         Sonata in C major K. 545
                     Sonata in A major K. 331
                     Sonata in B flat     K. 570
                     Fantasie in D minor
Beethoven:
                     Sonata in F minor op. 2-1
                     Sonata in C minor op. 10-1
                     Sonata in G major op. 49-1
                     Rondo in C major op. 51-2
Chopin:
                     Fantasie Impromptu
                     Etude in A flat op. 10-10
                     Etude in F minor op. 25-2

DECIDE WHICHEVER IS BETTER AND GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent, Rohansahai!

[rohansahai]

DECIDE WHICHEVER IS BETTER AND GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent, Rohansahai!

Thanks Bernhard!

[breadboy]

BRAVO BREADBOY! GO FOR IT!!
Wow breadboy, what a fantastic achivement! Just 3 months to learn the Fur Elise!! OMG! Start the fantasie imp RIGHT away.
U know? I'll tell you something!
There are two kinds of pianists. The first, who listen to their teachers, start with the easier pieces (not even the fur elise) and learn tens of them (pretty simple ones) in the first year. Then, they kinda get a lil better and learn, say, the mozart sonatas (4-5 of 'em) the next year. Then, they improve a bit further and learn some of the easier Beethoven sonatas (another 4-5) the next year and THEN FINALLY AFTER 3-4 years start tackling pieces like Fantasie Impromptu, and the etudes n stuff!
Hence (please note), their repertoire after about 3-4 years consists of some 4-5 mozart sonatas, about 4 beethoven sonatas, the fantasie impromtu, and say 2 of chopin's etudes! That's about 3 ready programs to perform, each having a technical showpiece at the end in the fantasie impromptu and the 2 etudes!
But the SECOND lot (in which you belong), are the ones who I call the "Modern Geniuses". He take just 3-4 months to learn the Fur Elise. Then, he spend another 2 months deciding whether to go for the impromptu or not (like you are doing now!). Then he picks up the score and start! Considering that you took 3-4 months to study Fur Elise, he takes about the same time to learn slowly each hands separate the first part of the impromptu. Then, (considering that he's a quick learner) he runs through the middle section in ... what about 15 days. Then he comes back to the part where the initial thing is repeated (he's already learnt it). Finally he comes to the very treacherous "ending" which he takes about another 15 days to play "slowly" each hands separate.
Then, after the relatively easier work is over, he takes another 4-5 months to play hands separately, but at the actual speed!!!!!!!! And of course, another 3-4 months to get it hands together at the real pace!!! NOW, he gets down to interpretation. Remember, that the only piece he's learnt in his 2 yrs of study so far is the fur elise(so he can't give a concert yet). So, he starts with the phrasing n stuff and master it in about another 3 months! DONE!!!!! The fantasie impromptu is ready for performance! And you've done it in  just 2 years (whereas the previous guy took 3-4 years). Now, you feel wonderful and start with, say the revolutionary etude by chopin. Considering that you've now gained QUITE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE, by learning the impromptu, you take just about a year to wrap it up! Hence after a lil more than 3 years, your repertoire is:
Beethoven: Fur Elise
Chopin      : Fantasie Impromptu in C# minor op. 66
                    Etude in C minor op. 10-12 "Revolutionary"

Compare this with the earlier guy whose repertoire is:
Mozart:         Sonata in C major K. 545
                     Sonata in A major K. 331
                     Sonata in B flat     K. 570
                     Fantasie in D minor
Beethoven:
                     Sonata in F minor op. 2-1
                     Sonata in C minor op. 10-1
                     Sonata in G major op. 49-1
                     Rondo in C major op. 51-2
Chopin:
                     Fantasie Impromptu
                     Etude in A flat op. 10-10
                     Etude in F minor op. 25-2

DECIDE WHICHEVER IS BETTER AND GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First off, I never practice anything slow (at least not for very long), i play hands seperate at 100-150 percent speed on everything then put things together in sections.

You seem to preclude the possibility of learning more than one thing at a time here. My repertoire at the end of my first year will look like this:

Fur Elise
Mozart K331
Part of the fantasie
Beethoven’s Pathetique (at least partial)

The second year rap up should look like this:

Chopin Scherzo no. 2
Chopin Ballade no 1 (at least partial anyway)
Beethoven Moonlight (the whole thing)
Start la campanella (could take a year or two to really get a handle it)

Anyway, but the end of the 5th year I’d like to start on Godowsky’s Passacaglia and Alkan’s symphony and although a bit grand those are my goals for now.

My main problem now is finding the time to practice as I have tons of stuff to do, but my actual playing is coming along swimmingly.
As to concert giving, the only concerts I’d give would be for myself, my girlfriend, or family and friends, I’m not playing piano to actually give recitals.

Also tone down the sarcasm if you could

[breadboy]

First of all hearing someone doing Fur Elise then moving to Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, how do we even measure the distance in difficulty that is? That is different for everyone. For most of us its like black and white the difficulty, but even I have met beginners who are frighteningly talented.

