Opinions on the Hardest piano piece ever written

[Skeptopotamus]

oh yeah then take this



only human

ahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is that?

[pita bread]

what is that?

á la Roboto

[synthesist]

[anda]

i bet i can sight-read this in tempo with my eyes closed, and you'd have a hard time ointing out my mistakes precisely

[ramseytheii]

These scores are very handsome, and are almost works of art in themselves.  They remind me of a distant, distant memory, when I was in music history class.  The memory is vague so please bear with me.  I seem to remember we were discussing music, either pre-Renaissance, or from the Renaissance.  These scores recall the Augenmusik that was being produced at this time, music more for the eye than the ear.  I remember one motet written and printed in the shape of a heart.  Of course they had a much different conception of complication and beauty back then. 
Interestingly it also brings to mind the pianist Murray Perahia, who said about the music of Schoenberg, "It's music for the eye, not the ear."
I have no doubt that many people enjoy listening to this sort of thing, but definitely I would rather look at it any day, then hear it.

Walter Ramsey

[presto agitato]

To put it simple:


The most difficult piece (musically and terchnically) has to
be Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" Sonata period.

[Skeptopotamus]

Schonberg pieces arent meant to be played.  They aren't even music.  If you take a look at them they are jokes.  They say things like "go get a drink of coffee".


Hammerklavier....... Hammerklavier is nothing compared to the other pieces mentioned here.

[jehangircama]

aren't any of the concertos, say the Liszt or Tchiakowsky concertos more difficult

[musicsdarkangel]

I would still put the Hammerklavier's difficulty under concertos such as the Rach 3, Prok 2-3, Bartok 2-3 etc.

[goansongo]

That Tango piece sounds like a piece of poo.  And so does that piece by Finnissy. 

[Dazzer]

2nded whole heartedly

[allthumbs]

Greetings

There's also Finnissy, his music is just unplayable.  His English country tunes have been recorded by himself.  The difficulty of his music is beyond anything I've ever seen before.  Take a look at two pages of his 'English country Tunes':


I must be getting old.    I hated that piece of cacophony!!!

Cheers

[Etude]

well you don't have to like it, but try.   
You just shouldn't expect to hear 'normal' sounds when you listen to avant-garde music, because you'll be in for a shock if you do.

[i_m_robot]

avante garde not = normal

that why it is called avante garde

[Skeptopotamus]

I would still put the Hammerklavier's difficulty under concertos such as the Rach 3, Prok 2-3, Bartok 2-3 etc.

i'll agree with that.

[Etude]

I also agree.

[jeremyjchilds]

Fantasie impromptu is by far the hardest song in the world. It's this song by chopin and the notes are sooooo fast.



















....Just kidding... Iwas waiting for someone to say something like that and I had to indulge myself

[steinwayguy]

Fantasie impromptu is by far the hardest song in the world. It's this song by chopin and the notes are sooooo fast.



















....Just kidding... Iwas waiting for someone to say something like that and I had to indulge myself

omg u wer kidding? that is liek fer reel.

[lostinidlewonder]

From what ive tried so far on the piano, and I havent really been that explorative of the insane 21st century piano music that exists, I reckon Sorabji wins it hands down for difficulty. You just have to think totally split and have fantastic ears to understand the simultaneous sound and dimension of his compositions.

[pita bread]

There's difficult, then there's George Flynn's Trinity.

[stevie]

the hardest pieces i consider worth playing are those by Alkan and Godowsky.

in particular the former's concerto for solo piano and op76 etudes, and the latter's reworkings of the chopin etudes and passacaglia on a theme of schubert.

i feel this is a more valid debate, because in order to tackle something of extreme difficulty, it has to be worth the effort.

[llamaman]

Harold Schonberg obviously never encountered Sorabji's 100 Transcendental Etudes then

Anyways, Merry Christmas

Errmmm......No. That seems really fake. There tons of messages like: "Slippery when wet", and "If you can't play this go cry to your mommy"

[pita bread]

You realize that was a joke right?

[llamaman]

Part of me did 

[pita bread]

Aww, don't cry! I didn't mean to be mean, sorry if I was.

[jehangircama]

OK I must be very ignorant, but can someone tell me about this Sorabji chap. What music he wrote, which period, etc.. I've never heard of him before...

