Liszt Consolation No. 3 Project

[zoecalgary]

Choo - I'm dying of curiosity as to how your lesson went? Have you had it yet? Let us know what you thought!

[candlelightpiano]

Zoe:  My first lesson went very well and I really like my new teacher. He was very friendly and incredibly thorough and spent the whole hour on Consolation.  I will make a short video tonight to share with you guys what I learned during my lesson as it's hard to describe here. He told me so much and I know I won't remember half of it but the most important thing has to do with the way the LH legatissimo should be played. He said FI middle section should be played the same way. I've never had a teacher like him. He is definitely not the kind of teacher who would sit through a lesson watching a student sight read a piece of music. He wants his students to bring pieces already worked on, maybe not completed, but enough for him to teach the finer details at a lesson. So in a way, he reminds me of Birba!    I'm hoping to spend next lesson on FI. I feel fortunate to have found a teacher like him. I know I'll learn a lot.

For those of you who recognize piano personalities, he gave me his resume (incredibly impressive, debuting with an orchestra at age 9 and performing at Carnegie, Kennedy Center, etc) and it included studying with Heinrich Neuhaus, Phillippe Entremont and Rosina Lhevinne. I have no idea who those people are/ were.

[zoecalgary]

Choo. That sounds awesome! I bet you are so happy! A whole hour on one piece! Excellent!! You must have felt tired afterwards (but in a good way!). I find I have to come home and practice after my lesson because all the 'new' learning is still in my mind. I can't wait to hear more about it through your video. It sounds exactly like what you wanted. I'm thinking I'm going to have to ask my teacher for some changes soon in the way we spend our time to do more like what you will be doing on some new 'challenge' pieces for me.

[ajspiano]

..incredibly thorough and spent the whole hour on Consolation.

Thats excellent - exactly what you need. And exactly what you can't get here, the immediate live feed back and further explanation based on your playing - rather than a generalized how to, and slow going back and forth, as you get from videos here.

Sounds like you made a great decision.

[candlelightpiano]

Yes, he is definitely the kind of teacher I was hoping to find. I really didn't want the kind of teacher I had before who would tell me what to practice, sit through the sight reading with me, etc. This is perfect for me. I'm really pleased!  Video is uploading. May take a while as it got quite long.

[candlelightpiano]

Consolation Lesson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-OZJUfnfcA&feature=player_embedded

Can you guys help me figure out the chords in measures 28 - 40?  Also, can you guys tell me why I'm having so much difficulty with the 16th note polyrhythms in 22 and other similar measures when I have no problem with the ones in FI?  What makes it more difficult here?  DT, do you find it more difficult doing them here than in FI or am I the only one feeling like this?  Any tips, please?

[dire_tonic]

..those chords …

28,29,30  -   C7/F,  Fmi,  C7/F
31,32, -  Fma,  Fma,
33,34,35   -   Ami/E,  Ema,  Ami
36,37,38  -   E7/A (implied),  Ami,  E7/A,  
39,40  -  Ama,   Ama

(the notes after the slash are the LH pedal notes)

 - was this your homework?  I'll have to tell your teacher you've been cheating

That first lesson looks interesting!  Did he play it for you? Yes, the polyrhythm is definitely more difficult in Consolation probably because of the radically different tempos of the two pieces.  In Consolation, the poly is fully exposed so any unevenness would be immediately apparent.  In Fi, you only have to 'squash' the notes in.

I hope the metronome method works for you.  Couldn't you also try the TRLRLR suggested for FI?  Or try what I suggested for Zoe for the 3-2 thing; use your DP to record the LH of bar 22 (do a loop of that bar, repeat it several times), then while playing back the LH recording, try and play the RH over it just to get used to the sound?

I’ve had an idea!  Why don’t you set up a hidden camera during your lessons, then we can all learn together, and of course we could split the cost of the lessons!!  

[danhuyle]

Here's my analysis from bar 28-40

Key modulations
28-30 F minor
31-32 F major
33-37 A minor
38-40 A major
41-44 D flat major

Then from that, you name the chords which dire_tonic has done.
I've also got my own a blog about how to teach yourself piano and I could list it here if anyone wants to visit it. I give you insight on how I learn piano pieces and it's information that I wished my piano teacher had taught me.

