Fantasie Impromptu Project

[caioramos]

Yeah the Etude op10 no2 is a total beast, It's fun though, I would like to play it one day, but I guess I'm quite far away from it at this point.

[caioramos]

And there we go! 3000 views!!! 

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  OMG!! Your sunburn sounds terrible! Didn't you apply a sunblock? I was wondering where you'd gone to. So quiet. It IS good to have you back!  I had worked on the Flight of the Bumblebee a few months ago. Didn't quite get it to sound like a bumblebee!!!

KYLE: 3,000 views!! Jeez!! Who are the people who are watching this thread other than the few of us here: you, me, AJ, Dire Tonic, Birba, Margherita. How did it get to 3,000 views with just us 6 people? Well, I certainly hope I will have completed this piece before 100,000 views!! Otherwise, I'd be the laughing stock of this forum!! They'll be going like, " There's that girl who wanted to learn FI. There's been 100,000 views and counting and she still hasn't completed it! Will it take a million views before she completes it??" ROFL!!!!  My face would turn beet red!! I'd have to hide in the Australian sand!!!!

[caioramos]

LOL Choo, your too funny!

[candlelightpiano]

Oh, I don't want to be a laughing stock!! Did you get your cellphone? What type? How much did it cost you?

I forgot to add that unhollee does visit every now and then, but that makes 7 people. How did we get to 3,000 views?? This is unreal. I'd better finish FI quickly to prevent becoming a laughing stock! Got to practice like a demon, which is what I've been doing lately!

[ajspiano]

I think there is a fair few quiet observers to this thread. Everytime I come on here there is around 20 users signed in to piano street, but 200+ guest users viewing the forums so who knows how many people have a secret Fantasie Impromptu fetish thing going on..

My sunburn could be worse - though my face, neck, shoulders, arms and legs are all fairly red ..I've had worse as a kid though. I didnt wear any sunscreen because I was only expecting to be out in the sun for a short time. That obviously didn't happen...

Kyle: I read somewhere a little while ago that chopin's intention was for students to learn etudes 1, 2, and 3 before tackling 4. Reason being that 1, 2 and 3 practice different concepts in isolation that are all used in No. 4. - no idea how reliable my source is though

[candlelightpiano]

secret Fantasie Impromptu fetish thing going on..

AJ: You say the funniest thing!!  ROFL!! I don't think I'll be able to stop laughing for a long time!!

[caioramos]

Kyle: I read somewhere a little while ago that chopin's intention was for students to learn etudes 1, 2, and 3 before tackling 4. Reason being that 1, 2 and 3 practice different concepts in isolation that are all used in No. 4. - no idea how reliable my source is though

Well it totally makes sense in a way. Op10 no4 involves wide arpeggios from no1 and crowded chromatics from 2. Not sure about no3.

But the problem as you probably know is that no2 and even no1 for some people, are quite more difficult then no4. Well, I don't think no1 is, but no2 surely is.

[ajspiano]

Well it totally makes sense in a way. Op10 no4 involves wide arpeggios from no1 and crowded chromatics from 2. Not sure about no3.

But the problem as you probably know is that no2 and even no1 for some people, are quite more difficult then no4. Well, I don't think no1 is, but no2 surely is.

Tried to play no 1 at full speed? hahah..  its harder than it first looks..  Strikes me as odd that you would think this too because, for example..  bar 11, is like the rolled chord of bar 55 in the rev, only this time you have to play it it repeated over the entire range of the key board.

Each to there own though..  we all have our own unique weaknesses.

I think No.1's difficulty shows itself in the difference between trying to play it in the 120-130 tempo range and the marked tempo of 176. You know horowitz didn't play it publicly because he felt it was too difficult?

Virtuoso pianist Vladimir Horowitz, who refused to perform this étude in public, said, "For me, the most difficult one of all (the études) is the C Major, the first one, Op. 10, No. 1."

^ the above quote is from wikipedia..  however it sites this - Dubal, David. Evenings with Horowitz. Amadeus Press, 2004

I guess it all depends what you are aiming for though..  I aspire to pollinis recordings in terms of an accurate and fluent performance - and his are more or less flawless on that front, whether you like his interpretation or not..

