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should i start the fantasie impromptu? (Read 134381 times)

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #50 on: September 30, 2004, 07:35:37 AM »
Believe it or not ( I hear a RIPLEYS)...

Beethoven's moonlight is EASIER than the Fantasie Impromptu...that's for several reasons:

wait for me to find that old thread somewhere...

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #51 on: September 30, 2004, 07:42:04 AM »
BINGO!

HERE IT IS!

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=repo;action=display;num=1088650541

And who ever was playing that "version" of the presto movement of Sonata 14 did a very crappy job.

They gotta work on their finger independance with their 3-4 fingers...and the timing is horrific!

When they play the minor chords at each end of the run...it sounds like some car is bumpy and running out of gas!  Like some pokey sunday-driving grandma.

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #52 on: October 01, 2004, 01:19:32 AM »
Quote
Believe it or not ( I hear a RIPLEYS)...

Beethoven's moonlight is EASIER than the Fantasie Impromptu...that's for several reasons:

wait for me to find that old thread somewhere...


not sure which is easier, but the fantasie is easy:

"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes
this composition, (2) without good learning methods it can seem impossible to learn, (3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched, (4) the challenges of the piece are ideal for illustration purposes, and (5) this is the kind of piece that you will be working on all your life in order to do “incredible things” with it, so you might aswell start now! In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece. There is no better demonstration of the efficacy of the methods of this book than showing how easily you can learn this composition."
-C. C. Chang

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #53 on: October 01, 2004, 03:20:13 AM »
Quote


not sure which is easier, but the fantasie is easy:

"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes
this composition, (2) without good learning methods it can seem impossible to learn, (3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched, (4) the challenges of the piece are ideal for illustration purposes, and (5) this is the kind of piece that you will be working on all your life in order to do “incredible things” with it, so you might aswell start now! In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece. There is no better demonstration of the efficacy of the methods of this book than showing how easily you can learn this composition."
-C. C. Chang




(3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched...read my "it feels great when..."post
in miscellaneous  ;D ;D ;D
;D

Offline chopiabin

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #54 on: October 01, 2004, 03:24:15 AM »
I hate the Fantasie - it's overplayed and full of repetition.

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #55 on: October 02, 2004, 10:04:38 AM »
I am already starting to get sick of that

"do do do do do do do...doooodooo doooo do dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum etc etc"

C'mon play that darn music in yur head!

Offline tocca

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #56 on: October 02, 2004, 08:20:41 PM »
Breadboy: You quote from Changs book, where he says that it's easy to learn this piece with the methods of this book.
"Easy" is of course a relative term.

Anyway, if you go back a couple of pages, to the start of the "Hands together" part, in the book you can read Chang saying that:
"it will take about two years to be able to really take advantage of everything that the methods of this book has to offer".

That sounds more realistical too me.
Practise, using methods from Changs book, for a couple of years. During this time you'll develop both technice and understanding of music.
THEN, after a couple of years, the Fantasie Impromptu might be easy, or atleast not frustratingly hard, to go ahead with.

I actually believe you could learn F.I. starting from your point. But it WILL NOT be easy, and it will take so much time and dedication that your' e MUCH, MUCH better off taking it a bit slow and get back to it later on.

But, as others have said here, you seem to not care what advice others give and are totally set on going ahead with this.

I suggest you mail Chang and ask about his opinion in this case, since you don't trust ours!

Offline Stolzing

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #57 on: October 02, 2004, 10:21:30 PM »
Quote


not sure which is easier, but the fantasie is easy:

"This is Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, op. 66. This example is good because (1) everyone likes
this composition, (2) without good learning methods it can seem impossible to learn, (3) the exhilaration of suddenly being able to play it is unmatched, (4) the challenges of the piece are ideal for illustration purposes, and (5) this is the kind of piece that you will be working on all your life in order to do “incredible things” with it, so you might aswell start now! In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece. There is no better demonstration of the efficacy of the methods of this book than showing how easily you can learn this composition."
-C. C. Chang

So how is Fur Elise coming along?

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #58 on: October 03, 2004, 04:05:15 AM »
E, Eb, E, Eb E, etc etc etc ;D

Offline one_wing3d_ang3l

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #59 on: October 03, 2004, 05:58:32 AM »
quote"In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started  
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece"

omg the fantaisie impromptu is nowher easy r u crazie?
quote"fairly easy piece to learn" even if u start off good this piece is very daunting and remains very difficult.
fairly easy pieces r pieces like fur elise u must be joking saying this piece is easy

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #60 on: October 04, 2004, 02:30:45 AM »
Quote
quote"In reality, this is a fairly easy piece to learn! Most students who have difficulty do so because they can’t get started  
and the initial hurdle produces a mental block that makes them doubt their ability to play this piece"

omg the fantaisie impromptu is nowher easy r u crazie?
quote"fairly easy piece to learn" even if u start off good this piece is very daunting and remains very difficult.
fairly easy pieces r pieces like fur elise u must be joking saying this piece is easy



I'm still having problems with this piece at about MM = 160...its supposed to be over 200 .... insane,

yeah so this is not easy.

Offline teresa_b

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #61 on: October 07, 2004, 03:47:20 AM »
Quote



mozarts music is not very hard and that is a fact.



