Fantasie Impromptu Project

[birba]

And I notice you do those stopping and relaxing exercises very good.  The fingerwork is quick and precise.  Now do 2 groups at a time, but be sure you relax inbetween and your arm and hand are completely free. 

[candlelightpiano]

Margherita: Thanks for your encouragement. I tried to incorporate a musical intention but unfortunately, while playing the passage, my beautiful maiden fell off her horse and broke a couple of ribs!   But I tried to think of her riding through the woods with the wind blowing her hair behind with this great feeling of freedom. During practice last night, it was better. There were a few less starts and stops. I have a feeling it will all flow seamlessly soon. Thanks once again.

[candlelightpiano]

And I notice you do those stopping and relaxing exercises very good.  The fingerwork is quick and precise.  Now do 2 groups at a time, but be sure you relax inbetween and your arm and hand are completely free.  

I'll do that, Birba. Thanks for your suggestions and advice. I hope to produce a better video next time.

[ajspiano]

Hi choo,

Here's my video for you..  in the end i chose not to address anything that you specifically talked about in your progress video. Rather, it will indirectly help with them as it address something fundamental to playing as a whole. I hope that you can gain a greater understanding about hand balance and how to move between notes as a result.

I need to say a couple of things in regard to the content -

Firstly, this is a SERIOUSLY in depth demonstration. I would probably not have addressed it this way in person. I think the depth of explanation is warranted because its in a video, where as in person I could have made a better judgement on exactly which part is difficult for you and focused on that.

As you watch the video, you may find that it makes sense, but when you go to apply it that it feels odd or you don't quite know how to execute the rotations. Particularly when the direction is going the same as on the previous note.. for example..  if you have a phrase that goes "left, right, right, right" - you may feel as though you dont really have to rotate right each time to play the note. This is because those rotations are incredibly small, especially between fingers 2,3 and 4.

With that in mind, I think you need to think about and focus mainly on the changes of direction - make sure these are done correctly, as this is where the problems occur. Example, if you go left when you should have gone right you will place your hand/fingers significantly off balance. Where the direction is not changing (ie. left,left or right,right), you are likely doing it correctly already so I don't want you to dwell on that and over think it.

On the amount of rotation -

Each of your fingers has a balance point, - loosely explained, the 3rd finger is the middle point and each of the fingers either side of it have varying degrees of rotation in order to keep them balanced. The 2nd finger will be slightly more to the left than the 3rd, the thumb will be more so that the 2nd finger..  the 4th and 5th go to the right. When the amount of rotation is correct each finger will be placed in a comfortable supported position over the key - what this means is that there will generally be no tilting of the fingers when you rotate in a given direction. The movement is small enough that the each finger will land vertical over the key. I know this is likely a little confusing, so maybe i'll do another video later about balance and such. When you attempt to do it you should be able to feel if you are going to far one way or another though as it will feel wrong and difficult to play.

Speak soon,
AJ

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you so much, AJ! I enjoyed that very much! I love the way you play this piece, with your delicate and fluid touch, which is so Chopin. It feels like being "on air." I need to read your notes and watch your video several more times to really understand the rotation of the hand in relation to the fingers but I can see what you mean when you say that I'll be able to apply this to everything else that I'm working on. I'll show you how well I've learned it with a video as soon as I feel comfortable with the rotation, probably in a day or two. Thanks so much once again!!

PS: I suppose you don't have to do this rotation on bars like 5-6 but you would do it on bars 11 - 12 and from 13 onward? I was just thinking that Birba's exercises for bars 13 onward does incorporate this kind of rotation, don't you think?

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:

I'm trying the rotation and I'm utterly perplexed! I'll try and explain here:

1. In bar 7, I understood the rotation in the first 12 notes, with the thumb always rotating Left and the rest of the fingers rotating in the direction of the notes (to the right if notes are heading upward, left if heading downward). But then instead of rotating left for D# (3rd last note of bar 7),  you said to rotate right even though we're coming down to D# from E?

