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Author Topic: Fantasie Impromptu Project  (Read 40051 times)
candlelightpiano
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« on: December 01, 2011, 05:42:42 AM »

Hello everyone:

I'm learning to play Fantasie Impromptu so I decided to create a blog in order to post my progress. If you are learning the same piece or wanting to learn it, please follow my blog at:

http://projectfantasie.blogspot.com/

If you already play this piece, I welcome your comments and suggestions.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 12:08:51 AM »

I've made some progress and posted a new videoclip:

http://projectfantasie.blogspot.com/2011/12/step-2.html

I hope you'll go and take a look and post a comment. I look forward to your thoughts and help, if you've played this piece or can play this piece.

Thanks!
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caioramos
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 02:06:54 AM »

I replied on your blog, but I'm gonna copy/paste my post here just in case =)

Hello Choo!

I just started learning this piece about.. 2 months ago If I remember correctly, maybe a little less. And just now I got able to play the entire thing up to speed, I plan on recording it soon too, but I still make some mistakes, its difficult to get a clean play through because my arms get quite fatigued, I still don't have a lot of stamina cause I started playing piano not long ago, and this is quite a demanding piece. Also I play on a digital piano aswell, and when I get to play at the conservatory on a real piano, its always difficult to adapt cause of the heavier keys.

For me, the harder passage of this entire piece is bar number 8. Maybe its just me, but I still struggle to play it correctly up to speed. Also bars 14 and 16 are hard to play correctly.

I think 4-6 months is a good amount of time to get this mastered. You can play it on a technical level before, but getting a good interpretation paying attention to every detail and dynamics is going to consume more time.

I really enjoy your blog and I plan on checking it regularly to see your progress =)

Cheers
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 03:51:48 AM »

Thanks for visiting my blog and it's wonderful that you've managed to learn the whole piece in two months or less. That is encouraging for me. I also feel very fatigued practicing this piece and I've only completed one page of it! And I also use a digital piano. I suppose you will need to practice on the Conservatory's piano in order to get used to the heavier touch. It's always a problem for those of us with digitals. Someday I hope to have an acoustic baby grand.

Did you learn the poly rhythm using the TRLRLR pattern or did you simply fit the 4 notes into the 3 notes of the LH by practicing hands separately at first? I'm having trouble with bars 11-16.
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caioramos
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 04:01:14 PM »

Hi Choo!

I learned the poly rhythm doing exactly the same you did. I would get a single bar, and break it down in 4 separated parts of 4-3 notes, and focused on the notes that falls together, the rest just falls in naturally as you may have noticed. Some parts are easier to do this, some you will notice are harder like bars 7 and 8, and the chromatic runs (bars 33 and 34). Also, it was painful for me to get all these 4-3 small figures played together at bars 7-8. It took me I think a whole week to get it going without stopping.

For me bar 11 was not a problem, but bar 12-13 was. But it was a right hand problem, not poly rhythm. So I just practiced a lot the right hand alone. The same for bars 14-15-16. You better practice them in advance separately them join with the Left Hand.


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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 03:11:04 AM »

Thank you for your suggestions and tips. You're definitely correct about those difficult bars. I'm struggling to get by bars 12-16. I can get the groups of 4 and 3 but when it comes to putting together the whole bar of four 4 to 3s, that's another story. So I'm playing everything slowly now, including the first page. I think I went too fast and the notes that were supposed to be played together, were not. So have to begin again. I hope you will continue to follow my blog and I appreciate you taking the time to watch and respond with tips. Thank you.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 01:34:37 AM »

Guess what? After using the TRLRLR pattern for bars 11 - 16 for a couple of days, I guess my fingers got used to the shape of the phrases and I was able to switch to fitting the 4 notes in the RH to the 3 in the LH without a marked pause between beats so I'm just working on connecting those 6 bars together. Also reworking the first page, slower, to make sure all the notes that are supposed to be played together, actually are. I'm having the same problems with the bars you mentioned so slowing down and trying to keep the notes under control and prevent my fingers from running away with everything!
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 05:48:47 AM »

Hello everyone:

I've made a bit of progress and I've uploaded my 3rd videoclip. Here it is:

http://projectfantasie.blogspot.com/2011/12/chopin-fantasie-impromptu-in-c-minor.html

Please let me know what you think! Thanks very much for all your support and encouragement.

