the most over played and overrated composer is...

[thalbergmad]

John Field's Nocturnes are boring.

Then we must be thankfull that he wrote a few other pieces.

Thal

[gep]

Overrated and overpromoted by a few enthusiasts is the completely pretentious and fake note-writer (not even a composer) Sorabji.

Having the privilege to have been present at the 2nd performance of Sorabji’s Organ Symphony no. 2, I must say that being able to write a piece of music that lasts for 9 hours yet is totally captivating from the beginning to the end at the very first time a non-musician like me hears it, should be proof enough that Sorabji IS a composer, be it not to everyone’s taste. Which is not a problem in itself whatsoever!
Sorabji’s music as seen on the page (and I do have the distinct pleasure of having some scores) looks insane indeed when compared to, say, a Haydn Sonata. However, once one has heard this “insane” music played by those who can not only play it, but play it with the apparent consummate ease as do Jonathan Powell, Frederik Ullén, Kevin Bowyer and others, one discovers, if one has ears attuned to it, or at least willing to try to attune to it, hear that what looks insane on the page at first fright is quite staggeringly brilliant music indeed!
And as for looking insane on the page, have a look at what JSBach writes for a solo violin…

I'm puzzled by what you mean by "overpromoted". There seem to be very few commercials about him about...

Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Krenek. Random notes I can invent and play at any time.

If indeed this is so please consider yourself invited to provide the proof, which should not be a great problem to you…!

then Christ was a Muslim.

Considering that Christ in Islam is considered to be one of the great prophets before Mohamed, one might say he is if not a Muslim than at least a precursors thereof. (In reality Christ was, of course, a Jew by birth and practice; a fact that will tick off not only quite a few Christians and Muslims but also a number of Jews… That Christ was not a Jew is a twisting of  the truth, invented by disciples who wanted to make his teachings Salonfähig [Cubiculumfähig?] for the Roman world.)

To make your point valid you might consider changing the last part of the sentence to “..then Madoff is a honest banker.”

gep

[gep]

I vote in Bach.

Then you cannot be a musician or an appreciator thereof. The only way a musician of any sort could be deaf to Bach would be when he is dead.

Sorry, have to go now to find where my lower jaw rolled to after reading your post....

gep

[ahinton]

Considering that Christ in Islam is considered to be one of the great prophets before Mohamed, one might say he is if not a Muslim than at least a precursors thereof. (In reality Christ was, of course, a Jew by birth and practice; a fact that will tick off not only quite a few Christians and Muslims but also a number of Jews… That Christ was not a Jew is a twisting of  the truth, invented by disciples who wanted to make his teachings Salonfähig [Cubiculumfähig?] for the Roman world.)

Of course this is correct; what I ought perhaps to have done to make it clearer was to suggest that Christ in His own time was a Muslim which, since He predated Mohamed by several centuries, would have been as impossible in reality as that assertion with which I was seeking to draw comparison; that said, whilst I hope that the point which I was trying to make was already valid, your suggested alternative

"then Madoff is a honest banker"

is vastly better, so many thanks for that!

Best,

Alistair

[magio]

I think the most overrated is Debussy and the most underrated is Glinka
And please don't underestimate my opinion because i have heard tons of classical compositions!

[djealnla]

Overrated? Cage, Morton Feldman and George Gershwin.

Also, while Alkan should be played more often, I find the whole cult around him to be over-the-top, especially when people claim that his music is crafted better than Chopin's or Liszt's.

[ahinton]

Also, while Alkan should be played more often, I find the whole cult around him to be over-the-top, especially when people claim that his music is crafted better than Chopin's or Liszt's.

