Liszt Consolation No. 3 Project

[megadodd]

Auw, I hope it's not a serious flu! Get better soon!

I'm happy you feel the effect straight away! Some day you won't have to think about being relaxed, it's just the natural state.

For practice purpose I think it's great to keep a steady beat throughout the piece, so you can easily whirl away a little when you want to record or perform the piece, and then come back to original rythm more easy. And keep the same rythm while playing either pianissimo or forte.

It looked very good and relaxed Choo!

Perhaps I'll try and make a video today with some thoughts that comes ahead, but I have no idea how to transfer the files from my phone to my computer!

What do you use for recording?

[candlelightpiano]

MEGADODD: Your relaxation steps worked wonders for me! I couldn't get anywhere near this relaxed over the last two months!! So you're pretty incredible!  Thank you!  I plan to do it all the time, definitely before practice and also during and apply it to FI. I use my Panasonic Lumix camera. It has a video recording button. If you can use your camera for videoing, you will need to upload it to the computer but you may need some photo software. Did one come with your phone? I'm not sure what software you have. I have several because I have or had several different brands of cameras. Once you upload it, then you will need to upload it to YouTube.

How do I apply your relaxation technique to fast passages?

DT:  Thanks and good to see you here again. I'm glad you see the difference. How far along are you, in this piece? I'll start putting in the RH today for the first page or less. The more I listen to this piece, the more I love it. I'm actually in love with this piece now. My fav so far is Yi Jong - love his grand piano in that vast and beautiful room, his expression, the sound he produces, and his cool hat!

[ajspiano]

MEGADODD: Your relaxation steps worked wonders for me!

How do I apply your relaxation technique to fast passages?

At the risk of providing an insufficient explanation (and without rereading megadodds post)..

He has essentially taught you how to drop into the keys with your arms weight, and maintain a relaxed wrist as you play for an individual note or chord.

So what if the dropping of the arms weight was created by an arm motion over a series of notes. So there was a group of 4 notes say? and you dropped into the first one, moved forward into the next, forward again for the next, then shifted you momentum slightly backward on the next..  and at the same time the position of your wrist (height) move slightly up and down creating almost arc like shapes over the phrase - controlled by you adjusting the amount of forearm weight you let drop into each key.

an arm circle perhaps?

What if every phrase you ever played had a pattern as such, where the momentum shifted forward or backward and the arm constantly adjusted the weight applied to the keys..?  So that the changes in direction and momentum kept ALL motion free flowing and relaxed because you were never stuck rigidly in one place, and the constant changing of weight on different notes within the group allowed you to change the expression of the notes effortlessly instead of having to press harder or softer exclusively with the fingers?

[candlelightpiano]

AJ: I re-read your post several times and I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that as long as every phrase I play has this arm circle, it won't matter if I'm playing a slow passage or a fast passage? That this technique is applied the same way? Just that I go faster?

[ajspiano]

AJ: I re-read your post several times and I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that as long as every phrase I play has this arm circle, it won't matter if I'm playing a slow passage or a fast passage? That this technique is applied the same way? Just that I go faster?

shifts in momentum and forward/backward movement, as well as the up/down forearm shape of the phrase help keep you free of tension. The movements keep everything flowing smoothly (you never have to stop and change direction, or hold yourself in one place - you just keep going) and place you in the optimal balanced position over any given note.

Every phrase can involve this idea, I mean every phrase. EVERY single one. - they vary enormously though, and sometimes its hard to figure out what they should be. Sometimes they are bigger, sometimes smaller, the direction of the movement may be different too. It just depends on what exact notes you are playing.

Megadodd got you to play CDEFG right? as individual notes, dropping into them with your arm?

As a phrase, they work best as, in, out, out, in, in..  (depth into the keys) ..and..
down,up, up, down, down. (wrist height, controlled by forarm)

In finks terms - all that combined would create an arm circle.

