Fantasie Impromptu Project

[birba]

I know.  It's very handy and I'm praying that I left that thing at home and that I haven't lost it here.
Musical intention.  What you want to "say" with the music.  A musical phrase should mean (intend) something.  Not that it has to be translatable into a spoken language, but it can't just be a series of notes.  It has a meaning.  For example, the octave section coming down before the middle part - it's not static.  It's moving.  It's going down.  I have to feel it's going down and it hits the bottom.  Get it?
You'll be able to do a lot of things when you get to be my age.  50 or thereabouts...

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[ajspiano]

This is some thoughts about bar 13-24, and how to get to playing without any negative tension, so that we can play with control and expression.

I talk about some of the ideas found in Dr. Chang's fundamentals of piano practice, chord attacks and paralell sets. Atleast as I understand them, and they have worked for me by employing them in this fashion.

I'm really assuming that you can control your arm as a free falling weight over the keys. I don't think that will be a huge problem for you but maybe there will be some confusion..  as always feel free to shoot questions at me.

I'm a little concerned that you're getting overloaded with advice here, so just take from it what you can, if there is anything..

AJ

[costicina]

Great tutorial, AJ, full of precious insights!!!!
Thank so much, you are doing a great service to all of us  
Marg

[candlelightpiano]

Excellent Video, AJ!!  I'm in Jamaica so can't practice but I look forward to putting your suggestions into play when I return. I especially enjoyed you showing us the wrist rotation, wrist height and forearm action and the rotation of the hand toward the thumb and pinky when doing the accents. I'll watch your video many times here to get a clearer picture of your explanation. THANK YOU for taking the time to put this together for us. I'm sure it will help me improve this passage, which is still muddled because of the tension between the octaves.

[candlelightpiano]

Birba posted a video for Bars 30 - 40:

[ajspiano]

Also should answer the video camera question... I just use my iPhone.

[dire_tonic]

Birba and AJ, thank you both for your continued generosity in answering questions and posting your instructive videos to Choo’s FI thread – so many of us will benefit from them.

A few more participants and you’ll be running a school!

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  For all we know, there are a few more participants than those of us who have revealed ourselves!! Kyle keeps tab on the page views and there's been more than 3,000 views so far. So there may be many silent participants that we don't know about so Birba and AJ, you may already be running a school and just don't know it!!  

UNHOLLEE:  I use the video recorder of my Panasonic Lumix camera.

AJ:  What is the difference between slow practice and practice in slow motion? I hear you and Birba talking about that. Also, AJ, when you do the rubato, is it on the first note of the 4 note group or on the first 3 notes of the group?

[ajspiano]

AJ:  What is the difference between slow practice and practice in slow motion? I hear you and Birba talking about that. Also, AJ, when you do the rubato, is it on the first note of the 4 note group or on the first 3 notes of the group?

Slow practice vs Slow motion practice - a rough simplified description.
Your body is capable of an enormous amount of variation in movement, but for the sake of explaining this lets just say you can only move in 2 different ways

Movement A - works well at slow speed, however breaks down at high speed because it builds enormous tension. Kind of like a car trying to go 100mph in 1st gear. It doesnt work.

Movement B - works well at high speed as it does not build tension, to use the car metaphor, you are now in top gear and capable of going fast without wasting energy on unnecessary revs of the engine.

Take a high speed passage of piano music, if you do not know what the high speed motion is or how to execute it you will start by practicing slowly and you will almost always use a slow speed motion. Then as you build speed you will continue to use a slow speed motion and tension will build up in your body as you struggle to move faster in the wrong gear.

Instead, you need to identify the high speed motion first, this is the purpose of the exercises presented in my video, they teach your brain/body how to move in a way that will work at high speed. Once you have figured out how to move fast without tension you have to refine it, iron out the flaws and get everything evened out. Thus, you practice "in slow motion" - you play the piece exactly as you would at full speed but all the movements have been slowed down. This is very different to just playing the piece slowly using a movement that will not work at high speed.