I would just like it to be known (to those who do not already know) that, as a most ardent champion of Alkan, I am not at all interested in any alleged "cult" around him (or anyone else) and would no more dream of claiming that his work is "better crafted" than that of Chopin or Liszt any more than Chopin or Liszt would themselves have asserted their own respetive work to be "better crafted" than that of Alkan; can you not see that this fabulous triumvirate of pianist/composers all born within some three years of one another represent one of the 19th century's greatest ornaments in Western keyboard music? We should celebrate the work of all three - not least their individualities - rather than seek to set up some silly kind of "competition" between them.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

... can you not see that this fabulous triumvirate of pianist/composers all born within some three years of one another represent one of the 19th century's greatest ornaments in Western keyboard music? We should celebrate the work of all three - not least their individualities - rather than seek to set up some silly kind of "competition" between them.

Fair enough, and if you add a year, 1814, then we get Henselt.  His music is most agreeable -if not terribly striking- but he was obviously an extremely talented man, and I wonder if given different circumstances Henselt might have better fulfilled a promise which was certainly there to begin with.

Who knows.  Just a thought. 

[nearenough]

Alkan sounds uninspired, long-winded and gauche or klunky. Somewhat bombastic. Yes, I have enjoyed some pleasant moments but for some reason have no longing wish to return to listen, except out of curiosity every 5 years or so. And I have never wished to play any of his material, as I have so benefited from playing Chopin, especially.

[magio]

If you dare to imply again that Alkan is overrated,fire shall burn your asses!
(oupssss sorry!)

[gyzzzmo]

Alkan's compositions are definitely not of the quality of for example Chopin's and Liszt. But people are hardly playing Alkan if you compare to those other 2. In that way Alkan surely isnt overrated/overplayed.

[birba]

Overrated George Gershwin?!?!?!  MAH!.... (Italian expression denoting wonder and perplexity)

[ingunite]

Ahem...
Could someone else not like Phillip Glass, too?
And how about Edward MacDowell?

[ahinton]

Could someone else not like Phillip Glass, too?

Yes, there are some people who like Philip Glass...

And how about Edward MacDowell?

No, there's no evidence that he liked Philip Glass...

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Yes, there are some people who like Philip Glass...

But not his wives, it seems, since three divorced from him. Perhaps things got too unpredictable in living with him...

Quote from: ingunite on Today at 02:55:28 PM
And how about Edward MacDowell?

No, there's no evidence that he liked Philip Glass...

Best,

Alistair

But perhaps he did like a glass of Phillips!

gep

[djealnla]

I would just like it to be known (to those who do not already know) that, as a most ardent champion of Alkan, I am not at all interested in any alleged "cult" around him (or anyone else) and would no more dream of claiming that his work is "better crafted" than that of Chopin or Liszt any more than Chopin or Liszt would themselves have asserted their own respetive work to be "better crafted" than that of Alkan; can you not see that this fabulous triumvirate of pianist/composers all born within some three years of one another represent one of the 19th century's greatest ornaments in Western keyboard music? We should celebrate the work of all three - not least their individualities - rather than seek to set up some silly kind of "competition" between them.

Best,

Alistair

The "cult" to which I'm referring here is that of people, who obstinately believe that well-known classical music should be ignored, whereas obscure classical music should get all the spotlight. Many people, it seems to me, have fallen victims to this idea. Since Alkan is certainly one of the greater neglected romantic-era composers, some people automatically claim him to be pretty much the greatest composer for the piano among the Romantics, which I certainly can't agree with (though I do not deny the fact that his music is underplayed; I was simply saying, that its fans claim it to be much greater than it actually is).

Frankly, I was shocked when I saw someone on this site claim that several of Alkan's works represent the best of the romantic-era and that his Op. 39 No. 12 is superior to every theme-and-variations set from the Goldberg Variations till Rachmaninoff's Corelli Variations. Such a statement is completely absurd if one seriously listens to Beethoven's Diabelli Variations or Brahms' Op. 24. It also tosses aside the true geniuses of romanticism, such as Wagner and Bruckner, who receive absolutely no attention here, despite having composed some phenomenal music.