[toymaker]

My first post guys, + 1 short comment: I realize that this is a piano forum, and not necessarily a classical music approached piano forum. That's why I don't cut my wrists with this Finnissy - Xenakis neoclassical-contemporary bullcrap appearing in this thread as most difficult pieces. It is a different thing to create music having music in mind, and another to create music having mathematics - architecture - not getting any - last night busted condom incident - etc.etc. stuff in mind. Anybody with basic music theory knowledge can create literally unplayable "things" (NOT music) that don't make sense. I once heard a guy performing by pushing down the right pedal, and throwing table tennis balls in the grand piano...what a crock of...........

My contribution to the hardest piano piece ever written: Maurice Ravel, Scarbo. He himself said that his aim was to surpass Balakirev's "Islamey" in terms of technical difficulty. So there.
This piece's most demonic performance I've heard so far is by Dimitris Sgouros. This guy is in great need of an exorcism. You can listen to it here: www.soundclick.com/bands/5/dimitrissgourospianist_music.htm (the site is temporarily down, hope it is up again soon).

And something else: That John Stump guy is HILARIOUS! I actually found a second piece of his: "Prelude and the Last Hope in C and C# minor". I read it bar by bar and I had tears from laughing...knock yourself out!

[perfect_pitch]

We were supposed to be looking for the hardest piece of music, not a whole bunch of crap thrown together by Finnissy, or incredibly stupid notation as Stump... I mean - If Stump is mean't to be a joke... then I take back my statement.... but If people really take this as a serious piece of music... Then there's something wrong with them.

According to most pianists, the hardest piece to play is the rach 3, because it is so highly judged and criticised to absolute perfection. It is also one of the finest achievements to be able to play the piece. If a student came up to you and said they could professionally play Rachmaninoffs 3rd... Thats something to lift your hat to, because it is an achievement in it's on.

[pita bread]

However, this thread is about "the hardest piano piece EVER written," not "the hardest piece in the standard repertoire."

Calling Finnissy's music "a whole bunch of crap thrown together," with no backing to your comment, makes your comment worthless.

[thierry13]

OK I must be very ignorant, but can someone tell me about this Sorabji chap. What music he wrote, which period, etc.. I've never heard of him before...

Perfectly normal ^^ He died like 20 years ago or something like that... so that makes him a modern composer. His music isn't the hardest to play, but it's lenght make it harder. And Sorabji is harder musically than technically.

[Skeptopotamus]

However, this thread is about "the hardest piano piece EVER written," not "the hardest piece in the standard repertoire."

Calling Finnissy's music "a whole bunch of crap thrown together," with no backing to your comment, makes your comment worthless.

Yeah I agree.  All these people badmouthing Finnissy... and XENAKIS!  OMG Xenakis is my hero!  His music isn't pretty but neither is alot of other stuff.  I think you guys are people who play Rach 3 and Gespard and want to make yourselves feel big by saying that they are the hardest pieces there ever are and knowing you can play them makes you guys the coolest pianists ever.  =P  Unlike you dudes who are just talkin, I actually have experience with some of the super-virtuoso composers and trust me, if you sit down and try to play Evryali or History of Sound or Trinity or Opus Clavicembalisticum I PROMISE you won't think Gespard and Rach 3 are harder ^^

[pita bread]

Don't tell me you have the sheets for Trinity...

[perfect_pitch]

However, this thread is about "the hardest piano piece EVER written," not "the hardest piece in the standard repertoire."

Calling Finnissy's music "a whole bunch of crap thrown together," with no backing to your comment, makes your comment worthless.

Music is supposed to expree musical passion and feelings and emotions... When I listened to that Country Piece by Finnissy - That isn't music. That is just a pile of notes thrown together... Every since the middle of the 20th Century, Music has become more obscure and odd to the point of it not being anything brilliant. How many people do you think would go to a Finnissy Concerto??? Compared to a Rachmaninoff COncerto or a Beethoven Symphony?   Bugger all....

I'm sorry, but I still stand by my opinion. Music from Xenakis and Finnissy - It isn't music, it's crap. And I can prove it. When you've had an emotional exhausting day at work, and you just want to put on some nice music to take your mind of things... Would you rather listen to a Beethoven or Mozart Sonata??? Or would you rather listen to this.... 

https://fuwatm.hp.infoseek.co.jp/finnisy_english_country_tune002_choice.mp3



I rest my case.