This is all likely hard to visuallise.. I'll make you a short video of CDEFG later on tonight.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ. I look forward to your video very much.

QUESTION ABOUT THE NOTES IN BAR 15:  

Do I play the last five notes of the RH (Ab, Db, C, E, F) together with the last five notes of the LH (F, Db, Ab, F, Db)? I mean, instead of having to fit them in irregularly? There are 12 LH notes and if you think of the half note in the RH as 6 eighth notes, then there are also 12 notes in the RH. I think I'm right but need to clarify. I watched Paul Barton play it (about 6 mins into video) and it sounded like he was still fitting them in irregularly but I couldn't figure out why he was doing that because if there are equal numbers of notes in the RH and LH, shouldn't the remaining 5 notes in both hands be played together? Hope I'm not confusing you guys!.

[dire_tonic]

Thanks, AJ. I look forward to your video very much.

QUESTION ABOUT THE NOTES IN BAR 15:  

Do I play the last five notes of the RH (Ab, Db, C, E, F) together with the last five notes of the LH (F, Db, Ab, F, Db)? I mean, instead of having to fit them in irregularly? There are 12 LH notes and if you think of the half note in the RH as 6 eighth notes, then there are also 12 notes in the RH. I think I'm right but need to clarify. I watched Paul Barton play it (about 6 mins into video) and it sounded like he was still fitting them in irregularly but I couldn't figure out why he was doing that because if there are equal numbers of notes in the RH and LH, shouldn't the remaining 5 notes in both hands be played together? Hope I'm not confusing you guys!.

Horowitz plays the last 5 notes of bar 15 with RH and LH in sync (but relaxed and with some tempo variation).

(go to 1:12)

Paul Barton also plays them in sync in his 'performance' version

(go to 1:02)
 - but, as you say, in his tutorial version he plays them irregularly (strange!).

Progress on this is interrupted by tendonitis in both my thumbs! But I'm playing it (badly) just to get to know the notes.

Fascinating to note the differences various pianists are bringing to the piece.  There are significant variations in where the LH Db ties occur and where the notes are replayed – particularly between 18 and 24.  Maybe it’s because it doesn’t really matter too much !?

Also, the last 6 LH notes in bar 15 you were asking about, Horowitz repeats those in the first half of bar 16 (they’re not written!).  Another pair of whoppers; he plays the LH whole notes in 42 and 43 (Ab, Db) 8va basso.  I really like this – it makes even more of the crescendo without it being heavy handed.  And he adds the LH Db on the final note of the piece.  To me that seems pretty daring and I think it might have sent Liszt apoplectic with rage.  I suppose when you’re Horowitz, you can do that sort of thing without being accused of having made mistakes!

Choo, I can't find the Yi Jong version you mention?

[birba]

Just dropping by!  Megadod's relaxation technique is a lot like what I did when I was studying with this student of Breithaupt.  I had to play every single note of the bach d minor concerto like that.  It took about 2 hours to get through the first movement.  But months of practising like that really paid off and  gave me an idea of what it's like to play with complete freedom.  Then, of course, you have to combine finger work into it.  That's another lesson.
You really explained it well, meggadod!  Like you said it's not easy doing something like this over the internet.

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  Thanks. Sorry to hear about the tendonitis. That must hurt!  I hope you'll be feeling better soon. You made excellent observations about Horowitz.  He may have another version. I noticed for FI, he had a completely different version and I never could find it. The Yi Jong video is on the first page of this thread (reply #24). Pretty cool, I think, considering he's only 20!! StarStruck5 posted it. I also posted Maurice Hinson's practice notes on the first page of this thread (reply #1) and he talked about the tied Db. He says we should play the tied Db unless we want to use the middle pedal to sustain it. I've never used it before so I'll play the tied notes.

The other question that I have is this: Was Horowitz using 1-3, 1-4 for the octaves like Paul Barton suggests we do? And why should the octaves be played like that when we have the pedal anyway? It's quite a stretch for some people. I think I have fairly large hands and can stretch it but is it necessary? Won't it cause tension?

