the most over played and overrated composer is...

[phil13]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing in the WORLD that puts me in a better mood than playing a Mozart Sonata, they are deceptively difficult, they are bright, light and spritely.  I mean, if only good composers are brooding and moody like Brahms or Beethoven, and Chopin, I think we have a problem.  I think most don't like Mozart because he actually has a sense of humor, and is a little goofy.  (I am speaking in terms of his Sonatas)

Hmm...do people dislike Haydn for the same reasons?

Phil

[alwaystheangel]

I think that is very astute of you phil.  yeah, I mean Haydn is certainly not a composer to the degree that Mozart is, but people dont really perceive him as a very serious composer either.

[Barbosa-piano]

   Did anybody say Brahms is overrated? RACHMANINOFF??? Schumann?? I am now going to cut my wrists, as life no longer has meaning  emo

[mephisto]

I prefer Haydn WAY over Mozart. Especially when it comes to music including piano. Mozart's best music may of course surpass Haydn's.

[elevateme_returns]

I prefer Haydn WAY over Mozart. Especially when it comes to music including piano. Mozart's best music may of course surpass Haydn's.

i agree

[tradge]

I prefer Haydn WAY over Mozart. Especially when it comes to music including piano. Mozart's best music may of course surpass Haydn's.

Yeah, I much prefer Mozarts symphonies to Haydns symphonies, they're so much more lively, and loads more fun to play!

[counterpoint]

I prefer Haydn WAY over Mozart.

Me too 

[dnephi]

Beethoven has lots of humor- see his Op. 1 trios to see that :p.

Haydn's great in his way, but Mozart is different.  Haydn represented the innovations of the classic period and Mozart the peak of the forms in their current form.  After Mozart, Beethoven had to explore different forms and ideas.

Anyone know the C# minor Sonata by Haydn (#26 or #36 maybe?)  Nice piece with sturm und drang.

[phil13]

Beethoven has lots of humor- see his Op. 1 trios to see that :p.

Haydn's great in his way, but Mozart is different.  Haydn represented the innovations of the classic period and Mozart the peak of the forms in their current form.  After Mozart, Beethoven had to explore different forms and ideas.

Anyone know the C# minor Sonata by Haydn (#26 or #36 maybe?)  Nice piece with sturm und drang.

Several of Haydn's sonatas deserve more merit than they usually recieve, in my opinion. I believe that as a whole, Haydn's sonatas were more varied than Mozart's, and they therefore have a greater difference between the 'good' sonatas and the 'bad' sonatas. (Mozart's are not quite as different- in fact, many of the sonatas draw on similar material from one another)

These are just a few of the ones that I think surpass most of Mozart's output in the form:

B minor, Hob. XVI No.32
C# minor, Hob. XVI No.36
Ab major, Hob. XVI No.46
Eb major, Hob. XVI No.52


Phil

[kd]

Several of Haydn's sonatas deserve more merit than they usually recieve, in my opinion. I believe that as a whole, Haydn's sonatas were more varied than Mozart's, and they therefore have a greater difference between the 'good' sonatas and the 'bad' sonatas. (Mozart's are not quite as different- in fact, many of the sonatas draw on similar material from one another)

These are just a few of the ones that I think surpass most of Mozart's output in the form:

B minor, Hob. XVI No.32
C# minor, Hob. XVI No.36
Ab major, Hob. XVI No.46
Eb major, Hob. XVI No.52

And the above list is by no means complete. For example, add XVI/44 in G minor, XVI/48 in C major, XVI/50 in C major, and even XVI/20 in C minor.

Pity Haydn didn't experiment with the 4-movement form (I especially think this of XVI/49 in Eb major).

And my personal feeling is that, apart from A minor KV 310 and C minor KV 457, Mozart quickly becomes boring as you get to know more of his sonatas. Is it just a coincidence that exactly these two are in minor keys?

[phil13]

And the above list is by no means complete. For example, add XVI/44 in G minor, XVI/48 in C major, XVI/50 in C major, and even XVI/20 in C minor.

Pity Haydn didn't experiment with the 4-movement form (I especially think this of XVI/49 in Eb major).

And my personal feeling is that, apart from A minor KV 310 and C minor KV 457, Mozart quickly becomes boring as you get to know more of his sonatas. Is it just a coincidence that exactly these two are in minor keys?

Ah, I forgot about the C minor one. Thanks.

As for Mozart, his sonatas are somewhat similar, but I don't think you can narrow his good output down to just 2 sonatas. That's pretty unfair.