On the rubato
I suspect that I play a little bit held back over the first 2-3 notes.. maybe even a touch longer. Doing this should help you feel the group in the right order, once you can feel the group in the right order and the playing is free of any bad tension then its likely not necessary to do this unless you like the sound of it as a musical idea. I can certainly play it tension free without the rubato..  but I like the sound of it that way, the fact that it helps a bit technically is a bonus i guess.

-----------------

Each of these ideas can be applied to each successive group of notes in these bars, the movements are not all the same, though they are similar. You will need to get a feel for each of them. Though once you find the first one or two it should become much easier to find the other ones.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand slow motion practice now. I may have more questions as I keep watching your video.

AJ and BIRBA: ZoeCalgary, who is a member of Piano World forum, wanted me to tell both of you that she appreciates your videos very much.

[birba]

Sorry for the excessive posts, for some reason my phone is against letting me edit posts.

I wanted to say also that I watched birba's videos thismorning and that in the second one where he talks about keeping your RH hand relaxed and the 'oscillation of the wrist' (to use his words in the vid), you can see that he entire entire forearm rotates toward the thumb to hit those accents..

this is exactly what I meant by rotating your LH toward the thumb (you can do this without accenting) to get your 2nd finger over..  Its a really important concept that applies to all your playing not just this passage that birba is showing you. I'm reluctant to try and describe it in words because its easy to misinterpret. - so kudos for birba being able to make the video giving a demo.

Also, @birba, was curious about the section where you suggest finger driven staccato.. the performance from candlelight is fairly fingery, and every note is individual rather than in phrases and flowing..  my immediate reaction was that this finger driven practice may reinforce that individual note type playing..  do you feel that it teaches the student to move the hand into the different positions?  I see you explained the different hand positions..  its certainly awkward to try and play a finger driven staccato note if you hand isnt balanced over the note you intend to play.

Also big + for what birba says about practicing to fall back onto the thumb in the run up to the high B after the opening RH phrase.

You're right.  I, too, found I was emphasizing too much the finger activity in Choo's FI.  I was curious to see if this method of articulation could be explained over the internet.  But it had an adverse effect, and I let it go.  She lost the context of the phrasing and it became static.  That's why I talked about musical direction and other stuff.

[dire_tonic]

As promised to Choo, a first video of the fruit of my efforts so far.

I'm still trying to master the 'notes' hence this unsubtle blast of the first 34 bars.  The usual suspects are in evidence; bars 7/8; the octavy section with uncomfortable transitions and which has me almost seized up by 21 or 22;fingering not fully decided for 30/31/32.

Even the most brutal criticisms are welcome.

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  WOW!!  That was pretty darned good!!!!  I know I've never played it as well and I hope to play as well or even half as well when I get home. I feel embarrassed about my lack of progress compared to you. sigh.

   

[dire_tonic]

DT:  WOW!!  That was pretty darned good!!!!  I know I've never played it as well and I hope to play as well or even half as well when I get home. I feel embarrassed about my lack of progress compared to you. sigh.

Choo, it's kind of you to complement me but I could never have made any headway with this piece as you have after only a couple of years of piano!  You've absolutely no reason to feel any embarrassment whatsoever.

Also, I'm straining under diminishing returns, I don't believe I'm playing this any better than a couple of weeks ago so any further improvements will be hard-won.

Keep up the work on this piece, never let it go and you'll be putting my efforts to shame, I know it.

[candlelightpiano]

DT: I don't plan to let it go. I just have so many problems compared to you. You said you used to play in wine bars: I can see that in the way you play this piece, like a pro, I mean, and I mean that as a compliment.  And it's been so long since I played bars 7 - 8 HT that I may have lots of problems putting it together now. I think it's been at least a few weeks since I played those two bars HT. You're doing wonderfully well. I watched your video 4 times!! It was fun! Thanks for posting. I enjoyed it very much. You're pretty awesome and you're making this thread REALLY exciting!

[dire_tonic]

DT: I don't plan to let it go. I just have so many problems compared to you. Your hands looked great. I didn't see any tension whatsoever. You said you used to play in wine bars: I can see that in the way you play this piece. I mean that as a compliment. And it's been so long since I played bars 7 - 8 hands together that I may have lots of problems putting it together now. I think it's been at least a few weeks since I played those two bars HT. You're doing wonderfully well. I watched your video 4 times!! It was fun! It gives me an incentive to do better, not that I feel I'm in competition with you or anyone else. But I'd be happy to be able to play those first 34 bars as well as you do. Thanks for posting your video. I enjoyed it very much.