[JCarey]

Music is supposed to expree musical passion and feelings and emotions... When I listened to that Country Piece by Finnissy - That isn't music. That is just a pile of notes thrown together... Every since the middle of the 20th Century, Music has become more obscure and odd to the point of it not being anything brilliant. How many people do you think would go to a Finnissy Concerto??? Compared to a Rachmaninoff COncerto or a Beethoven Symphony?   Bugger all....

I'm sorry, but I still stand by my opinion. Music from Xenakis and Finnissy - It isn't music, it's crap. And I can prove it. When you've had an emotional exhausting day at work, and you just want to put on some nice music to take your mind of things... Would you rather listen to a Beethoven or Mozart Sonata??? Or would you rather listen to this.... 

https://fuwatm.hp.infoseek.co.jp/finnisy_english_country_tune002_choice.mp3



I rest my case.

You are completely wrong. I can't stand it when people take their opinions and state them as facts. It is music. It is expressive. Just because you obviously aren't sophisticated enough to appreciate Finnissy's music doesn't mean that it is "crap".

[Nightscape]

Here's something I wrote today that's probably blasphemous to both sides of this argument.....

Page One: https://personal.utulsa.edu/~jeremy-ricketson/ChambermaidTale.JPG
Page Two: https://personal.utulsa.edu/~jeremy-ricketson/ChambermaidTale2.JPG

[JCarey]

Here's something I wrote today that's probably blasphemous to both sides of this argument.....

Page One: https://personal.utulsa.edu/~jeremy-ricketson/ChambermaidTale.JPG
Page Two: https://personal.utulsa.edu/~jeremy-ricketson/ChambermaidTale2.JPG

That is not the type of music I am talking about. I have seen the sheetmusic and heard a lot of Finnissy's music (including music for voice and other instruments, piano included) and I have yet to come across anything like that. Now we are getting into a completely different category of 20th Century music.

For anybody who is interested, here are some samples of Finnissy's other music.


https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/14667.m3u

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/17585.m3u

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/17585.m3u

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/3411.m3u

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/14661.m3u

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/audio/14927.m3u

[Nightscape]

That is not the type of music I am talking about.

I didn't say it was meant to be "Finnissy-esque", I have never heard Finnissy's music. 

[JCarey]

I didn't say it was meant to be "Finnissy-esque", I have never heard Finnissy's music. 

Oh, sorry. 

[pita bread]

Music is supposed to expree musical passion and feelings and emotions...

Finnissy's music expresses his feelings, regardless of whether you understand or not; then, by your definition, what Finnissy wrote IS music.

Every since the middle of the 20th Century, Music has become more obscure and odd to the point of it not being anything brilliant.

Right. We'll use Finnissy as an example again. You clearly don't understand his music, so how can you judge its brilliance? And I'm sure the members of this forum can name at least one brilliant composition from after 1950. Are you saying now that the Beetles were not brilliant? Are none of Messiaen's or Ligeti's later works brilliant?

How many people do you think would go to a Finnissy Concerto??? Compared to a Rachmaninoff COncerto or a Beethoven Symphony? Bugger all....

Popularity does not equal greatness.

I'm sorry, but I still stand by my opinion. Music from Xenakis and Finnissy - It isn't music, it's crap. And I can prove it. When you've had an emotional exhausting day at work, and you just want to put on some nice music to take your mind of things... Would you rather listen to a Beethoven or Mozart Sonata??? Or would you rather listen to this....

There you go again, calling things "crap." First of all, music does not have to be relaxing. Even your favorite Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto #3 has moments of adrenaline packed excitement. Secondly, I for one, enjoy complex music because my mind can switch its focus over to the intricacies in the music instead of stuff I don't want to be thinking about. I find cascading walls of sound to be very soothing in drowning out my worries. Your claim has no solid evidence. You have proven absolutely nothing.

And finally, I'll drag in one of your posts from another topic:

"Rachmaninoffs 3rd Piano Concerto demands nothing less than perfection. The piece is scrutinised so much that there is so much pressure to play the piece with not just their fingers but with a sole mind and emotional ecstacy. "

Does any piece of music not deserve to be performed with that degree of devotion?