[caioramos]

I already had heard this story about Horowitz. I didn't believe the first time but it's a fact!

It makes me think how much piano playing evolved from that time. My teacher said in Curtis almost every 16 years old plays Rach piano concert no3. It's like if today technique is a given, you are just expected to don't have problems and only focus on musicality. Which is scary by the way!

I'm not saying Horowitz playing can be considered sloppy today, but I heard some people say things like that about Cortot. But I got that we have all our weaknesses. Maybe that was Horowitz one.

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[ajspiano]

I didnt mean to suggest that it must be hard because horowitz says so.. just that great pianists respect its difficulty.

Horowitz has some fairly unconventional movements in his technique, so perhaps this is why he found it difficult where as some other pianists may find it much easier. In the end its the pianists musicality/tone than wins out anyway, which is why horowitz is so well loved.

There are other examples of this too..  I'm unfamilar with much of cortots recordings, though I remember reading someones review that described pollinis etudes as "flawless, but flat and unsatisfying" while cortots were considered "flawed, but moving" by comparison..  all personal opinion of course.

Glad to see some more videos choo, will take a close look soon.

[caioramos]

Amazing choo

The octaves are coming along pretty well!!

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Kyle. I think this piece is coming together slowly but surely. I am getting a kick out of making these videos. I hope I'm not boring you guys but you must admit that it's nice to watch some videos in between discussion of Horowitz and what not! I enjoy those discussions so please continue. You two guys are great and I'm so glad you're back. This thread was becoming depressing with me alone most of the time.

[dire_tonic]

And another video ...hope you guys aren't sick of my videos but I'm going away in a few days and I must leave you with something to remember me by. 

Really good work Choo!

This section (13 etc) and the 'end' of the agitato (30 etc) are giving me a real headache.  I can play the other sections at a reasonable speed but these two areas are holding me back.

I meant to ask if you ever do any scale practise?  I had intended to, but I think the rewards are too slow to be realised so I haven't bothered.

Not sure if I'll get my video up before your vacation or if you'll be communicating prior to departure.  Just in case, Ill bid you bon voyage!

[candlelightpiano]

DIRE TONIC:  Thank you!  I haven't been practicing the entire piece, only bits and parts because I've been working on the evenness of the 16th notes in bars 7 - 8. I'm planning to re-work from the beginning all the 16th notes, to make them as even as Birba taught me to do. When I listen to the pros, their 16th notes are really even. So my tempo is probably a lot slower than yours for the whole piece. I'm not overly concerned with tempo at this time, but just focusing on getting the notes together, for example, from bars 30 - 40. Speeding up too soon will muddle them up so I practice slow, then faster but not at speed, and if I mess up, I go slow again.

The only scale I practice is a chromatic scale from middle D in contrary motion for two octaves. And I only began doing this a couple of days ago!! I know I should practice all my scales but I'm too lazy!

Are you doing Birba's octave exercises for the octave passages? I do it everyday, quite a bit of it, actually. I know there's still tension but it's not as bad now.

I have to pack but since I'm going only for one week, there's not much to do. Once I'm packed, I'm going to revise my middle section and hopefully, record it before I leave and post it here. I'll be on PianoStreet at least until midnight Tuesday, Canadian CST!!  I'm addicted to my piano and this forum!!   

[ajspiano]

The only scale I practice is a chromatic scale from middle D in contrary motion for two octaves. And I only began doing this a couple of days ago!! I know I should practice all my scales but I'm too lazy!

Did your fink book arrive ?

[candlelightpiano]

Did your fink book arrive ?

YES! I also ordered the DVD separately. I haven't read the book yet and I've only watched the beginning of the DVD where Dr Fink recommended that everyone practice that chromatic scale. Did you watch my Octave video? What do you think?

[ajspiano]

YES! I also ordered the DVD separately. I haven't read the book yet and I've only watched the beginning of the DVD where Dr Fink recommended that everyone practice that chromatic scale. Did you watch my Octave video? What do you think?

So you've also seen a bit of talk about pulling/pushing arm circles? I think you need to incorporate that idea into those bars.

I was hoping to do you a bit of a short video about that tomorrow evening, I think there's a few key points you might miss if you try to figure it out on your own.