Mozart may have a lot of common material in his sonatas, but a few of the major-key ones stand out along with the A minor and C minor as really great works:

K.311 in D major
K.330 in C major
K.331 in A major
K.332 in F major
K.333 in Bb major

Phil

[kd]

As for Mozart, his sonatas are somewhat similar, but I don't think you can narrow his good output down to just 2 sonatas. That's pretty unfair.

Mozart may have a lot of common material in his sonatas, but a few of the major-key ones stand out along with the A minor and C minor as really great works:

K.311 in D major
K.330 in C major
K.331 in A major
K.332 in F major
K.333 in Bb major

Ok, perhaps I didn't say that clearly enough. I don't think Mozart sonatas are of bad quality, but many of them are so similar in style, e.g. structure, harmony, phrasing, articulation etc., that they seem to me a variation on the same idea. And that is the reason I said they can quickly become boring. Except possibly for KV 331 which I admit also stands out (but is too often spoiled, unfortunately), I will probably never have good motivation to play all of the other four you mentioned, even though all of them are definitely good works. However, they just don't seem to give "enough variety". I don't want to limit Mozart's good output. But his cycle of piano sonatas is in my opinion, and with a few select exceptions, too homogenous. Some people say "monotonous" instead. Even Bach's WTC, which is also a huge collection, offers more variety, not to mention Beethoven's sonatas.

Not that I want to depreciate Mozart in any way. But my point is that it's easy to get a good grasp of what most Mozart piano sonatas are really about, which cannot be said about Haydn - just look at differences between XVI/20, XVI/32, XVI/52. That's already huge evolution.

[moi_not_toi]

First of all, saying Mozart's piano music sucks is saying you suck. Consider the fact that you're just too stupid to get it?

And if it's not your fault that you can't spell, then tell me, whose fault is it?

Now that's real mature, isn't it? Aristotle say: attack the subject, not the speaker.
Whose fault is it? No one's s***t happens, yo.

Of course, then again, I consider all music after Vivaldi and before Schubert to be crap (with few exceptions, like Beethoven)

[Nightscape]

I think that Mozart is given just a bit more attention than is fair, considering the contributions of a lot of other composers.  About half of the effort spent on him should go to some 20th century music, that would make me happier.

His music is lovely, of course, and perfect within its own boundaries, but for god's sake, does he have to put a I64-V-I cadence with a trill in the right hand in every single piece! (I'm exaggerating of course, but it does get annoying after a while).

[arbisley]

I think that Mozart is given just a bit more attention than is fair, considering the contributions of a lot of other composers. About half of the effort spent on him should go to some 20th century music, that would make me happier.

His music is lovely, of course, and perfect within its own boundaries, but for god's sake, does he have to put a I64-V-I cadence with a trill in the right hand in every single piece! (I'm exaggerating of course, but it does get annoying after a while).

Haha! yeah it does seem like that sometimes...

I think it's true that he's overperformed in proportion to other extremely able composers, but also that he is just performed because he is very widely known, and that people consider him to be great just because of this fact, not for what he really was trying to express in his music. Which is why you so often hear, when someone wants to know if you like classical music, "you listen to mozart and sh#t?"

[amelialw]

hmm... that's not quite true that Mozart's overperformed, I mean look at Beethoven...if you go somewhere and ask someone which classical composer they play the most if would be Beethoven c'mon when my teacher examines like 60% students play Beethoven. For me I really like Mozart and Haydn.

[arbisley]

I like almost any composers, not for what people think they are, but for the interest in the individual pieces. I don't see the point in "rating" as it is something which is so personal, and also that alot of it has to do with popularity, which as I said does not necessarily mean that less popular composers aren't just as good or even sometimes better!

[alwaystheangel]

I like almost any composers, not for what people think they are, but for the interest in the individual pieces. I don't see the point in "rating" as it is something which is so personal, and also that alot of it has to do with popularity, which as I said does not necessarily mean that less popular composers aren't just as good or even sometimes better!

that's why this is such an interesting thread, you see why certain people so passionately believe that Brahms is under appreciated in their eyes, whereas other people think he is over rated, for example. or how most people find Mozart trite and irritating versus hadyn (which actually kind of surprises me, but whatever).  This is my favourite thread in a long time, actually.  you may see it as being too personal to be scientific, which it obviously is, and naturally there is no attempt for it to be as such.  I don't think that this thread is in anyway attempting to determine "once and for all" who's overrated etc.. just a (hopefully) curteous and intellectual discussion of composers and various aspects of their works.  another morsal for thought, why does one have to expect finality or fairness, is musi itself final or fair? no, of course not.  Everyone sees something different in a piece.  I mean some people hear moonlight and lcpa their hands over their ears screaming "OVERPLAYED! GAH OVERPLAYED!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!" though personally, when it is artfully playe I cry everytime, because my mother would play it when I was a baby and I'd cry then because "it's too sad, mummy! too sad! stop playing that sad sad song".