Choo
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 04:48:34 AM »

Kyle:

Do you get fatigued playing this piece? I'm fatigued after two pages! I wonder how anyone can play the whole piece without dropping over the keys from sheer exhaustion!

Choo
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caioramos
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 05:38:28 AM »

Hey Choo!

Yeah I get fatigued after playing it, but just my right arm. And the main reason are bars 14 to 24. The hand stretch you have to do to play it right and accurate gets it tensioned I feel.
But I guess when we develop a good natural larger stretch, we will be able to play it relaxed, but also, it helps if you can do the right impulse when playing it.


Kyle
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 01:48:56 AM »

I was looking over my music last night and happened to read the footnotes about bars 13-16 and 17-20. They mentioned that Klindworth, Jossefy and other editors added quarter note stems to the accented notes. Which edition are you using? Mine is Alfred (Palmer).

Where in Brazil do you live? I'm in Winnipeg or WINTER-peg as it is better known. It's really COLD here.
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birba
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2011, 05:07:51 PM »

I had a few ideas I wanted to share with you.  I think creating a blog about you learning this piece is a great idea!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5tdrryMFE
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caioramos
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »

I agree with what Birba says on his video, except that my teacher always told me that when you are still at the learning stage of a piece you should be always practicing slowly and heavy, you should not care about interpretation at this point cause what you are trying to achieve is getting all the notes ingrained into your fingers and your brain, its very mechanical, if you try to do little nuances and dynamics without having the notes really under your fingertips, your going to start making mistakes or you will not be able to make the dynamics right at all. So, after you can play the whole piece, or a whole section of a piece on a technical level, up to speed, them you go back and start the "Details phase" where you get the dynamics, the articulations and all that into your playing, as well as pedaling, this is where you get the sheet music and start reading paying attention to what you missed the first time. After that you go to the final phase that its interpretation phase, where, knowing the limits you cannot cross on the piece, you find your own way of playing it.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2011, 03:01:40 AM »

Birba:

Thank you so much for following my blog and my progress with this piece. Thank you also for taking the time to do a video to show me how I should approach practicing/ playing this piece. I learned a lot from watching you describe the hand motions and finger actions that would allow me to relax my wrist in order to play this piece with the fluidity it requires.

I notice that the videoclip is only available to be watched by those who have a link to it. Do you mind if I post it on my blog? I would like it to be posted because lots of people are watching my blog and I know some of them are learning this piece as well.

Once again, thank you so much for helping me with this piece. I'll work on it, as you have suggested.

Choo
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 03:04:30 AM »

I agree with what Birba says on his video, except that my teacher always told me that when you are still at the learning stage of a piece you should be always practicing slowly and heavy, you should not care about interpretation at this point cause what you are trying to achieve is getting all the notes ingrained into your fingers and your brain, its very mechanical, if you try to do little nuances and dynamics without having the notes really under your fingertips, your going to start making mistakes or you will not be able to make the dynamics right at all. So, after you can play the whole piece, or a whole section of a piece on a technical level, up to speed, them you go back and start the "Details phase" where you get the dynamics, the articulations and all that into your playing, as well as pedaling, this is where you get the sheet music and start reading paying attention to what you missed the first time. After that you go to the final phase that its interpretation phase, where, knowing the limits you cannot cross on the piece, you find your own way of playing it.

I understand what you're saying, Kyle, but I think what Birba is trying to get me to do is also important as there's plenty of tension in my playing at this time. The piece sounds so choppy when it should be fluid and soaring to the heavens.  I've worked at it slowly so now I should work at the finer details, the touch, the fluidity, etc. I'm excited to try Birba's method.
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birba
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 07:16:34 AM »

