Brahms op. 117-119 are the greatest piano pieces ever written

[elevateme_returns]

Does anybody agree with me?

[invictious]

Post recordings of it and we will see.

[elevateme_returns]

haven't you heard them?? i'll post now

[elevateme_returns]

there are 13 in total, so if you want to hear them all you'll have to find them yourself. ive posted a link to intermezzo no. 2 op. 118. enjoy!

https://www.sendspace.com/file/r7qzze

(radu lupu)

[mccoy]

I think I can agree with you emphasising the words "greatest", "pieces" and - of course - "piano". They are small and perfectly balanced. They are spectacular.  And they are so stunningly appropiate to the instrument, both for the listener and the performer.

But I personally wouldn't subordinate the so much larger early sonatas to them. And, talking about sonatas as well as "pieces", Schubert is by far the dearest to me...

[opus10no2]

No, not quite, but why don't you include op116?

[elevateme_returns]

because in my opinion theyre not as perfect as the others. go on then, which piano pieces are better than 117 -119

[opus10no2]

I couldn't say, but I consider Alkan's op39no4 to be perfect.

[webern78]

But I personally wouldn't subordinate the so much larger early sonatas to them.

I will. The early sonatas are clearly not among his best works. They are not even sonatas, they are chamber pieces for solo piano. It's common knowledge Brahms had a notorious dislike for the instrument. He hated performing on it, and his teacher could never make a true virtuoso out of him (he almost gave up on Brahms until he discovered his talents as a composer).   

The late pieces were actually meant for Clara Schumann, and Brahms had no intention of publishing them but was pressured into it by the former. Baffling, i know...

[webern78]

I couldn't say, but I consider Alkan's op39no4 to be perfect.

Funny, i find most Alkan to be boring as hell, including his Op. 39.

My vote goes to Beethoven's last three sonatas, and the mature works of Bach, if they count as piano...

[thierry13]

Funny, i find most Alkan to be boring as hell, including his Op. 39.

My vote goes to Beethoven's last three sonatas, and the mature works of Bach, if they count as piano...

I don't know if you listen to a midi player or what, but Alkan is, I think, one of the most inspired composers. I do not mean greatest, nor my favorite, but he definately had A LOT of inspiration, and it shows. Not all his works are fun to listen the first time, but the majority of his works are simpy amazing.

[webern78]

Alkan is, I think, one of the most inspired composers.

He's a grinder. To be frank, i don't find that inspiring, but to each it's own i guess.

For the record, i also can't understand why people like Liszt, as well, or Rach.

[opus10no2]

It's common knowledge Brahms had a notorious dislike for the instrument.

..No.

His piano writing was unique, and he wrote a set of exercises, and works that show a true developed interest in the instrument, and not just music in general.

Funny, i find most Alkan to be boring as hell, including his Op. 39.

Funny , indeed.

[dabbler]

I love them (me with 117/1). They are quite introvert, deeply personal and poetic. I wouldn't want to compare them with larger pieces, but with me they often evoke similar emotions as Kinderszenen, Schubert op.90/1, etc...
(noticing a slight topic change) I'm continuing to discover more Alkan. Great music, by far not only op.39. Oh, my cell phone is ringing (op.35/4, at the moment)...   

[counterpoint]

Does anybody agree with me?

They are perhaps not the greatest, but the strangest piano pieces ever written.
And I really love them!!!

[pita bread]

Op. 118 is godly. Period.  I'd take it over any of his sonatas.

But to say they are the greatest piano pieces ever composed is to place these three sets above Beethoven's final five... it's borderline heresy. I'd go even further to say that Gaspard de la Nuit is on a higher plane of greatness, as is the Scriabin Sonata #2. These final picks are my opinion and you may disagree with me all you'd like, but I have a feeling you'll have a hard time denying the Beethoven.

[elevateme_returns]

i totally agree, the beethoven late sonatas are just astonishing. but however in my own personal opinion, brahms is just something else completely. alkan doesnt touch it. neither for that matter does chopin, liszt, rach, medtner, or most other composers.

[pita bread]

I still can't get over how gorgeous and poignant the 118/6 is... and the usage of dies irae... incredible.

[elevateme_returns]

is that the Eb minor intermezzo? thats one of my favourites. whos your fav interpreter??