I guess what I am so ineloquesntly saying is that I think that this thread is an attempt solely to express our thoughts a feelings about certain composers, pregnant dog about the ones that we think are under appreciated and whine about the ones that we think that if we hear it one more time, we will take an ax to the piano (Ie. canon in D)

[arbisley]

I perfectly agree with the idea of putting forward personal opinions, I think that's fine. When people start attacking other's opinions based on supposedly objective merit, I see no point in continuing the discussion if the sole aim is for people to repeatedly attack others on their beliefs jsut by picking on ridiculous things like spelling mistakes etc., which is what happened earlier in this thread. It has got a lot better recently.

Yes, just as you say, I absolutely despise Andrew Lloyd Weber, and I think the Phantom of the Opera is poor, but unfortunately my girlfriend, who is also a musician, is in tears when she watches the film, so I don't know what to say to her... I suppose it means something else to her, I just can't get past the cheesy semitone key changes every 3 minutes or so....

As i think I said earlier, I actually love almost any composer from baroque to late romantic, but I find it difficult to associate with what most contemporary composers do. It's just that in my very close knit family, I have always just "lived" the music of the past, and it makes sense to me, whereas modern music I have never much listened to and can not therefore appreciate as being part of my lifestyle or any particular feeling I can recognise.

It took me a while to get used to Rautavaara, but I think I can say that I love his piano concerto, especially as I listened to it once when I was fairly drunk and it seemed to me to be the best thing ever written, and sounded absolutely fantastic with the amplifying effects of wine 

[jas]

Someone may already have made this point, I haven't read the whole thread, but the term "overrated" is just totally flawed. Essentially, if you say that, for example, Liszt is overrated, what you're really saying is that it's ok for some people to like him - but not too many. As though there's some kind of set level above which a particular thing's popularity shouldn't be allowed to go.

Who's to say what makes a composer's works worth liking? And who's to say when the frequency with which a composer's works are performed moves into "overplayed" territory? Depends what you're into and what you're looking for. People prefer one piece or composer over another for many many different reasons - there's no right or wrong.

[moi_not_toi]

Yes, just as you say, I absolutely despise Andrew Lloyd Weber, and I think the Phantom of the Opera is poor,

 
Phantom? YOU HATE PHANTOM??? That's the only play by him I can tolerate! Woman in White was an insult to Wilkie Collins....

[minstrel]

Mozart is taking some damage in this thread..  Myself I agree, and much prefer Haydn at his best, as a fore-shadower of Beethoven. 

[Mozartian]

Mendelssohn, Brahms, Mahler, Schumann, Haydn

Die.

[franzliszt2]

I can't believe we are insulting Mozart!!!!!!!

[pagesong]

beethoven...

[elevateme_returns]

neither mozart nor beethoven should be insulted. they both wrote amazing music. far better than that of liszt.

[tradge]

neither mozart nor beethoven should be insulted. they both wrote amazing music. far better than that of liszt.

I would say different, but equally exhilarating

[maxreger]

what a bunch of children.

[mephisto]

True. No reason to say anything about all of these composer regardless if their name is Xenakis, Liszt, Reger, Mozart or Ornstein.

[elevateme_returns]

what a bunch of children.

im a child, dont know about the others. so, for me, thats a compliment!

[rallestar]

Now that's real mature, isn't it? Aristotle say: attack the subject, not the speaker.
Whose fault is it? No one's s***t happens, yo.

Of course, then again, I consider all music after Vivaldi and before Schubert to be crap (with few exceptions, like Beethoven)

You make the broad, stupid generalisation that Mozart's piano music sucks, then come talking about maturity?

Your comment about the music between Vivaldi and Schubert once again proves your ignorance.

Oh, and spelling errors don't "just happen"; They happen because some people have communicating and making sense of themselves.

[elevateme_returns]

True. No reason to say anything about all of these composer regardless if their name is Xenakis, Liszt, Reger, Mozart or Ornstein.

or smith. why did you leave out smith? have you got something against him? why would you do that? why?

[moi_not_toi]

You make the broad, stupid generalisation that Mozart's piano music sucks, then come talking about maturity?

Your comment about the music between Vivaldi and Schubert once again proves your ignorance.