I think it's very dangerous to separate the technique from the musical aspect of a piece.  I agree you do have to know exactly the succession of notes on a written page, work out those uncomfortable hand positions, thumbs turning under, etc, etc,  But I think once you have gotten the basic ground, it's useless to work it up to speed in a way that you will never be playing.  Why learn to play the piece at quarter note = 132 or whatever, martellando each note at the same sound and force if this is not the way you eventually want to play it?  After you've learned it, let's say, at quarter note = 60, you should begin IMMEDIATELY to incorporate tone production  into the phrasing.   You can't expect the fingers to respond to your wishes when the piece is already learned up to speed.  At least, I can't! 
What I did in the video was just a candid improvised consideration of what Choo choo did.  I was basically talking to myself trying to get MY ideas in order.  This is how I would learn the piece.  I'm not reccomending my way of playing to anyone.  BUT, the way of arriving at your own personal interpretation.  It has to be done at an early stage in your learning of the piece.  In fact, I might reccomend that you let the fantasie impromptu rest a while and work on something else.  That way, when you come back to it - give it at least a month - you begin slow work all over, but not uniform martellando of the notes.  Rather with the musical and tone production intentions.
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caioramos
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 05:15:16 PM »

Neither I was recommending the way I learn a piece. I was just pointing out what I've been told by my teacher, and in fact, neither I do it exactly the way she tells me. I think everyone get to make they're own way of learning in the end, just you know what works best for yourself. I think I am too anxious so that's why I have often to go back and play slow again some parts cause I didn't achieve a high enough accuracy, I don't know maybe if I took more time to play slow in the beginning I wouldn't make some mistakes, but that's just me.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 11:53:21 PM »

I think it's very dangerous to separate the technique from the musical aspect of a piece.  I agree you do have to know exactly the succession of notes on a written page, work out those uncomfortable hand positions, thumbs turning under, etc, etc,  But I think once you have gotten the basic ground, it's useless to work it up to speed in a way that you will never be playing.  Why learn to play the piece at quarter note = 132 or whatever, martellando each note at the same sound and force if this is not the way you eventually want to play it?  After you've learned it, let's say, at quarter note = 60, you should begin IMMEDIATELY to incorporate tone production  into the phrasing.   You can't expect the fingers to respond to your wishes when the piece is already learned up to speed.  At least, I can't! 
What I did in the video was just a candid improvised consideration of what Choo choo did.  I was basically talking to myself trying to get MY ideas in order.  This is how I would learn the piece.  I'm not reccomending my way of playing to anyone.  BUT, the way of arriving at your own personal interpretation.  It has to be done at an early stage in your learning of the piece.  In fact, I might reccomend that you let the fantasie impromptu rest a while and work on something else.  That way, when you come back to it - give it at least a month - you begin slow work all over, but not uniform martellando of the notes.  Rather with the musical and tone production intentions.

I agree with you, Birba. If I keep practicing this martellando style till I complete the allegro agitato first section, by that time, my hands will be so used to hammering out the notes that I may not be able to play the piece as it should be played. I like your style very much and enjoyed your video immensely. I thank you for taking the time to watch my videos, follow my blog and offer very good suggestions to improve my performance. As for taking a month off, I don't think I'll do that yet. I only began practicing this piece two weeks ago and I am rolling along so I don't want to stop the momentum yet. I'll keep working on it and be back with another video when I have some improvement to show. Thanks once again.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 11:57:15 PM »

Neither I was recommending the way I learn a piece. I was just pointing out what I've been told by my teacher, and in fact, neither I do it exactly the way she tells me. I think everyone get to make they're own way of learning in the end, just you know what works best for yourself. I think I am too anxious so that's why I have often to go back and play slow again some parts cause I didn't achieve a high enough accuracy, I don't know maybe if I took more time to play slow in the beginning I wouldn't make some mistakes, but that's just me.

Kyle: I think both methods are good. Start slow and really get to know the notes, R/L coordination, etc. But once you can play at a fair tempo, it's a good idea to practice the piece the way it should be played. Of course, that's if you know how it's supposed to be played. I didn't, until Birba showed me. I had absolutely no technique. I was just trying to fit the 4 notes into the 3 notes and make sure that the notes that were supposed to be played hands together, were in fact doing that. But I think I've got those quite well now, except for my hammering touch  and other details. Of course, I'm still working on bars 17 up, trying to fit them together.
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benechan
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2011, 02:32:43 PM »

You may find this useful - How to play Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu C# Minor: analysis, tips, masterclasses Opus 66 from the piano sage blog, it summarises some of the masterclasses from the great pianist Cyprien Katsaris, for instance.
http://pianosage.blogspot.com/2011/08/how-to-play-chopins-fantasie-impromptu.html
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 01:35:57 AM »

Thank you! I'll check it out now.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 02:42:58 AM »

Benechan: It's an awesome website. Paul Barton was incredible, especially for me, as I'm just starting to learn this piece. Katsaris's Masterclass was so informative. I'll be returning time and again. Thank you!
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 01:24:13 AM »

I just began working on the middle section (Moderato Cantabile) while I'm working on thebeginning. I have a question for bars 49, 53 and 65 . Are those 4 little notes (C, Db, Eb, Db) that appear before F played before the beat (after the Ab of the LH) or played with the Db and Ab of the LH (2 RH notes to each LH note)? And what do you call these 4 little notes? Are they grace notes?