BIRBA:  Thanks for stopping by! Always nice to have you here!

[dire_tonic]

DT:  Thanks. Sorry to hear about the tendonitis. That must hurt!  I hope you'll be feeling better soon. You made excellent observations about Horowitz.  He may have another version. I noticed for FI, he had a completely different version and I never could find it. The Yi Jong video is on the first page of this thread (reply #24). Pretty cool, I think, considering he's only 20!! StarStruck5 posted it. I also posted Maurice Hinson's practice notes on the first page of this thread (reply #1) and he talked about the tied Db. He says we should play the tied Db unless we want to use the middle pedal to sustain it. I've never used it before so I'll play the tied notes.

The other question that I have is this: Was Horowitz using 1-3, 1-4 for the octaves like Paul Barton suggests we do? And why should the octaves be played like that when we have the pedal anyway? It's quite a stretch for some people. I think I have fairly large hands and can stretch it but is it necessary? Won't it cause tension?

BIRBA:  Yes, Megadodd explained the relaxation technic very well, especially for someone like me. I need the KISS principle! Thanks for dropping by! Always nice to have you here!

..don't know how I missed the Yi Jong performance - really good.  It's so much slower than Horowitz that when he (Yi) plays the 7 note figure at the end of bar 22 (and similar) he completely abandons the 4 against 3 cross-rhythm and bunches those 7 notes into little more than 1 beat at the end of the bar.  It still sounds good like that.

I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but for recreational players like us I don't think the octave fingering is that important when, as you say, were using the sustain so much in this piece.
Doing 'proper' fingering for octaves is certainly worthwhile in the long run since there will surely be occasions when the sustain isn't required but we need to get as close as possible to a legato in octaves.  Doing it properly now is an investment for the future.

I can't see exactly what Horowitz is doing here - maybe someone else can.  In any case I suspect he's doing it 'properly'.

[costicina]

Brava Choo!!!
You are going to do great things with this piece...you have the soul and the touch for it!!! And I'm sure that when you''ll try it on a real piano you'll be amazed to discover how GOOD you really  are
Marg

[ajspiano]

Ms Golandsky flat out bans the playing of octaves with 1-3 or 1-4 at all times since regardless of how wide your reach is it causes a twisting of the wrist because the 3rd and 4th fingers are so much further in front of the thumb. In the videos she says legato octaves must be played 1-5 and joined by the pedal.

Maybe that's a little dogmatic? I don't like using 1-4 frequently though, as in I avoid over practicing it. There are situations where it works better than others I think, should always come down to what's most comfortable for you, and the sound you want to achieve

[starstruck5]

Wow, that is really lovely velvety playing.  I think this a very promising beginning!

[candlelightpiano]

STARSTRUCK:  Whose velvety playing are you referring to?

DT and AJ:  I was asking about the playing of the octaves because of what Ms Golansky said in the video - NOT to do it like that if we were going to use the pedal as it causes a lot of tension. I'm not at that section yet but I guess when I get to it, I'll try it out the way Paul Barton suggests. How are you playing it, DT?

MARG:  Always nice to have you here. I'm reconsidering getting an acoustic baby grand because I'm coming to terms with the brutal truth that I just can't play piano well!! At least, not in this lifetime! Maybe if I were born again! Ha ha ha!

[zoecalgary]

Choo, I think your playing would skyrocket on an acoustic. No matter which digital I tried I felt  nothing, no matter at what price, came close to playing on an acoustic. If not a baby grand even a nice upright acoustic would be awesome. Think about this again. I think you would fall in love with piano again and again and again if you had access to an acoustic to play on everyday.  Just my thoughts...