[pita bread]

Yeah, that's the Eb. I've heard Biret, Lupu, and Katchen, and my favorite is Lupu.

[mccoy]

to webern78:

Talking about Brahms, his "way" as a composer is commonly described as a life-long effort while prevailing in the end. The kind of "victory" might be clearly to be heard for instance throughout the final movement of his first ("real") symphony. I appreciate his symphonies quite a lot, but don't they carry a sort of - should I say: - mellowness, which misses his aim? I really love his first "serenade", even though its idea is not fully realised over the (esp. later) movements. And we could argue about the two piano concertos, of which again the second is truly mature, but by far not as unique and remarkable as the first ("failed") one. Thus I prefer "taking" the whole Brahms (same as with other composers and authors). Don't the "sonatas" resonate in the final "pieces", enriching the experience of hearing them?

[jericho]

i totally agree, the beethoven late sonatas are just astonishing. but however in my own personal opinion, brahms is just something else completely. alkan doesnt touch it. neither for that matter does chopin, liszt, rach, medtner, or most other composers.

Brahms is an incredible composer, he rarely/never composed anything that was mediocre compared to say Liszt or Rachmaninov. However as great as his Op.117 to Op.119 are there can't really be any comparison between these sets of pieces or suites(if I may call it that) to Sonatas(for example.) They are mini masterpieces but they don't really compare to Chopin's Etude op.10 and 25 or let alone Beethoven's Sonata no.32 op.111 and the Liszt Sonata in terms of greatness and influence to piano writing.

Nevertheless, I must say that the beauty of op.117 to 119 are out of this world and undeniable.

[opus10no2]

He's a grinder. To be frank, i don't find that inspiring

What is a grinder anyway?

[notturno]

What is a grinder anyway?

Grinder: A type of hockey player known for his checking ability and work ethic; often associated with a player who is strong defensively, but who doesn't score many points.
From: https://www.amshockey.com/fanzone/101/slang/

I never pictured Brahms as a hockey goon.  I always thought he was more the "long walk on a warm Vienna spring day" kind of a guy. I have all the more respect for this complex man.

Anyway, these are beautiful and unusual pieces which I'd never heard before. I listened to them a few times yesterday.  I don't know that I'd consider them the greatest, but they are  great. Thanks for mentioning them.

[elevateme_returns]

However as great as his Op.117 to Op.119 are there can't really be any comparison between these sets of pieces or suites(if I may call it that) to Sonatas(for example.) They are mini masterpieces but they don't really compare to Chopin's Etude op.10 and 25 or let alone Beethoven's Sonata no.32 op.111 and the Liszt Sonata in terms of greatness and influence to piano writing.

really? you think the chopin studies are greater than the late brahms pieces?

[jericho]

BRAHMS INTERMEZZI VS. CHOPIN ETUDES

If we consider beauty as the measure of greatness, then I'd give it to Brahms' Intermezzi(the only competition coming from the Etude op.10 no.3's very beautiful melody)...but if"greatness" includes the pianistic influence of these pieces, then the Chopin Etudes be it the Op.10 or the Op.25 are some of the most influential pieces in the history of piano writing.

IMO, there are greater pieces like Bach's Goldberg Variations, Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit, Chopin's Ballade no.4, Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy, Liszt Sonata, Beethoven Sonata op.106 and 111 as well as sets like Chopin's Op.10 and 25 etudes, Bach's Art of the Fugue and Well-Tempered Clavier

I think Brahms is an extremely brilliant composer but in piano music and pianism as a whole, Liszt and Beethoven(who is indeed one of the most influential in in the musical world) are far more influential. So many composers do touch him and even surpass him. Bach was very influential not only in piano, but in all keyboard music.

Just My Opinion.

[elevateme_returns]

what do you mean by influential? im not saying you're wrong, i just dont understand what you mean

[jericho]

Well, influential, for me is how a person can affect his contemporaries and more so the next generation.

It is hard for me to define in precise terms(alas, my command of the English language is limited) so let me just give examples. Liszt for example, was able to foreshadow the emergence of impressionism(with the piece jeux d'eau a la villa de este), the use of leitmotiv(later used by Wagner in his operas), the creation of the symphonic poem, the Bagatelle without Tonality foreshadowed the atonal movement, and of course the "invention" of the piano recital.