Wine bars, lol! yes it's true.  Fortunately my regular audience had usually imbibed a glass or 2 too many so they were never overly critical!

By the way, I'd lost count of the number of attempts I'd made to play this in preparing the video.  It's very rare I can do it without a significant number of blinding errors and even here there are so many rough edges and missed notes.

I'm quite certain Choo, if you maintain your dedication to this piece you'll win out and play it beautifully whereas I've probably given it my best here - dt

[birba]

Well, you certainly have the means to play this piece.  Your finger facility is enviable!  I can't get those bars at 29-30 without slowing down a bit!!!  You rattle them off like a machine gun!
With your technical means now, you should be able to get more out of it, musically.  It's a warhorse that everyone knows and we tend to sort of gloss over the musical aspect because we think we know it so well in our heads.  It's not GREAT music, maybe, but we have to pretend it is!  I would give it a much lighter touch, so as to be able to make bigger crescendos and diminuendos.  Also, a bit of rubato in the melodic "thumb section" might be in order.  I don't know, these are just a few thoughts passing through my head.  Take it for what it's worth...
At any rate, this initial work is bright and flashy, to say the least!

[snafu]

Hi -

I don't to hijack the chat, but there have been a couple of speculations about the number of readers of this thread. Just to let you know that there *are* anonymous readers out here, and we *do* think free videos from experts are the cat's pyjamas.

I restarted the piano 12m ago after a 15 year break.  I was only just post-grade 8 at the time (much further on at violin...neither turned into a career though).  For various reasons, I don't have a teacher...so, for me, this stuff is gold dust.

So, thanks AJ and Birba, this is what people like me depend on.  We're never going to grace the stage, but we get so much enjoyment out of playing.  And we're ambitious enough to not want to stand still: in a year's time, the music on my piano has to be a notch more difficult.  Your contributions are part of helping with that.

s.

[candlelightpiano]

SNAFU: Thanks for posting and giving me one very good reason why there are so many page views on this thread. Since I'm such a terrible student, the experts are putting out lots of videos for me.  I thank them most sincerely and I hope their efforts will not come to naught. But as long as I'm struggling with this piece, you can probably expert more videos from the pros.

DT: Birba is impressed with your performance! WOW! I was impressed before. I'm now doubly impressed!!

BIRBA: This IS great music, especially when you perform it.

[ajspiano]

@dt

To start with, an impressive performance. As birba said you have wonderful finger facility. Choo said it looks lik you have no tension but I think it looks like you feel a bit of a stuggle with the off beat accents in bars 17-24, and just the RH notes in general from bars 19 through 24.

That section up to bar 24 has a lot of distance between fingers 2 and 5. This is where it's really important to feel the group of 4 notes off beat as I was talking about in my video. Here you can probably even play your 5th finger staccato for practice to ensure that you get you whole hand back over to a comfortable spot for the 2nd finger.

Even in the final product it's likey ok to disconnect from the 5th finger as you move to the second. The pedal will make it legato and make it feel as if it's grouped on the beat.

[costicina]

Bravo Dt, an impressive performance...this thread is getting more and more thrilling  thanks to Choo (who has the merit to have strated it), to you, and your great staff of coachs and supporters.  I'll be almost sad    when you both will be able to play this piece flawlessy (it's going to happen soon, I'm sure).
But you can alway start a similar thread for another piece     

Marg

[candlelightpiano]

xx

[ajspiano]

Since I'm such a terrible student, the experts are putting out lots of videos for me.

Its because you are a great, motivated student actually.

[candlelightpiano]

Its because you are a great, motivated student actually.

Really? I'm touched. Thanks, AJ! You made my day. I'll work on what you suggested in the video upon my return Thursday.

[dire_tonic]

Birba &AJ, thanks both for your upbeat appraisals. 