[candlelightpiano]

Nice to have you back, Zoe! You must be feeling better. I hope so. Well, if you think an acoustic would make such a difference ....but the person playing the piano is still the same.  Oh, well, I'll think it over. Got the bucks, just not the talent. But thanks for your encouraging words, anyway. I appreciate it. I hope you took a few sick days off from piano.

[starstruck5]

Here's my first video. I did Megadodd's relaxation exercise prior and I never felt more relaxed at the piano. I didn't feel any tension either. Thanks so much, Megadodd. I hope my playing reflects that.  I'm not sure if this is how the LH should be played and would appreciate your feedback. I wasn't thinking of playing it at ppp when I was playing it. My focus was on being as relaxed as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbYC7bVAB0E&feature=youtu.be

Megadodd:  Before you play CDEFG (for the relaxation exercise), should you sit at regular piano stool height?

This velvety playing!

[zoecalgary]

Yes, I am feeling a bit better thanks. Just sleepy from the late night and no chance to nap!  I'm hoping to record my LH part sometime soon to get some feedback. I'm not sure I'm doing the wrist thing right.

You know what you should do? Go piano testing. Take a couple of hours and go play some acoustics. Bring your music with you and sit and really play. Trust me, nobody will care what you play or how. I've done this a few times these last few months and after the first apprehension I've just gotten lost in the experience after awhile.  It is fun and you will certainly be able to feel and hear a difference with your level of playing. Go play FI on some uprights and some grands. I think you will be impressed with the sounds and the feeling. Not that the digital is wrong/bad. I just think it is very different. Especially for the pieces you are playing. You may be surprised to realize that some things will feel easier and other things harder. But then, each piano feels/sounds different so you have to try lots out. Do this and I think you may wonder that an acoustic piano may be in your future yet!

[candlelightpiano]

This velvety playing!

STARSTRUCK5:  You're really making me blush! You're too nice!!  

ZOE: I'll do that when this week's madness is over in our house and when we've had a chance to rest up from it. Play FI?? OMG! NO!! Problem with me is that I'm so super nervous that I won't be able to play a thing.

[ajspiano]

If you're going to test pianos I would recommend playing something you are incredibly comfortable with, not FI. Something where you have full control over the notes and their dynamics.

You want to be able to give your attention to considering the qualities of the instrument, not have to focus on how to play the piece.

You could just play a few chords to begin with, maybe a scale. This way there's an easy unified test method for different instruments. The difference between a baby grand and 9ft concert piano is very obvious this way. Doing just that is usually enough for me to know whether or not I like the instruments tone.. after that I play something more complicated to get a feel for its action when playing faster progressions of notes, or things that require more power.

You also have to listen to the different ranges..  sometimes a piano sounds great in the low end but the high sound is lost because the high end has no punch compared to the deep thunderous bass. or vice versa..  such as overly harsh high end, hollow bottom end..

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ, for the piano testing tips. I will keep your advice in mind if/ when I go shopping. One moment I want to shop and the next I don't!  I'm so flighty!

Here's Ilya Itin playing this piece:

He seems to take a lot of time between the low Db and the second note and he plays all the LH notes with his RH. And, I think he uses 1-5 for all his octaves. My favorite is still Yi Jong. He plays it slowly but has such a beautiful tone and control and tenderness. But I definitely love watching Horowitz flick the flies!

[caioramos]

Hey Choo! Zoe! AJ!

I'm back 

[ajspiano]

Here's Ilya Itin playing this piece: I think he uses 1-5 for all his octaves

Exceedingly likely.

He's on the faculty at the golandsky institute so no doubt follows the all principles from the taubman techniques.

[candlelightpiano]

KYLE!!  Welcome back!! I can hardly believe my eyes! You've been gone SO long! We missed you. Wait till Zoe sees your post in the morning! This is great!

AJ:  I see. But his playing is so strange! I can't wait to hear what DT will say about it.

[zoecalgary]

Kyle! I have been wondering about you forever! It is so good to see you back here!! I am so excited! How have you been! You think I'm crazy don't you!! Tell us your news! It is so nice to hear from you!!