Now THAT'S funny!  I have played Fantaisie Impromptu, and a lot of Mozart--And I have to say, the Mozart F Major sonata K332, or the B-flat, K333, are leagues above Fantaisie Impromptu in difficulty.  The transparency and apparent simplicity of Mozart are the most deceptively challenging aspects to master--It isn't as "hard" to get the notes in the beginning of study--but to capture Mozart--just ask any concert pianist.

As far as  the Impromptu goes, I would say go for it, but don't expect to get it down too quickly.  I learned this at age 16, but have played it and re-studied it over many years.  

For the benefit of anyone who is learning this piece:  
If I had one moment of epiphany, it was when I realized it is indeed "impromptu," i.e., play it as though you just sat down and tossed it off!  If it is too perfectly studied, as though you are counting the 4-against-3's, or trying to get it note-perfect--you will miss the whole idea.  

I never practice this piece immediately before performing it--I warm up on other things, and then just play my heart out--it works.

All the best, Teresa

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #62 on: October 07, 2004, 10:28:55 PM »
Quote


Now THAT'S funny!  I have played Fantaisie Impromptu, and a lot of Mozart--And I have to say, the Mozart F Major sonata K332, or the B-flat, K333, are leagues above Fantaisie Impromptu in difficulty.  The transparency and apparent simplicity of Mozart are the most deceptively challenging aspects to master--It isn't as "hard" to get the notes in the beginning of study--but to capture Mozart--just ask any concert pianist.

As far as  the Impromptu goes, I would say go for it, but don't expect to get it down too quickly.  I learned this at age 16, but have played it and re-studied it over many years.  

For the benefit of anyone who is learning this piece:  
If I had one moment of epiphany, it was when I realized it is indeed "impromptu," i.e., play it as though you just sat down and tossed it off!  If it is too perfectly studied, as though you are counting the 4-against-3's, or trying to get it note-perfect--you will miss the whole idea.  

I never practice this piece immediately before performing it--I warm up on other things, and then just play my heart out--it works.

All the best, Teresa


My point wasn't that the fantasie is hard and mozart is not, it was that both the fantasie impromptu and mozart in general are easy. Wether Mozart is a good composer or not is debated, but his music is not difficult at all. Alkan, Godowsky, Liszt, Beethoven, etc. have written very difficult works. Mozart however, has not.

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #63 on: October 07, 2004, 10:34:42 PM »
Quote
Breadboy: You quote from Changs book, where he says that it's easy to learn this piece with the methods of this book.
"Easy" is of course a relative term.

Anyway, if you go back a couple of pages, to the start of the "Hands together" part, in the book you can read Chang saying that:
"it will take about two years to be able to really take advantage of everything that the methods of this book has to offer".

That sounds more realistical too me.
Practise, using methods from Changs book, for a couple of years. During this time you'll develop both technice and understanding of music.
THEN, after a couple of years, the Fantasie Impromptu might be easy, or atleast not frustratingly hard, to go ahead with.

I actually believe you could learn F.I. starting from your point. But it WILL NOT be easy, and it will take so much time and dedication that your' e MUCH, MUCH better off taking it a bit slow and get back to it later on.

But, as others have said here, you seem to not care what advice others give and are totally set on going ahead with this.

I suggest you mail Chang and ask about his opinion in this case, since you don't trust ours!


to really take advantage of everything will probably take 2 years. this says nothing for the difficulty of the fantasie or anything else for that matter, just how long it will take to fully implement the listed techniques.

Also about opinions of this forum. I am not talking to a monolithic mass called a forum. I'm speaking with individuals whose opinions I take into consideration to varying degrees :)

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #64 on: October 07, 2004, 10:38:02 PM »
Quote



I'm still having problems with this piece at about MM = 160...its supposed to be over 200 .... insane,

yeah so this is not easy.


how are you practicing? does it line up with changs methods (which really arn't his anyway and would better be attributed to Debussy)?

Offline teresa_b

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #65 on: October 08, 2004, 12:43:21 AM »
Quote


My point wasn't that the fantasie is hard and mozart is not, it was that both the fantasie impromptu and mozart in general are easy. Wether Mozart is a good composer or not is debated, but his music is not difficult at all. Alkan, Godowsky, Liszt, Beethoven, etc. have written very difficult works. Mozart however, has not.


Breadboy, not many people debate whether Mozart was a good composer.   Anyone who really knows Mozart also knows how very difficult his music is to play (and I don't mean sightread).  I will not press the issue any further, but suffice it to say, your comments reflect your beginner's mindset.  When you get some more experience, you will deepen your understanding.  

By all means, study the Fantaisie Impromptu--In a few years, you may even want to tackle  some Mozart.

All the best, Teresa

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #66 on: October 08, 2004, 07:27:30 AM »
Quote


Breadboy, not many people debate whether Mozart was a good composer.   Anyone who really knows Mozart also knows how very difficult his music is to play (and I don't mean sightread).  I will not press the issue any further, but suffice it to say, your comments reflect your beginner's mindset.  When you get some more experience, you will deepen your understanding.  

By all means, study the Fantaisie Impromptu--In a few years, you may even want to tackle  some Mozart.

