Fantasie Impromptu Project

[caioramos]

Kyle: It's good to see you here! How are you? Packed for Calgary yet?

Hey Choo!

Yeah! I already packed most of my stuff.
Now I'm basically waiting to go, and also this week I'm hanging out with my friends to say goodbye.
But still, I'm having time to practice everyday. I played some FI today, this piece, of all of my repertoire is the one that gets my body tingling the most, it has such emotion. I hope I can play it perfectly one day. But I need my teacher now, I'm getting comfortable enough to play more freely and make my own interpretation but sometimes I don't know if I'm taking too much freedom and "crossing the line" you know. Like some rubatos and dynamics. Still, it's still hard to make a clean play-through as there is always some random mistake here and there I do, that's why I still not recorded.

You know, I think I pay the price for my quick progress on piano. I may play a piece of  this level but I don't have the confidence and the "second-nature" to the instrument as someone who learns it at a normal rate like 2 or 3 years I guess. That's why some of the pieces I play I always stumble here and there as much as I practice, guess I have to just give time to it 

[candlelightpiano]

Kyle: You're going to miss your friends and family, for sure, when you're here, especially in the winter when the days are dark and cold and the nights are long. But you'll make many friends and you'll be so busy practicing, anyway. I feel the same way you do, though I did study piano for 2 - 3 years, which is longer than you did. And I didn't have good teachers. That's why I have so many problems now but hopefully, by the time I've completed this piece, I would have improved a lot. At the rate I'm going, Kyle, I won't complete this piece in 2 years even though at the moment, I've actually worked at it to the last page though I haven't begun working on that last page, yet. Anyway, I love a challenge and this piece is definitely that!

[caioramos]

Come on Choo! 2 years is a whole lot!
I guess a couple more months, or 6 months tops you might be playing it pretty good

[candlelightpiano]

I don't know. By the time you're ready to leave Calgary, I may still be working on it here! ROFL!!

[candlelightpiano]

What I notice is that my elbow is high..  this is likely why my wrist is higher. There is is a whole myriad of potential reasons for this. For the majority of the video the primary reason for this is likely that I was leaning to the left (you can't see that at all since the camera angle doesnt show my body very well) meaning that my right shoulder was probably also raised .. I was trying to get a slightly better comprehension of what the camera could see. Another possibility is perhaps exaggerated rotation toward the thumb (this brings the elbow out).

Additionally, when I play the fragment of the piece all together at the end, my left hand wrist is also noticeably high..  this one I think is a result of my wrist also being turned to the left, and partly me being a little too close to the piano.. both things that I should fix.

There is likely a residual effect of me having learnt this piece years and years ago before I had any level of technical understanding, I think some of these factors apply to my polonaise aswell..  hardly an excuse, but a reason none the less. Perhaps also because the focus of this video was entirely on the direction of rotation I was not being overly concerned with other factors..  this is no doubt something I need to improve on as far as this kind of demonstration goes..

So Kyle and I were right about your wrist being high up on the keyboard. I'm trying to do that now when I practise. Lift up my elbows so my wrist is higher.

[ajspiano]

So Kyle and I were right about your wrist being high up on the keyboard. I'm trying to do that now when I practise. Lift up my elbows so my wrist is higher.

NO!!!!!!!

not my intention at all..

This raised arm is a direct result of exaggerating movements, its not how you should play. Its just what happened because I focused on rotation alone instead of the overall technique.

The post you have quoted was not meant as a "do it like me" - rather I was critiquing my own playing, pointing out what I think was possibly wrong. If you raise you're elbow you will either be lifting you shoulder or pushing upper arm out to the side. Both cause unnecessary tension/muscle activity.

If you would like to experiment with having your elbow higher, sit higher, as in raise you're piano bench. You're elbow should generally sit around the height of the keys. Mine is clearly too high in the video.

[candlelightpiano]

ROFL! You sounded like Birba when you said NO!!!!! Okay, I'll go and take a better look at my elbows in relation to the piano keyboard. I just thought you looked good with your elbow high like that and maybe I should copy cat you! When I watch my videos, my hands always appear to be too low.

[caioramos]

I think I got a little crazy today and started working on Chopin etude op10 no4 xD
I pretty much memorized the 1st page, but it's quite a pain to play it, the second page is twice harder from what I saw. I don't know, I will give it a try, if I can play the first page reasonably good I will try to go through the end!

[ajspiano]

ROFL! You sounded like Birba when you said NO!!!!!

perhaps with higher elbows you would be unable to make good pasta 

[caioramos]

perhaps with higher elbows you would be unable to make good pasta 

LOL

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: You're too much!!