I was even more shocked when I saw some guy on Amazon.com claim that Alkan's Aime-moi is equally beautiful as any Chopin Ballade. Frankly, I might put it above the 2nd, but the 4th is probably the greatest solo piano piece after Beethoven and before Scriabin.

Also, as far as chord inversions are concerned, Chopin pawns both Liszt and Alkan.   

[ahinton]

The "cult" to which I'm referring here is that of people, who obstinately believe that well-known classical music should be ignored, whereas obscure classical music should get all the spotlight. Many people, it seems to me, have fallen victims to this idea. Since Alkan is certainly one of the greater neglected romantic-era composers, some people automatically claim him to be pretty much the greatest composer for the piano among the Romantics, which I certainly can't agree with (though I do not deny the fact that his music is underplayed; I was simply saying, that its fans claim it to be much greater than it actually is).

OK - that's fair comment as far as it goes - but when a composer such as Alkan does find himself in the discarded pile for many decades but remains one of the most important composers of his day (note that I wrote "one of", not "the"), enthusiasts do have from time to time to over-egg the pudding in trying to redress this grave imbalance. Don't forget what Sorabji wrote about Liszt only around 80 years ago - that some 95% of his work was unknown to the general public - which, for all that Liszt was a "household name" long before then, was nevertheless true - and we know far more of Liszt's music now than we did then.

Frankly, I was shocked when I saw someone on this site claim that several of Alkan's works represent the best of the romantic-era and that his Op. 39 No. 12 is superior to every theme-and-variations set from the Goldberg Variations till Rachmaninoff's Corelli Variations. Such a statement is completely absurd if one seriously listens to Beethoven's Diabelli Variations or Brahms' Op. 24. It also tosses aside the true geniuses of romanticism, such as Wagner and Bruckner, who receive absolutely no attention here, despite having composed some phenomenal music.

I agree with you here; the problem is with this ineffably silly persuasion to "grade" works by different composers by saying that this is superior or inferior to that; yes, of course the Fifth Symphony of Bruckner (since you mention him) is greater than that of Mendelssohn, but beyond a certain point this obsession with comparing can become far more coutyer-productive than it is instructive (and I suspect that Wagner and Brucker have not been mentioned in this context here simply because they weren't piano composers). I would not make such a claim, although I do think that Le Festin is one of the great 19th century sets of variations for piano.

I was even more shocked when I saw some guy on Amazon.com claim that Alkan's Aime-moi is equally beautiful as any Chopin Ballade. Frankly, I might put it above the 2nd, but the 4th is probably the greatest solo piano piece after Beethoven and before Scriabin.

Hard to argue withe your last statement here! - that's something that strikes quite a chord with me, since it was the first piece of music I ever heard and it blew me away then, just as it still does. But now you're doing it - "the greatest..." etc.!

Also, as far as chord inversions are concerned, Chopin pawns both Liszt and Alkan.   

Chopin's harmonic language is indeed quite incredibly inventive and a subject of eternal fascination - but the point at issue here should surely be that all three composers are so different to one another despite being such close contemporaries who all knew one another in the Paris of the 1840s. Vive la difference!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It also tosses aside the true geniuses of romanticism, such as Wagner and Bruckner, who receive absolutely no attention here, despite having composed some phenomenal music.

Well, it is sort of a piano forum here and Wagner's piano music aint worth a pint of panther piss.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Frankly, I was shocked when I saw someone on this site claim that several of Alkan's works represent the best of the romantic-era.

They may be in the minority, but I think you need to accept that some people feel that way.

Frankly, I would rather listen to Alkan than Schumann or Brahms and I would rather listen to Wagner transcriptions than original operas, that go on for hours with screaming women in possession of ridiculous metallic breasts.

Many composers that were extremely popular in their day are relatively ignored today and whilst they are not to everyone's taste, I like to champion the cause of Henselt, Alkan, Dreyschock, Herz, Kalkbrenner, Thalberg & even De Meyer, who can be immensely amusing. They are the composer/pianists that sparked off the romantic movement. Arguably, it was Wagner & Bruckner that were the height.