All the best, Teresa


speaking from on high is an interesting way to prove a point (anyone who really knows.... declaring my mindset is aswell. Are you really going to sit and tell me that no one (even not many) debates wether mozart was a good composer or not? I can tell you that such discussions do take place (proving a negative is notoriously difficult but go ahead if you must :) ). Also I made no judgement on the quality of mozart, just the skill level required in playing his works. Could it be that your level of skill has not yet exceded the required level to put Mozarts music in prespective? Also, please do not equate ease with quality as they are two very different concepts.

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #67 on: October 08, 2004, 09:02:03 AM »
Quote


how are you practicing? does it line up with changs methods (which really arn't his anyway and would better be attributed to Debussy)?


No I don't follow his methods because I don't KNOW his methods in the first place!

Offline teresa_b

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #68 on: October 08, 2004, 02:06:05 PM »
Breadboy,

Forgive me for implying you have a beginner's mindset.  I was not speaking "from on high," but recalling your own statement that you have played the piano for 4 months.  I would call that a beginner.

Also, you have a right to your opinion of Mozart.  But at no time did I confuse technical difficulty with the quality of his music, or any music.  

I have studied and played Mozart  and many other composers, for around 40 years, so I have a pretty good perspective and "skill level."  If I seemed supercilious, I apologize.  When you lightly dismissed Mozart, my main focus in music study, as "easy," I probably reacted too strongly.  

Good luck,
Teresa

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #69 on: October 09, 2004, 12:23:12 AM »
Quote
Breadboy,

Forgive me for implying you have a beginner's mindset.  I was not speaking "from on high," but recalling your own statement that you have played the piano for 4 months.  I would call that a beginner.

Also, you have a right to your opinion of Mozart.  But at no time did I confuse technical difficulty with the quality of his music, or any music.  

I have studied and played Mozart  and many other composers, for around 40 years, so I have a pretty good perspective and "skill level."  If I seemed supercilious, I apologize.  When you lightly dismissed Mozart, my main focus in music study, as "easy," I probably reacted too strongly.  

Good luck,
Teresa


just wondering though, if mozart is indeed not easy what are the names of some of the works that are difficult? I'll put up Alkan's  Symphony for solo piano (Op. 39 Nos. 4-7), Godowsky's Passacaglia, and just to touch classical a bit Beethoven's Hammerklavier. Can anything by Mozart touch these as far as difficultly is concerned?
Also, as far as playing piano it's a given that I'm a beginner, but as for music in general I've been listening to it all of my life (not to mention my learning style is almost completely auditory).

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #70 on: October 09, 2004, 12:25:24 AM »
Quote


No I don't follow his methods because I don't KNOW his methods in the first place!


Do yourself and your technique a favor and check his book out :):

http://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/PianoBook/

Offline Stolzing

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #71 on: October 09, 2004, 01:32:38 AM »
You still havent finished Fur Elise have you?  :-/

Offline teresa_b

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #72 on: October 09, 2004, 02:51:45 AM »
I would not argue that it would take more hours of grueling practice to play the Hammerklavier than it would to play any of the Mozart Sonatas.  The late Beethoven sonatas are extremely challenging technically and interpretively.

Even Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu will take longer to master, as far as getting the notes, than a Mozart work of equal length.

It's AFTER you have the notes (which can be trickier that you think) that you find your biggest challenge.  The crystalline purity and transparency of Mozart are NOT easy to capture.  ANY degree of muddiness or inexactness ruins it.  One wrong note sticks out like a sore thumb.  Too much emphasis on tempo evenness and you make Mozart boring or metronomic.  Yet unevenness is even worse.  

Difficult pieces?  Here are some:

Piano Sonatas in A minor K310, F Major K332, B-flat, K333, D Major, K576

Piano Concertos no. 14 through 27 are all extremely challenging, although the most difficult technically are no 15, 16, 21 (1st mvt), 22, 24, 25, 26 and 27.

That's a small sampling.  The two Piano quartets are also quite difficult, and very beautiful.  

Teresa




Offline tocca

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #73 on: October 09, 2004, 09:46:27 PM »
Agree 100% with Teresa_B!

Many Mozart pieces looks easy on the score, they sound like they would be easy to play. They seem easy when you start out with them and there are rarely really fast or otherwise highly technical sections...

BUT. They are FAR from easy nonetheless! As Teresa_B says, any mistake (be it wrong note, rytm, phrasing...) ruins the piece completely. Mozarts pieces are like fragile porsline-masterpieces. Handle with great care, or you'll brake them.

I've never played Mozart publically. I don't feel up to it. Fantasie-Impromptu, on the other hand, i wouldn't hesitate to play.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #74 on: October 10, 2004, 08:52:27 PM »
I think it takes a much deeper musical understanding to play Mozart than the annoying buzzing of the Fantasie (don't get me wrong, I love Chopin, but he didn't even want the Fantasie published). My piano teacher has played all the Rachmaninov Concertos, all the Chopin etudes, and pretty much any piece you can think of - he told me that one of the most difficult things to play (by play I mean play well with more than just the notes) is a Mozart sonata.