I reckon you should always be open to put any music infront of yourself and try to play it. But as a matter of efficiency, if you find yourself stuck mid way after a month or two choose something easier! Where you waste your time on a piece which might take you 1 year of devoted attention you could learn 10 smaller pieces and really build your skills. Still theres no problems studying a harder piece along side with smaller stuff. Maybe after so many years of practice on smaller pieces when you tackle "harder" peices they will seem easier because you have all the tools and experience from previous peices.

So i reckon by all means start the fantasie impromptu, but make sure you don't waste your time or frustrate yourself.

what a good post 

[rohansahai]

First off, I never practice anything slow (at least not for very long), i play hands seperate at 100-150 percent speed on everything then put things together in sections.

You seem to preclude the possibility of learning more than one thing at a time here. My repertoire at the end of my first year will look like this:

Fur Elise
Mozart K331
Part of the fantasie
Beethoven’s Pathetique (at least partial)

The second year rap up should look like this:

Chopin Scherzo no. 2
Chopin Ballade no 1 (at least partial anyway)
Beethoven Moonlight (the whole thing)
Start la campanella (could take a year or two to really get a handle it)

Anyway, but the end of the 5th year I’d like to start on Godowsky’s Passacaglia and Alkan’s symphony and although a bit grand those are my goals for now.

My main problem now is finding the time to practice as I have tons of stuff to do, but my actual playing is coming along swimmingly.
As to concert giving, the only concerts I’d give would be for myself, my girlfriend, or family and friends, I’m not playing piano to actually give recitals.

Also tone down the sarcasm if you could

Sorry for the sarcasm breadboy but I can't see the practicality of your ambitions!
You say you've taken 3-4 months to learn a piece as simple as fur elise. How do you think you can master K. 331 (more diff. and much longer than fur elise), fantasie, (again more diff than fur elise) and pathetique (MUCH MUCH more difficult than the fur elise)! And the rest??LOL. I don't really need to talk about them. PLUS, YOU SAY YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO PRACTICE!!!!!!
Well, I've given my view point, so has everyone else! If you think you can still do it,well, GO AHEAD!!

[Sydney]

I started my piano playing with Chopin's Polonaise Op53 As-dur. In other words, I started my piano study because I wanted to play this piece.
It took me about 1 month to read the notes and play the music of the very first page, however, in 1 couple of months time, I could play almost all of the part of the work. After 6 months, I could even play the Trio with repeated octaves. By this time, my technique had been enormously improved and so had been my sight reading ability.
Well, it was when I was 14 years old and I just stick to this piece about 6 to 7 hours a day. Imagine I was struggling with the first bar, 4th cromatique movement 6 hours a day for one month. Yes, my family thought I became insane....but I did it!
How happy I was when I reached to the Theme after the long introduction part.

You will be able to play Fantasie Impromptu, if you want strongly to play it.
You can do it. Good luck!!

[mound]

still waiting for a recording..   

[breadboy]

First off, I never practice anything slow (at least not for very long), i play hands seperate at 100-150 percent speed on everything then put things together in sections.

You seem to preclude the possibility of learning more than one thing at a time here. My repertoire at the end of my first year will look like this:

Fur Elise
Mozart K331
Part of the fantasie
Beethoven’s Pathetique (at least partial)

The second year rap up should look like this:

Chopin Scherzo no. 2
Chopin Ballade no 1 (at least partial anyway)
Beethoven Moonlight (the whole thing)
Start la campanella (could take a year or two to really get a handle it)

Anyway, but the end of the 5th year I’d like to start on Godowsky’s Passacaglia and Alkan’s symphony and although a bit grand those are my goals for now.

My main problem now is finding the time to practice as I have tons of stuff to do, but my actual playing is coming along swimmingly.
As to concert giving, the only concerts I’d give would be for myself, my girlfriend, or family and friends, I’m not playing piano to actually give recitals.

Also tone down the sarcasm if you could

Sorry for the sarcasm breadboy but I can't see the practicality of your ambitions!
You say you've taken 3-4 months to learn a piece as simple as fur elise. How do you think you can master K. 331 (more diff. and much longer than fur elise), fantasie, (again more diff than fur elise) and pathetique (MUCH MUCH more difficult than the fur elise)! And the rest??LOL. I don't really need to talk about them. PLUS, YOU SAY YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO PRACTICE!!!!!!
Well, I've given my view point, so has everyone else! If you think you can still do it,well, GO AHEAD!!

sorry about the sarcasm... heres some more!!!

anyway, when i say it took me a few months to learn fur elise, what i really mean was it took me that long to play the one hard part in it (first interuption) after getting that down (which actually didn't take that long) the only other difficulty is memorizing the piece which considering my poor sight reading (sometimes it would take quite awhile just to get a bar of music off the page) its almost a wonder i finished as fast as i did. For me, most of my time goes to memorizing rather than working through technical difficulties (and of course there are those practice sessions where i lose track of what im doing and end up noodling for a hour or so, those just arn't very productive).