Thal

[djealnla]

Frankly, I would rather listen to Alkan than Schumann or Brahms and I would rather listen to Wagner transcriptions than original operas, that go on for hours with screaming women in possession of ridiculous metallic breasts.

Why do you dislike Brahms? I know you said that before in this thread, but I'm interested in your reasons.

[thalbergmad]

I don't, albeit some pieces such as the intermezzi and sonata 1 i find beyond boring. I just prefer Alkan.

It is Schumann who i reserve the bulk of my hatred for.

Thal

[ahinton]

I don't, albeit some pieces such as the intermezzi and sonata 1 i find beyond boring. I just prefer Alkan.

It is Schumann who i reserve the bulk of my hatred for.

Whilst agreeing that the peak of 19th century Romanticism is, as you claim, Wagner and Bruckner, I have not only to disagree wih you about Brahms but wonder why it is actual hatred that you reserve for Schumann. Wagner's and Bruckner's attitude to Schumann was quite different to your own, Brahms and Elgar revered Schumann and Schumann's contribution to the early part of Romanticism can surely not reasonably be undermined. Chopin was largely puzzled and perplexed by Schumann; Schumann's famous "hats off, gentlemen - a genius" celebration of Chopin was responded to by Chopin's very formal and arguably somewhat cold dedication to Schumann of his Second Ballade "à Monsieur Robert Schumann". I'm not immediately sure what Liszt and Alkan made of Schumann, but both Liszt and Alkan were crucial figures in the Romantic movement in 19th century music (think of Liszt's Années de Pèlerinage, the Sonata and the symphonic poems and Alkan's character pieces).

Do please try to reconsider your attitude towards Schumann - one which seems pretty much at odds with your interest in not only the great moments in but also some of the more obscure byways of the Romantic tradition.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Chopin was largely puzzlded

I was not aware of this.

Thal

[mompal]

Definitely Tsjaikowsky. I'm not even listening to his very, very popular 1st piano concerto or his violin concerto anymore.  Besides the two other piano concertos (# two and three) are absolute garbage.  Forget about them totally. Only his sixth symphony is somewhat worth the effort. But that's really it!!!

[ahinton]

I was not aware of this.

Your awareness or otherwise of "this" or indeed anything else simply ain't my problem, nor is it any real part of the subject under discussion.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

...Brahms and Elgar revered Schumann and Schumann's contribution to the early part of Romanticism can surely not reasonably be undermined.

No, I would not think so.  Elgar loved Brahms and Schumann , and if you listen to the Elgar 2nd Symphony (first movement), you can 'hear' the first movement of the Brahms 3rd in the background.

Elgar did indeed conduct the Brahms 3rd.

As for the Schumann piano concerto, well Argerich has always been devoted to it.  Call out the deficiencies of the piece, but care to question why Argerich has always loved it?   

[djealnla]

As for me, I have been repeatedly a "victim" of blind-taste listening tests in regards to Schumann; i.e., I was hearing his music on the radio, but I didn't know it was him. Each time I enjoyed the music tremendously, and when the person in the radio announced we had been listening to Schumann, I was always surprised that so many people despise such high quality music.

Regarding Chopin contra Schumann: Chopin, as he was very aristocratic, hated Schumann's romantic way of writing (articles, not music), and he also couldn't stand Schumann praising him in a bombastic manner (he wrote an extremely enthusiastic article about his Op. 2, for instance). In the Carnaval Schumann created a musical portrait of Chopin, and when the Carnaval got published and Chopin was asked what he thought of it, he reportedly said that "it's a well bound publication."

[djealnla]

Deleted

[thalbergmad]

Call out the deficiencies of the piece, but care to question why Argerich has always loved it? 

Indeed, let us question why.

Someone here must have her e mail, let us find out. I truly would be interested to know.