[zoecalgary]

Choo, yes AJ is right play something you are familiar with when you go piano testing. In my mind I was thinking that when i said bring your Music but didn't say it explicitely. Duh!  I just thought it would be fun to also play FI since this is your current big project. And dont be worried about whoever is listening just do your thing! Also you can get the sales man/lady to play for you. They are usually pretty good players I've discovered. And you can hear the piano from different perspectives.   

You will have fun trust me!

[megadodd]

Sorry for my inactivity!

I've been forced to practice alot more than I realised, I'm playing a Chopin evening on thursday for the conservatoire so it takes up alot of my time preparing it.

I'll read up on all the replys later.
However, I tried to record a video with my iPhone for test purpose, but I couldn't get it into the computers harddrive for some reason, perhaps it's because I have a Windows computer and an Apple phone, I read on some forum about people cursing alot they are incompatible(is that the word?) . They don't really get along well, so to speak.
Anyone know how to fix this? I wish to upload some videos concerning this thread.

This thread has exploded though, nice to see so much interesst! I'm sure your opus 66 thread was the same, I didn't follow it though.

[ajspiano]

I can copy and paste the video straight from my iPhone.. But I have a jailbroken phone. Your iPhone can upload directly to YouTube too, though the quality isn't great.

[candlelightpiano]

MEGADODD: Welcome back!! It's so good to see you back here! I missed you. All the very best for your evening recital. Which Chopin will you be performing?  

I did some research and learned some ways in which you can transfer your videos or photos from iphone to computer. I don't know if you've already tried this but here's the link:

https://www.imtoo.com/iphone-transfer/how-to-transfer-video-from-iphone-to-computer.html

Let me know if it works!

AJ:  What is a jailbroken phone? It's not what I think it sounds like, is it?   

[dire_tonic]

Choo, really interesting to look and listen to Ilya Itin’s version. Although I’d be very happy to be able to play the piano as well as him I think his take on the piece is a bit too eccentric for me.  In the first 2 bars he starts the broken chord forte, fading to pp in each bar.  Bar 16 sounds like a race and there are other assorted quirks.  Generally I find his timing is unsettling and for me distracts from the emotion of the piece.  Like Horowitz, he plays the 8va basso in 42/43, only moreso – I like that. 

Who could have imagined so many radically different interpretations? I think I’m in danger of consolation overload so now, when I try and play this, I’m so intimidated by its possibilities I end up doing nothing but playing the notes with no expression, only fear.  In fact, no consolation at all.

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  "Eccentric" aptly describes Ilya Itin's version. He plays this piece like nothing I've ever heard of! At the moment, I'm only putting it HT first page and focusing on relaxation so I'm playing without feeling. I'm assuming you've played the whole piece? Wouldn't surprise me! It is strange that there are so many different interpretations! Perhaps this piece lends itself to that. Of the four we have posted and Lang Lang, I wonder which version Liszt would have liked the best?  

[zoecalgary]

Happy Valentines day everybody!

Wow! What interpretations indeed. Makes my playing sound extremely boring! I think I like Yi's best though I Would love to play like any of these folks.

Still haven't had the chance to record anything. And not too much play time lately. Schedules are all out of whack with everybody being sick. Thankfully I'm feeling a bit better though. Maybe tonight I can try.

[zoecalgary]

Megadodd, Good wishes for your recital on Thursday!

[megadodd]

Hmm, I'll check into that! I havn't really tried anything, but it seems like AJ was right, I can upload directly from my phone to youtube, but I rather do it from the computer if it works, so I can hear that the sound is bareable first.

Thanks for the goodluck wishes.
I'm going to play the almost latter half of the preludes, nos 15-24.
Valse in E minor, posthumous. And Nocturne opus 62 no.1.