Chopin took the nocturnes to greater heigher and deeper depths as one might say, he is also the first composer to write Ballades and Scherzo's as seperate pieces(as opposed to being mere sonata movements), he revolutionized the writing of studies and can be credited of making the first etude de concerts(eventually inspiring Liszt, Schumann ang countless others).

Beethoven, you know how influential he is, whatever influential means.

[phil39]

i would say the 3 opus 117 pieces are pieces of real beauty and they deserve to be any pianists's favourites, but there's plenty of other stuff that could compare, especially by schumann whose style Brahms seemed to be influenced by in these pieces. of the 2 i would say Schumann is the more original genius of the piano, but then originality isn't the only criteria for greatness IMO.
one great thing about Brahms is his ability to write in a formal style, somewhat going against the trends of his time, upholding the spirit of Beethoven in effect .. and that achievement has to be regarded as great!
with Brahms all the power is purely in the music itself with no need of imagery, picturesque titles or dramatic stories to underlay it. such ability to write 'absolute pure' music with nothing 'attached' could be regarded as greatness, but then Wagner and Liszt would disagree!
... just a few thoughts

[iumonito]

116 to 119.  Taking the fantasies out is like chopping out the first 12 P&F from WTC.

BTW, WTC is a greater achievement than 111-119, as much as I love Brahms.

Play them both.

[elevateme_returns]

Well, influential, for me is how a person can affect his contemporaries and more so the next generation.

It is hard for me to define in precise terms(alas, my command of the English language is limited) so let me just give examples. Liszt for example, was able to foreshadow the emergence of impressionism(with the piece jeux d'eau a la villa de este), the use of leitmotiv(later used by Wagner in his operas), the creation of the symphonic poem, the Bagatelle without Tonality foreshadowed the atonal movement, and of course the "invention" of the piano recital.

Chopin took the nocturnes to greater heigher and deeper depths as one might say, he is also the first composer to write Ballades and Scherzo's as seperate pieces(as opposed to being mere sonata movements), he revolutionized the writing of studies and can be credited of making the first etude de concerts(eventually inspiring Liszt, Schumann ang countless others).

Beethoven, you know how influential he is, whatever influential means.

ok, so the brahms pieces are not as influential as say beethoven sonatas. infact completely the opposite to influential. but in my own opinion, they are better pieces of music.

116 to 119. Taking the fantasies out is like chopping out the first 12 P&F from WTC.

BTW, WTC is a greater achievement than 111-119, as much as I love Brahms.

Play them both.

again possibly in influential terms bach's WTC is a lot greater than the late brahms pieces. but in my opinion the brahms pieces are better.   also, in my opinion the capriccios from op. 116 are not as consistently perfect as ops. 117 - 119. however you may think differently, everyone has different tastes.

[elevateme_returns]

and actually, WTC was written for harpsichord not piano? and the thread title is "the greatest piano pieces ever written" . ahaaa didnt see that one coming did you

[g_s_223]

Well, the Brahms' solo pieces I have on my piano mostly turn out to be the Variations, Op.21 and 24 in particular (Op.35 is a bit dry as well as fiendish). There's a huge range of moods in each of these works, with the unifying thread of the theme behind them. No question, variation form was something of which Brahms was a consummate master...

[pita bread]

Add Gieseking to the list of my favorite 118/6 recordings.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Among the greatest I would say, and count in op 116 as well. The W. Kempff interpretation is overwhelming; i've rarely seen such breathtaking pianoplaying.

[fizzy]

The problem with these threads is that everybody has their own opinion, and everybody is convinced that they are absolutely right. But thats what makes them so fun!

I'm playing op. 117 right now, and they are probably the some of the most gorgeous, intimate, and emotional pieces I've ever played. Working up the right character has been the hardest challenge for me.

The others I've only read through or listened to, and they are all beautiful as well.

But as much as I like them I can't say they are the "greatest piano pieces ever written."  Too much by Beethoven and Chopin stands in my way. I would probably agree with something like "some of the most beautiful piano pieces ever written."

[prongated]

Well, the Brahms' solo pieces I have on my piano mostly turn out to be the Variations, Op.21 and 24 in particular (Op.35 is a bit dry as well as fiendish).

Bramhs's Schumann Variations op. 9 also gets my vote as among his greatest work. Very very very difficult to perform well.