2. In Bar 8, 4th note (G#), why are we rotating right? Shouldn't it be left since the notes are heading down? Same question for the 8th note (D#) and the 3rd last note (G#)?

Thanks.  Choo

[ajspiano]

This is an excellent question choo, and is exactly the reason that people would have problems on the way down in these bars.

If you read/play through the notes you'll see that each of the notes where you have questioned the direction of rotation is a note played after the thumb. So, while the direction of the notes is left, the direction the fingers are moving is right.

This is of course difficult to figure out on your own because not only are the notes left, but the fingers are brought across over the thumb. Which means that the notes are left, and the fingers are on the left of the thumb. But that is specifically why you have to go right, because on the thumb you should be turning to the extreme left of your forearms motion.. you can't go any further left..

If you try to go left on these notes after your thumb you'll see that you will end up extremely left on your 3rd finger (it will not be going vertically down at the key), and you're hand will be exceedingly unbalanced..  If you do that at a high speed your hand and fingers will fall left off all the notes and you will never be able to play the phrase with any accuracy.

I realised that this would be a tough concept for you to understand without me being able to watch and adjust your technique in real time. If you are still experiencing some confusion I will see if I can provide a video that explains what I've said here from a better angle.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for the explanation, AJ. I think I understand now why the fingers have to rotate right after the thumb. I also found it easier to play these two bars with rotation, even if I may have rotated wrongly on those 4 notes but I'll remedy that.

So for bar 11, for example, would I rotate right on the A# (3rd last note) because it comes after the thumb again? And in bar 12, for the first 3 16th note groups, it's basically RLRL? But in the last 16th note group, it should be RLLR?

[ajspiano]

Thanks for the explanation, AJ. I think I understand now why the fingers have to rotate right after the thumb. I also found it easier to play these two bars with rotation, even if I may have rotated wrongly on those 4 notes but I'll remedy that.

So for bar 11, for example, would I rotate right on the A# (3rd last note) because it comes after the thumb again? And in bar 12, for the first 3 16th note groups, it's basically RLRL? But in the last 16th note group, it should be RLLR?

Bar 11, A# - yes.
Bar 12 - Yes, exactly - you've got it.

I'm sure it will take you a bit of slow practice to get it smooth, if you speed up to soon you may be inclined to revert back to not rotating.

..Be mindful that this is only one step in a much bigger question on how to play the notes. Bar 12 in particular I have a fair bit to say, and an absolutely massive amount to say for 13-14 and onward.

[caioramos]

Nice video AJ, it was good for me too since when I first started this piece my main difficult was bars 7/8. My biggest problem was the 5th finger on the RH on the second lower F#, because I felt my hand was too down to the edge of the piano and I had to twist my wrist to reach my 5th to the black note. Also I had problems on the big jump on the LH that goes from C to lower Gb.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: Thanks for answering my question. I'm happy I got it right. I feel better. What do you have to say about bars 13 onward?

Kyle: I don't see the jump you're talking about in your LH. Do you mean C to F# in bar 7?

[caioramos]

The transition from bar 7 to 8,  C# to octave down G# actually

[ajspiano]

The transition from bar 7 to 8,  C# to octave down G# actually

Roughly, lift up off the C#. your hand is going to do a bit of a loop up and over to the g#, in a arc shape, and rotate left onto your 5th finger..

As opposed to moving only laterally, and trying to go to quickly to the left. Doing it this way makes it difficult to hit. Its always easier to come down onto a note than try to play it whilst shootin across is left or right.

[candlelightpiano]

Oh, yes, I have to work on the LH too! But I think once I get the hang of it, it won't be as difficult as it is today.

So, AJ, for the LH, it's LRRRLL?