[lostinidlewonder]

Breadboy, I'd suggest at least one of Bach's 48 Preldues and Fugues. I constantly fall back onto these and use them when studying "harder" pieces. Since Bach wrote one for every single key usually use the one for the key of the "harder" piece your playing. It has always helped me out in times of despair! lol.

[chromatickler]

hahahahaha this whole topic is sheer comedic genius 

[Chrysalis]

duh i think he is provocating:)
he is just joking doh!

[Awakening]

Yeah, I kinda got that impression a while back. 

[Chrysalis]

he is just *** with your heads... leave him be i mean
it sounds to unrealistic to be true

ciaociao take care

[xRhapsodyx]

Having just read through a few posts in the forum, I'm amused.

Breadboy, if you really truly want to play Fantasie Impromptu then you will be able to do it, there is nothing stopping you (providing you have the time and you still want to finish it as much as you did at the  beginning once you're halfway through). I have been playing 4 years, heard my teacher playing Chopin's Nocturne in E minor once and decided to learn it because I loved it so much. It used to be an ABRSM Grade 8 piece and I'm studying for 6 now, but I went for it anyway, got it up to a really good standard and performed it in a concert last Sunday. So you can do it, it'll just take time.

However... I think you're confusing playing the piece with 'playing the piece'. There is a massive difference between pressing all the keys down at the right dynamic at the right time in the right order, and playing it as a piece of music with your feeling and emotion put into it. I know somebody who started studying for his Grade 8 within a year of playing, but other musicians have said I'm better than him even though I'm at Grade 6 level after 4 years. When he plays he just hits the keys down at the right time to impress people, when a real pianist plays they put their heart and soul into performing a piece of music that they understand and love. It takes more than technical competence to be a good musician.

I disagree with Bernhard's ideas about putting his pupils in for Grade 8 after roughly two years of playing, and not bothering with Grades 1,2,3,4,6 or 7. It takes time to learn to play the piano like a musician, it isn't something that can just be rushed if you put enough time into it. By all means have fun playing pieces you enjoy and push yourself to play harder pieces but don't rush learning just to say that you acheived whatever Grade in whichever amount of time. Maybe it is possible to produce excellent musicians if they're having lessons every day, but most of us just can't fit that in around life in general. And I'd be willing to bet that a Grade 8 pupil who had been playing for 9 years is a much better all round musician and a more emotional player than someone who has had daily lessons for two years.

Well that's just my two pence. Bread, if you're gonna learn this piece then go for it, don't waste time asking if you should or not. Good luck!

[Glissando]

Soooo.....
How is it going?
(found this thread after hearing a VERY BAD performance of the Fan. Imp. on TV music channel)
BTW my view point is biased as I LOVE Mozart, but really to say his stuff is easy to perform- I'd be interested to know if you still believe that.

[willcowskitz]

Few points to make:


Horowitz was too wise to not be humble. It is a common misconception that Horowitz was as cold and confident (some hint, even arrogant) as he appeared in public. In fact, (ironically) he praised Mozart's music and didn't consider himself to be ready to play it until his latest years. That's because it requires different understanding and interpreting because it uses different language. Saying Mozart is easy based only on technical performance is like saying that classical genre is a narrow enough definition to judge one's liking towards it. Different music from different eras and composers communicate differently. Majority of Mozart's music is technically simple, yes, but there lies another challenge.

It is called creation. Artist is a creator just as a composer is; the difference is that whereas the composer interprets feelings, atmospheres or just thoughts into certain orders of tones, a pianist interprets these tones back into the ingredients of the origin of that art.

Liszt's music for example (I am here referring to his romantic style) is very straight-forward in terms of emotion and interpretation. By this I mean that the music kind of plays itself - emotions are brought out easily for the listener to handle, there are thousands of different stories found in a single piece. I like to think of it as a flow of some spontaneous energy that is as trivial as a human identity; we're so close to it that we can't see it, but we can feel it. Romantic music is sometimes so definite and vivid in it's intentions and meanings that the little moving space that you can use for interpretation becomes less essential.

Bach's (I also like to mention Marcel Dupré in this reference) music on the other hand speaks not through heart nor intellect, but through spirit (anyone can use whatever expression they prefer). By this I mean that the music only awakens through understanding, which I don't see to be necessary with "heavy chord" music.

Mozart's music possesses ideas beyond plain intellect or emotion, you have to completely be IN the music to succesfully transmit it to people; you must have the spirit which the music was born from. Like a naïve child without wisdom of life and it's hardships would be trying to play Rachmaninoff's sentimental works, it is not uncommon for professional, accomplished pianists to play Mozart in the way that it gives similar vibes in the contrary effect. A technically profound pianist playing Mozart's sonatas with the same mentality that he sets himself in when playing music that communicates way differently from Mozart's, sounds just as naïve as the child who thinks he understands the tragedy of Rachmaninoff. With Mozart you can't play a bar after bar, you can't rely on your technical superiourity, there is a whole picture to paint, and every stroke must arise naturally from a state of mind. Of course it could be said that this applies to all music, but I underline here that what differs between Mozart "and the rest" is that the manner that it communicates in is very peculiar and far less trivial than one might think. To some it sounds boring, or plain crap, and the others can see in it the eternity and our own vulnerability in contrast. I've read a lot of negative comments about him on this forum, but also noticed that there is a minority(?) that are so sure of his genius that it could only be explained by sharing this bit of Mozart's eternal child like mind and ability to surrender to that spirit that he sculpted his music from.