Oh, and spelling errors don't "just happen"; They happen because some people have communicating and making sense of themselves.

No, sir brilliant, some people arent as great at typing as they think they are, ok?

So I don't like almost anything between Vivaldi and Schubert? Whatt're you goin to do, huh? Call the freaking music gestapo?

No opinion is stupid (because it's an OPINION. OPINION being the key word...  ) just becasuse you don't agree. If you don't agree with Hinduism, does that make it stupid? HUH?

Ok.
I'll give it up.

You like mozart.
I hate him.

That's no reason for me to hate you.

Truce? 

agg6

[steinwayb]

Another vote for Mozart- almost all of his music is hacknyed


Scott

[ganymed]

in my opinion it is Schumann and Mozart

[franzliszt2]

Another vote for Mozart- almost all of his music is hacknyed


Scott

hahahahaha yeh sure whatever have you even heard his music?

Why do people hate Mozart?

[slobone]

As far as the piano repertoire goes, I think the most overrated and especially overplayed has to be Liszt. When I were a lad he was considered a rather minor composer, and you didn't hear him much. Today every performance major has to learn him if they want to get their MA. And there aren't that many performers who can get beyond the technical aspect to really make him sound like a great composer.

Mozart is also overrated in the piano repertoire, but only because most of his solo piano pieces were written for amateurs to play at home. I think Haydn's sonatas are better by and large.

Schumann is also overrated, if only because he didn't know when to shut up. In most of his pieces he justs goes on and on. He should have done more miniatures like Chopin. Carnaval is a great piece, though.

Also extremely overrated is all "new age" noodling, whether by George Winston or Keith Jarrett or anybody else. But maybe I don't need to say that here...

[amelialw]

Why do people hate Mozart?

Because he's a music genius and his music requires a lot of intelligence and musicality to play... I love Mozart though.

[sevencircles]

Rachmaninov is propably the most overrated composer on this forum.

Josef Hofmann didnīt even think his third concerto was worth learning and I know where he was coming from when he said.

It is very overrated as well as most of his other works

Liszt did at least have something new to say at times

[rach n bach]

Rachmaninov is propably the most overrated composer on this forum.

 


 

[nicco]

Well you guys have soon mentioned every major composer. Well done.

[ahinton]

Rachmaninov is propably the most overrated composer on this forum.

Rakhmaninov is a member of this forum? Wow! I'll send him a PM right now...

Best,

Alistair

[sevencircles]

Rakhmaninov is a member of this forum? Wow! I'll send him a PM right now...

Haha, many people here think that Rach was one of the greatest composers ever and I just canīt agree with that.

As a composer he was average I think he was more talented as a pianist.

[elevateme_returns]

Haha, many people here think that Rach was one of the greatest composers ever and I just canīt agree with that.

As a composer he was average I think he was more talented as a pianist.

he wasnt one of the best ever. but he was very good

[thalbergmad]

Rakhmaninov is a member of this forum? Wow! I'll send him a PM right now...

Best,

Alistair

You might be the only person on this forum that could have met him.

Thal

[elevateme_returns]

hahahahaha

[slobone]

Rachmaninov is propably the most overrated composer on this forum.

Josef Hofmann didnīt even think his third concerto was worth learning and I know where he was coming from when he said.

That figures, cause Hofmann is the most overrated pianist -- all glitz and no soul.

Is there a thread for overrated pianists? Martha Argerich, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin spring to mind...

[slobone]

Why do people hate Mozart?

Because he's a music genius and his music requires a lot of intelligence and musicality to play... I love Mozart though.

Ooh, just to be clear, I love Mozart too and I love playing him as well.

But the question was, who is the most over-rated. A lot of people are now calling Wolfie the greatest composer of all time, which he was not, and especially not in the solo piano repertoire. (Piano concertos is a different story.)

[rallestar]

No, sir brilliant, some people arent as great at typing as they think they are, ok?

So I don't like almost anything between Vivaldi and Schubert? Whatt're you goin to do, huh? Call the freaking music gestapo?

No opinion is stupid (because it's an OPINION. OPINION being the key word...  ) just becasuse you don't agree. If you don't agree with Hinduism, does that make it stupid? HUH?

Ok.
I'll give it up.

You like mozart.
I hate him.

That's no reason for me to hate you.

Truce? 

agg6

So here's an opinion: I'm a better than composer than any composer mentioned in this thread.

Do you think that's a valid opinion, considering I've never written anything?

Of course it's not, it's stupid, because opinions can very well be stupid. Just like yours is.

[elevateme_returns]

smooth. that was well thought out