Thal

[stevebob]

Regarding Chopin contra Schumann: Chopin, as he was very aristocratic, hated Schumann's romantic way of writing (articles, not music), and he also couldn't stand Schumann praising him in a bombastic manner (he wrote an extremely enthusiastic article about his Op. 2, for instance). In the Carnaval Schumann created a musical portrait of Chopin, and when the Carnaval got published and Chopin was asked what he thought of it, he reportedly said that "it's a well bound publication."

Is there really factual evidence that Chopin "hated" Schumann's way with words or that he "couldn't stand" Schumann's effusive praise?  It strains belief, especially as regards the familiar statement about Chopin's Op. 2.  At that early stage of his career, validation from an established musical critic would have been valuable and useful to Chopin.

My assumption (and it's only that, as I would never claim to know with certainty) has always been that "Schumann's romantic way of writing ... music" was precisely what Chopin found unsympathetic.  Chopin didn't associate himself with the Romantic movement and, unlike Schumann, eschewed extramusical associations in his own compositions; his personality was reserved and refined, and he probably found Schumann's frank openness (e.g., about the Florestan/Eusebius duality within himself) perplexing, foreign, undignified and even indulgent.

The quip about "a well bound publication" is amusing (and Chopin was known to have a sense of humor).  If it's genuine, I'm surprised it's not better known.

[aaron_ginn]

Tchaikovsky.  Can't stand anything by him at all.  Everything is just sappy, emotional nonsense, IMHO.  I agree somewhat with Nikolai Rubinstein that his piano concerto is worthless and unplayable.  Not to mention that he was a miserable person who denigrated composers far superior to him (Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner).

[aaron_ginn]

I think the most overrated is Debussy and the most underrated is Glinka
And please don't underestimate my opinion because i have heard tons of classical compositions!

I forgot all about Debussy and I am in total agreement.  I don't get his music at all.  I find the preludes to be unlistenable, with the exception of La cathédrale engloutie and La fille aux cheveux de lin, the latter of which I consider to be one of the finest short pieces ever written for the piano.  It's wistful, delightful, and full of deep longing - qualities which I find lacking in all the rest of Debussy's works.

[stevebob]

Tchaikovsky.  Can't stand anything by him at all.  Everything is just sappy, emotional nonsense, IMHO.  I agree somewhat with Nikolai Rubinstein that his piano concerto is worthless and unplayable.  Not to mention that he was a miserable person who denigrated composers far superior to him (Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner).

Which concerto?  If you mean the first one, it seems contradictory that the best-known piano work by a composer alleged to be “overplayed and overrated” can simultaneously be described as “worthless and unplayable.”

For what it’s worth, some of the reasons for which Tchaikovsky might have been a “miserable person” are fairly well known.

[aaron_ginn]

Which concerto?  If you mean the first one, it seems contradictory that the best-known piano work by a composer alleged to be “overplayed and overrated” can simultaneously be described as “worthless and unplayable.”

For what it’s worth, some of the reasons for which Tchaikovsky might have been a “miserable person” are fairly well known.

Yes, the first.  And don't blame me for the quote.  Rubinstein said it and he knew more about the piano than I will ever know.  Anyway, I said I agreed somewhat.  It certainly isn't unplayable, but I still hold that like most of Tchaikovsky, it is emotion-laden nonsense.  Anyway, it's just my opinion.  Take it or leave it.

[birba]

I'll leave it.

[thalbergmad]

it is emotion-laden nonsense. 

I guess some people would see "emotion-laden" as a plus point.

Not me, I prefer Xenakis.

Thal

[magio]

Xenakis the great!
Being Greek,like Xenakis was, i also like greek composers!
LOL
 

[thalbergmad]

Yeh, Xenakis is one of my faves, along with Berio, Boulez and Ferneyhough.

Such joy.

Thal

[gep]

Yeh, Xenakis is one of my faves, along with Berio, Boulez and Ferneyhough.

Such joy.