It makes no difference if you are doing a Double Degree in Music, I think you are living proof that an education does not guarantee intelligence, in fact your education has done nothing to cure your ignorance.

[goansongo]

This Finnissy fellow sucks.

[toymaker]

Beauty is completely in the eyes (and the ears in this occassion) of the beholder.
I see a struggle of everyone to prove if this 20th century music has musical value or not, regardless of difficulty. Any piece of music doesn't in any case need to be necessarily difficult or easy to be beautiful, or total nonsense.

I started taking piano lessons when I was little for one reason only: because Chopin's 3rd Sonata (my uncle's "accident" Xmas gift) brought feelings of great variety to me. I wonder what would have happened if I was listening to Finnissy or Xenakis back then...I would most probably never had learned music at all. So, if such a complicated piece of music (Chopin) can attract a 10-year-old this way, I rest my case for its musical value.

Just because music is supposed to provoke emotions (this is the reason arts exist eitherway), I am very curious to know what Xenakis - Finnissy - Younametherest listeners feel or think when they listen to this kind of random (because random it sounds) "music", and equally important, how often you listen to it. Despite I might get shot at spot here, I really doubt the musical value of this "stuff", strictly personal opinion. It shows nothing but this mule wave of "art" that has filled ALL kinds of contemporary artistic valor with absence of what art as a means of appealing the senses is all about. It is one thing to try to be artistically different, and another to underestimate people's intelligence.

An extreme example - parallelism of our subject: Michaelangelo's "Pieta". Art of sculpture at its finest, no need to debate on that. Now a 20th century neo-sculptor "artist" comes to me with a piece of interconnected spark plugs, pieces of wood, springs and the head of a doll, gives it a flashy, irrelevant name, and calls it art. And sells it 80000$ just because his name is "Huberstauffertulungen the 2nd". Give me a break weirdo. Put this in your own living room. And the saddest of all: There WILL be people who will buy it because of its artistic value, and not as a means to invest their money.

I for one would prefer to listen to Britney Spears and give my ears a rest. Or plug my midi keyboard and start banging it with 3 baseball bats...I might come up with an interesting score!

[perfect_pitch]

Okie-dokie - First of all - Finnissy - What brilliance? There is nothing to understand... Nothing to contemplate - It pretty much sounds like random notes... and even if there is a pattern to it... It is still not pleasurable to the ear. There is no emotion... It's just dreadful nonsense.

And as for the Beetles??? Never heard of them..... Oh wait - you mean the BEATLES? Learn to spell. So I'm apparently saying that the Beatles never wrote anything good? They're two completely different genres. When I said 20th Century Music, I mean't the term 20th Century Classical Music, not 20th Century General Music.

Popularity may not mean Greatness... but Substance helps... and Finnissy lacks it.

"Does any piece of music not deserve to be performed with that degree of devotion?" -
Most of them yes... but the piece needs something to express and to show.....

Believe me - Having an education in Music helps you understand the music and appreciate all that is to be appreciated. You should get one - Might clear things up for you.        And I'm not ignorant - I gave 20th Century Music a go - and I had to study if for a full year full time - Believe me - I appreciate the difficulty in it and realise that it can be odd and different from previous music. But Music started to run out of ideas quite a few decades ago (I do not mean Pop and Rock - I mean Serialistic Music, Minimalistic, Chromatic Music etc....)

[toymaker]

But Music started to run out of ideas quite a few decades ago (I do not mean Pop and Rock - I mean Serialistic Music, Minimalistic, Chromatic Music etc....)

Totally agree.

[JCarey]

This Finnissy fellow sucks.

For God's sake, people like you have no respect for people (like me) who like this type of music. If you have nothing to support your statement (which is rubbish anyway, because taste in music is subjective) then don't bother replying.

[perfect_pitch]

OK then... Instead of me trying to convince you that the music sucks... How about you try convince me that the music DOESN'T suck. I would just like to know what you seem to find so fascinating and intriguing about this music...  What substance do you see in it (That wasn't a sarcastic question - I mean't it seriously).

What is it you like about it?