I think there's a thread on the "greatest" piano works ever composed recently. Pictures, Liszt b minor, certain Beethoven sonata(s) appear quite regularly, among others, depending how "greatest" is defined.

So to me, Schubert's D960 befits the description - a substantial composition written in the composer's most mature period (well...) and capturing so much human essence.

ps. I'm surprised again that op10no2 mentioned the op. 116, which I agree is a fantastic work you shouldn't omit as among Brahms' greatest for piano...

[piano_ant]

So to me, Schubert's D960 befits the description - a substantial composition written in the composer's most mature period (well...) and capturing so much human essence.

ps. I'm surprised again that op10no2 mentioned the op. 116, which I agree is a fantastic work you shouldn't omit as among Brahms' greatest for piano...

I totally agree, the Schubert is one of the greatest piano sonatas ever written. There is so much genius in the work, it touches your soul. as fr the Brahms, I think its so interesting how by his old age, how smoothly his music flowed as compared to the awkwardness of his youthful compositions. The late pieces are definitely some of the finest music written. Better than that hater Liszt anyway...

[elevateme_returns]

i think the D959 sonata is the best thing schubert wrote apart from the quintet. i did it a few years ago (the sonata)

[soliloquy]

I like Opp. 2/39/76/116 the most for Brahms.


But randomly I would not consider any piece the "greatest piece".  How can you compare the "greatness" of Bach Goldberg Variations to Debussy Estampes?  My favorite piano pieces are:

Alexander Mosolov- Sonata No. 2
Iannis Xenakis- "Herma"- Musique Symbolique
Tristan Murail- Territoires de l'Oubli
Karlheinz Stockhausen- Klavierstuck XIII
Arthur Kampela- Nosturnos
Alan Yim- :[ten]dril
Nikos Skalkottas- 32 Piano Pieces
Alexander Scriabin- Sonata No. 6
Alberto Ginastera- Piano Concerto No. 2
Gyorgy Kurtag- Jatekok
Pascal Dusapin- Seven Etudes pour Piano
Michael Finnissy- Folklore
Michael Finnissy- Solo Piano Concerto No. 6
Toshiro Mayuzumi- Pieces for Prepared Piano and Strings
Sylvano Bussotti- Due Soliloqui
Hans-Joachim Hespos- -Z...()
Luigi Nono- ...sofferte onde serene...
Salvatore Sciarrino- Nocturnes
Yoshihisa Taira- Sonomorphie I
Andre Boucourechliev- Anarchipel 5
Luigi Verdi- Frammenti
Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji- Prelude, Interlude and Fugue


Favorite Standard Pieces:

Wagner-Liszt Tannhauser Overture
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
Prokofiev Toccata Op. 11
Debussy Images II
Schubert Sonata in A Minor D784
Liszt Ballade No. 2
Chopin Piano Concerto No. 1
Bartok Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion
Meyerbeer-Liszt-Busoni Fantasy et Fugue
Alkan Trois Grandes Etudes Op. 76
Alkan Symphonie pour Piano Suel Op. 39
Prokofiev Sonata No. 4
Beethoven Sonata in E Op. 109
Franck Piano Quintet
Scarlatti Various Sonatas (K. 417, 450)
Soler Various Sonatas (No. 49)

[elevateme_returns]

wow.. lot of lesser known repertoire there! thanks for the list

[pianowolfi]

I still can't get over how gorgeous and poignant the 118/6 is... and the usage of dies irae... incredible.

Ohh wow I wasn't even aware of that but now that I think of this piece--of course! thanks for the hint!

[pita bread]

Ohh wow I wasn't even aware of that but now that I think of this piece--of course! thanks for the hint!

The dies irae is all over the place in that piece man.

I'm almost finished learning it... now to finish off the rest of 118...

[opus10no2]

118/5 moves me alot 

[pita bread]

Alright, so what recordings of the Brahms Op. 118 does everyone like?

Complete: Lupu
118/6: Gieseking

[opus10no2]

Personally, I lke Lugansky alot on DVD, amazing sound too, like the other roque DVDs.

[dcb1959]

Yes, Yes and Yes!!!  I did the intermezzo in A Major and the one in g minor on my recital at Univ of Alabama  back in 1981.  The capricco in d minor is also a fave.  I once performed this piece at convocation.....got FOUR curtain calls!!!  Brahms rules!!