[ajspiano]

Yes, that is the pattern for the left hand.. I really think you'll need to address some 'wrist circles' for that aswell. But I won't try to write that down.. Need visual.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ. I'll work on both hands tonight, hopefully do a video tomorrow if I feel comfortable with the rotation. Wrist circles? OMG! What is that? I also like to learn how you keep your wrists so supple and relaxed. I'm trying to do that when I practice now. If your wrists are so relaxed, how do you play a forte or ff?

[costicina]

Hi AJ,
I’ve watched the marvellous tutorial video you made for Candlelight. Your are really an outstanding teacher!!!

We all can benefit from your detailled, brilliant explanations. They are useful in general, not only for this specific piece. I'll keep them in  mind while practicing. 

Thank you very much for your generous help (please, keep on posting this kind of “virtual” lessons, they are precious to us!)
Cheers
Margherita   

[ajspiano]

I'm not sure that 'wrist circles' is the best name, it's not really a wrist motion - that's just where it's visible. I think we should save it for a little while in anycase because you will have enough to think about and apply with rotation for the moment.

@costicina

I'm glad you liked the video, I think I will likely post more however I'm unsure of when or on what at this point. I'm obviously happy to help choo and was equally happy to help kyle in the other thread. I feel as though it's a little unfair though since there are many people on the forum that would benifit from such lessons and I don't really have time to make something specifically for everyone.

EDIT: That sounds a little self important - not my intention. I don't really think that I have all the answers.

Its just that I've noticed that on this forum there isnt really a great deal of active "experts" - everyone offers bits and pieces of advice but theres not alot of new ground broken, or organisation leading people to the good info. I think there should be people, whatever their experience posting there ideas about technique/interpretation or any thing else, and some lively debate on the content..  I'm certainly happy to have a crack at that..  if people specifically want to see more from me then so be it, but i think the forum (and piano knowledge on general) would do better with many contributors talking about this kind of thing in depth.

In any case, there's only about 20-30 views on either video at this point so who knows whether people are really that interested overall.

[candlelightpiano]

Its just that I've noticed that on this forum there isnt really a great deal of active "experts" - everyone offers bits and pieces of advice but theres not alot of new ground broken, or organisation leading people to the good info. I think there should be people, whatever their experience posting there ideas about technique/interpretation or any thing else, and some lively debate on the content..  I'm certainly happy to have a crack at that..  if people specifically want to see more from me then so be it, but i think the forum (and piano knowledge on general) would do better with many contributors talking about this kind of thing in depth.

In any case, there's only about 20-30 views on either video at this point so who knows whether people are really that interested overall.

AJ: Perhaps you could start a technique/ interpretation topic on the forum? I would be interested in it, not as a participant, but as an observer/ student.

Your videos are only being viewed by people watching the two topics you've posted on. That's why there are so few views. Now if you created a topic such as the one you're thinking about, you could post those videos there and have more views and feedback from the "experts." I think there are a good # of experts on this forum. I can name two! 

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: There appears to be some problem with your video tonight. I was watching it just a moment ago and I can hear you and see you sitting there on the bench but your hand doesn't move sometimes. Can you please try it out? Thanks.

[ajspiano]

I didnt watch it right through, but it appears to be working fine..

try going to keepvid.com and put the youtube link in..

this should allow you to download the video file and play it directly from you're computer, if you're still having trouble I can post it on my website for download later on.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ! That was a lot better. I'll check your video out on this page, too, tomorrow. See if it works better. Would it be okay with you if I post your video to my blog? Thanks.

[ajspiano]

Thanks, AJ! That was a lot better. I'll check your video out on this page, too, tomorrow. See if it works better. Would it be okay with you if I post your video to my blog? Thanks.

yes thats fine.. the more the merrier I guess..  I suppose I should have some kind of link to my site in the videos, and post them there as well..  I'll have to find time to do some web editing and build a blog/lesson page I guess.

maybe post the written stuff too..  incase anyone else has the same confusion that you did..

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ. I'll go and do that now before I record my video. My blog address is:

https://www.projectfantasie.blogspot.com

in case you'd like to take a look at it later. Your video and info should be there within the hour.