Then on to the actual subject... (I'm going to comment on the image that I got of you based on the narrow experience gained from reading some of your posts, because the topic seems to be you)


breadboy, I wouldn't take learning Für Elise in three months as a merite worth staking a boast on. It might have (apparently has) boosted your confidence but it can mean different things, such as:

You used to think low of yourself.
You lack perspective on your self.
You have lost the sense of relativity. Your inner world and image of your self have expanded in relation to the reality and abilities of people around you.

I used to tell a friend of mine, that if you think you're good, you should just go out more and get to know people's abilities a little better.

When one encounters the thought that they are somehow unique or extraordinary at what they like to do, it is tempting to throw oneself into the new, more pleasant reality, and this works as means of rebuilding your ego after having received serious damage to it, but on longer run it destroys you because it shuts your mind from the truth, and only via real feedback and self-criticism one can get closer to perfection. Its whether you want to dream the road to it or actually walk it.

If you, breadboy, feel that certain piece in your heart, and the desire to play it, I don't see any reason to ask a bunch of unknown personae whether to do it or not. This is what brings me to already-evident scenario that this thread was primarily meant to entertain you. Whether you're feeding your ego, provocing people for the kick, or are really a living contradiction of intelligence and idiocy, is beside the point of the actual thread, so I'll just answer to the original post ignoring the senseless stream of pointless sociability-substituting "argument" that you seemed to enjoy taking advantage of as means of solidifying your still-in-development-stage lying identity towards the superego that you'd want to achieve as "the Me" (and nobody can say its impossible until you yourself admit it to yourself </reminder>) ...

Play the *** piece. I have been tackling difficult pieces without the technical skills required to play them, and surprise, I have learnt and developed my skills, AND enjoyed the music from heart. You know you have to stop only if the music starts to die inside of you, or when your carpal tunnel inflammates.


And keep us updated on your development.




p.s. Excuse my Englaish, it tends to go clumsy when not used much.

[chopin2256]

Breadboy did you listen to the recording of Moonlight sonata?  Now that person seems to have the song in his hands, and probably has it memorized, however there is still something seriously wrong.  It is not played evenly, and seems very choppy.  This person needs way more practice it seems, because there is more to playing the piano, than just being able to play the notes, and have it memorized.

If you are motivated enough to play this piece, you can do it.  However it may sound like the recording that you posted.

Since you only have about 4 months of piano playing practice, you will have alot of trouble playing this piece evenly.  So you may get the piece memorized in a few months (if you are good) but you still may have to practice the piece for a year or so after you get it into your blood to try to get it to sound even.

The 4 notes to 3 notes correspondence is not easy despite what you think.  I can safely say this because I mastered this song and can play it very well at performace speed.  Even with this mastered, the 16 notes to every 12 is very overwhelming and is tricky.  I always need to be warmed up to play this piece, because the fingers are constantly moving at lightening speed.

As a conclusion, I think if you want to see if you are able to do it, definitly give it a try.  But do not play this piece just to show off.  Play it because it is one of the best piano pieces ever written in history.

[Greentea028]

The fantasie impromptu isn't a terribly hard piece, but it's definetely, definetely a piece no one can play well with 3 months of piano experience. Although i do congratulate you on learning fur elise in that given time because it is a challenge to beginners.

I would suggest you first go through the entire book of hanon and learn all your scales before attacking a chopin piece of this caliber.

My friend has tried this other impromptu by chopin, i forget what it was called. he had about 2 years experience and butchered it.

But, i could be completely wrong, and you have some serious hand eye coordination. and able to play a piece that most pianists won't even look at without at least a couple years experience.

good luck to you

[Greentea028]

i just read one of your later posts, you aren't going to learn a chopin ballad or the moonlight sonata if you just started piano, im sorry =(.

that is just ridiculous..

i've been at it for 11 years, since was 6, and i think chopin ballads are among etudes in terms of difficulty.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

As I have browsed this thread, I notice that there are a lot of beginners here,
claiming to be amazing pianists. Let me explain to you how mediocre you really
are...

I started playing when I was 2. I learned the Hungarian Rhapsodie # 2 when I was
4, and Rach 2 when I was 7, by practicing 3 minutes a day. In 2 years I learned
Rach 3, and all of the Prokofiev Concertos. Of course, they aren`t that hard, they
just take a lot of finger strength. Now I am 10 and I can play every concerto ever
written, all of the Beethoven and Prokoffief sonatas, the 2nd Rachmaninoff
Sonata, all of his preludes, and the Liszt Sonata in B Minor blindfolded! I am
now going to be performing with the Berliner Philharmonic, and am composing
 my own concerto, which is harder than Rach 3, the Opus Clav., and all of the Prokoffief concertos combined, and I will perform it next week without ever having practiced it!

