World's hardest piece?

[Rachmanoinoff]

Yepp, that's right... the big question- what piece do you guys think is the most challenging/difficult to play in the entire piano litterature?  (And please refrain from saying things like the Rach 3)

Perhaps one of the Brahms concerti??

Regards,
Martin

[tosca1]

I would suggest "Islamey" by Balakirev.  It can be described as an Oriental fantasy for piano and is of consummate style and brilliance.  Some pianists have described it as being the hardest piece ever written for the piano.

[SteveK]

The most challenging piece for me is Ravel's "Scarbo"!!!  And another one is Liszt's "Campanella"! Actually there are so many pieces that are challenging in their own ways!! It's because it requires a lot of preparation without any stiffness on your arms!!!

[Aaron_Sarnat]

Rhapsody in Blue?  I have no idea, just a guess.

[BVB]

Trois Mouvements de "Petrouchka" by I.Stravinsky

[Le-ackt]

To me , every virtuoso has/had come up with pieces that excellent their techniques , so ..... this question doesnt really have an answer , kinda like asking who is the prettiest woman , But to me seems many concertos are often equipped with deepest techniques commands which their composer tried to juice every single drop of their virtuoso inside .
Hey , my chopin etudes are pretty damn hard to me .

[gsanders]

The most uncomfortable piece I have ever encountered is the Henselt Piano Concerto in F minor.  How Rosina Lhevinne ever played that work with her very small hands, I will never know.   It's a really good work with memorable tunes but the stretches are murder and you fly through the work by the seat of your pants.  Much more difficult than the Rach 3.  AND, have you ever looked at any works by Sorabji?  Geez, what was he thinking?

[ted]

I think that the piano music of Charles Ives is much more difficult than things such as Islamey. The old piano music might be physically strenuous but it was written with a pianist's hands in mind; the figures have some sort of physical and musical homogeneity even if they are difficult. With somebody such as Ives, the music is written for the sound (itself highly idiosyncratic and difficult to master musically) and the hands must jump all over the place very rapidly in all sorts of unorthodox positions.

[mahavishnu]

Hehe....I definitely agree with Steve K.  Scarbo is very difficult.  I am learning it and have only a month left to master it    Actually Ravel told his disciple Maurice Delage that he implicitly had the intention of making the Gaspard de la Nuit much harder than Balakirev's Islamey.  

I have never heard of the Henselt I am going to check it out

[rachfan]

Anton Rubinstein believed that the most difficult pieces were the seemingly simplest Songs without Words by Mendelssohn.  

[Rachmanoinoff]

Lol; some of the pieces you put are pretty funny, like Balakirev's Islamey.  I can't help but laugh when I hear that piece, I don't know why.

How 'bout Beethoven's emperor?

[frederic]

Islamey is SO cool!!!

For those of you who haven't heard it i strongly recommend it!

Hey, is it really that hard?

OH. what about the chopin concerti?

[tosca1]

So far there has been much discussion about the most technically difficult, virtuosic music  and apart from Rachfan,  no mention of the what is musically the most difficult to play. Many pianists who can rattle off Liszt's Mephisto Waltz  can sound crudely amateur in a seemingly simple Mozart slow movement.  When there are fewer notes the pianist is ruthlessly exposed and any deficiencies and inadequacies in the musical imagination and intelligence become apparent.
I regard Mozart as the most difficult composer to play beautifully on the piano.

[sary2106]

I agree with Robert. Mozart is so very difficult.

I also think that some of the hardest pieces are the ones that are "competition music" but still overplayed. Like the Rachmaninoff 2nd and 3rd concertos, the Tchaikovsky 1st concerto... They are hard - not because of the notes - but because you are expected to play the piece better than, say, Martha Argerich or someone else who is legendary! Either you play the concerto fantastically and win the competition or you play it okay and everyone says you are immature and need to learn a lot!

But I still say that Mozart is one of the most difficult composers to play really really well.

Sarah

[Le-ackt]

Paganini 24 Caprices

[ludwig]

Yeah, I agree with what tosca1 said as well. There are many types of "difficulty" that makes the "most difficult piece" impossible to identify. There is technically challenging and musically challenging. As well as for each indivisual reasons. Short fingers? Small hands? Personality could even affect what a performer determines as "difficult" music. I myself have found Baroque music and Classical chamber music to be rather difficult to play, because of its musical elements and intepretation of style, and also coordination problems. However I also find Lizst, Brahms and Chopin's more technically challenging pieces, well, challenging. But then Beethoven's pieces are always not that easy to play, to acheive the musical elements and styles and effects that he intended for, since he was a perfectionist and someone who works very much on details of a piece of music. Therefor I conclude that it is really difficult to determine in general what is the most difficult piece to play, also I conclude that I blab way too much. Thankyou.

Ludwig

[willcowskitz]

What about Beethoven's Hammerklavier?

Horowitz once said to some pianist whose name I can't remember,after hearing his recital of Hammerklavier, that he played it too quickly.
The pianist - somehow missing the point of Horowitz - replied: "I can play it even quicker."