[keyboardclass]

IIts just that I've noticed that on this forum there isnt really a great deal of active "experts" - everyone offers bits and pieces of advice but theres not alot of new ground broken, or organisation leading people to the good info. I think there should be people, whatever their experience posting there ideas about technique/interpretation or any thing else, and some lively debate on the content..  I'm certainly happy to have a crack at that..  if people specifically want to see more from me then so be it, but i think the forum (and piano knowledge on general) would do better with many contributors talking about this kind of thing in depth.

Careful you're not shouted down in words rather than deeds! - I've done my share of vid posting.  By the way, I assume you're a Taubman student?

[ajspiano]

Careful you're not shouted down in words rather than deeds! - I've done my share of vid posting.  By the way, I assume you're a Taubman student?

I didnt mean to tread on anyone's toes, obviously there are some experts here. It has a different feel to other forums I've been on though (non piano related) where there is a real solid group of experts that posts on every single question thread and keeps everyone in line. 'Students' are expected to make an attempt at solving problems and post their ideas etc. That doesn't really exist here..  Maybe it does in other sections. I've mostly been posting in the students corner though and that's the impression I get. No insult meant to the solid contributors that do exist such as yourself. You are one I've picked out as worth reading/watching..  It is hard to find past information though, great posts should be indexed or something.. I'm sure this has been said before though

I hardly count as a 'taubman student' no actual lessons. I have obviously watched the videos though, (highly evident in the video I posted here) and I like the explanations a lot and agree with them.

I don't really like the idea of classifying oneself as taubman either.. It's all piano, and I'm sure other people are/were aware of concepts like hers without having ever been exposed to 'the taubman techniques'

[keyboardclass]

Careful you're not shouted down in words rather than deeds!

I meant there are some here who will be happy to disparage your efforts but fail to put up anything of their own.   Carry on, you're doing a great service.  I think if nothing else your video, with all its rotation, is a good way to get learners to slow down and think about what they are doing.   From having just reviewed the thread there's a lot of re-thinking technique-wise that needs attending to.

[costicina]

I agree with Kyeboardclass, carry on, you are really doing a precious service to the forumeers, and is very generous of you to spend time and efforts to help us!!!!

Margherita

[keyboardclass]

May I ask a question of the learners?  What key does it modulate to in page 1?  If you don't know right away please say so.  Oh, and good job birba too!

[candlelightpiano]

I have no idea.

[keyboardclass]

I have no idea.

Then that is part of your problem.

[birba]

That's really not bad at all, choo choo!  I don't know whether it's my imagination or not, but you seem to be articulating better and the passage going up and down is quite good.  I don't want to change anything, but I use this fingering (coming down from the high "b")  5-4-3-2-1-3-5-2-1-4-1-3-2-4-1-3-5-2-1-4-1-2-4-3  I found this fingering keeps my hand in a relaxed unstretched position.  Watch the pedal.  Way too much.  It sounds like you're using one pedal for the whole measure.  You're main problem now is the octave thing - your hand is way too tense.  And you speed up the tempo out of control.  Practise lots and lots with the accent excercise.  First on the thumb and then on the 5th finger when it changes.  Even when you're playing hands together, play that passage like the excercise.

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you, Birba, for your comments and suggestions. I'll incorporate them. I'm glad you think my articulation has improved.

[candlelightpiano]

Then that is part of your problem.

E major. And I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't like you.

[costicina]

God job, choo, choo!!! You are "constructing" the piece bit by bit...at the end o the process you'll be proud of yourself!!!
Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

God job, choo, choo!!! You are "constructing" the piece bit by bit...at the end o the process you'll be proud of yourself!!!
Margherita

Thanks, Margherita! I look forward to the "end of the process"! 

[keyboardclass]

E major. And I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't like you.

Sounds rude to me!  So I'm out.  Actually to G# minor, then on to E Major.

[candlelightpiano]

Sounds rude to me!  So I'm out.  Actually to G# minor, then on to E Major.