I want to make it a valuable resource for anyone learning piano and I need your help with adding stuff to it, otherwise I'm just adding stuff I learn.

I can help with a lot of things and for people to get better results in their piano lessons.

[costicina]

Choo, your teacher gave you a very good advice! When I discovered the circular wrist movement, a new world opened to me... but again I did the wrong thing in the opposite direction: too much wrist, fingers ‘limp’. They, too, must be active, only in a different way from what I was taught to do….
BTW, your baby is a jewel!!!!   

[dire_tonic]

 DanH - you should definitely provide a link to your blog...another teaching/learning resource is always good to have!

[zoecalgary]

Choo I just saw your video. Looks like you got lots of things to work on this week and lots of good advice.  Thanks for sharing it with us. That's neat to spend an hour on one piece. It's like you were in a masterclass I had seen once.

I do know some chords. Mostly ones in some of the major keys. I've been working hard to get away from solid LH chords and get myself moving around the keys though. I think as I learn new chords it does help the LH. And probably if I memorized some if the LH chords for this piece it will allow me to concentrate on the melody.

You're going to be busy this week I can see! I bet you thought of 10 more things he told you after you made the video for us!

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, all of you, for your help with the chords and your feedback on my lesson. I enjoyed sharing what I learned in my lesson with all of you. It's much more fun than not having anyone to share with. You guys rock!!

I don't like the still of the video so I'm changing it to a link, just in case you guys wonder where the still went to. Last night, it was just black and I liked that!

DT:  Thanks for helping me with the chords. No, it wasn't my homework but I sure gave you and Dan some work to do!     My teacher went through them so quickly I couldn't get them fast enough but he said it was important to know them. So I decided to ask you so that I could then take a look and figure them out. Once I do that, I'll try and guess the chords for the other measures and you guys can tell me if I was right.  Your suggestion of playing over the LH recording is a good idea. I'll do that and also try the TRLRLR method, which I haven't tried. Maybe I'll play over the RH recording, too! Once I think I've got it for those four 16th note polys, I'll post a video of just them and you guys can tell me if I got it right. He played parts of the piece for me. I LOVE your idea of the hidden camera and especially sharing in the cost of my lessons!!!  You'll pick up a lot more from my lessons than I do. I listen but don't remember much.    I think I am attention deficit!  When can we see another video? I enjoyed the last one very much!  

DAN: Thanks for giving me the chords for those measures. Please post link to your blog. We can all participate and contribute in whatever way we can.

MARG: Thanks. So far, I like him very much. He's really nice and friendly and I'm not nervous around him, which is very good. He explains very clearly, too, with demonstrations.

ZOE:  Yeah, lots to work on and less freedom now to play this piece the way I want!    But I knew that would probably happen when I decided to have lessons.  Last night, I worked on the LH movement for two pages and I think it sounds better now. I played it HT, too. Then I arrived at measure 22 and got stuck on the 16th note polys. Sometimes I think I have them. Sometimes not. So you see, you're not the only one working on polyrhythms!!  So my immediate plan is to get the 16th note polys, then post a video on all 4 of them for feedback. How about you? How are your polys coming along?

[candlelightpiano]

Dan, why are your modulation keys in:

28 - 30, 33 - 37 and 38 - 40 different than DT's?

And DT, why are yours different than Dan's?

I'll try and figure out the keys in the other measures and post them and you guys can tell me if I was correct and if not, why not and what they are. Got to give you guys some work to do!!    

[zoecalgary]

Choo - my polys are coming along slower now that I'm switching hands. In Littletune's etude it switches in part b and I thought I had them but when I listened more carefully I didn't. I'm just slightly off with my LH. I've been trying to put that all together and I've been playing with AJ's etude too. Some of the chords are too big  and it's tougher in parts so I'm taking that one slower.

Other than that I'm working on putting finer details on the little short pieces I've been working on. It is just apparent to me now how much of a difference in the sound these kinds of things make. I mean, I knew touch, dynamics, etc., made a difference but because I didn't have that much control when I tried it, it seemed like it didn't make a difference. But now that I think I'm getting a bit of control and all these weeks of reminders from my teacher it has started to sink in a bit and I can even hear a bit of a difference when I play. I couldn't before. And I'm starting to get the understanding of changing dynamics within the phrases.