Birba: To be honest I don’t feel I’ve yet reached a comfort zone technically – I’m just not consistent enough  - but I’ve been listening a lot so I’m mindful of the musical dimension in your illustrations and others’ performances and I’ll be focusing on that too, without a doubt…and a lighter touch to enable contrasts – absolutely!   But I’m down on this piano which is too loud for the small room it’s in so I keep the soft pedal permanently depressed using a chock of wood.  That leaves less available dynamic range but….excuses, excuses!!

AJ: yes, the accented octave section needs lots of work and tension is hard to combat.  In fact I do tend to throw out the pinkie with a stabbing motion which helps me to home the 2nd finger but there are other weird inhibiting things going in these bars; e.g. if I don’t actively concentrate on the D#/F# then by the time I get to bar 22 the two notes are often reversed!  The higher the tempo the more likely.

Marg – kind of you to say that.  You're right, Choo has a lot to answer for luring us into this musical web!  But I think we’ll all be here for some time getting this piece right, or at least until Birba and AJ lose patience and leave us all to drift in a rudderless ship.  Will you join us on FI?  The more the merrier!

[dire_tonic]

Its because you are a great, motivated student actually.

So true!

[ajspiano]

#things_choo_does_that_make_her_a_goodgreat_student

1. Sets challenging goals for herself, and maintains focus on them
2. Is excited about learning the piano
3. Practices consistently
4. Searches for answers on her own without the help of a teacher
5. Keeps an open mind to advice from all sources
6. Actively considers the validity of all advice presented
7. Makes her own decision about that validity, and its relevance to her own learning
8. Asks questions to clarify her understanding of any given point

..to name a few.

[candlelightpiano]

Oh, AJ, I'm not thaaaaaat good. Gee whiz! You're making me blush!  Thanks so much!!  You're a first rate teacher and friend.  

[candlelightpiano]

Wine bars, lol! yes it's true.  Fortunately my regular audience had usually imbibed a glass or 2 too many so they were never overly critical!

That's the best kind of audience!!    

[sueyin]

I'm one of the "invisible" followers that candlelightpiano mentioned and I've been following this thread since she began her blog.

Very impressive performance, Dire Tonic! How long have you been working on FI? You look like a seasoned pianist rather than a learner. How long have you been playing piano?

Candlelightpiano - your progress is actually impressive, considering that you've only been working on this piece for less than two months and you've only had two plus years of lessons. Remember that many people don't make it past the first 8 measures, me included. This is a difficult piece. I think, a Diploma Level piece, which is usually played by students who have had at least 8 years of lessons. You are very talented and Birba and AJ must have recognized your potential when they began coaching you. I also want to let them know that I appreciate their tireless dedication to help you achieve your goal and I have enjoyed their videos very much.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  I've been working on the octave passage as you suggested in your video, following your step by step method. By the time I got to the thumb accents, I had developed a very light, fluid touch for the 16th notes, which is what I've always wanted to develop. So it's working out quite well. Your "lean-in-lean-out" demo to add wt or reduce wt on the keys was great. Is that what you do whenever you want to play louder or softer instead of using your fingers? Anyway, I'll continue working on this HS, then HT, and record a video soon. Thanks for taking the time to do this for me. I learned a lot!

SUEYIN: Welcome! Thanks for your encouragement. I need all the help I can get!  AJ and Birba have provided me with invaluable guidance. I can't thank them enough! 

[ajspiano]

I had developed a very light, fluid touch for the 16th notes

Excellent.  - I would imagine this has dramatically reduced any feeling of tension building up in your hand and arm while trying to play this. Is this the case? if so then I guess this has been a big win for you, you can try to model the tension free feeling you get here to other phrases - thats  how they should all feel.

Your "lean-in-lean-out" demo to add wt or reduce wt on the keys was great. Is that what you do whenever you want to play louder or softer instead of using your fingers?

Yes and no. It is not as simple as just leaning in or out - what are you going to do if you want your left hand loud and right hand soft? I included the leaning in because it really highlights the feeling of allowing weight to increase the volume and enrich the tone, rather than just press harder with fingers. But you can do this just by releasing more of your arms weight, without leaning into the piano.