Your comment is like the pot calling the kettle black! And G# minor is only a passing through the mediant of E major, the final destination of that modulation.

[unholeee]

if it makes you feel any better i was going to guess D# major :p i played a reasonable bit through the first page to go along with the techniques in the thread.

both appear a little rude, but im sure after 5 weeks of playing this piece is manifesting itself - i got angry in less than 2 hours!

keep up the good work, dont take it too much to heart. im enjoying the videos and progress.

[ajspiano]

Great work. I will have to go back and watch your original video to judge any improvement - however I can make a lot of suggestions from this video. There is an enormous amount of tension in your hand and from this angle I feel like your rotation is fairly from the wrist and so your wrist is moving around too much for speed. However, the fact that your wrists are moving more suggests to me that they are loosening up. Is that the case?

birbas fingering is the same as what I'm using (I think) - it is for most of it.

The real question about your improvement for me is how do you feel about it? It's unfortunate that you said you have no idea if you've learnt much. To me you have obviously gained a basic idea of rotation which is a great step. Now you just need to refine the execution.

[candlelightpiano]

if it makes you feel any better i was going to guess D# major :p i played a reasonable bit through the first page to go along with the techniques in the thread.

both appear a little rude, but im sure after 5 weeks of playing this piece is manifesting itself - i got angry in less than 2 hours!

keep up the good work, dont take it too much to heart. im enjoying the videos and progress.

I'm glad I'm not alone. I'm not usually rude to people unless they're rude to me first. I believe in standing up for myself. Thank you for your kind words.

[candlelightpiano]

Great work. I will have to go back and watch your original video to judge any improvement - however I can make a lot of suggestions from this video. There is an enormous amount of tension in your hand and from this angle I feel like your rotation is fairly from the wrist and so your wrist is moving around too much for speed. However, the fact that your wrists are moving more suggests to me that they are loosening up. Is that the case?

birbas fingering is the same as what I'm using (I think) - it is for most of it.

The real question about your improvement for me is how do you feel about it? It's unfortunate that you said you have no idea if you've learnt much. To me you have obviously gained a basic idea of rotation which is a great step. Now you just need to refine the execution.

AJ:

1. My wrists were moving because I was doing the rotations, I thought. I definitely feel a lot of tension when playing the accented passage that Birba was talking about earlier. I feel fatigued when I'm done so I do know that I'm very tense.

2. I don't remember saying that I had no idea that I'd learned much. Did I say it on the video?  I feel that I have learned a lot since I began, especially after a 19 year hiatus from classical piano.

Thanks so much, AJ! You've been a great deal of help to me.

[ajspiano]

1. My wrists were moving because I was doing the rotations, I thought. I definitely feel a lot of tension when playing the accented passage that Birba was talking about earlier. I feel fatigued when I'm done so I do know that I'm very tense.

again, I don't want to tread on anyones toes, since people sometimes say rotation of the wrist. But 'rotation', while seen in the wrist, has nothing to do with the wrist. The movement comes from the elbow, it is forearm rotation. As keyboardclass pointed out this is a very 'taubman' like explanation. But, all the pedagogical references seem to be saying this same thing, even if they say it with different words.. atleast as far as I can tell, I havent read/studied/watched them all in depth yet. Fink certainly talks about it, and its in lister-sink, and alan fraser.

I think birba said somewhere that the technique is very difficult to teach via video/internet. This is exactly why. You obviously misunderstood to some degree, and I wasnt there to say, "no, like this" (and demonstrate again) when you made an attempt at it..  Multiple videos, or a lesson is likely need here for you to fully understand. You understood that you should move a certain direction, and tried to - but actually moved a completely different way to my intention, or perhaps rather made additional movements alongside the rotational movement.

-

There is great tension coming from your 5th finger. Watch your video, see how it curls up? You need to start using your fingers together as a unit to avoid this.. I won't try to explain what to do here in words, you'll have great difficulty understanding without a video.