Kyle: Why is that piece a pain? Do you mean real pain or just a pain in the ...?

[caioramos]

This thread is getting epic funny!

Choo: I mean by pain the piece being very difficult to play

[candlelightpiano]

Kyle: I'm sending you a link in your email.

[caioramos]

haha, love the thread, I will post there later!

[dire_tonic]

hello Choo, I hadn't realised you were running such a lively thread here - much busier than the 'other place'.

So, what with the excellent advice you're getting from Birba and AJ, perhaps I could tag along here also?

regards, dt

[candlelightpiano]

hello Choo, I hadn't realised you were running such a lively thread here - much busier than the 'other place'.

So, what with the excellent advice you're getting from Birba and AJ, perhaps I could tag along here also?

regards, dt

Welcome, Dire Tonic!

YES!!!! This IS definitely the place to be if you are interested in all things piano. The other forum was sooooooooooooooo dull! Love to have you join me. As you can see from the posts, I have A LOT of work to do! I don't know if I'll live long enough to see it to completion!! OMG! But I will be persistent. I don't want to let anyone down, especially those who have helped me and had faith in me.

Be sure to check the ANYTHING BUT PIANO area where we have loads of fun talking about anything and everything. I have two topics there, too. You'll find that area on PianoStreet's home page. Do say hello to me there, too!

Once again, welcome! It's good to have you here.

Choo Choo

[ajspiano]

hello Choo, I hadn't realised you were running such a lively thread here - much busier than the 'other place'.

So, what with the excellent advice you're getting from Birba and AJ, perhaps I could tag along here also?

regards, dt

Hi Dire_tonic..  

I took a look around the "other place" - saw this..

"I’m not so sure about the rotation idea and although I humbly acknowledge AJs authority on the subject I’m not convinced it’s for me. For example, I notice when I play bar 8 which has a fair quota of left/right-ing, that the faster I play the more my wrist rotates so, bearing in mind I was never taught to rotate, this suggests to me that it's more a natural consequence than a technical device. But it may turn out to be useful for you, I don’t know. In any case, I suspect (I could be wrong) you'll be unable to start working on increasing tempo in any section until it’s under complete control of muscle memory. If that includes attention to rotation as well, then you have extra work to undertake. But I don’t rule out its possible long-term benefit to your technique – I’m not qualified to know."

You're point is pretty valuable - about the bar 8 section where a sense of rotation is quite intuitive i think.

It can be valuable for some people because there are situations where people have been taught specifically not to rotate. This situation is fairly unusual i guess. My video is not directly applicable to any one persons situation, rather just an analysis of those bars, its a lesson on a concept more than it was directly applicable. If the rotation is incorrect at a point it can really disrupt the passage, so its important. Try the LRLRLR in bar 8, but do something like LLRRLLRR - it will be plainly obviously that its important - this section is not one likely to cause a problem for most people though. By contrast, going R after the thumb when you come down from the top of the phrase is likely to cause a problem because of the notes going left, its easy to assume that you arm must continue to go left. - Or perhaps, attempt the phrase without letting your forearm turn, it will cause your fingers to take on a much bigger workload and you will feel the tension.

With all that in mind - the best way to tackle this on an individual basis is to take a look at a whole phrase. If there's a problem with a part of the phrase you might check the rotational is going the right way, maybe just 2-3 notes don't work quite right and thats all you need to deal with.

I actually think better understanding of rotation is important for choo as a means to resolving tension in her hand overall, to allow her to speed up comfortably. This phrase seemed like a good way to illustrate some beginning information about it. I think that dwelling too much on it is not a great idea - rather the understanding/execution can be discussed and worked on over time and gradually implemented into the technique.

I can't impress enough that its just a discussion on one small aspect of a big picture, but in saying that sometimes its hard to maintain that careful distant perspective on the situation when you're dealing with a great mass of information that can be a little overwhelming.

[dire_tonic]

 - Hi AJ - many thanks for your post which raises many questions for me.  I've been working on FI since Choo started her thread - it was her adventure with this piece which triggered my interest.   I'm hoping to put up a video of my own effort within a week or two and would be most grateful if you were perpared to offer a critique.  Anyway, right now I'm almost falling over so it's essential I hit the sack (1:30am in France) but will be back in the very near future with some thoughts and queries..

pleased to meet you here!

[candlelightpiano]

Dire Tonic: I look forward to your video!