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #75 on: October 11, 2004, 07:13:35 AM »
Quote
I think it takes a much deeper musical understanding to play Mozart than the annoying buzzing of the Fantasie (don't get me wrong, I love Chopin, but he didn't even want the Fantasie published). My piano teacher has played all the Rachmaninov Concertos, all the Chopin etudes, and pretty much any piece you can think of - he told me that one of the most difficult things to play (by play I mean play well with more than just the notes) is a Mozart sonata.


there are many pieces a great deal harder than the rach concertos or the chopin etudes. Check out godowsky's transcriptions of the chopin etudes for instance. Just about 0 people can play all of these and to my knowledge Hamelin is the only one to record the full set. Also I don't think we can say for sure that Chopin never wanted the fantasie published, mabye he just never finished it quite to his liking. Regardless, on purely technical merits Mozart is not hard music. You can sure make a case that you have to play mozart with such (insert adjectives here) that it really makes it more difficult than anything else... but what if you played everything else with (insert adjectives here) wouldn't they be just as hard as Mozart? Come to think of it playing with degrees of muddiness or inexactness, wrong notes, to much emphesis on tempo, or unevenness ruins lots of music except mabye the ultra fast stuff. So again when all these characteristics can be applied to clearly harder works... why is Mozart hard again?

Offline chopiabin

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #76 on: October 11, 2004, 08:03:23 PM »
Whatever. You clearly understand piano better than anyone here, so there is no need arguing with you. However, attempting to belittle my teacher is simply dumb. The man got into Julliard on a full piano scholarship. I doubt either of us can say that. He had learned all the Chopin etudes when he was in highschool, and I'd be willing to bet that he wouldn't waste time on Godowsky's trashily virtuousic transcriptions of Chopin's already perfect music.

Offline Stolzing

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #77 on: October 12, 2004, 03:34:58 AM »
But can he play the easy part of Fur Elise?


Breadboy, how can you even say how hard or easy Mozart is when the only piece you can play is (half of) Fur Elise?  You are speaking from the wrong orifice.

Offline mound

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #78 on: October 12, 2004, 04:58:34 PM »
I'm not sure why I keep feeling the need to read this thread when new posts come up  :P

breadboy's comments are truly baffling me. They show a profound arrogance and most everything he says is simply naive. I don't know why you all are wasting your time arguing with him (or why I am even writing this!)  

It's great that he has been listening to music for years and has such a high level of appreciation. So have I. But I wouldn't dare claim that "Mozart is easy" having only listened and not played any Mozart. But seriously, he's been playing for 5 months, what the hell could he possibly know about how difficult a given piece is to actually play? I've watched my father be an emergency room physician for the last 28 years and have a profound appreciation for what he does and have spent some time volunteering in that environment. But how naive would I sound if I were to imply as fact that one medical procedure is easier than another, having no experience actually performing any such procedures? And how incredibly arrogant and plain stupid would I sound if I were to say "I've decided I want to become a doctor like you Dad, but I don't want to worry about studying biology and anatomy or dealing with 8 years of school and residencies and another 20 or so in practice right now, I just want to perform the most difficult procedures ASAP and worry about that other stuff later on."

I'd sound about as stupid as breadboy does to the woman who responded that she's been studying Mozart for 40 years. It's laughable.  ::)

Breadboy has no idea what it will take to reach his goals, which is not an assumption I'm making, but a clear interpertation of his writings. With his attitude, I don't expect him to get very far as a pianist.  Success with piano requires a profound patience and dedication to the craft and yes humility. Wanting to play the most difficult pieces is a noble goal. But saying that you want it ASAP and will worry about sight reading, theory etc later has got to be the most laughably naive statement I have ever read from an aspiring pianist on an online forum. Which makes me wonder if he actually is learning piano, or just trolling with his profound appreciation of music for a good argument.

I have a feeling though that with the right attitude this gentleman could get quite far, as I don't doubt his appreciation for the music itself unless he's making good use of google as he writes up his responses.

Quote
breadboy wrote: 2. Personally, I would assume a massive declaration of personal character based on less than a paragraph of information cut out of a forum post to be a sign of a lack of patience and humility... but thats just me.


I've waited and read many paragraphs of information you've provided over several weeks time, and I'm pretty sure the conclusions reached by most readers of this forum are correct.

Prove us wrong my friend..

-Paul

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #79 on: October 12, 2004, 08:16:54 PM »
Quote
breadboy's comments are truly baffling me. They show a profound arrogance and most everything he says is simply naive. I don't know why you all are wasting your time arguing with him (or why I am even writing this!)


They seem to be eliciting responses so they hopefully aren’t that bad. :)

Quote
It's great that he has been listening to music for years and has such a high level of appreciation. So have I. But I wouldn't dare claim that "Mozart is easy" having only listened and not played any Mozart. But seriously, he's been playing for 5 months, what the hell could he possibly know about how difficult a given piece is to actually play? I've watched my father be an emergency room physician for the last 28 years and have a profound appreciation for what he does and have spent some time volunteering in that environment. But how naive would I sound if I were to imply as fact that one medical procedure is easier than another, having no experience actually performing any such procedures? And how incredibly arrogant and plain stupid would I sound if I were to say "I've decided I want to become a doctor like you Dad, but I don't want to worry about studying biology and anatomy or dealing with 8 years of school and residencies and another 20 or so in practice right now, I just want to perform the most difficult procedures ASAP and worry about that other stuff later on."