2. I don't remember saying that I had no idea that I'd learned much. Did I say it on the video?  I feel that I have learned a lot since I began, especially after a 19 year hiatus from classical piano.

I have no idea. But here's the video that I made last night to show AJ what I did or did not learn:

EDIT:
I should probably point out that the kind of wrist movement you're doing isnt necessarily wrong, even if it's probably a bit excessive..  its just that it isn't how to do the rotation..

[candlelightpiano]

Oh, dear, where should I start? I'm perplexed! Could you make a video for me demonstrating everything you've said here? Do you think one lesson in person would iron out those problems? I thought I had improved but now I"m not so sure. It sounds like a lifetime pursuit!

[ajspiano]

It sounds like a lifetime pursuit!

hahah hit the nail on the head there.

I'll ofcourse be happy to make you something to iron out the details here, not sure when i'll get too it, though it won't take too long..

in the mean time -
look at your RH at around 0:57 (as you begin the phrase) - this is the wrist movement I'm talking about (though its not controlled by your wrist, you are doing it by bringing your arm up), you are raising your wrist to a fairly extreme level there.. compare this to the height of my wrist when I'm playing the whole phrase quickly at the end of my video.. 

Not saying mines perfect, I think my posture was a bit off when i was recording some of it.. but my wrist doesnt go up and down like that. There may be slight up/down adjusments, but its not large like yours is.

If you attempt this and feel like "how can I rotate without doing that?" - don't worry, all will be clear in time, I will do my best to explain in another video soon.

[candlelightpiano]

I don't know if I'll live long enough to learn all this! But I watched my video and yours and noticed lots of differences but the obvious one is that you have your wrist higher on the keyboard than mine. Mine always looks like it's falling off the keys or right on top of the keys. Do you think it would help if I raised my hands higher when playing? I can see that my wrists were high. I thought I had to raise them high for the rotation.

[ajspiano]

I don't know if I'll live long enough to learn all this! But I watched my video and yours and noticed lots of differences but the obvious one is that you have your wrist higher on the keyboard than mine. Mine always looks like it's falling off the keys or right on top of the keys. Do you think it would help if I raised my hands higher when playing? I can see that my wrists were high. I thought I had to raise them high for the rotation.

I'm not going to answer this in a written form..  there is a rough ideal wrist height for the basic posture. But, wrist height changes for a variety of reasons as you play, and I think mine may be exaggerated by the camera angle and the fact that these notes are high up on the keyboard. In a video I will be able to show why this happens and demonstrate when/why it can change.. with written words it is far too difficult. Whole books have failed at this..

[caioramos]

I also noticed the AJ's wrists looks quite high above the keys, but as he said, it's hard to truly tell because of the camera angle

[candlelightpiano]

Kyle: It's good to see you here! How are you? Packed for Calgary yet?

[ajspiano]

I also noticed the AJ's wrists looks quite high above the keys, but as he said, it's hard to truly tell because of the camera angle

What I notice is that my elbow is high..  this is likely why my wrist is higher. There is is a whole myriad of potential reasons for this. For the majority of the video the primary reason for this is likely that I was leaning to the left (you can't see that at all since the camera angle doesnt show my body very well) meaning that my right shoulder was probably also raised .. I was trying to get a slightly better comprehension of what the camera could see. Another possibility is perhaps exaggerated rotation toward the thumb (this brings the elbow out).

Additionally, when I play the fragment of the piece all together at the end, my left hand wrist is also noticeably high..  this one I think is a result of my wrist also being turned to the left, and partly me being a little too close to the piano.. both things that I should fix.

There is likely a residual effect of me having learnt this piece years and years ago before I had any level of technical understanding, I think some of these factors apply to my polonaise aswell..  hardly an excuse, but a reason none the less. Perhaps also because the focus of this video was entirely on the direction of rotation I was not being overly concerned with other factors..  this is no doubt something I need to improve on as far as this kind of demonstration goes..