[candlelightpiano]

MEGADODD:  Sounds like you'll be playing a full recital! All the very best! I suppose you could upload directly to YouTube then listen to it there. If you don't like it, just delete it. May be easier that way. So how do you upload directly to YouTube? Do you need a USB connection or is your phone synched with YouTube wirelesly? Did your iphone come with software? Sorry for all those questions but I have an interest in electronic gadgets.

ZOE: For some reason, there are so many different versions being played. MINE really sounds dull, especially the first page, which is only where I'm at HT. I'm going to listen to Horowitz, Barenboim and Yi JOng again to see how their first pages sound like.  Glad you're feeling better. Take it easy until you're really well. There's no hurry.

[ajspiano]

AJ:  I see. But his playing is so strange!

Sound/interpretation is a personal choice, principals of coordinate movement are not - we are all of the same species.

2 performers may look physically different playing the same piece - but they will probably produce different sounds/interpretation. Performers who produce similar sound with visually different movements must still have the same underlying concepts of healthy movement involved in their playing.. The only way around that would be to have been born with a different anatomical structure.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ; Thanks for the explanation.  What is a jailbroken phone, by the way? You mentioned having one. Also, how do you copy and paste the video from your iphone to YouTube?

DT:  What do you mean by octave basso for measures 42-43? You mean, instead of the Ab as listed, Horowitz played the lowest Ab on the keyboard? Similarly, the Db? I couldn't even see how low he went.

[ajspiano]

AJ; Thanks for the explanation.  What is a jailbroken phone, by the way? You mentioned having one. Also, how do you copy and paste the video from your iphone to YouTube?

There is a youtube app for the iphone. You just put in your yt username and password and tell it to upload, it uses the phones 3G connection to the internet.

Jailbroken phone: - iphones are 'jailed' metaphorically speaking -  in that apple has placed A LOT of restrictions on what the phone can do. For instance, you can only play music through the ipod function, and the only way to get music on or off the phone is by using itunes..  Also, you can only install apps for the apple app store...  hm..  you can't access the phones file structure and use the 16gb disk just like a usb stick..

All this annoys me instensely. I own the phone right? I should be able to use it how i want..

jailbreaking is the process of installing a hacked operating system that does not have these restrictions. So my phone can be used as a usb stick, i can play music and videos (and transfer to/from the phone) without having to use the ipod or itunes. I can access the entire file system and change it if I want to..  I basically have the same access to my phone as anyone does to their windows PC. And, the main point - my iphone is completely compatible with a windows PC. where as for anyone else it would be sneakily saying "buy a mac, then i'll work better"

Thankfully its possible to jailbreak...  because if it wasnt I'd have smashed my phone in a fit of rage and hate for the apple corporation by now. Those monopolizing bastards. Its great technology - but if I'm going to pay a bucket of money for it then I should be able to do whatever I want with it, not be faced with what they think i should be allowed to do..

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for the explanation. I just learned a lot about iphones from you. So how did you break the jail, so to speak?    It's great that you can use Windows compatible media like USB bc itunes are sometimes more expensive than tunes you can get elsewhere, like Amazon, for example. Do you have an ipad?

[ajspiano]

you have to download a hacked version of iOS, and a program that installs it on the phone. Aside from that there's a few physical steps like, switch off phone, switch on phone while holding the home button (gets it into the system boot settings)..  when computer program say "bla bla bla" press and hold button for 15 seconds..

That kind of thing..  Its a long time since I did it so I'm probably forgetting a bunch of stuff.

[dire_tonic]

DT:  What do you mean by octave basso for measures 42-43? You mean, instead of the Ab as listed, Horowitz played the lowest Ab on the keyboard? Similarly, the Db? I couldn't even see how low he went.

Yes, Horowitz plays it an octave lower than written (at least, as it's written on my score - don't know if other editions have the lower octave).  Itin plays the written note PLUS the octave lower and rolls it in bar 43 making much more of the climax of the piece without having to belt out too much volume.