(I have also learned to play Beethoven`s Hammerklavier Sonata with my toes, while making a cup of tea!)

On a more serious note....

So, Breadboy, please, let me apologize in advance for what I am about to say. I will most likely regret it afterwards, but it has to be said, to you, and to all of the other arrogant beginner pianists out there, who, for one reason or another, think they are prodigies, and better than everyone else. Let me guess, in a few months, when you finish 'learning' the Fantasie Impromptu, we'll see another post from you, saying, "I've finished the Fantasie Impromptu and now I'm going to learn the Rach 3!" just like the rest of you 12-year-olds out there, thinking that you can play the Opus Clav. after 2 years of lessons.

I have steadily become more and more enraged with your ridiculous posts. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but over the last 10 minutes, I have been grinding my teeth reading your posts. I suggest that you realize that you simply aren't ready for this, and stop acting like an arrogant, moronic imbecile.

I apologize once again for saying that, but I am fed up to the teeth with this. "Oh, look at me, I'm 13 1/2 years old, and I am going to learn the OC, so SEND ME THE SHEET MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Sound familiar? Yes, Luda888. I thought that he was the only one who was that stupid. But apparently, I was mistaken.

And... to those of you encouraging Breadboy to learn this piece, you should be ashamed of yourselves! Don't you realize how an endeavor like this could crush a person's spirit? Imagine if Breadboy were to quit his lessons, becoming so frustrated with learning such a piece that is so far beyond his reach! Telling him to "go for it!" is quite ridiculous.

And Breadboy, I am starting to wonder about how you conclude every post with "God bless". I am starting to think that this is all a sick game of yours to see how many people you can annoy, and the "God bless" is in there just to add to it. It isn't the type of "God bless" that you would hear from a friend, who really means it, but from someone to puts religion into the situation, just to get on people's nerves. I doubt you really mean what you say.

You have gotten enough attention. Don't you think it's enough?


God bless,

Ludwig Van Rachabji

[willcowskitz]

... to those of you encouraging Breadboy to learn this piece, you should be ashamed of yourselves! Don't you realize how an endeavor like this could crush a person's spirit? Imagine if Breadboy were to quit his lessons, becoming so frustrated with learning such a piece that is so far beyond his reach! Telling him to "go for it!" is quite ridiculous.

I understand completely how annoying these "modern geniuses" as rohansahai called them, are, but there's no need to take the frustratement to irrational scale.

I myself started playing the piano the same way, I wanted to play the difficult pieces because they were the ones that sounded most touching to me personally, plus I have always been kind of a sentimental romantician so the thought of playing these pieces alone motivated me a lot. However, I quickly met my borders with my current skills. I started to realize how much there was in piano playing that I hadn't even thought of as being totally essential to consider; how complex some techniques were to develop and polish, and how many details you have to take into consideration. There was a LOT that I didn't realize when I first started, but the fact remains that I ran into these difficulties probably faster than average beginning pianists, because I had started with the difficult pieces. I didn't know the concept of the scale, but I started to transpose music to different scales for fun and to develop my technique to playing those other scales, and so every obstacle that I had been stuck with, slowly started to vanish. Playing difficult pieces didn't turn me away from the piano, it didn't at any point put me down (except for short periods when I realized the distance to my desired level of skill), but advancing continuously only kept me really motivated with the piano. There was this one time when my dad came to the piano when I was playing, around the time I had just started playing, and said to me; "You can't start with pieces like that, they're far beyond your reach, you must build up your understanding and technique gradually",  and I replied "But if I just keep repeating these parts, eventually I will hit the right notes at the right time, and then I will play the piece." ...Needless to say what was wrong in what I said, I was right about that one thing - I would learn to hit the keys. And musicality, that came on by itself, with time, as I learnt about the instrument and about my own feelings and how to express them. As a conclusion, and according to my own experience, I would encourage anyone to start with any piece they desire, at any phase of their development. Even if they only get through the first two bars, they might learn a valuable lesson, attitude-wise, mentally, or technically, and I would call that development.

And Breadboy, I am starting to wonder about how you conclude every post with "God bless". I am starting to think that this is all a sick game of yours to see how many people you can annoy, and the "God bless" is in there just to add to it. It isn't the type of "God bless" that you would hear from a friend, who really means it, but from someone to puts religion into the situation, just to get on people's nerves. I doubt you really mean what you say.

You have gotten enough attention. Don't you think it's enough?

If you look at the things he has said (without a doubt you have), you notice that he has said zero constructive things towards the community, without refraining from taking advantage of other people and their frustration, anger and empathy in constructing his own self image. Needless to say... The community, if at the least bit functioning, will reject such a candidate.

[breadboy]

If you look at the things he has said (without a doubt you have), you notice that he has said zero constructive things towards the community, without refraining from taking advantage of other people and their frustration, anger and empathy in constructing his own self image. Needless to say... The community, if at the least bit functioning, will reject such a candidate.