Thal

If you are into Greek and difficult piano concertos, I'd guess you have the four by Skalkottas? Esp. no. 3 (for piano and 10 winds, lasting some 65 minutes) should be a joy indeed!

Just got Evgeny Svetlanov's Piano Concerto, bit weird piece, seems to lack a 1st movement proper. Anyone else know this piece?

gep

[ahinton]

I still hold that like most of Tchaikovsky, it is emotion-laden nonsense.

Could you possibly explain, to those of us here who might not understand, how you distinguish between music that is "emotion-laden" and that whose expression of emotions is inherent in it rather than plastered on from the outside?

Anyway, it's just my opinion.

Perhaps not quite "just" yours alone but I agree that few are likely to share it.

Take it or leave it.

I'll leave it, thanks.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

If you are into Greek and difficult piano concertos, I'd guess you have the four by Skalkottas? Esp. no. 3 (for piano and 10 winds, lasting some 65 minutes) should be a joy indeed!

The CPS has only 2 of them. I understand the others are unpublished although this might have changed.

The best Piano Concerto I have heard in yonks is by the Dutch composer Carl Smulders. Perhaps you might have heard of this, but if not, it is on youtube.

CPS member in Amsterdam acquired the score, but it is completely beyond my powers.

Thal

[teccomin]

Overrated: Tchaikovsky, Schumann
None of their music worth repeated listening.

[thalbergmad]

I cannot help but agree on the latter and mostly the former.

Thal

[gep]

The best Piano Concerto I have heard in yonks is by the Dutch composer Carl Smulders. Perhaps you might have heard of this, but if not, it is on youtube.

CPS member in Amsterdam acquired the score, but it is completely beyond my powers.

Thal

Unfortunately not, but it turns out the Rotterdam Central Library has a copy, so I've ordered it for loan.

That CD has also the Pijper Concert (which I know) and the Van Baaren and Badings (the latter for 2 pianos) which I don't know, so I could be in for a treat!

gep

[thalbergmad]

A friend of mine has that CD and is gonna send it to me.

Like you, I know the Pijper but not the other two.

For some strange reason, Dutch composers seem to like concertos for 2 pianos. There are hundreds of them.

Thal

[naturlaut]

can you not see that this fabulous triumvirate of pianist/composers all born within some three years of one another represent one of the 19th century's greatest ornaments in Western keyboard music? We should celebrate the work of all three - not least their individualities - rather than seek to set up some silly kind of "competition" between them.

Best,

Alistair

I like how you side-stepped Schumann so unconsciously.

[stevebob]

I like how you side-stepped Schumann so unconsciously.

Perhaps he wasn't included because of the specific reference to keyboard music.

[gep]

The best Piano Concerto I have heard in yonks is by the Dutch composer Carl Smulders. Perhaps you might have heard of this, but if not, it is on youtube.

Thal

I'ne now heard that concerto, and it's indeed quite interesting (so thanks for the tip!). It seems to be in more (Northern) autumnal shades and hues rather than bright (Southern) colo(u)rs (more Grieg than Greek so to say). What I somewhat deplore (but this is no blame) is the fact that the composer seems to avoid any letting go, making the music somewhat aloof and uneventfull. The only real full throttle parts are at the end of the 1st and the end of the 3rd movement, but even there the breaks are on rather too quickly. Perhaps the composer was thinking of not overstretching the polite audience?
But then perhaps all this is due to the performance rather than the work itself.

If you get the CD, I think you might like the Badings, and less so (if at all)  the Van Baaren. But do tell us!

all best,
gep

[thalbergmad]

OK, will report back.

I don't anticipate hearing anything that surpasses the Roentgen, which in my humble opinion is the greatest of Dutch Concerti.

Thal

[ahinton]

OK, will report back.

I don't anticipate hearing anything that surpasses the Roentgen, which in my humble opinion is the greatest of Dutch Concerti.

OK, but don't forget Time's Arrow, will you, there's a good chap...

Best,

Alistair