The reason is that at the moment it looks like you get your arm/hand into a position for each group of 4 semiquavers. When I play it, there's a rough position for each block of 4 notes, but within that there is a feeling of a tiny circular motion created by the arm moving in/out and up/down. Beyond that each group of 4 has a slightly unique circle motion so its not that easy to figure out or explain.

I have a few practice ideas to help you find them though, will post soon.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ. I look forward to your practice ideas. You also mentioned some ideas about the middle section? I haven't got to the part where Fink talked about pulling/ pushing arm circles yet. I'll try and watch more of the DVD tonight.

[starstruck5]

Thanks, AJ. I look forward to your practice ideas. You also mentioned some ideas about the middle section? I haven't got to the part where Fink talked about pulling/ pushing arm circles yet. I'll try and watch more of the DVD tonight.

When you have absorbed Dr Finks teachings - please let us know if it is worth investing in! ??

I have followed this thread with interest - It is amazing how much has come from your passion for the Fantasy Impromtu!  It is a wonderful piece of music. I am sure you will master it!

[costicina]

Hi Starstruck5,

I'm trying to absorbe Fink's ideas, and I can assure you that they work. For example, along with the Rev I've picked up again the Etude op 25 n1 (Aeolian harp). I tackled it about an year ago, but left it unfinished because it sounded more like a hammer than like a harp.
I say that because the circlying movement required by this Etude, illustrated wonderfully by Fink  in his video, is exactly the same movement  of LH in the FI. When you have ingrained the supple-wrist, pronation-supination pattern, it does a world of difference!!!!
So give it a try!!!
Margherita

[caioramos]

Hi Starstruck5,

I'm trying to absorbe Fink's ideas, and I can assure you that they work. For example, along with the Rev I've picked up again the Etude op 25 n1 (Aeolian harp). I tackled it about an year ago, but left it unfinished because it sounded more like a hammer than like a harp.
I say that because the circlying movement required by this Etude, illustrated wonderfully by Fink  in his video, is exactly the same movement  of LH in the FI. When you have ingrained the supple-wrist, pronation-supination pattern, it does a world of difference!!!!
So give it a try!!!
Margherita

Hi Costicina! (should I call you Marguerita?)

Have you already finished your Rev? Did you try op10 no4 in the past?
Do you have videos?! I'm curious to see your playing and the fink movement too!  

Kyle

[candlelightpiano]

Kyle, Margherita & StarStuck5

Hi from Jamaica!!  Internet connection unreliable n slow here so don't no when i'll be online again but thx 2 all of you. Margherita plays well, better than me. StarStruck: thanks 4 yr confidence. I will complete this pc, quite sure of it. glad you're following this thread. do u play FI?  Kyle: nice to see u here. hope all is well in calgary. ok guys. got to go. no mouse makes typing difficult.

[caioramos]

Choo!! I'm surprised to see you here! so you have internet there? slow but better than nothing I guess! you can keep track of your topic once in a while until you come back!!

how was the flight? hope it was good!
I met Zoe today! she's all fun!!

Talk to you later!
Kyle

[caioramos]

Choo, when you come back your thread will have like 5000 views! You better finish this piece for all of us!!  

[candlelightpiano]

Yah Man! That means YES in Jamaican! I'd better finish this piece for all of you n the others who have been viewing. Flight was long, so long. Got up 3:30 AM. Arrived hotel 9:30 PM! Crazy! Nice weather. Humid, warm. Not impressed w/ hotel compared to Mexican ones. But it's fun 2 check out new country. Gld u n Zoe had fun. She's nice. You're making lots of friends there. good 4 u. talk later.

[costicina]

Hi Kyle!!
of course you can call me Margherita, or Marg, as you prefer!!!
I've never tried op 10 n 4. It's considered one of the most difficult Etude along with op 10 n 2. The only other Etude I've tried (I' pickin it up again) is op 25 n 1, Aeolian harp. I hope to post soon a video of me performing it. My next Etude (but I'm workinx excruciatingly slow, too, at Prokofiev Suggestion diabolique), will be 25/12, Ocean. Soo beautiful!!!
 