[ajspiano]

- Hi AJ - many thanks for your post which raises many questions for me.  I've been working on FI since Choo started her thread - it was her adventure with this piece which triggered my interest.   I'm hoping to put up a video of my own effort within a week or two and would be most grateful if you were perpared to offer a critique.  Anyway, right now I'm almost falling over so it's essential I hit the sack (1:30am in France) but will be back in the very near future with some thoughts and queries..

pleased to meet you here!

Yes i'd be happy to take a look - as far as getting a decent response beyond a few written observations.. it may take a little while. There is a queue steadily forming (see "Free video lessons" thread - not very big yet but who knows what will happen). All depends on how much free time I have.

Look forward to seeing you play.
AJ

[birba]

These are just a few observations on the "fingers" and why the pinky may remain tense

[ajspiano]

This was really great birba.

Interesting that you mention the lineage to tobias mattai (no idea if that's the right spelling) - Edna Golandsky is often quoting from his book during the taubman technique lectures. Particularly valuable to see your explanation and practice examples for this as we are essentially explaining the exact same concepts in two completely different ways.

The finger activity discussion is good to have. The arm motions I discussed regarding rotation are all geared toward facilitating and supporting the fingers job. Which is ofcourse why I have said that my video was a fairly isolated concept lesson, there is much much more explanation required.

For anyone watching birbas videos - there are places where he mentions the fingers staying together (not stretched), and the fact that the fingers go up and come down together. You can also see very clearly the way his arm carries his hand to exactly where it needs to be to play the next note. These are all excellent bits of advice to follow and emulate.

[costicina]

WOW!!!  
You came from the school of VINCENZO VITALE?
One of the best Italian teacher...
Chapeau!!!

and wonderful tutorial videos, as always!!! We'are learning so much from you. Thank you!

Margherita

[candlelightpiano]

These are just a few observations on the "fingers" and why the pinky may remain tense

Thank you so very much, Birba! I'll watch your videos many times to try and understand this exercise. I'll practice it for a few days and record a video to show you my understanding of your tutorial.

When you mentioned playing each note without tension, do you mean that my wrists should be completely free of tension with the tension only coming from the fingertips?

May I post your videos to my blog?

Thank you once again.

[keyboardclass]

Interesting that you mention the lineage to tobias mattai (no idea if that's the right spelling) - Edna Golandsky is often quoting from his book during the taubman technique lectures.

Unliked I may be, but my teacher, also occasionally unliked in her time, was a pupil of Matthay.

[candlelightpiano]

Unliked I may be, but my teacher, also occasionally unliked in her time, was a pupil of Matthay.

For your information, I don't unlike you. I dislike you.

[keyboardclass]

For your information, I don't unlike you. I dislike you.

Hmm, I'm sure there's something funny there somewhere.

[candlelightpiano]

Hmm, I'm sure there's something funny there somewhere.

Unlike you, I have a sense of humor.

[keyboardclass]

Touché!

[dire_tonic]

Dire Tonic: I look forward to your video!

 - I know the longer it takes the bigger will be the anticlimax.

Unfortunately the arthritis in my right pinkie is back which is troubling me in bars 17-22.

The weirdest thing now is I find the RH of bar 5 amongst the most difficult.  I laboured over 7 and 8 but they seem to be less of a problem for me.  Bar 5 has become so troublesome that I've experimented with various fingerings and none are as comfortable as I'd like.

What fingering do you use?

[caioramos]

Bar 5 can't be more difficult than 7/8

For bar 5, I use the fingering 2-3-2-1-2-3-5-3-2-3-2-1-2-3-5
Just play it very slowly until it get comfortable. Hands separated, then join

[dire_tonic]

Bar 5 can't be more difficult than 7/8

For bar 5, I use the fingering 2-3-2-1-2-3-5-3-2-3-2-1-2-3-5
Just play it very slowly until it get comfortable. Hands separated, then join

Hello Kyle!

Well, the 3-2-3-2 which crops up all over the place was causing me to seize up if I tried to play at speed..either that or 3-2-3-2 would run away with itself like a mini-trill so I've been working on other options.

 - but I might go back to it.  Well see!

 - thanks for the post -dt

[candlelightpiano]

Hello Kyle!

Well, the 3-2-3-2 which crops up all over the place was causing me to seize up if I tried to play at speed..either that or 3-2-3-2 would run away with itself like a mini-trill so I've been working on other options.

 - but I might go back to it.  Well see!

 - thanks for the post -dt

I use the same fingering as Kyle. I don't have a lot of problems with bars 7 - 8. I just have to work on the tension, which is a BIG problem for me.