I'm not also trying to suggest that there is one exact way to play, rather the idea is to find one that does the job and is easy to do..   in this case putting more power in the fingers would destroy the fluency. Try it, go back to pressing with your fingers instead of letting your arm/body do the work. You will immediately feel the problems it creates. But remember, using your arm doesnt mean your fingers do nothing, they are active and have an important job.. you just can't be having your fingers trying to do both their job and your arms job.

[candlelightpiano]

Excellent.  - I would imagine this has dramatically reduced any feeling of tension building up in your hand and arm while trying to play this. Is this the case? if so then I guess this has been a big win for you, you can try to model the tension free feeling you get here to other phrases - thats  how they should all feel.

Yes, definitely this exercise has dramatically reduced the tension when playing this passage. It sounds very light and tinkly, too, instead of ponderous. Well, you'll know for sure if I got it when you watch my video. I'm trying to be as light as possible when playing the other phrases (from the beginning of this piece) but I'm not sure how to model this exercise to the other phrases. If I could do that, it would be a really big win for me. I love the way you play with that light touch.  You seem to float over the keys. There's no tension at all. I hope to record a video in the next day or two, when I can play it HT quite well.

I find it easier to lean in to increase weight on the keys than to release more of my arm weight. I'm not sure how to do that. Leaning in is something I can do quite easily. Thanks, AJ, for all you do for me.

[costicina]

Welcome back to your FI, Choo; I'm sure Chopin was missing you, as most of us. Without our model studen as an example, I were feeling a bit lost!!!!

[dire_tonic]

Greetings Choo!

Well now that you've recharged your batteries you can get stuck back in to work!

I fear FI will drive us all into an early rest-home.  Anyway, what with AJ's and Birba's pep talks and technical insights I'm looking forward to watching your further progress on this.

all the best...dt

[dire_tonic]

Hi Sueyin  -   I should say I did a really long string of takes and this was the only one worth keeping. I started work on this just after Choo began the thread in the other forum but I’m retired so I’ve lots of time and I worked on FI pretty much to the exclusion of everything else.

I’ve worked in and around music all my life so the piano has never been far away and I did 10 years of classical piano as a kid.  But to put Choo’s more impressive 2-year achievement in perspective, I attempted FI after that first 10 year stint and decided pretty quickly it was going to be too difficult for me!

Now it seems you've got up to bar 8, and as that would include the notorious bars 7/8, perhaps you should have a go at finishing this yourself?  Come aboard!

[sueyin]

Hi Sueyin  -   I should say I did a really long string of takes and this was the only one worth keeping.  Now it seems you've got up to bar 8, and as that would include the notorious bars 7/8, perhaps you should have a go at finishing this yourself?  Come aboard!

Thx, Dire Tonic. I had a feeling you were a much more experienced piano player than Candlelightpiano from your touch and your style. Not to say that Candlelight has no style (sorry, candlelight, this is not meant to offend you) but she plays like a learner and you don't. A really long string of takes? I don't understand. I just finished Gr 8 piano RSM and I tried FI last year. Definitely, FI is Diploma material. I may choose it for Associate Dip. so I will try it again. If Candlelight can do this after 2 years, I should be able to do it after 8 plus years!!
Another thing I want to add is that it's not only the expert videos that keep us (or me) coming back to watch this thread. I also enjoy the videos the learners put out and it's a lot of fun watching candlelight's progress in learning this challenging piece and reading the blog and the ups and downs that she experiences in learning this piece by herself (with guidance from Birba and AJ but self-directed and motivated).

[sueyin]

Candlelightpiano, I've been meaning to tell you that I'm from Penang!

[candlelightpiano]

MARG and DT: I'm happy to be home and practicing again! After my morning swim in the Caribbean and long walks on the gorgeous sand, I was pretty bored. Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home!!

[costicina]

Choo, like you, I would miss the piano, especially when you're in the middle, of an exciting project...But right now I enivy  ferociously your tropical trip..Here in Rome is SNOWING   !!! (the last time was about 30 years ago). Costanza is happy, I'm depressed as hell     
Anyway, cheer me up with a new video of your progresses!!!
Marg

[candlelightpiano]

SNOWING IN ROME!!!!!!  WOW!! Must be global warming! Ha ha! Go make some snowmen with Costanza! Enjoy the snow while it lasts. Here, we have far too much of it. New vid? I'll do my best!!  I'm working on almost the entire piece now, in sections, from the beg to the last page. What a project! What will you do when we have completed this piece in a few years? Will you suffer from withdrawal? Just kidding!