Re FI, at the start of each day, 7/8 are a mess no matter how well I played them at the end of the previous day.  Maybe less of a mess as time goes by but I've never been able to play them with any reliability so they get extra practise focus.   When finally I've learnt the whole piece, I think by the time I hit them for the 4th time at 105/106 with a 'performance' hinging on a succesful execution - I'll be too tense and I'll always blow it!

[candlelightpiano]

Re FI, at the start of each day, 7/8 are a mess no matter how well I played them at the end of the previous day.  Maybe less of a mess as time goes by but I've never been able to play them with any reliability so they get extra practise focus.   When finally I've learnt the whole piece, I think by the time I hit them for the 4th time at 105/106 with a 'performance' hinging on a succesful execution - I'll be too tense and I'll always blow it!

7/8 are not my problem measures but I'm only playing at 66. Right now, my biggest problem is the descending arpeggios with crescendo-accelerando just before the middle section. How are you handling this passage?  The descending chromatic run with cresc-acc is not as problematic. Also working RH only for the first 10 measures of last page and trying to play the repeated 16th notes of last 10 measures without 500 stumbles! How are you getting on with those? Of course, also working on octave passages. They're the bane of my existence! At this rate, it will be at least a few more months before I can put the whole piece together, and not at performance level!

As far as Consolation is concerned, I'm having trouble putting the polyrhythm together for measure 22. I'm trying all ways to get it to sound fluid and even but it sounds disjointed. Paul Barton talked about 4 different ways to accomplish this but so far, it's not working for me. How are you doing with it?

[dire_tonic]

In FI, I can play the descending broken chords but not fast enough.  All the other problem areas too I’m sure are common to us all.  Bar 13 on still doesn’t sound right.  When I hear it played well it has a ‘smoothness’ that I’m just not getting.  I’m beginning to wonder if the piano’s to blame, lol!.
Practising the last page, I split it up into 3 sections.
119-122 (2 bars repeated)
123-124 (1 bar repeated)
125-126 (1/2 bar repeated)
I loop these and play enough to give them a good work-out.  I’ll start to join them together when I’ve got a reasonable tempo.

Re Consolation bar 22.  I can’t advise with any authority on how to do this but I’ve noticed it’s rarely played in any of those versions you’ve linked to with any precision; though it’s supposed to be 4 against 3 like FI, it doesn’t come out that way. Instead, the RH is played as a sort of flourish, like bird song.

So I think the trick is to learn to play perfectly the 7 note figure, RH only, so that you can play it without having to think about it. You’ve probably heard it often enough, so you’ll already know how fast it should be.  I think then you’ll be able to add it to the LH by figuring out where in the LH arpeggio you want to start it – that will depend on your tempo, e.g., Yi Jong's overal tempo is quite slow but because he plays the RH figure so fleetly he has to start it quite late in the bar, in fact only just before the final Ab in the LH. The result is his final 6 notes are played almost exactly (but relaxed!) as a RH sextuplet against the final LH triplet in the bar - 2 for 1, that's dead easy!

In any case, however you play it, you should be able to focus on the LH arpeggio, forget about poly-rhythms and just set the bird-song free.

edit: I've just listened again to the other 3 versions. Itin, Yong and Barenboim play it NOTHING like written because they've all chosen a slow tempo.  The little phrase needs to sound fleeting so they've no choice but to bunch it up at the end of the bar, bearing no resemblance to the score.

Only Horowitz plays it 'something like' it's written and that only because he's chosen a much faster tempo.

Clearly, the message here is "do your own thing"!

[candlelightpiano]

DT:  Thanks for taking the time to listen to the others. You're so observant, it amazes me! I'm not at home right now so I'm unable to refer to my score but tonight,I will. I like how you described how Yi Jong plays it. I will have to listen more closely to him and the other two. Paul Barton showed it four ways and none worked for me. I was even wondering if I should play it like FI, you know, just fit the first RH note to the first LH note and allow the other notes to fit in but I'll listen to Ji Yong's version. It sounds like the best way for me. I don't know why I didn't think of listening to the others and just listened to Barton. I guess because his was a tutorial. Have you practiced the whole piece?