Have you watched Birba's two videos that he posted this morning? It's a few posts up from here. I'm hoping to do a short video for him tonight to show him what I think I understood but I may not post the video here.

You may want to watch Birba's first video for me, when he taught me to do the staccato leggiero for bars 5-8. It may help you get over the problem you're encountering at the moment. It'll be easier for you to find it on my blog:

https://www.projectfantasie.blogspot.com

There's no hurry to do a video. You may want to rest your fingers till your arthritis improves. At the rate I'm going, I'll be working on this piece for years!!!!!    However, even though I have absolutely no plans to do any serious piano playing, there's always lots of room for improvement. I figure that it's better to learn a piece very well, even if it takes longer, than to learn it fast and play it terribly and then play everything else terribly as well.

[ajspiano]

I use 4232 there..

I learnt it as
232123542321235

Have been trialling
232124532321235

The 1245 seems to fit more comfortably over the notes in the first hand position Fx G# C# E - it Avoids stretch between 2 and 3. Thing is that using 3 on the C# should perhaps make the move to the 2nd hand position smoother. Stretching is bad news though, have to practice getting the arm across which is one of my dodgy habits trailing over from learning this price when my technique was subpar (it still is, just not quite so much)

[dire_tonic]

 - thanks Choo.  I'm tied up somewhat today and will be travelling tomorrow so hope to get back to the job in hand by Monday or Tuesday and will report then.  This will give me a chance to rest pinkie (and the thumb is a little sore too) then I'll check out Birba's first video as you suggest.  I'll also look at AJ's fingering suggestions on bar 5.

I think you're right to see FI as a long project, something one can work on daily even if only for a few minutes.  At the moment it seems to be dominating my time spent at the piano and I think I'll have to get back into a more balanced, broad approach particularly since I've noticed Mrs Tonic's patience is wearing thin...but for the moment, anyway, i'm HOOKED! 

[candlelightpiano]

A rest will do you a world of good. A couple of weeks ago, I decided to take some time off, and even though I eventually only took one day off, I was playing a lot better the next day. I practice other pieces as well but focus primarily on FI and Birba's exercises. I now see FI not simply as a piece to learn to play, but as a musical education journey.

I think Birba's videos are getting lost among the posts so I'm posting them here again:

[caioramos]

Amazing video!

I'm fascinated by Birba's articulation technique. As he said, it requires LOTS of time, besides the fundamental exercises, you can (or maybe you must) apply it note by note on your piece, which requires huge patience because let's face it, it's really tedious to do it. But it really pays off in the end. I could hear the beautiful tone and clarity which Birba plays.

But I'm confused if this is a must technique, or if it's something unusual that he learned in his school days. A lot of people play really good without using this articulation. I'm not sure what to think about it

[ajspiano]

I have found birbas video to be particularly interesting. I can see many similarities in how he plays to how I aim to play - His technique is far more refined than mine. Interesting your query regarding whether this kind of practice is a must Kyle. I don't personally have any difficulty playing without tension and maintaining even articulation (though I'm sure I could improve) and I have never done this kind of exercise. My interest in this kind if thing began with the question of how to teach it to someone that doesnt do it intuitively, and since only very few people do it intuitively it seems that it is likely a must.

There is a difficulty in that it requires such diligence and patient practice to see improvement. And this is perhaps why most students should study pieces of graduated difficultly rather than leaping ahead. Harder piece require a much more refined technique in order to perform to a high standard.

Most students would get bored and frustrated being given large amounts of this kind of exercise before getting to apply the developing skills to music.

I think I'd like to further the discussion a bit with a video discussing the content of birbas video, and where there is perhaps room for misinterpretation. Im concerned that it may come off a bit as though I was tryin to point out problems with his video though, which would not be my intention.

I'd also be interested to see anyone attempting these techniques and hear how they feel about them and what they understood/learnt from watching.

[caioramos]

Exactly AJ, that's the answer I was looking for. If you can't do it intuitively, than probably you need to practice it.

My former teacher always prevented her students from articulating too much because it creates tension most of the times (playing pianissimo was one exception for example, and would require some articulation). She's all for the wrist rotation, hand waving and creating impulse for a relaxed and comfortable playing.

But the difference from what Birba explained in his video is the way you lift your fingers, when one mentions the articulating factor you usually picture the lifting of a finger, and that's what creates tension. Birba's technique is something more of a finger impulse that focus on the fingertips. So I guess it makes for a viable articulation technique

[ajspiano]

In the Taubman techniques this is one of the reasons behind rotation. The turn of the forearm kick starts the lift of the fingers which lightens the load on certain muscle groups that are causing the tension.