I wasn't speaking to the community Mr. Marx, just interested pianists who might venture to reply to my postings. I certainly wasn't aware that teeth could be nashed over reading one of my posts. These really are just sub-conversation internet posts guys... don't take it too seriously

[pianolotus]

breadboy

You're going to need $1.99, a piano, and a computer.

buy this: https://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MP-018B&cat=SPK

record yourself

and then we will believe you.


So at the rate your going, please tell me when i can buy tickets to your concert at Carnegie Hall.

By the way, you remind me of one of my track friends who wants to win the state championship in both the 2 mile and the 400 meter dash.

[jlh]

What the heck is going on in here?  I've been avoiding reading this thread all semester because I never had time to read it all... now that I'm done, I read it and WOW!  This has got to be one of the most ludacris threads I've ever read!!

Breadboy,
Don't play the Fantasie!  Wait a little while until your technical abilities have grown past the level at which you spend 3 months learning Fur Elise.  To the rest of us on here, you're coming across like a 3 month old baby that says (if it could talk) "I've been drinking milk for 3 months, do you think I'm ready for a think, juicy beef steak?" 

If you start playing advanced repertoire too soon (especially after only playing for 5 months!!!!!!) you're going to injure yourself, guaranteed -- if for no other reason than your endurance is not sufficiently trained.  It is when you are tired that you are most susceptible to injury, and if you try playing something as advanced as the Impromptu, you will get fatigued (if you ever can get it past a snails' pace, that is) and even with the awesome technique you learned from Fur Elise, when you're tired, it will go out the window and then your muscles and tendons will strain to keep up with the music and you'll end up with an injury.  I speak from experience here.  I started playing the piano at age 11, learned the Rach prelude 3/2 my second year (which I played for a solo/ensemble festival that year and got first place and a standing ovation from 300 people, btw), spent the next few years building repertoire such as chopin waltzes, nocturnes, scherzos (Bmol and B-flat), etudes, Beethoven sonatas and Rachmaninov preludes and etudes, etc. until finally I developed a severe case of tendinitus.  I had to stop playing for about a year (it hurt too much to do ANYTHING -- even relatively easy tasks like putting on socks were excruciation).  Fortunately, I started practicing the next year, but not only did it take awhile to gain the proficiency I once had, but  I was forced to revise my technique and learn better ways to relieve tension (which worked, and I've gone well beyond anything I could have done before).  See, even though I studied with some of the best teachers in my country and had attained a technique that allowed me to play those relatively difficult pieces, it was still not enough to avoid injury. 

As a performing pianist and teacher, I will make a bold statement:  after playing for 5 months, I can almost guarantee beyond question that you have not attained the required technique to play the Fantasie-Impromptu at ANY level of proficiency.  It's like the guy who wants to go from one side of a deep canyon to another without first constructing a bridge.  Posting such a hilariously outrageous question on this forum as the one you originally posted is akin to asking an astronaut, "I'm getting better at flying my radio-controlled airplane that I learned to fly this afternoon... do you think I'm ready to pilot the next mission to space?", or still another... "I learned HTML today, do you think I'm ready to program a PHP forum to use on the internet?" I could go on and on.

You posted a horrible performance of the moonlight sonata and said you wouldn't ever perform a piece in that condition.  Well, sorry to say, but despite bad rhythm, wrong notes, memory slips and wrong interpretation, the performer obviously has had multiple years of instruction at the piano.  Using your own standard, why on earth would you want to work on a piece you would never be able to perform?  After even 9 months (assuming it only takes you 3-4 months to learn this beast), you will not have the experience, technical facility, musical insight or physical stamina to make this piece concert ready, according to your own definition.  Music does not just "happen", especially if you have not the time to put into it, as you stated you don't have time to practice.

About the whole Mozart thing...  Last year I learned the Mozart Concerto in A K.488, and I'd rank it with the most difficult pieces I've done (which is saying a lot, based on other repertoire I've played recently).  You can't really "make" Mozarts piano works harder than they really are -- all the musicality observations mentioned in previous posts are not arbitrary decisions based on a need to make Mozart's music more difficult.  All that stuff is inherent in the music itself, and if you took time to actually study some of them with a qualified teacher, you'd see why Mozart is so difficult.


Dude, if you meant this to be funny, I must admit I had a good chuckle here and there after reading your posts, as I'm sure many others did as well.

To the rest of you reading and posting here, count your blessings -- he could be your student!


P.S. Where's youre recording??? I want to see if your self-assessment holds any weight.

[mound]

bravo jlh!

I too am still waiting to hear the Fur Elise recording

[jlh]

I also disagree with the notion that it is impossible to assertain the difficulty of a piece.  It most certainly is possible, and any piano teacher on this forum and anywhere else in the world will tell you that the Impromptu in question is much more difficult than Fur Elise.  I learned Fur Elise in 2 weeks time by myself before I started taking lessons, so why should I be impressed if it takes you 3 months with a teacher to go through it?

Some pieces are more difficult because they just ARE.  As a beginning student, you should take the advice of those on this forum, or else stop asking questions.