But what about your Rev? Don't give up, please: ups-and-downs are the rule for everybody struggling with this piece. At heart, it's not that difficult as it seems...(mmh, maybe I should delete this sentence,  after my videos )

It's great to hear from Choo, I already missed her!!

Ciao
Margherita

[caioramos]

So I will call you Marg!  

Noo no! I'm not giving up my Rev etude, in fact I practice it everyday a little, but I just started the op10 no4, and although it's really hard I feel I may be able to finish it, of course it will take quite long I guess! I pretty much memorized it, just 1 page left. Then I will just practice like a demon to get it to a playable level at a moderate tempo, and I guess I would be very happy at that point! But now looking back the Rev etude seemed really hard but in fact it's really easy compared to no4, it's like a grand canyon of difference!  

My rev etude I'm working now on stop making mistakes and stumbling, it will take time, but I'm getting more comfortable with it as I practice some sections. Probably if I just practiced it I would finish quicker but I couldn't help but start a new etude, so it will take longer, well I'm not in a hurry to finish either  
I just stopped posting on my thread because there's not much to post really, my first video I was not playing the piece at all, the second one I pretty much played it through making some mistakes and a stumble. Now the next I plan to post when I have it finished.

[costicina]

Kyle,  Choo: since you're in love with Chopin, I suggest you another book, very, very useful. Every piece of Chopin (with indication of its difficulty level) is discussed and explained, with great tips about how to practice them both from the technical and from the musical point of view:

Eleanor Bailie, Chopin: a grade practical guide, Kahn e Averill, London. I ordered it from Amazon, and it was really money well spent!!!!

Marg
 

[candlelightpiano]

kyle, marg:

nice to see u both posting here in my absence. well my physical body is away thousands of miles fm home but my virtual body is forever on pianostreet!!

marg: remind me about the bk when i return. definitely want 2 get it. i'll be so busy i may forget.

birba said my octaves are still muddled. need 2 work more w/ the exercises. i understand what he's saying. just need 2 implement when i get home. i was practicing like that, then i got lost again and went back 2 the old way. well after this break fm piano, my mind may be more straight!! fingers, too, will be more thawed out! ha ha ha! of course, they freeze as soon as i get out of the airport in winnipeg! only takes a few secs.

[caioramos]

AJ once sent me this, It's pretty useful too for the Chopin Etudes

https://www.scribd.com/doc/14182617/Cortot-Chopin-Etudes-Op10Students-Edition

[ajspiano]

Ah ha! I finally located it. I knew there was a bit in the taubman techniques that discussed this passage. It was on the 'grouping' DVD and only goes for a few seconds. Made a HUGE difference though, which was surprising since I didn't have any trouble with them in the first place. Just goes to show that you don't know what you don't know

Essentially almost all the groups of 4 semiquavers from bars 13 to when it goes back to the initial theme fit under the hand MUCH better when felt as off the beat. In other words, when you isolate it "c, c#, g#, g#(8ve)" is far far easier to play tension free than "G#, g#, c, c#" is...

Will make a video regarding this, and how to practice, and why it matters tonight. It will probably take a bit of practice to get it together but as a separate phase you should feel the difference instantly. I can't believe I forgot to talk about or work this out for you before, I used this idea long before I ever watched the taubman videos.

[starstruck5]

Hi Starstruck5,

I'm trying to absorbe Fink's ideas, and I can assure you that they work. For example, along with the Rev I've picked up again the Etude op 25 n1 (Aeolian harp). I tackled it about an year ago, but left it unfinished because it sounded more like a hammer than like a harp.
I say that because the circlying movement required by this Etude, illustrated wonderfully by Fink  in his video, is exactly the same movement  of LH in the FI. When you have ingrained the supple-wrist, pronation-supination pattern, it does a world of difference!!!!
So give it a try!!!
Margherita

Thanks so much for the recommendation -I will definitely check this out.

[costicina]

AJ, I'm not familiar with the Taubman technique. Where can I get the videos you are talking about?
Thank you
Marg

[ajspiano]

AJ, I'm dumb, I know         , but I don't understand what are you talking about...
I'm not familiar with the Taubman technique. A video would be great (of course, if and when you'll have the time and the will to make it!)