The point being: the audience wasn't given a chance to understand the composition itself, but instead the whole recital was more or less a circus of the performer.

Isn't this more or less where the world has come to?

[Colette]

I think what is particularly challenging is mastering a correct style of playing for each period of music. Baroque, classical, romantic, modern compositions all demand particular sonorities and vast techniques. I find it truely amazing when I hear a pianist play, for exampe, a Bach Prelude and Fugue with perfect restraint and elegance, and then switch gears and delve into a Beethoven sonata with an entirely different mastery of the era.
I find Bach and Beethoven to be very difficult. Bach requires such clarity, and an entire orchestra has to be translated throught the piano for Beethoven.

[e60m5]

The Islamey is a very hard piece, and very strenuous to play. I performed the Islamey last Saturday as a finale for my recital - it's definitely hard to perform, especially at the end of a demanding program.

However, if you have strong wrists and exceptional octave technique, the piece is not very hard to just "play". The true difficulty lies in making the piece sound easy - and not like a million notes all jumbled together.

Well, I have to dash now, but if anyone is interested in the piece, I'd be happy to share any knowlege I have with them - it's a great piece.

Highly recommend it.

[frederic]

Brahm's Paganini Variations

[Remon]

For me, Bach is one of the most difficult composers, because you can't hide any musical or technical irregularities by using much pedal or technical bravoura, and because there are a lot of things in this music that are very difficult to interpret.

If you're looking for technically challenging stuff, you should try to listen and play some Cziffra-transcriptions...! Man, these pieces are UNplayable!

Hmm anyway I'm sure there isn't one single piece of which every pianist says it is the "world's hardest piece", because everyone has his own "weaknesses" and every piece has its own difficulties.  

[willster]

people seem to be forgetting prokovieffs 2nd piano concerto - v tough!

[rach17]

What about the Barber concerto?  As for the "hardest piece", I think it is totally dependent on each of our natural technical and emotional tendencies.  I had a lot harder of a time learning the Moonlight Sonata for a concerto than I did learning the Rach 2nd concerto.  Something about the Rach 2nd just made it easier to play, and in a month I was playing it like an old piece I had known a while.  

Beethoven, on the other hand.....

[willcowskitz]

Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum  

[Snuffel]

This is a rather personal thing depending on your own stengths and weaknesses.
For sustained physical effort: the Schumann and Prokofiev toccatas, and Stravinsky's Russian Dance from Petrouska are very challenging.
For sustained concentration: the Hammerklavier and Goldberg variations.
For pure fingerwork: Scarbo, some of Alkan etudes etc.

Personally anything with double notes gives me trouble.

I also find some (slowish) pieces very difficult to start. For some time I found myself almost paralysed at the start of the Schubert D960 sonata (a bit like a golfer with the yips) although I eventually discovered a trick to get over it. I've read that Serkin had a similar problem starting the Beethoven G major concerto so at least I'm in good company!

[frederic]

Actually some of the easier pieces give me a really hard time. For example the Chopin E minor waltz. Gee, that was probably the most challenging piece i've come across. But i don't really have too much difficulty with chopin's 3rd sonata...
And i think this also depends on how you practice. Because if you don't be careful when you pracitce , its a lot harder than it should be.

[frederic]

things like 'To a wild rose' can look very easy but is actually very difficult.
Im not saying this is the hardest piece in the world but its just quite interesting that pieces like this can really reveal ones weakness.

[jlh]

Lots of good suggestions.  

As far as the most difficult solo piece I've played, I'd have to say the Prokofieff Toccata Op. 11, something I'm playing again next week for a competition.   That piece is short, but very demanding of any pianist.  

However, for concerti I've played, I'd say Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto.  I have not played the 3rd, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 2nd proves to be just as technically demanding as it is.

As was said before, it depends on what a pianist's personal strengths are.  Bach can be very challenging, especially if all you ever play is modern works.  The Schubert Sonata in A is very difficult as well as, say Brahms' 3rd sonata.

Another one that could be considered is Mussorgsky's "pictures at an exhibition", which has many challenging and demanding sections.

[e60m5]

I was thinking about this again today...

I've played some of the monsters of piano pieces, Islamey "et al", and the more I think about it, the Rachmaninov Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini is much more difficult than most people realise. All the different variations, each with its own technical difficulties and subtle nuances that one must prep himself for mentally and physically... and some of those variations are seriously evil, too...

Great piece, I love playing it, but it's seriously more evil than a lot of people realise.

Love it though

[tremendousOt]

Opus Clavicembalisticum!!??!! No way, check out the Opus Archimagicum, the Tantrik Symphony or the Sequentia Cyclica super Dies Irae-- ridiculously long and complicated stuff; I don't think anything else comes even close, but perhaps you guys were were looking for the most difficult piano piece within the realm of possibilty, so these probably don't count.

[frederic]

I thought Horowitz said to Simon Barere that he played the Schumann Toccata too fast. And Simon Barere said he can even play it faster.

Yes, The Schumann Toccata is very difficult.

[willcowskitz]

I'm pretty sure it was Hammerklavier of Beethoven. What I don't know is the number of similar speedy gonzales tube brains in the world.  