For example, in working through AJ's etude I sound boring and flat. In hearing him play it sounds awesome because he uses different dynamics, touch, etc. I wish I had that much control but I don't yet.

These things you've learned the other day will make a huge difference in your playing I think. So, learn how he wants you to learn and then you will have gained new technique you can apply how you want. So you still get to play how you want just after the technique is learned.

The idea of a hidden camera is funny! Though I must admit it would be fun to watch.

[candlelightpiano]

Yeah, you should also have a hidden camera for your lessons so we can all watch and share in the cost!!!  DT's got such wonderful ideas!  What would this thread be without him?  Very boring, indeed!      Well, whenever you'd like to post your practice, we welcome it and will enjoy your video. I wanted to work on AJ's etude but now have my hands full.  Oh, well ...you and Costanza can work on them and post the video.  I wish I could play like AJ, too.  He can make a phone book sing!

[starstruck5]

Fascinating lesson video Choo!  It sounds as if you have found a really good teacher!

I always find that playing notes which are spread out is easier with flatter fingers -even an ascending arpeggio -a downwards arpeggio is better with a higher wrist though -(thanks to Megadodd for the last bit of info!)

Thanks to Zoe for your kind concern regarding my bicep injury -it is a lot better today -now I will have to see if it re-occurs if I play more slowly -

[candlelightpiano]

I'm concerned about your bicep injury, too, Starstruck. I'm glad it's a lot better. Did rest help it? I wonder if you incurred it moving that piano bench. Anyway, I hope it continues to improve so you can get back to the Appasionata.  Birba was asking you to work on the second movement, right?  That would be nice and I hope you decide to do that. Are you planning to post your video of Consolation?  Thanks for the tip on spread out notes. I'll keep it in mind.

[dire_tonic]

Dan, why are your modulation keys in:

28 - 30, 33 - 37 and 38 - 40 different than DT's?

And DT, why are yours different than Dan's?

I'll try and figure out the keys in the other measures and post them and you guys can tell me if I was correct and if not, why not and what they are. Got to give you guys some work to do!!    It's not my homework but since he talked about the importance of knowing the chord changes, I thought I'd learn to identify them.

As you know, Consolation is in Db but various sections of the piece modulate into different keys before returning to Db at various stages through the piece and of course at the end.  However, any one key can be home to many different chords. To take one example, the bars 28,29 and 30 all belong to the key of Fm (noted by Dan) but within those 3 bars the chords change from C7 to Fmi and back to C7 again (noted by me).
 
Of course I was joking about the cam although you’d have a ready and eager audience here for any such footage!  I would certainly park an mp3 player/recorder somewhere in the room though, just for your own reference and as a means of reviewing the lesson – just in case you forget something.

[ajspiano]

C7 is a chord, not a key.. And it would fit into the key of F minor...

Edit: Let's just forget I said that, and in future I'll read the entire post more carefully.  :/ apologies dt

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for explaining, DT. I have a lot to learn about modulations and such.  Why is it important to know the chords in a piece?  I was thinking of the same thing - having a recorder to record the lesson so I can review it as there's so much said that I forget.

I just noticed that there are more than 1800 views on this topic.  I wonder what the attraction is?  This piece is not The Appasionata and we don't have a Maestro on our thread. Curious .....

[ajspiano]

Why is it important to know the chords in a piece?

Its the underlying harmonic structure -

Take progression  Fm | C7 | Fm

because I understand chords lets say I play only F, Ab, and C (bars 1 and 3), and C, E, G, Bb for bar 2.. and for that I follow some kind of rhythmic pattern and some varied combination of the notes listed... in the melody, I place one of those relevent chord tones on the 1st beat of the bar and whatever in between..  say.. Ab, note note notey notes | E, note note notey notes | C, note note notey notes..

this is kind of whats going on (one aspect simplified) in improvisation/composition - And, it can be applied in reverse, say because I or DT recognise the chords in the consolation we can kind of predict what the harmony and melody notes will be without having to read it.

Additionally, the more familiar you become with chords the more you start to see and know patterns - for example C7 will VERY often be followed by some variant of F.