FI: Don't have score on me so not sure which measures you're talking about. How about that crazy repeated 16th note groups in the RH that goes on for about 10 measures beginning about mid-page? I just can't seem to play them without stopping all the time. Any method for overcoming it? Bar 13 is a problem too. When the pros play it, it sounds like a cascading waterfall. I can't seem to ever get it. Bar 33-34 still a problem in RH and LH for the second half of 34 (keep missing notes). I think when we complete Consolation, we should return to the FI project and spend a bit of time concentrating on it again. I may have to post my snippets of the piece again before I put it together. You should post your complete piece there sometime when you feel ready. For me, it will be a long time.

[starstruck5]

I learnt the Consolation in Db about 7 years ago -and I'm quite rusty now -but I found it helped to play metronomically when learning the polyrhythms -just making sure the notes which are meant to be on the beat are precise.   As you progress you can bcome more and more bold -the singing melody is what matters most -

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, StarStruck5. So it's pretty much like FI, then but in FI, you play them fast so the fitting in of notes is not as obvious. I used the metronome last night and realized how off my tempo was! Like really off even though I was counting.

[ajspiano]

its another 4 vs 3 right? though theres 2 vs 3 aswell yeh?

You can try "pass the-gol den but-ter" - I wish I could explain that better in writing..  its a 4 vs 3 pattern..

in time with each syllable it goes.. tog, right-left, right, left-right. So the 3 is landing on pass, gol, but..  and the 4 is landing on pass, the, den, ter.

If that makes no sense just reply "make video please"

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:   MAKE VIDEO PLEASE!!  

In FI, you could play it TRLRLRL and I had no problem fitting them in without doing the TRLRLR. It's just bar 22 here where there are 4 into 3 but there's actually 8 into 6 and you have to play it like DT describes it: just set the bird song free. I'm going to re-read DT's post and watch Ji Yong play it many times and see if I get what DT is talking about.

I was kidding about making the video but if you'd like to, it will be fun especially with you saying, "pass the golden butter!"  I'll try that soon and let you know if there was enough for everyone around the table!!     You're hilarious! Just what I needed tonight!

DT:  I watched Yi Jong many times and you're absolutely right. He plays the F just before the Aflat in LH and the remaining 6 notes of RH are played with the remaining 3 in the LH. I'm going to do it his way. It sounds really good, too. You describe it well.   

DT, Have you found a method for overcoming the repeated 16th notes of the RH bars 127-134 of FI? I can't stop stumbling!  AJ, do you have a solution for this?

[ajspiano]

I was kidding about making the video but if you'd like to, it will be fun especially with you saying, "pass the golden butter!"  I'll try that soon and let you know if there was enough for everyone around the table!! 

hahaha yes, well..  I don't typically teach it that way, i just try to get the person to feel the overall rhythm of the left and right combined (da, da-da, da, da-da). So they aren't trying to focus so hard on two isolated tasks. It just teaches you to feel totally comfortable with the 3 vs 4 and have it perfectly timed. The context of this music is no doubt a little rubato..  I should really listen to it again following the score...

pass the golden butter just seemed easier to explain in writing, since it has the natural accent/rhythm required..   one of those little gems I found in a bernhard post..

[candlelightpiano]

DT: Now I'm not even sure that Yi Jong was playing the 4 against 3 polyrhythm as it is printed. It's hard to tell as it's quick at the end. What do you think? It almost sounds like he plays the F of RH just before the D flat of the LH and then the last two notes with the D flat.

Also, I'm now playing bar 22 like Yi Jong does, with the birdsong played with the last 3 notes of the LH. It sounds much freer and quicker.

AJ:  Off topic but can you help us with the repeated 16th notes of RH in FI measures 127 - 134?