[e60m5]

Heh, the Hammerklavier... monster of a piece, that one. Great piece, never played it though - I intend to at some point.

That being said, it isn't my favourite Beethoven Sonata... that probably goes to either the Op.53 (Waldstein), Op.57 (Appassionata), or the Op.28 (Pastorale)... ahh! Too many of them are so great! Yeah, I really feel I should add more to that list but blah. Only so many I can choose.

[frederic]

everyone somehow thinks hammerklavier is very difficult... its maybe just the beginning that makes everyone think that.
two other extremely difficult beethoven sonatas are les adieu and appassionata

[willcowskitz]

I've read through the note of the Hammerklavier page by page and its not the beginning that makes it difficult.

[e60m5]

I'm not really in accordance with the people that think the Op.57 Appassionata is difficult - in my opinion, it's not that technically challenging; sure, in the first movement, the repeated notes and the clarity and evenness required are somewhat challenging, and the third movement of course requires good synchronisation between the hands - but there aren't any real areas which jump out to me as fiendishly difficult.

However, I haven't played the Hammerklavier - it is by word of mouth that I stated it was a monster; if it's not that hard, then I'm not one to say whether it is... heh, probably should have made that more clear in my previous post above.

[amee]

What about Brahm's piano concerto op 83 in B flat major?  I read it is "considered to be one of the most difficult pieces in the tradition of Classical-Romantic".

[frederic]

yep, both brahms are huge.

Liszt and Chopin etudes are finger twisters. but i think the chopin etudes are much harder, Every note needs to be heard.

Henselt concerto as said earlier on. I heard it recently. Doesn't sound too diffult because the soloist was trying his best to make it sound easy. Gee, what a big one. Whos learnt it?

[gsanders]

Regarding who has performed the Henselt, Michael Ponti, Raymond Lewenthal, and Marc Andre-Hamelin have all recorded it.   Don't bother with the Ponti recording.  He's a champion of obscure music but his playing lacks any color and sensitivity.  Lewenthal does a decent job and of course Marc Andre-Hamelin's version is note perfect and technically brilliant.  

The Henselt doesn't sound difficult but read through the score sometime and you will see why this work is considered so extremely difficult.  Those fast passages with widespread hands are so difficult that Anton Rubinstein said it was impossible.  When I'm discussing this work, I am only talking about how technically difficult it is.  

[amee]

But then again, Arthur Rubinstein never strived to build up his technique until he saw Horowitz in London.

[tremendousOt]

Uhhh... gsanders was referring to Anton Rubinstein, not Arthur, there's quite a difference

[frederic]

Yep, thats right. I thought there was something strange...
Anton Rubinstein and Arthur Rubinstein are two competely different people!

Anton was a russian pianist and composer. He was one of the greatest piansts of all and founded the st petersburg conservatory. Also he was an important teacher. He was born in 1829, two years after Beethoven's death.

Arthur Rubintein was a polish pianist of world fame. He was a happy chap and once said he was the luckiest man. This is who you were talking about amee.
But he was born is 1887.

But one thing im not sure about: why do both of them have the same name when they are two different nationality?  

[frederic]

Oh, and didn't many people say Anton Rubinstein looked very much like Beethoven or something?
And some even said he was related to him...

[amee]

Oops, sorry about that.
I thought gsanders said Arthur.

[amee]

About Brahm's piano concerto op 73,

Apparently after he finished it, he wrote a letter stating
"I have just finished a tiny, tiny piano concerto with a tiny, tiny wisp of a scherzo".

I found that quite interesting.

[ciocia_fifi]

well, it all really depends on your individual features i guess...
2 me, the most difficult music is that , which doesnt involve generally the physical effort ( brahms, liszt, or your beloved islamey ), but also some very deep psychological values. that would be kreisleriana, polonaise fantaisie by chopin, or beeth op 110 sonata. those r the pieces i ve aldy worked and which took me  lot of health...mental health as well... its hard 2 escape from them, and their so deep, u can go crazy while penetrating them!:)
generally, eth is hard, if u want 2 make it perfect, and u r some maniac like i-just-want-it-2-sound-like-my-heart-says!!! just like me:)
ps. i dont like islamey..

[frederic]

Bartok's 3 concertos

[Frizzler]

To me, the hardest pieces are two-fold.  The hardest technically I would say are Liszt's.  They require great technique and an open mind.  And very fast hands.  I played La Campanella, and during rehersal, tore a tendon in my hand (which led me to work on my technique!).

On the other hand, i think that there is the interpretive stance.  The hardest pieces to play well, to me, are Chopin.  He music is so beautiful and intense, and technical, that it is hard to play it too fast or to try to show off.  With Chopin, it's easy to want to show off, but it's dangerous because it's the very thing it's not intended for.  So, his music is hard to play well.

[Rachmanoinoff]

Wow!

Thanks everyone for all your replies!  Better start practicing if I want to learn all of these!!

[Rachmanoinoff]

BTW, nobody mentioned Busoni's conerto.  I've heard that's a tough one!!!