^This is ofcourse a limited unsatisfacory description...

[birba]

I'm not advising anyone to adopt this technique.  Like I said in the video, it suited ME perfectly because of my particular background.  It was such an earth-shattering revelation to me, I became a crusader for this technique and felt so proud to be of the "Vitali" school.  But with time you begin to see things in a more objective light and I realized this is only a very small part of piano technique, albeit of upmost importance.  I also realized that tension is absolutely necessary, but only where you want it and only if YOU control it, and not the reverse. 
It's true:  it's a mechanical analysis of an intuitive way of playing.  I was always impressed with the italian school of playing.  From Michelangeli on downwards.      There was something so fluid and transparent about it.  And it wasn't just the school of Vitali.  Look at Maria Tipo.  Pollini.  All the young pianists from the Imola school - which, by the way, is not a school at all.  These are young italian pianists playing "intuitively".  Argerich, herself, has always been an admirer of Italian pianists.  And you're right.  It takes months of diligent work to get it if you've been trained in another way.
At any rate, don't take this video as any sort of "lesson"!  It came out only as a help for Choo choo in her FI.  There are many valid ways of playing the piano.  Each person finds his own.

[keyboardclass]

May I just correct something birba said?  There are two tendons in each finger (not one) - one attached to the nail joint and one attaced to the middle joint.  Each of these joints are capable of some independent movement hence, for instance, the carrezando touch.

[birba]

Definitely!  I think I used the wrong word.  Going with the natural ability of the hand, the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers are naturally dependent, to a certain extent, on one another.  There are individual muscles that permit little movements, like the carezzando one you metioned, but for a strong loud articulate striking of the key of the 4th finger, let's say, is impossible without some play of the 3rd and 5th finger along with it.  I used to do those pischna excercises of holding down the notes, but articulating ever so lightly when there was an isolated movement of the 4th finger.  I notice now, the 5th finger is also more independent - like the 3rd finger.  This so-called "weakness" of the 4th finger is what drove Schumann to injure himself for life.  Or so they say.  Anyway, like I say, don't listen to me like I was imparting a lesson.  It's more like myself thinking out loud.  Sorting things out in my mind.   

[keyboardclass]

  There are individual muscles that permit little movements, like the carezzando one you metioned,

Not quite.  There are two sets of muscles in the forearm. One for operating the nail joints and one for operating the the middle joint.  Carrezando touch uses the former more, your technique uses them both roughly equally.   It's as you say, the third, fourth and fifth tendons are to some extent fused as they reach their muscle.  The fifth finger is freer as it's not tethered on one side.   

[candlelightpiano]

BIRBA: Thank you very much once again for taking the time to show me a way to improve and  for helping me with this.

KYLE:  Birba mentioned a Kyle on his first video. Was that you? Did you study the Taubman method?

AJ: I'm still trying to learn this technique from Birba. I'll demonstrate it in a video for the topic when I've got it right. At the moment, it's a work in progress (hopefully).

[ajspiano]

I think birba may have meant me when he said Kyle. - the video I did for this thread is all arm movement, as is almost everything I discussed in the video for Kyle in the revolutionary thread.

[candlelightpiano]

I wondered if he meant you and got the names mixed up. It did sound more like you than Kyle. Thanks for clarifying.

[birba]

   so embarassed.  Kyle was the guy doing the rev.   I just remember choo choo - my god, these names are driving me crazy - saying kyle to someone once and I just got confused.  I'll stick to pseudonyms from now on!

[candlelightpiano]

I just remember choo choo

 

[candlelightpiano]

Someone told me about this edition for Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu in C# minor Op 66. It's edited by Maurice Hinson and includes Chopin's original manuscript as well as the Fontana edition.

The Foreword includes the context in which the FI was composed, notes about the Fontana edition, and notes from Hinson about performing his piece and practice techniques.

The main differences between Chopin's original ms and the Fontana version is in bars 13 - 24. In the Fontana version, you have the thumbs accented for bars 13 - 16, then the 5th finger accented for the off beats from bars 17 - 24. The original has no accents but the first note of each 16th note group is held as a quarter note. There are other differences as well.

Since Arthur Rubenstein was mentioned as the Chopinist in this book, I found his YouTube performance of this piece, which was of the original version.

In Hinson's opinion, this piece is usually played too fast, as an exercise in velocity rather than as the poetic expression of two contrasted moods - that of the Allegro Agitato and a broadly lyrical middle section.

This edition may be purchased here:

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Fantaisie-Impromptu/3533418