_______________

further chord/harmony lessons

look at the c scale - C D E F G A B C D E F G etc.

build a chord from the 1st, 4th and 5th scale degrees.
C EG
F AC
G BD

look at those 3 chords carefully - see how every note of the scale has been covered? thus if you have a melody in c major (that doesnt modulate at all) it can be harmonised completely using only these 3 chords. such as, if melody note is D, use the G chord - if melody note is C, use either the C or F chord..  etc. etc.

Anywho - no doubt to much information for you now..

[candlelightpiano]

Ab, note note notey notes | E, note note notey notes | C, note note notey notes..

Thanks, AJ, and I enjoyed the chord/ harmony lesson very much. Please give more lessons. What do you mean by note notey notes?

I can't figure out how DT and Dan recognized that two measures were in the key of A minor when there was nothing to indicate it. I guess you don't have the score of Consolation so you won't be able to help me. 

[ajspiano]

Thanks, AJ, and I enjoyed the chord/ harmony lesson very much. Please give more lessons. What do you mean by note notey notes?

I can't figure out how DT and Dan recognized that two measures were in the key of A minor when there was nothing to indicate it. I guess you don't have the score of Consolation so you won't be able to help me. 

Just an expression of random rhythm/random notes - i mean really it wouldnt be random, but i didnt  think there was a need to confuse the point about chord tones and their significance with more notes..

Which bar is it?.. the a minor one? - i'll look back through the thread i guess..

[ajspiano]

key of A minor when there was nothing to indicate it.

I don't have a printed score no, but I do have a piano street gold membership.

All the flats are naturalised (ha! what a word) leaving an Am chord in bar 33 - there's also a G# (consider the A harmonic minor scale) in the following bar..  the G# disappears later which is where is has modulated again..

the chords in those 4 bars are Am E7 Am E7 - the tonic and dominant chords in the key of A minor - same as Fm and C7 are in F minor.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for explaining and looking up the score on PS, AJ.  I really appreciate it. I knew A minor has a G# and when I didn't see it in those measures, I couldn't figure out how it could be Am.  For example, in 33, the first low note is E. I would have guessed E minor there bc there's no G# but that isn't the case. I'm confused.

Can you please tell me if I'm correct with these chords:

Bar 4: G minor
Bar 5 & 6: D flat major
Bar 9:  G minor
Bar 12:  F minor (but what about the Cb?)
Bar 17:  G minor but how about the second half with the Gb?

Thanks.

[ajspiano]

At first glance..

Bar 4 - Db doesnt fit into G minor. If G is the tonic here then it would be Gø - but is G the tonic? I'd probably argue its modulated to Ab major for this bar and the chord is either Gø or Eb7 - this is probably fairly complicated harmony for you to try and figure out choo..

Bar 5 has settled back into the key of Db - the chord is Ab7 perhaps but since its got that Db underneath it its likely a Dbsus kind of thing resolving to Db in the following bar.. though my jazz ears want to say its got an Ebm9/Ab7/Db progression for bars 5-6 kind of ring to it..   I'm better at picking this stuff at a piano too, rather than looking at a score so I may be missing things..

Trouble is that the harmony isnt straight forward, and many chords are interchangable with each other - there is an overall tonality rather than a specific chord..  which would lead to a discussion of modes and chord substitution.. you're picking a difficult place to start studying harmony in detail

Bar 12 is a diminished chord. F, Ab, B, and D are all freely interchangeable here as the root of the chord.

17 is like a compressed version of bars 4-5, it has 2 chords in the bar..  note the first half is the same pattern as bar 4, the second half is Ab7, similar to bar 5 but theres no sense of "sus" here because we have the Ab in the bass.

Sorry its so complex...

[candlelightpiano]

What's that, AJ? Thanks for explaining. It is complicated! I forgot the Db in bar 4! Thanks for pointing out the similarities between bars 17 and 4 and 5.  I wouldn't have noticed them otherwise.

I wasn't expected to know this complex harmony, thank goodness. I was just trying to see if I could get them right. But I couldn't.    Thanks for your help, though. I appreciate it.

[ajspiano]

"o" is a way of indicating diminished, "ø" is half diminished..  another way of writing it would have been Gm7b5 - which would mean, G, Bb (the minor 3rd), Db (the flat 5th), and F (minor 7th).