I see a similar pattern in bar 57, but there, the 4 notes are 32nd notes and played with the LH notes.

Thanks.
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caioramos
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 02:57:35 AM »

I just began working on the middle section (Moderato Cantabile) while I'm working on thebeginning. I have a question for bars 49, 53 and 65 . Are those 4 little notes (C, Db, Eb, Db) that appear before F played before the beat (after the Ab of the LH) or played with the Db and Ab of the LH (2 RH notes to each LH note)? And what do you call these 4 little notes? Are they grace notes?

I see a similar pattern in bar 57, but there, the 4 notes are 32nd notes and played with the LH notes.

Thanks.

Hey Choo! how you doing? =)

Well to be honest about those bars you mentioned, I'm not complete sure about it, because I have seen people play the notes before it and then give it a very little pause to play those grace notes (they are kind of an apoggiatura, someone correct me if I'm wrong) so they will be played alone. But I have seen people play it a little slower (because if you pay close attention, they are marked as 32th notes) but people would play like 16ths for example inside the last notes on the left hand (Eb, C, Ab). Also if you watch the Cyprien Katsaris masterclass video, on that part he changes the tempo, so it makes me believe that those grace notes are even affected by your own interpretation later on, so you will play as you feel inside that 3rd beat in the bar.

I hope you can understand what I said, its quite confusing  Tongue


Also, I think I'm inspired by you so I will be making a video blog of my next piece!
well I don't know how to do a blog, so maybe I'll just create a topic here on pianostreet and have videos posted!


Best wishes!
Caio
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 05:22:34 AM »

Good to hear from you again, Kyle. Yup, I'm confused! I also watched Paul Barton (have you seen his video on The Piano Sage?). I listened to that part only heaven knows how many times and I think he played them with the two last notes of the LH. But I guess I'm confused because there are several of those, some of them look like little grace notes, and a couple aren't. They're just regular 32nd notes. I'll have to re-watch the Katsaris videos too. I watched it but couldn't figure out where they were at since I hadn't begun work on it yet and even now, I'm still confused about where they're at.

So how do you play them?

I'm looking forward to your blog or post for the piece you decide to do. You are very good at posting on my blog so you should be able to start one!  :-)

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caioramos
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 05:42:57 AM »

I just quick played the passage. Its actually very simple Choo. You play 2 grace notes for the second note of the 3rd beat, and the remaining 2 for the last one

Ow and check out my topic! =D
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=44234.0
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birba
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 05:57:50 AM »

To me, this seems like a big "to-do" about nothing!  They're embellishments that are played before the beat.   They embellish the melody.  Practise without them for a while, and then put them in.  They shouldn't really stop the flow of the music, though you can slow down slightly, I suppose.
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caioramos
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 06:02:06 AM »

Birba is better with words than me haha, I was trying to say something like that. It shouldnt stop the flow of music, just put them in before the next beat
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 06:34:14 PM »

Yes, Birba gets his point across very well. Okay, so now I know it's much ado about nothing. Ha ha ha!! ROFL!!  I needed a good laugh!
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caioramos
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 01:56:19 AM »

Hey Choo, there is the link to my topic! =)

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=44234.0
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2011, 02:11:35 AM »

Good job, Kyle! I enjoyed your videoclip very much. I'll be following your progress, which I have a feeling will be a lot better than mine.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2011, 02:55:41 PM »

I just posted my 4th videoclip of my progress to my blog. Please take a look at it:

http://www.projectfantasie.blogspot.com

I appreciate all your comments, suggestions, tips. Thank you!
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caioramos
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2011, 02:34:00 AM »

Just left a comment at your blog Choo =)
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2011, 03:24:40 AM »

Thanks for the comments on the blog, Kyle. That was the longest comment you've ever posted anywhere!