Personally, I’ll bet you’ve made plenty of claims that something is easy without actually doing it. Again, I won’t impugn your character so if this charge is false just say so. Is being a garbage man easy? Is driving a bus easy? Is reading a children’s book easy? The answer to each of these is yes, if you are a normal adult with a college education, and fluent in English. Speaking from a certain point of view, each of these is relatively easy. You do not have to engage in any of these activities to ascertain the level of difficulty involved, you just know. As to how you could say something is easier than something else, you could either ask or use common sense. For example, is putting a band-aid on someone easier than dealing with a collapsed lung? Also, medicine is not the best field to juxtapose with music, as society (rightly) puts many limitations on who can and cannot operate in the field (in addition to many other stark differences).

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I'd sound about as stupid as breadboy does to the woman who responded that she's been studying Mozart for 40 years. It's laughable.  ::)


Besides the character assassination that’s not quite what I did. Mozart is simply not known for being hard music. Hard and good are not interchangeable so please don’t assume I mean that, but on a curve of musical difficulty can Mozart really stand up to Beethoven, Liszt, Alkan, Godowsky, etc? The author admitted that no, when compared to later Beethoven Sonatas Mozart is easier but then went onto something else. She made a good point, that Mozart should be played a certain way and that makes Mozart difficult. I then asked what I thought was the next reasonable question: If it takes a certain manner of playing to make Mozart hard couldn’t you apply that to harder compositions and make them more difficult as well? Personally, I find all of my questions here reasonable.

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Breadboy has no idea what it will take to reach his goals, which is not an assumption I'm making, but a clear interpertation of his writings. With his attitude, I don't expect him to get very far as a pianist.  Success with piano requires a profound patience and dedication to the craft and yes humility. Wanting to play the most difficult pieces is a noble goal. But saying that you want it ASAP and will worry about sight reading, theory etc later has got to be the most laughably naive statement I have ever read from an aspiring pianist on an online forum. Which makes me wonder if he actually is learning piano, or just trolling with his profound appreciation of music for a good argument.


Lets hope I have at least some idea of what it takes to reach my goals (a piano, music, a teacher, etc.) :) Saying that success as a pianist requires… is a rather broad statement that means success is impossible outside the parameters you erect.

Humble - Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

Are you really going to agree that every great pianist throughout the 300 (or so) year history of the piano has been humble? Humility, while a wonderful trait is not required to play the piano well and judging from the lack of humility in other fields of human endeavor I’m sure that at some point there has been a great pianist that was not humble. I also wouldn’t say that wanting to play difficult pieces is noble. In honesty, it probably has nothing to do with morals, be they high or low. :) I will not dispute that sight reading has many wonderful uses, and that theory can make memorizing music much quicker as patterns that would not appear normally pop out. I also won’t take issue with the notion that sight reading and musical theory are both integral parts of any music education. What I will point out though, is that being a good sight reader and knowing your theory have few direct ties to playing piano correctly. Although I have nothing to point out on the musical theory side, I can use Marzio Pollini who said he is a terrible sight reader (he still manages to record wonderful Beethoven sonatas by the way) as an example on the sight reading one. Since I don’t feel like actually making an argument here, could you give me some things that are impossible to play without knowledge of musical theory (assuming memory is not part of the equation as I concede that point)?

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I don't doubt his appreciation for the music itself unless he's making good use of google as he writes up his responses.


Lol!!
In this instance no, I am not using google to get my information. I certainly don’t think there is anything wrong with doing that however.


Offline Egghead

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #80 on: October 12, 2004, 08:32:41 PM »
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breadboy's comments are truly baffling me. They show a profound arrogance and most everything he says is simply naive. I don't know why you all are wasting your time arguing with him (or why I am even writing this!)

As you point out, mound, it does not seem to be productive to argue any more. We are bordering m_b territory here.

Breadboy, if you believe in what you say, you will want to convince us with deeds. Send in your Für Elise and a brief excerpt of Fantasie Impromptu now, and do the same again in one or two months time.

I look forward to your recordings!
Egghead.
tell me why I only practice on days I eat

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #81 on: October 12, 2004, 10:26:08 PM »
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As you point out, mound, it does not seem to be productive to argue any more. We are bordering m_b territory here.

Breadboy, if you believe in what you say, you will want to convince us with deeds. Send in your Für Elise and a brief excerpt of Fantasie Impromptu now, and do the same again in one or two months time.

I look forward to your recordings!
Egghead.


I'm going to be getting an Iriver ihp-320 very soon and will then be able to post a recording for the itching ears here. :)

Offline mound

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #82 on: October 12, 2004, 10:30:55 PM »
The funniest thing breadboy is that I'm reading all of your posts, and, I really can't even force myself to believe that you are anything other a very intelligent human being.  You do make excellent arguments and counterpoints, which is why it's so amusing that when it comes down to it, your intent on remaining naive is the only thing that's going to keep you from your goals. It's like the recent college graduate who storms into a corporation "knowing everything" but in reality knows nothing.

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Personally, I’ll bet you’ve made plenty of claims that something is easy without actually doing it.

No, I don't think I have, but as you yourself say (I think, I'm not going to go back and find it), proving a negative is difficult, so I won't try.