Thank you
Marg

Yes i didnt figure anyone would really understand from that and I will do a video very soon.

However, for you..

In the revolutionary, in bars 7 and 8. The 'on the beat' groupings show 2 notes going down, then you go up to the next 2 notes that go down..  such as on the first beat, C, B, G, F..  then the second beat, Eb, D, Eb D.. 

These are difficult to play. If instead you see them off the beat..  as in go from the quaver pulse before the start of bar 7, you end up with groups of 4 semi quavers that all travel down. firstly "Eb, D, C, B" then "G, F, E, D", then "Eb, D, C, B" and so on..  play it by thinking of it that way and you'll find it much easier. This is illustrated by the excerpt from sandor that you posted, its not just a taubman idea.

The same concept is at work in FI - and everything else you ever play. FI is a little bit more convoluted though since the groups are not just notes travelling in one direction.

Will post video soon.

AJ

[ajspiano]

AJ, I'm not familiar with the Taubman technique. Where can I get the videos you are talking about?
Thank you
Marg

The taubman techniques are epic. There is 20+ hours of video on technique discussed in its most raw and basic forms and with countless examples from the literature.

Just google the taubman techniques, or the "golandsky institute" if you want to take a look - they are big investment though comparitively to fink or sandor.. the full set is around $700 i think at the moment.

As with anything you need to make up your own mind on the content not just assume its right..

..if you agree with fink though I think you'll agree with the taubman ideas, i feel that they are just saying the same thing in a different way.. and in more detail. while fink gave me "do this movement here" taubman gave me the a lot of the "why" and how to figure them out on my own. Its a little bit like a rule set that gives you fundamental principals for healthy efficient movement, you can then experiment beyond them but with an understanding of how that effects you're body and the music that will come out of the instrument.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: Yeah Mon from Jamaica! I look forward to your video too though won't be able to watch till i return next week. thanks for making it for us, in advance.

[costicina]

Thanks, AJ.
In this very moment my financial situation is not too florid      ... but I thin I'll do this investment. I'm curious, and in my double role of selft-aught re-starter and teacher of my daughter, I feel sort of obliged to learn as much as possible about piano pedagogy, from every source available.

But please, don't stop posting your great tutorial video, we all are fond of them, and they are as useful as Fink's or Taumban's ones!!!!

Marg

[birba]

[costicina]

Wow Birba,
what a first class masterclass!!! Your video is absolutely stunning, inspiring, useful for us all...
THANK YOU maestro...
Marg

[candlelightpiano]

BIRBA:  THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!  Awesome video!  I'm in Jamaica so can't practice - though I can't wait to be able to practice (soon!) - but I enjoyed it so much!!  I'll watch many times here and work on it when I return. Please do not delete this video or the one for the middle section. I have a lot of work to do to improve them. I'll work at it from the beginning, as you have suggested. Thanks so much once again!!

[birba]

 

[unholeee]

what video cameras are you all using? i noticea lot on digitals besides margh - do they sound decent on acoustic? it looks like they are unbeatable for analyzing your own technique / and being able to listen to the sound being made.

[birba]

Mine's a canon "legria HF M300" It is a neat camera.  I had never had one before and I asked my cousin to bring what he thought was the best around.  Small, compact, and even an imbecile like me can operate it.

[candlelightpiano]

Sorry.

[candlelightpiano]

Mine's a canon "legria HF M300" It is a neat camera.  I had never had one before and I asked my cousin to bring what he thought was the best around.  Small, compact, and even an imbecile like me can operate it.

You're much too hard on yourself. No one plays the piano like you do. We are very lucky to have you here and I am very grateful for your tutoring. You're also a man of many talents.

Does your Canon come with the remote shutter?

[birba]

What's that?  Is that the little gyzmo you use like a remote channel control?  To start and stop videoing? If so, yes!

[candlelightpiano]

Yes, that's what I meant.  That's a neat gadget but you don't seem to be using it now.

Also, I know it sounds like a dumb question but what do you mean when you talk about a "musical intention"?

And when you were demonstrating the middle section, you played it with tenderness even when you were busy explaining to me this and that. How did you do that?

Thanks!