I appreciate your comments for this new videoclip. I'm not sure if my RH is running away with it again and leaving my LH behind. I'll have to listen again. On my piano, I can record my practice so I'll do it tonight and listen. I'll record the other parts, too. Usually that's the best recorder as it doesn't pick up sounds from the rest of the house. Thanks for listening to my recording and letting me know about the LH being too loud. I'll have to re-listen again. That's an interesting observation on your part. As for smashing the grace notes, well, you know me. I have a rather heavy touch! That's why I posted the "Leggiero" sign on the piano! But I guess I'm still heavy handed. But I'll work on it. The middle section needs a lot of work, I know.

How's your Revolutionary Etude coming along?
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caioramos
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2011, 03:45:19 AM »

My etude, I'm finishing memorizing the 2nd page, then there is a lot of repetition at the 3rd page, so I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel already. But it's just memorizing, for the real playing, I have a first part like you that is coming along pretty well, but the rest I still have to work slowly a lot more, I don't know how long it will take me to finish this piece at a reasonable level at least, maybe 1 month, or maybe 2, I don't know, but I'm taking my time.

In fact I should be playing a lot slower than I am, I have this issue, I'm very anxious, so before I know it, I'm speeding up. And that's a bad habit I know.. I'll probably have a new video by sometime next week!
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birba
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2011, 07:10:34 AM »

The first part is much better now!  I think if you start the left hand a little faster and keep the r.h. at the speed you've got it, you will have your speed.  You started at a slower tempo and then when the r.h. entered it picked up notably.  Keep your right hand in your mind as you play the opening g-sharp and count EXACTLY in your head as you sing to your self the opening 16th notes.  There's no hold over the g-sharp.  It's exactly 2 bars, I believe.  Then start the left hand in that very same beat.
As far as the next passage goes, I'll send you a mini-video today.  You're tightening up that right hand.  That will never do!!!   Angry
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2011, 04:50:38 PM »

My etude, I'm finishing memorizing the 2nd page, then there is a lot of repetition at the 3rd page, so I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel already. But it's just memorizing, for the real playing, I have a first part like you that is coming along pretty well, but the rest I still have to work slowly a lot more, I don't know how long it will take me to finish this piece at a reasonable level at least, maybe 1 month, or maybe 2, I don't know, but I'm taking my time.

In fact I should be playing a lot slower than I am, I have this issue, I'm very anxious, so before I know it, I'm speeding up. And that's a bad habit I know.. I'll probably have a new video by sometime next week!

You're memorizing the 2nd page already? I must seem slow to you. I've only got the first page memorized. I guess I could probably play most of the 2nd page memorized but I'm not comfortable yet. Perhaps you should work on your beginning hands separately, then hands together for maybe the first 8 bars. You know, play them continuously. I look forward to your next video.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »

Thanks, Birba, for your comments and suggestions. I don't understand what you mean by this:

"Keep your right hand in your mind as you play the opening g-sharp and count EXACTLY in your head as you sing to your self the opening 16th notes.  There's no hold over the g-sharp.  It's exactly 2 bars, I believe.  Then start the left hand in that very same beat."

If you haven't made the mini video yet, can you please explain this on it? How am I supposed to count EXACTLY in my head? What do you mean when you say, "there's no hold over the g sharp?"

Also, on the subject of counting, I realize this piece was composed in 2/2 time. Would it be okay for me to count 4 beats to the measure instead of 2? It's easier. What difference would it make, anyway?

I look forward to your video very much! Thanks so much once again.
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birba
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2011, 08:46:36 PM »

You began the impromptu with 3 different tempi:  The g# (two measures - 2 whole notes),  the two measures of the l.h. solo, and finally the beginning of the running 16th notes.  The moment you play the g#, you should be in the tempo of the entire impromptu.  How do you do this?  By singing in your mind the beginning of the running 16th notes as you play those first four bars.  The finished impromptu is most definitely in "2".  And I think at your stage it would even be easier!
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2011, 09:15:20 PM »

I've got it! I also used the metronome for the first four bars while I was singing the RH melody for the first two bars to be sure I had the exact count.  I can do it now without the metronome. I found out that my tempo is 60 beats to the half note.