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Is being a garbage man easy? Is driving a bus easy? Is reading a children’s book easy? The answer to each of these is yes, if you are a normal adult with a college education, and fluent in English.

You could argue it's easy to be a garbage man if you can do manual labor and have in fact ever picked up garbage. (Most of us have many times over in our lives). You could argue that it's easy to drive a bus if you have in fact driven a large vehicle at one point in time (most of us have at some point in our lives). It's easy to read a childrens book if you in fact have learned to read (all of us have, or we wouldn't be taking part in these forums.) You and I can call them "easy" because we have in fact experienced most or all of what is necessary to perform these activities well. Or have we? Emotionally, is it easy to be a garbage man or a bus driver? I couldn't say, my guess is that it might not be, it might be very difficult as you are working hard at early hours for little wage in a profession that is held with little regard by society. In that sense it may in fact be very hard, but I won't claim an argument having not had the experience to support it. Just as I won't claim that Mozart is easy having never learned to play any of it, regardless what it sounds or looks like on the score, as the score is only a model of the music, and until you have the education in your mind and experience in your fingers to recreate that model in an appropriate fashion, you have no idea how easy it may in fact be. Some things are deceptively difficult.

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You do not have to engage in any of these activities to ascertain the level of difficulty involved, you just know.
And this is where your argument fails (the only place as far as I can tell.) You don’t just know, you assume if it’s based on anything other than experience (and even then you might be wrong.) Your assumption could perhaps be correct, but accepting assumed knowledge as fact in the absence of experience is naive (and possibly dangerous). In addition, since you are clearly a fan (or at least a reader) of the Chang book, for a virtuoso pianist to perform the Fantaisie Impromptu, it is in fact easy. The execution of it is easy, but only after a massive amount of hard work has been put in to make it easy for the player at that time in their experience.

You, having only played piano 4 or 5 months, can only assume at how easy a given piece of music will be to play. The pieces you are stating you want to play “ASAP” are well outside the range of anything you have physically experienced playing. I can watch the garbage man go by every week, and watch the bus driver pick up the kids every morning, but I can't claim to understand their experience and while it's easy for me to say "it'd be so easy to be a bus driver", in fact, I'd have to have prepared myself in dealing with children, and have experienced the responsibility of holding their lives in my hands every morning, in order to claim that profession is easy. For the bus driver, whom through experience knows the best way to deal with this every morning, it might well have become easy for him. Hand you the keys and you might be pulling your hair out by the end of the 2nd day. It's all in context.

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Besides the character assassination that’s not quite what I did.
It is not your character I, or anybody else (I hope!) is attacking. It's the naivety in light of otherwise intelligent arguments.

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Lets hope I have at least some idea of what it takes to reach my goals (a piano, music, a teacher, etc.)
I will grant you that. You are physically prepared. I'm not sure you are prepared intellectually. Get past the idea that you can achieve the level of performance you are striving for quickly without first developing the tools to facilitate that process, and I think you’ll be well on your way.

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Humble - Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.
Are you really going to agree that every great pianist throughout the 300 (or so) year history of the piano has been humble?

Ok, I’ll give you this. According to definition, you are right, you don't have to be humble to be a great pianist. It’s just one of those things that will help you be a better person. A better person is a happier person, is a more patient person, is more willing to patiently tackle the challenges before them. Required? No. Helpful? Probably.  By the way, characteristics of the human condition can only be semantically defined by dictionary entries. IF your life experience prevents you from having any meaningful understanding of what humility is about, I feel sorry for you. I don’t judge you, I only feel sorry.

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I will not dispute that sight reading has many wonderful uses, and that theory can make memorizing music much quicker as patterns that would not appear normally pop out. I also won’t take issue with the notion that sight reading and musical theory are both integral parts of any music education.

Gee, ya think?? You would think then, that since it is so clear to you what tools are necessary to play the difficult pieces as soon as possible, that you would want to develop those tools. What makes you think you can get from point A to B w/o any of the necessary tools? Surely you *can* get from point A to B with all of the wrong tools (or none at all) but it will take you considerably longer. Your question was about how to reach that point "as soon as possible." Develop these tools and you will proceed with far fewer obstacles. For somebody who clearly possesses (and this is not said in jest) intelligence and excellent debating skills, again, it baffles me to think that you actually believe the core of your argument.

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could you give me some things that are impossible to play without knowledge of musical theory

jazz.

I will grant you that you can learn to execute difficult piano music without any knowledge of music theory. The score is there, go through it with brute force and learn it. But again, you want to speed this process up, so develop the tools that will enable you to do so.  And theory doesn't have to only encompass the language of music (scales/chords etc.) - The historical context and intent of a piece of repertoir can and often is more important than its harmonic analysis,  and without that your "interpretation" (if you can call it that) is probably going to sound aweful regardless how many of the notes you hit correctly.  (or it might not, you could be one of those few genius players who don't need any of this. more power to ya, I doubt this is the case though)



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Lol!!
In this instance no, I am not using google to get my information. I certainly don’t think there is anything wrong with doing that however.