Its called half diminished because only the 5th is diminished, where as in the diminished chord (Go or Go7) the 7th would have been 1 half step lower aswell, to Fb (E), which would make it a diminished interval.

You'll have to excuse my forgetfulness that you probably wouldn't have recognized the symbol - in jazz and popular music there are quite a variety of ways to indicate different things 'm' for minor is often "-"..  "major7th" is sometimes notated with a triangle (weird hey?) ..then there's things like 'alt' or 'altered' which means b9#9#11b13 if my memory serves me well..

EDIT:
You wouldnt be expected to be able to understand and do this stuff quickly - its a mountain of info and you start with smaller easier concepts than we are talking about here, and everything you learn you transpose and play in every single key.. ..and you sit there and painstakingly (the first few times) figure out difficult music by ear, then transpose that through all 12 keys...

[costicina]

Choo, your teacher is very good, ssking you to learn harmony. It helps soo much in piano playing!!! And you seems to grasp very quickly the basic concepts (eh eh, the Model student again  ).

Soon you'll be able to compose as well 

[candlelightpiano]

MARG:  You're too funny!  I didn't get the harmony!  I got it all wrong!  I'm no model student. I'm about to give up on Consolation because I can't get the 16th note polyrhythms no matter what I try. I've tried everything but the kitchen sink!  And now that I'm playing my LH differently, I'm going quite a lot faster than before and I'm finding that even the simple 3 in 2 polyrhythms are getting mixed up.    I'm very frustrated. About to give up piano.    Or my teacher.   Or BOTH!!  If I do, I'm also giving up Pianostreet!  

HELP!!!!!  
I need more suggestions for getting the 16th note polyrhythms.  My LH keeps going faster than tempo when I try to make my RH sound like a birdsong. Nothing has worked so far. Even when I was playing Yi Jong's way, I was still planning to play the last 16th note poly in measure 53 because he did it so I MUST get it.  This is what I've tried:

1.  TRLRLRL  This is fine but when I speed up, RH still does not sound like a birdsong
2.  Recording the LH and playing back, then playing the RH over it.  Worked fine except when I    played HT again.  LH goes faster.
3.  Paul Barton's method.
4.  My teacher's method:  cycling LH at tempo, then RH at tempo, then HT.  

I appreciate all assistance and thank you in advance!

[danhuyle]

My blog site is  "pianosuccesswithdan.com"  I want it to be a valuable resource for any aspiring pianists willing to teach themselves how to play their favorite piano pieces. On top of that, you can use it to reinforce material you learned in piano lessons.

On the right, you'll see a video of me playing Chopin Etude Op25 No11.

Want better results in your piano lessons? Learn from my costly mistakes and know exactly how to avoid them.

I used to come to lessons, as soon as I figure how to play the notes of a piece, I'd get my teacher to teach another since I had a lot of trouble with learning the technical aspects of pieces. I soon realized that I was using piano lessons "THE WRONG WAY" after I was able to teach myself how to get through the technical obstacles of Liszt Chasse Neige.

To get the best results from piano lessons is primarily focusing on interpretation, like a piano masterclass.

When I was teaching myself Chopin Etude Op10/12, I was able to identify scales and chords to help learn it.

I first noticing harmony in music when I was practicing Chopin Scherzo 4. That's how I started learning it. I remember when I first started memorizing Chopin Scherzo 2. I was memorizing note after note, unaware of the harmony and key modulations.

It wasn't until I was learning Chopin Fantasie Op49 that I needed to use key modulations as analysis of chords wasn't enough to learn it.  

How I'm able to learn Liszt Consolation 3 quickly is from what I learned from the pieces above.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Dan. I'll look into your blog in the morning as it's past midnight here. But I still need help getting the 16th note polyrhythm for Consolation. I've listed all unsuccessful methods in my post just before yours. I don't have trouble with polys for Fantasie Impromptu but I can't seem to get them for the 16th note 4 in 3 polys for Consolation. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

[dire_tonic]

Choo, you’re getting some very comprehensive and sound tutoring from AJ on harmony and chord structures but IMHO I really don’t believe at this stage it’s the right thing for you to be preoccupied by (AJ, I think you’ve already alluded to the difficulties?). I'd be inclined to gently ease your teacher away from this strategy, all the more since you’ve been managing very well to commit these pieces to memory without the help of understanding the concepts of harmony. I’d hate to see you fall out with your teacher after the first lesson, and it’s also possible that to ignore harmony at this stage would be ill-advised but memorizing and the means we adopt to achieve feats of memory are a complex affair so what works for one won’t always work for another.  My own background (after my formal learning phase) has been entirely jazz/pop/R&B so chords have become a vital part of my means of musical navigation but this isn’t the only way and you seem to have another quite different modus operandi which works well for you.