[costicina]

What will you do when we have completed this piece in a few years? Will you suffer from withdrawal? Just kidding!

I won't suffer from whitdrawal, because I'm absolutely sure you'll start another exciting thread for your nex, hot piece!!!  Piano playing is likely to induce addiction

[candlelightpiano]

You're right! I'm quite ADDICTED to the piano, for the first time in my life!! Someone must have put a spell on me. I wonder who? Well, my piece is all a muddle when I try to speed up in the beginning. Very frustrating!     At this rate, it will be years before I can play this piece completely without muddling up. I have a feeling AJ and Birba would have bid me goodbye by that time.   
And I'll be the laughing stock of this forum!

[costicina]

We all have bad days, and our moments of pure desperation and discouragement (for me they are the rule). It's part of the game: "no pain, no gain" 
But you'll overcame them, and your great staff of coachs will encourage and support you: as we all do

[dire_tonic]

You're right! I'm quite ADDICTED to the piano, for the first time in my life!! Someone must have put a spell on me. I wonder who? Well, my piece is all a muddle when I try to speed up in the beginning. Very frustrating!    At this rate, it will be years before I can play this piece completely without muddling up. I have a feeling AJ and Birba would have bid me goodbye by that time.  
And I'll be the laughing stock of this forum!

 - not at all!  You shouldn't worry about that.

In any case, the consensus seems to be that at your level, it SHOULD take years.

So take it easy, one small step at a time.  I know you said you're inclined be impatient.  If it turns out your impatience gets the better of you then so be it.  No one will be laughing.
There'd be some disappointment - no doubt.  But it's too early to be talking like that.

I'd intended to mention some time ago when I watched one of your earlier vids, you were using the metronome with the indicated base of a half note, as suggested on the score.  I can't remember exactly what tempo you'd selected.  Say it was 60.  I'm sure you'll find it easier to double up the metronome using the quarter note as the base.  So in that example you'd have set it to 120.  It's much easier to count like this - a more reliable guide....at least I've found it to be so.

You say you're muddling at speed.  Maybe it would be worthwhile establishing your current maximum muddle-free tempo as a reference for monitoring future progress?

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  I'll bet you don't realize how funny you are! Muddle-free tempo! ROFL!!  62 - 63 is my muddle-free tempo. When I play without the metronome, I play faster, who knows what tempo, but bar 7-8 gets muddled up, especially on the descent. Also, bars 11- 12. Of course, I've only been working on them for two days. It's been at least 3 weeks since I played this passage HT. Yeah, I'll try the met using the 1/4 note instead. But it shouldn't make a difference, should it? Strangely, I go way over 62 when I'm playing the octave passage with the thumb accents. I was kidding about it taking me years. I really don't think it will and I feel quite confident that I will complete this piece in a few months time.  

EDIT: I tried the metronome using the quarter note and I can't do it. I'm too used to using the half note.  

MARG:  No to pain! Yes to gain! Except weight gain!!  LOL! And thank you for your constant and unwavering support and encouragement. I may have moments of doubt but deep inside, I know I'll get this piece done.

[ajspiano]

The hands come together on each quarter note beat. It should help even out the 3's vs 4's... You can't stay doing it that way forever though as the minum feel is important to the flow of the music

[candlelightpiano]

The hands come together on each quarter note beat. It should help even out the 3's vs 4's... You can't stay doing it that way forever though as the minum feel is important to the flow of the music

I'll try it using the 1/4 note beat again but I found it difficult just now. Why is the minim feel important to the music?  When DT plays, no one can tell that he is playing in common time instead of alla breve.

[sueyin]

In any case, the consensus seems to be that at your level, it SHOULD take years.

I don't agree with the consensus, if there was one in the first place. Candlelight will not take years to complete this piece. She learns really fast and she's highly motivated and determined. I have confidence in her. Pity you don't.