I was only hoping to lighten the mood with that comment. LOL.  There is only something wrong with that if you portray the knowledge gained from it as having come from your experience, rather than "hey I just looked this up to prove my point" (which is fine as well if it's referenced). If all of your comparisons of repertoire and composers and pianists contained in the previous posts came from the knowledge in your head, wonderful. But if you pulled it all from google just before writing it into your arguments, then you’re even worse off than I imagine. I don’t believe that to be the case, but that’s where I’d see a problem with spewing google’d, rather than learned facts.

Patience my friend. Good luck to you breadboy!

Oh and ps. I too would love to hear a recording of your completed Für Elise.  I’m assuming you’ve finished it by now?

-Paul

Offline goansongo

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #83 on: October 13, 2004, 10:57:27 AM »
You should try the piece if you really do like it that much.  The thing is, your fingers probably aren't strong enough and fast enough to play it up to speed.  People usually try to get past this by using a lot of damper pedal.  Avoid this...  Even when playing.  It may take you a long time to learn the piece though, but in the end, it's well worth it.  It's not as hard as it sounds, but for someone of your level, it's going to be pretty difficult.  Just remember... Clarity!  Individual notes, less pedal, start slow, and in a few months, you'll get it IF you do devote enough time to it.

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #84 on: October 14, 2004, 04:26:16 AM »
You should try the piece if you really do like it that much.  The thing is, your fingers probably aren't strong enough and fast enough to play it up to speed.  People usually try to get past this by using a lot of damper pedal.  Avoid this...  Even when playing.  It may take you a long time to learn the piece though, but in the end, it's well worth it.  It's not as hard as it sounds, but for someone of your level, it's going to be pretty difficult.  Just remember... Clarity!  Individual notes, less pedal, start slow, and in a few months, you'll get it IF you do devote enough time to it.

Yes I'm having
A LOT
of trouble now with both the una corda and damper pedal dependance to make my playing sound nice but it's not a very nice price.  Plus I have the world's worst time to play the 5th bar and onwards with HT at a P or even PP dynamic level.

Offline wriggletto

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #85 on: October 15, 2004, 02:24:07 PM »
Breadboy, there is a difference between technically difficult and "Hard" music. You seem to be of the "Hard and fast" school of music, where music with big chords and fast runs are hard, while anything else is not.

Music is more than hitting keys, and getting the rhythm right. Take any one of the 'easy' Chopin Nocturnes. Notewise, they're not difficult to learn. But to play it beautifully, to play it musically, and not just tap out the notes one after another, is another thing entirely. Difficulty is not only in the notes. A trained monkey could play notes.

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #86 on: October 20, 2004, 06:26:51 AM »
I find Chopin's prelude no 4 technically newb, but emotionally complex.  Takes maybe 30 mins to get the correct chords without too much hesitation, but the dynamics really are where we make wine, isn't that right Bernie?

Offline waldstein

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #87 on: November 05, 2004, 12:06:50 PM »
I belive Beethoven was "Sight Reading" Bach's Well Tempered Klavier, including the fugues when was 11 !!!!
Liszt is said to have sight read many late Beethoven sonatas
Medellsohn played one on one what Lizst played in some concert right after him, after listening to it the first time.

BreadBoy, if u can do FI in 6 monts, then you can aim to be in league of those mentioned above.


Offline mound

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #88 on: November 05, 2004, 05:44:10 PM »
This thread has been quiet.. I kept being tempted to post to it, since Breadboy seems to have disappeared.. We're still waiting to hear the Fur Elise (if that is, he ever finished it  ;)

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #89 on: November 06, 2004, 01:28:40 AM »
This thread has been quiet.. I kept being tempted to post to it, since Breadboy seems to have disappeared.. We're still waiting to hear the Fur Elise (if that is, he ever finished it  ;)

oh come now, I'm still very much here :) I also don't have my recording device just yet so you can hear it... but by the way i did finish it a few weeks ago and am now (on the advice of someone earlier) going to play rondo alla turca before i jump completely into the fantasie. Rest assured though, I will start the fantasie within a month or two once turca is finished (if the pathetique doesn't distract me first)

Offline Daniel_piano

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #90 on: November 06, 2004, 02:14:38 AM »
I think is totally impossible to say what is easier and what is harder
Statements as "moonlight is easier than that, or impromptu is harder than that" are completely meaningless
Syllabus themselves can't establish what is harder or easier and you find a lot of differences between countries
The point is that what is harder, is what is harder for us and noone else
But what maybe hard or not easy to understand for us maybe a piece of cake for someone else

For example I'm a good swimmer
I've always been a good swimmer, I was a good swimmer even when I was 4 years old
On the other hand my sister found learning how to swim the most difficult thing in the world, while she was very good in math
She is 13 right now and she isn't yet able to swim

It would be completely meaningless and fair for me to say to her that swimming is easy

I find octaves, even very fast octaves, super easy
I don't know why, when I was a beginner my teacher introduced me to the octaves and scales by octaves and she told me that it was very hard and I needed time to learn
The same day I played those octaves better than her much to her surprise
So, any piece with a lot of octaves is easy to me

On the other hand I have a friend who is not good at octaves and have to study them very hard but he is good with thirds
Any piece with lots of third is a child play to him, while I completely sucks at thirds and I consider those pieces with a lot of thids the hardest ones