I don't even know what the level would be for the Impromptu, like 10-11 or something like that?  You can't feasibly make a leap from what is considered level 4 material to something as advanced as the Impromptu if you have no other experience whatsoever on the piano -- and I mean BASIC EXPERIENCE.  I can't even fathom why you'd want to put yourself through what you're suggesting.  Then again, it matters not to me personally what you do, so if you want to promote injury and frustrate yourself to no end, don't let me stop you. 

Recording?

[lostinidlewonder]

You know what is funny, reading a lot of the self indulgent stuff people write about themselves to say, here believe me! look at what i do, what has that got to do with what is being said? It is just wasting internet space lol I've never trusted anyone who says, believe me because i do this. You say believe me because this is what ive found out.

If anyone really trully understands music then they should never be fully confindent in giving advice to someone they never sat at the keyboard with. The obvious thing is, fur elise to impromptu is crazy, especially if you never experieneced anything else, but who has the right to say, DONT DO IT it will ruin you! Let them try, hoepfully they will record it and let us hear !! Then we can say whatever we like, but then again that is all our own opinion, music is music, even if it is "bad"

[bravuraoctaves]

80% of all advice on the internet is unhelpful

[TheRach]

Hmmmm... I'm afraid I'm a bit late...

I've just browsed through this thread and it seems to me that breadboy was determined beforehand to learn the Fantasie Impromptu, and yet still makes this thread. I find it strange how he takes no heed of the word said by all those who opposed his decision to jump from [an incomplete] Fur Elise to Fantasie Impromptu and does not block out every shread of encouragement. It seems that breadboy did not tend to seek advice, but rather to "show off" in a certain perspective. However, It's very possible that I am wrong, and I hope that such is the case.

Being able to play Fur Elise after 3 months of piano playing is nothing extraordinary. But being able to play the piece clearly, correctly, and beautifully is what ranks it as a year/grade 4 piece.

Mozart may not be techically very difficult, however it is. In pieces of Liszt or Rachmaninoff, I wouldn't mind if the performer plays a few wrong notes, but if you play one wrong note in Mozart, the entire piece falls through.

A little while after I begun piano, I was astounded and loved Mozart's Variations on "Ah, Vous Dirai-Je Maman" [aka Twinkle Twinkle Little Star]. After several months, I had learned it. But at what cost? I completely butchered the piece. I can play other pieces quite well now, but this piece I never want to play again. I still love it, but I hate what I've done to it, and I wish I had never undertaken such a task. I performed and video taped this my rendition of this piece, and every time I watch me play it, I grow so sick and disgusted at what I had done.

I just hope you and your teacher make the right decision. I've never seen nor heard your playing, so I cannot be the judge of what you should do. Nevertheless, unless you are some sort of prodigy or you have an amazing teacher, I don't think it's in your best interest to tackle the Fantasie Impromptu just yet.

Play the music, not the instrument.
Best of luck to you, Breadboy

[jacobspauly]

Is this "Breadboy" for real or is this just one of you other guys playing a cruel joke??? Come on, fess up. Bernhard, is this your alter ego?

Question: Why does Breadboy like posting so much on this forum?

Answer: Nobody can smack you through a computer screen.

Very entertaining though, let's keep this one rolling.

[sirpazhan]

I'm just about to finish up Fur Elise after playing for just under 3 months with a teacher and I was wondering, is the Fantasie Impromptu something I could shoot for next or should I wait a few months?

If your talking about Chopins Fantasie Impromptu Op. 66,,, you're confused,, if it took you 3 months for Fur Elise,, then it will take you just shy of a year for Impromptu (if that!) -- cause you dont want to play a sloppy Impromptu,,, the notes have to be played very clear and up to speed,,, try playing other songs to build speed and clarity first,,, then go for the fast chopins like the revolutionary etud and impromptu --

jumping from fur elise to moonlight 3rd is like going from flying a kite to a 737...

[jlh]

still waiting for a recording...

[timothy42b]

As to concert giving, the only concerts I’d give would be for myself, my girlfriend, or family and friends, I’m not playing piano to actually give recitals.

Hey, if you want to concentrate on that piece, go for it.  Don't think I could do it, but doesn't mean you can't. 

Obviously your goals are different than mine are.  So your path may need to be different as well. 

However, your goal stated above is completely incomprehensible to me.  Why would you, or anybody, put in the enormous effort to learn something as difficult as piano, without intending to ever use it?  Yet this sentiment is common on the forum here.  It boggles my mind. 

Music is communication.  Playing solely in the privacy of your own home is, well, kind of like being married without a partner.  Intellectually I can accept it as a valid alternate world view, but really I don't buy it. 

You could have the best of both worlds, you know.  Spend 90% of your practice time on the f.i., and 10 minutes a day on standards.  You could gig every weekend on accordion for $100 , actually making people happy.  That two hours every saturday afternoon won't help with finger speed, but might with learning more about music's all about.  I'm not talking recitals, that's kind of self indulgent.  Do some real working musician gigs. 

Okay, I'm full of wacko ideas, I know.  But every other instrumentalist goes out there in the real world and tests their skills.  No reason for piano to be exempt. 