You should study harmony but, unless it comes easily to you, this should be at a pace which suits you and as an adjunct to your musical education rather than as a means to an end, as an aide-memoire.  As I say, this is all IMHO.

You could try this for the 4-3 problem.
Start off by taking on half of the challenge. Do a recording on your DP, looping (for as long as you can tolerate) only the 3rd and 4th beats (i.e. last half) of the LH of bar 22 at your chosen tempo. Then practice fitting only the first 5 notes (PLAY the first note) of the RH birdsong so that the final note you play (Ab of the cycle Db,F,Db,Bb,Ab) syncs up with one of the repeated Ab notes of the LH. Play a beat and rest a beat, i.e. just leave the 2nd half of the birdsong blank.  Once you’ve got it off pat try and do the same thing HT without the recording.  If that works then go back to the recording procedure, same idea, but now with beats 3 and 4 of the RH in their entirety with the full RH phrase (as before, play the first and final note). Play a cycle and rest a cycle (while LH continues under). Finally, do this last exercise while omitting the first RH note so you’re playing the phrase as written.  At this stage, don’t worry about the free ‘birdsong’ quality you’re trying to achieve. Just get it tight and accurate.  Once you’ve got that, you can work on freeing it up.

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you,DT, for your advice and suggestions. My teacher hasn't forced me to learn harmony at all.  He rattled off the chords in the LH without asking me what they were, knowing I had no clue, anyway. He said it was alright that I couldn't identify them but it was important to know that they were there (for what reason, I cannot remember).  I just wanted to see if I could identify them the way you and Dan did. 

I'm able to fit the 4 in 3 and do the complete "birdsong" but can't get it to sound free.  That's what I'm trying to achieve and that's what's frustrating me. But I'll try doing it the way you suggested (half of it first before doing all of it) and see if that helps.  Is that what you did?  How did you do it?  Did you have any problems at all? 

The other problem I'm having is that now that I'm playing the LH in a sort of gliding fashion, it's become quite a lot faster than before and I'm unable to get the RH to fit in as well as I used to so the whole piece is a big mess.  But I suppose that's part of the learning process when we make a lot of changes to things.  It's like having major construction on your house and everything is topsy turvy for a while but hopefully not forever.  But I'm very frustrated.

[zoecalgary]

Hi Choo, I'm guessing what's happening is information overload. In my half hour lesson I get a few tips per piece and it's enough 'homework' for me to focus on for the next week.  She could probably give me more in each lesson but I also think I would quickly feel like "what? didn't I get any of this right?" or it would put the whole piece into chaos. But that's not the case it's just a matter of continually building and refining what you have already learned. And I can well imagine how many tips you got in spending an hour on this piece at your lesson!

Maybe just take one or two things and focus on just those things for a bit. I felt the same way with the polys. I could tell I was getting close but I had to step away for them to click the next day. (well I'm still working on them but that is a different story!)  You are too hard on yourself but I can understand why. You are so driven to learn and understand things (I'm the same in many ways!). And that's a good thing, but it also pays off for us to take a step back too and just focus one thing and not try to do it all together (even if we can).

AJ and DT - I enjoyed the theory lessons too. Interesting hearing the 'mechanics' about how the piece modulates. I mean we can all hear that as the piece is played but knowing the building blocks behind it is fascinating. Unfortunately most of it is also way above my head right now but interesting nonetheless.

DanH - I'm going to check out your website. Thanks for posting it. I look forward to reading it.