Who is right?
We're both right as by saying "this is hard to me" we put the whole easy/hard issue in prospective, i.e. it's a subjective and completely senseless thing
The words "hard" and "easy" should be written-off the dictionary as they don't exist They should be substituted with the subjective and variable  "being less able" or "being more able"
Being subjective this doesn't exist too and it's not an arbitrary condition but a perception of the presents with no repercussions in the whole world perception

Because of this I think that when talking about piano repertoire whe can only consider us as much advantages as our whole path and not only the pieces we've been able to play
The reason is that we may be able to master an advantaces piece just because its structure is something we've a natural attitude for
I had a friend that could play 3rd movement of Beethoven moonlight sonata very well but he couldn't learn Bach invention N.1 in four months
Even though he was able to play a 7 grade piece he was not by any mean a 7 grader and he wasn't able to make a sense of far more below grades pieces
There were probably something in the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata that he found naturally and instinctively easy because of his personal attitude, but that had nothing to do with his aquired technique

Daniel
"Sometimes I lie awake at night and ask "Why me?" Then a voice answers "Nothing personal, your name just happened to come up.""

Offline xacycx

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #91 on: November 07, 2004, 01:00:33 AM »


8. I'm not going to piddle with a Mozart sonata... I'd rather get to the edge and be playing Godowsky's passacaglia in a few years rather then be worried about the easier stuff now. I always have time to go back and pick up the easy stuff. :)



You do realize that Rondo Alla Turca is the 3rd movement of the K331 Sonata in A, By Mozart? Why do you suddenly want to play it now, and put Fantasie Impromptu on hold?

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #92 on: November 08, 2004, 07:40:47 PM »


8. I'm not going to piddle with a Mozart sonata... I'd rather get to the edge and be playing Godowsky's passacaglia in a few years rather then be worried about the easier stuff now. I always have time to go back and pick up the easy stuff. :)



You do realize that Rondo Alla Turca is the 3rd movement of the K331 Sonata in A, By Mozart? Why do you suddenly want to play it now, and put Fantasie Impromptu on hold?

du lu lu lu lu...du lu lu lu  lu.........du du du du du du du du du du du du du du du
 etc repeat

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #93 on: November 09, 2004, 07:28:39 AM »
Actually now, I'm finding I'm stalling A LOT in the Fantasie...it's like I'm not improving much anymore, and that really gets me worried...

I can do HT but its always way too loud, and I have a bad habit of using the soft pedal.  I've been working on this thing since mid May 2004...and um, yeah I think I need some one to actually show me what's going on.

Offline goansongo

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #94 on: November 11, 2004, 08:58:25 AM »
Maybe you could try playing the piece slower and divide it up into a few measures at a time.  Like pick a "phrase" and keep playing those measures again and again. 

Offline breadboy

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #95 on: November 12, 2004, 01:55:31 AM »


8. I'm not going to piddle with a Mozart sonata... I'd rather get to the edge and be playing Godowsky's passacaglia in a few years rather then be worried about the easier stuff now. I always have time to go back and pick up the easy stuff. :)



You do realize that Rondo Alla Turca is the 3rd movement of the K331 Sonata in A, By Mozart? Why do you suddenly want to play it now, and put Fantasie Impromptu on hold?
I'm very well aware that this is the rondo for a Mozart sonata.

Unfortunatly, the call of the heart (which overrides any technical concerns mind you) requires that I play this sonata (I also want to learn the theme for Cheers by the way :) )

Offline The Swede

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Re: should I start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #96 on: November 12, 2004, 06:22:11 PM »
I try sometimes to play the FI as octaves. Slowly of course, that´s a funny challenge  :D

I wanna hear Daniel_piano play it, if he wants...or anyone...I don´t have the time to practise..

Offline ujos3

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #97 on: November 13, 2004, 01:51:48 AM »
mmm ....Breadboy, please tell me...do you give lessons? I could not pay much but i'd like you to be my piano teacher, you seem to know a lot of things about piano, composers and all that stuff...

By the way...I just have being learning piano for a week and want to play for Chopin competition next year, could it be possible?

Thanks for your reply

Spatula

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #98 on: November 13, 2004, 04:42:56 AM »
Maybe you could try playing the piece slower and divide it up into a few measures at a time.  Like pick a "phrase" and keep playing those measures again and again. 

That's what I've been doing, like cycling bars 7 and 8 etc etc etc RH only...then cycle some LH stuff.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: should i start the fantasie impromptu?
«Reply #99 on: November 13, 2004, 07:59:10 AM »
First of all hearing someone doing Fur Elise then moving to Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, how do we even measure the distance in difficulty that is? That is different for everyone. For most of us its like black and white the difficulty, but even I have met beginners who are frighteningly talented.

I reckon you should always be open to put any music infront of yourself and try to play it. But as a matter of efficiency, if you find yourself stuck mid way after a month or two choose something easier! Where you waste your time on a piece which might take you 1 year of devoted attention you could learn 10 smaller pieces and really build your skills. Still theres no problems studying a harder piece along side with smaller stuff. Maybe after so many years of practice on smaller pieces when you tackle "harder" peices they will seem easier because you have all the tools and experience from previous peices.

So i reckon by all means start the fantasie impromptu, but make sure you don't waste your time or frustrate yourself. :P

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