Thanks for explaining and pointing it out to me. I'm working on losing the tension.
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caioramos
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 11:54:11 PM »

I play about 75 for half-note, but its marked 84 at the sheet music, although that is just a recommended speed. Yundi Li plays about 90-95, that's fast!
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2011, 04:37:03 AM »

Mine is so SLOW!! I MUST hear you play. How do you control the notes when going so fast? When are you going to post your Fantasie on YouTube? I checked out your YouTube Channel last week and you hadn't uploaded anything. Of course, now you have the Etude on it.

I think I finally got the off beat part in Fantasie! FINALLY! All that work following Paul Barton's method did pay off - I think/ hope.

Having trouble with bars 11 -12. When I hear the pros play it, it sounds like a rushing waterfall. I can't figure out how to play it to sound like that. Do you know? How do you do it?
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2011, 05:27:34 AM »

I play about 75 for half-note, but its marked 84 at the sheet music, although that is just a recommended speed. Yundi Li plays about 90-95, that's fast!

My sheet music has the recommended speed at 66 - 72. Much slower than yours and definitely much slower than Yundi Li's. I like watching him play, BTW.
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ajspiano
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« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »

Having watched your latest vid briefly..

Bar 14. (and all the that are the same)

LH Fingering - 521212 521214

Prevents over stretching the fingers and having to turn your wrist to get your thumb up to the G#..

Up to you though obviously.
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candlelightpiano
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« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2011, 04:24:02 PM »

Having watched your latest vid briefly..

Bar 14. (and all the that are the same)

LH Fingering - 521212 521214

Prevents over stretching the fingers and having to turn your wrist to get your thumb up to the G#..

Up to you though obviously.

With the LH Fingering - 521212 521214 - wouldn't you have to play with your 2nd finger over the thumb?
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birba
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« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2011, 07:41:15 PM »

Nothing earth-shattering, but I hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5_ia0eQeQo
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ajspiano
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« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 08:45:14 PM »

With the LH Fingering - 521212 521214 - wouldn't you have to play with your 2nd finger over the thumb?

Yes.

3 over would probably also work but I prefer 2.

I don't really have a problem with the way you are doing it, it's how I first learnt it. I changed it because I found that the thumb reaching up to the G# was harder at speed an caused a lot of strain to the right side of my left wrist. It was less noticeable in the fantasie because it's really only that bar... In étude op 10 no 9 though it's twice every bar and that hurt a bit. Have to learn to rotate over instead of stretching/reaching.

Like i said though, up to you. If your comfortable and can play at speed I would just stick with what you've got for now. I think its likely depentant on hand size..  larger hands will have a much easier time getting their thumb up to the G#. Smaller hands will finder this very difficult.
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ajspiano
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« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2011, 09:05:04 PM »

In order to make it work you have to rotate toward your thumb to get the 2nd finger over to the g#- otherwise you'll just turn your wrist the other way creating a different problem.

The other solution is to bring your hand toward the fall board, deep into the black keys as you play the B,E,G#. this would allow your thumb to play the G# without turning your wrist. I found this less comfortable coming back to the next bar though..
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ajspiano
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« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2011, 10:50:10 PM »

Sorry for the excessive posts, for some reason my phone is against letting me edit posts.

I wanted to say also that I watched birba's videos thismorning and that in the second one where he talks about keeping your RH hand relaxed and the 'oscillation of the wrist' (to use his words in the vid), you can see that he entire entire forearm rotates toward the thumb to hit those accents..

this is exactly what I meant by rotating your LH toward the thumb (you can do this without accenting) to get your 2nd finger over..  Its a really important concept that applies to all your playing not just this passage that birba is showing you. I'm reluctant to try and describe it in words because its easy to misinterpret. - so kudos for birba being able to make the video giving a demo.

Also, @birba, was curious about the section where you suggest finger driven staccato.. the performance from candlelight is fairly fingery, and every note is individual rather than in phrases and flowing..  my immediate reaction was that this finger driven practice may reinforce that individual note type playing..  do you feel that it teaches the student to move the hand into the different positions?  I see you explained the different hand positions..  its certainly awkward to try and play a finger driven staccato note if you hand isnt balanced over the note you intend to play.

Also big + for what birba says about practicing to fall back onto the thumb in the run up to the high B after the opening RH phrase.
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caioramos
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« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2011, 11:49:12 PM »

I completely agree with ajs. I will also try to use his advices on my playing as well!
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