AJ and DT - I'm still working those polys and trying to smooth out RH3 vs LH2.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Zoe, for your advice.  I'll bear it in mind.  I think, in my case, it's not really information overload even though he talked about a lot of stuff. He talked about Liszt, too, and the pianos of those days compared to what we have today and then uprights vs grands for the sostenuto pedals.  I think it's just playing it a different way, the LH gliding action, for example.  It's got me out of kilter!!  Now I even have problems with the 3 vs 2 polys!!  Can't even get past page one now without referring to score!  So depressing! The 4 vs 3 polys are coming together, I think. At least, sometimes they are. Sometimes not.  I haven't tried DT's half bar suggestion yet but plan to do that soon if they still don't sound right.  

I just ordered a workbook on harmony/ chords that will take me from beginning to advanced so that will help refresh my memory and get me going forward.  

DAN:  Cool website!  Nice photo of you, too!!  I'll look into it further ...

[costicina]

Choo, I'd like so much to help you with polyrhythm!! But why Listz is problematic for you, and FI not? The principle is the same. When I teached it to Costanza for Debussy Arabesque (4 against 3), she grasped it immediatly when I  ask her to play slow HT the firts couple of aprs, then increasing the speed. What helped her, I suppose was thinking where LH fit in the RH scheme, as two note in succession, but one played by RH, the other by LH....
  Mmmm...I think I'm only confusing you, sorry.

Sometimes it'd just matter of time; you have struggled for days to do something, then, all of a sudden, almost mysteriously, something 'click', the difficult has melted away, and you can do effortless what you found impossibile before, and you wonder why the hell you couldn't before....
I'm waiting for this blessed moment with my diabolic Prokofiev section .. 

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, Marg!  The blessed moment for your diabolical Prokofiev  WILL come!      I'm sure it will come! 

The polyrhythm (I can never spell it correctly) for Consolation is harder to do than for FI because it's slower so you can hear every note not fitting in.  In FI, you can squash them in and it sounds fine.  BUT I think I'm getting it.  This afternoon, I recorded it on my digital and when I played it back, it sounded much better so tonight, I hope to record a video for the birdsong polyrhythms.  I hope everyone will tell me I got it!!      I've been working on it for two days so it's about time I got it! 

[danhuyle]

Tips to learn the polyrhythm in Consolation 3.

The one that comes on the 3rd and 4th beat of bar 22, 26, 51, 53.

Where the beats fall
Bar 22 - Ab
Bar 26 - C
Bar 51 - Cb
Bar 53 - Gb

I accent where the beat falls to develop the sense of rhythm, then get out of it after I can feel the beat.

What the polyrhythm in Consolation 3 have in common is that they start of as tied notes; read the music and you'll see what I mean.

Here's a cross-rhythm rule that I know of.

When you're playing 5 against 6, 2 against 3, 4 against 5, and 3 against 4, you play 2 notes, in it's one note following the next until the beat finishes.

In the case of consolation 3, it's 4 against 3. After you play the first note of the triplet, it's one note following the next. When you reach the 4th beat, the right hand plays 2 notes, then it's one note follow the next.

If you want me to do a video to explain it, I can do that to clarify what I'm saying.

[ajspiano]

@zoe/marg

Here's an updated score...

[zoecalgary]

AJ thanks so much for this! I'll be spending more time on it this weekend. I've been diligently doing my other stuff that I was assigned this week so I feel like I can put some time to this now. 

- Zoe

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks so much, Dan, for explaining all the types of polyrhythms and how they should be practiced and played. I'm posting a video here of the birdsong 4 in 3 polyrhythms that I worked on for bars 22 and 26.  I hope I got the poly done right.  If not, it would be very helpful if you could make a video to explain what you were talking about.

POLYRHYTHM PRACTICE FOR BARS 22 AND 26
What fingering are you guys using for the LH of bar 26? I'm using the 3rd finger on C even though it's quite a stretch but using 4 is an even bigger stretch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYV_Uyz_R2Q&feature=youtu.be



CONSOLATION 1 - PRACTICE VIDEO
This is probably going to be the messiest video I've ever posted!!  Don't even listen to the pedaling because I wasn't concentrating on it. I was focused on getting the RH melody to fit correctly with the LH notes because this gliding action of the LH with no accents is making it difficult for me to fit the RH with the LH.  I was also concentrating on the polyrhythms.  And I was playing from memory.  Well, anyway, I welcome your feedback and thank you for bearing with me!  I'm going to try and post a video every night so that you can have lots to talk and laugh about! Or I might just end up irritating you guys and you will just decide not to watch anymore!  Oh, well ...I'll take the risk!!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YCG2BC44M&feature=youtu.be

[ajspiano]

My theory re why FI is easier would be because the 4 vs 3 is consistent and everywhere - in the consolation you are suddenly hit with it..  along with the fact that its slow and demands a very sensitive touch and sense of rhythm...