[pianiststrongbad]

I have refrained myself from posting on this... but here it goes....
You should learn the notes of the Fantasie Impromptu if you really want to learn it because it will be good sightreading practice the first time you do it.  But if you plan to seriously learn it, then you are wasting your time.  If it takes you three months to learn Fur Elise, then you will not be able to play Fantasie Impromptu well for a much longer time period.  Think of what you could do with all that time.  Learn several other pieces, get a job- make money, or several other activities.  Also, I don't agree with your statement that you only practice fast.  That is stupid.  You will practice with stiff technique, and your tone will be harsh.  With that said, you should learn a Mozart Sonata before you attempt Fantasie Impromptu.  The early Mozart sonatas are actually very difficult in my opinion, to play with the correct tone, and play at tempo.  Once you have played some more literature, I would recommend Fantasie Impromptu.  This thread is completely worthless in my opinion.

[jlh]

This thread is completely worthless in my opinion.

No argument there.

[RappinPhil]

Guys, breadboy is a gimmick. Stop taking him seriously. He's just some kid hiding behind the anonymity of the internet trying to start a flame war.

[lostinidlewonder]

Someone needs to get some post killing spray, this thread isnt dying!

[Bacfokievrahms]

somebody needs to confront the bringer for he has brought too much and taken a great many

[chopinguy]

Almost no one can develop the kind of ear it takes and the touch of the keyboard and the type of control that the Fantasie-Impromptu requires.  There's the obstacle of 3 vs 4, and you haven't even  tried 2 vs 3... and there's also the preciseness of technique that is required, not to mention the complicated nature of the emotions compared to Fur Elise.

Sure, you could try learning everything note by note and eventually speed it up, but you need the sort of foundation that you get from playing for many months or years.  It wouldn't sound as mature as it would be if you wait a bit on it and accumulate more experience.

[jazzyprof]

PLEASE, PLEASE JUST LET THIS THREAD DIE, OK!  There's nothing you can say here that hasn't already been said a dozen times before, and Breadboy himself hasn't been heard from in weeks.   There's no reason why this should be the most read and most responded to thread in pianoforum history.  So please do not respond to this.  JUST LET IT DIE!!!  AIGH'T? 

[theodopolis]

I too am quite amused by this discussion. I am disappointed though, that I arrived a month too late to partake.
I did, however find a funny little piece of memorabilia from June 2004 regarding breadboy and Fur Elise:

Some of these replies sound snobbish to me -

I agree!  Poor kid, he asked as politely as he could for advice - if you didn't want to give it, then don't. 

Funny how things change.

[mound]

Dammit this time I thought for sure this thread had died!

[Dikai]

fantasy impromtu right after Fur Elise.... hmm.... interesting....
it may not be too bad i guess... when i learned it, the hard part is the 3-to-4 at such a fast pace.  but then i cheated, i start left/right hands when they should, and i end them when they should; as speed increases, it turns out alright.  however, try to play the notes as clearly as possible, because once you get into the habit of blurring the notes, it;s very hard to fix...  but yeah, it shouldn't be too technically hard, at least all the notes are grouped together, a lot of finger work... but no jumps (this is a good thing)....  it would be kinda like a romantec period version of a mozart sonata/toccata (maybe??)

[Dikai]

breadboy, i was like you when i was learning piano, i wanted to see instant result, thus i missed a lot of important foundations and basics skills.  today, i regret.  in a competition, whether i win or not, when i listen to the others, i know i just don't have the foundation.. if i were a building, it may be tall, but it's not sturdy... if you look at it far far away, it may seem nice, but if you get close to this building, it doesn't look very safe...  but still, do try to play it, once you've learned it, it's very rewarding...
another advice tho.. do polish up every piece you learn, a "partial" doesn't quite do you any good

[jlh]

I HEREBY CLAIM THIS THREAD IN THE NAME OF JLH.  AS LEADER, I ONLY HAVE TWO RULES THAT MUST BE FOLLOWED:

1) NO ONE MAY POST ADDITIONAL REPLIES HERE UNLESS BREADBOY FIRST POSTS A RECORDING.

2) IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, THIS THREAD SHOULD DIE A QUICK AND PAINLESS DEATH.



...Just kidding, but please, PLEASE let this thread die!!!

[whynot]

It's been four months since this discussion lapsed, and I wondered how the piece is going. 

[whynot]

Oh my God, everyone's going to hate me!  I'm such a moron.  I didn't see all the subsequent posts begging to let this thing die until after I posted.  SO SORRY!  Of course it hasn't been four months after all, and no one wants to talk about this anymore.  I'm mortified.  Walking away in disgrace...   

[chopiabin]

The second year rap up should look like this:

Chopin Scherzo no. 2
Chopin Ballade no 1 (at least partial anyway)
Beethoven Moonlight (the whole thing)
Start la campanella (could take a year or two to really get a handle it)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

[goansongo]

This post is too funny to die.  I will now post again so that this topic shall move to the top of the list.  Hahaha....