[JCarey]

OK then... Instead of me trying to convince you that the music sucks... How about you try convince me that the music DOESN'T suck. I would just like to know what you seem to find so fascinating and intriguing about this music...  What substance do you see in it (That wasn't a sarcastic question - I mean't it seriously).

What is it you like about it?

You don't understand what is bothering me. You don't have to like Finnissy, just like you don't have to like Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Sorabji, Penderecki, Vivaldi, etc., but saying a certain type of music "sucks" is very immature and wrong. And plus, as I stated before, it shows a lack of respect for people who do like it. Basically, by saying it sucks, you are insulting their taste.

I like it because I think it is beautiful. It's as simple as that.

[pita bread]

Okie-dokie - First of all - Finnissy - What brilliance? There is nothing to understand... Nothing to contemplate - It pretty much sounds like random notes... and even if there is a pattern to it... It is still not pleasurable to the ear. There is no emotion... It's just dreadful nonsense.

I like how you state your opinion as fact. However, the only thing your "facts" are proving is your ignorance.

And as for the Beetles??? Never heard of them..... Oh wait - you mean the BEATLES? Learn to spell. So I'm apparently saying that the Beatles never wrote anything good? They're two completely different genres. When I said 20th Century Music, I mean't the term 20th Century Classical Music, not 20th Century General Music.

Do you want me to go picking apart every spelling error I have seen you make in this topic? I'm sure an individual as educated as you should understand the concept of ad hominem and how it diminishes your argument.

Popularity may not mean Greatness... but Substance helps... and Finnissy lacks it.

That is your opinion. And your opinions are worthless in this argument because you supply nothing solid to back them.

"Does any piece of music not deserve to be performed with that degree of devotion?" -
Most of them yes... but the piece needs something to express and to show.....

That is your opinion. And your opinions are worthless in this argument because you supply nothing solid to back them.

Believe me - Having an education in Music helps you understand the music and appreciate all that is to be appreciated. You should get one - Might clear things up for you. And I'm not ignorant - I gave 20th Century Music a go - and I had to study if for a full year full time - Believe me - I appreciate the difficulty in it and realise that it can be odd and different from previous music. But Music started to run out of ideas quite a few decades ago (I do not mean Pop and Rock - I mean Serialistic Music, Minimalistic, Chromatic Music etc....)

From the looks of it, you're educated in one thing: Ignorance. Nice waste of tuition.

[Skeptopotamus]

OK then... Instead of me trying to convince you that the music sucks... How about you try convince me that the music DOESN'T suck. I would just like to know what you seem to find so fascinating and intriguing about this music...  What substance do you see in it (That wasn't a sarcastic question - I mean't it seriously).

What is it you like about it?

Sorry Perfect Pitch.  Maybe it just takes someone with a more refined palatte to enjoy his works.

[Skeptopotamus]

ok people.  this ought to shut you up.  these are 3 of the 30 pages of Xenakis's Evryali, and the entire piece maintains this level of difficulty btw.










for better views here are the links.
https://img318.imageshack.us/img318/7484/skanna00202uh.jpg
https://img320.imageshack.us/img320/6800/skanna00282ji.jpg
https://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7382/skanna00290uh.jpg


these aren't even necissarily the most difficult pages =P (i mean that this piece hits more than 4 staves at once point)  So can we shut up now?

[toymaker]

Ououuouououououou...scary. Yeah, right. "This ought to shut you up"...you really spooked me there for a moment mate.
This is not music as my eyes see it (and my ears have already heard it). This is a chef salad (and an already stirred one) on paper.
Just check the last page for crying out loud..."ffff - pp - ffff - pp - ffff - pp - ffff - pp"...in what tempo? Allegro? This is ridiculous. Again, strictly my opinion.

Check previous posts Skepto. Any guy with basic music theory knowledge could come up with this at random, and any other with architecture in mind (in the case of Xenakis) could come up with pretty much the same result (and the same effect). I really wonder, if Xenakis saw a live performance of this piece, would he be able to spot possible wrong notes hit? If he really could, well, what can I say...he should be placed in the Guinness book for drinking too much caffeine. Because this thing doesn't adhere to any harmonic template that a sane ear can catch.

I am not sorry at all that I don't yield the "refined pallette" you mentioned before. In such cases, I would prefer to keep only the 7 basic colors on mine.
Tell me this is impressionism and not music. I take back all of the above.