I'm not going to go into explaining how to do it as you seem to have heaps of practice ideas as it is..

However, here's some notes to play as an exercise.. tis only 13 bars long, but has come out as a fairly pretty little piece - maybe I'll make something more of it one day??  Its another jump in difficulty as now there is more movement in the LH, and because it has both 2 vs 3 and 3 vs 4.

My playing is a little dodgy as I havent got it into memory yet (i'm stretching and twisting in a few places and shouldn't be, and the whole piece could be a bit more fluent) -  I was aiming to create something that would require the poly's and require a very sensitive touch, more so than the first etude.

Once again - I really don't care if anyone plays it, or if anyone wants to change it..

score is attached.

[candlelightpiano]

Thank you so much for the video and composition, AJ!  You're becoming our forum composer!!  You played it so beautifully. As you always do.  I printed it out and I'll work on it. It's good practice for me.  If I can get it together, I'll post a video.

What do you think of my polyrhythms, though, in my video?  Do you think I got it?  And what fingering would you suggest for bar 26 LH in Consolation?  Did you watch my videos?  Would appreciate your feedback. 

[ajspiano]

Thank you so much for the video and composition, AJ!  You're becoming our forum composer!!  You played it so beautifully. As you always do.  I printed it out and I'll work on it. It's good practice for me.  If I can get it together, I'll post a video.

What do you think of my polyrhythms, though, in my video?  Do you think I got it?  And what fingering would you suggest for bar 26 LH in Consolation?  Did you watch my videos?  Would appreciate your feedback. 

Clearly been in a creative mood lately - I'm kinda of halfway through creating some kind of compositional response to challenges from several chopin etudes all rolled together. That one is taking me a while because I can't play it very well yet

I haven't watched your videos yet, soon though, I am intrigued to see your progress.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks, AJ!  What Chopin etude composition are you talking about? Obviously something on this forum?  I may make another practice video tonight even though no one has watched my last night's videos. That is probably just as well as they were such a mess!  The forum has been really quiet today.  I'm still working on my polyrhythms.  Your 4 in 3 etude is still easier to do than the Consolation 4 in 3 polys.  I don't know why I find them so difficult.  Anyway, I'll practice now and I may make another video of all 4 the polyrhythm sets. 

[ajspiano]

Taking a closer look I think the consolation is harder because the direction is changing with every note in both hands, and because you have to cover distances - as in the hands change position throughout the 3 vs 4 passage.

[ajspiano]

Here - is this harder?

[candlelightpiano]

You're too funny, AJ!!  YES!! The new composition looks much harder!!  I'll work on it and get back to you.  With Consolation, the 16th note polyrhtym in 22, 26 etc is much harder than any in FI.  You're right about the change in direction in both hands and you have to cover quite a large distance.  I've been trying to upload a video to YouTube all night. Once after upload, it said it had been deleted by user (?!) and the second time, it said it had been uploaded before!  I don't know what's going on.  Trying for the third time...so frustrating!  I wonder if anyone else is having problems with YouTube tonight.  Anyway, regarding the 4 in 3 polys in Consolation, I find that I can do it with the metronome and it's harder without.  And if I count the LH and accent the beat, it helps.  Anyway, still hoping to upload video.

How long does it take you to make these compositions? You're amazingly talented!

Thanks once again. I'll go take a look at my challenge etude now.

[zoecalgary]

Hi everybody. Phew I've had a busy day! I just get to relax now at 11 pm from 7 am!  I had zero piano time today and I missed it! And, I had only a few minutes of forum time too! Its been a bit quiet here but I still need to catch up.

 Choo I'm interested to hear your videos and I will be listening as soon as I grab some tea!

AJ - you are on a composing streak! That is so Awesome! Helping so many of us out like this.  

DanH - I looked at some of your videos. Very interesting. Ill have to go watch some more. Thanks.