the most over played and overrated composer is...

[dnephi]

In the 1830s, Liszt was hardly the serious composer he came to be.

.

Chopin was a great composer, but his works were out of the reach of the technically hampered public.  Might these factors have played roles?

[thalbergmad]

Undoubtedly that was part of the reason.

The piano was the main source of entertainment in that period, especially in Paris where it has been estimated that there were 25,000 piano's in the 1830's.

The works of Liszt and Chopin were out of the reach of the average piano player and Hunten filled the gap and made a fortune with his easy to play whistle along to little ditties.

He was perhaps the Kylie Minogue of his day.

Thal

[elevateme_returns]

Brahms

ok i still have to pinch myself to make sure i'm really seeing this. you were joking werent you?

[dnephi]

ok i still have to pinch myself to make sure i'm really seeing this. you were joking werent you?

Soliliquy dislikes Brahms because he didn't compose most of his music after 1925.

[tullfan]

I can understand you saying that Mozart is overplayed, even though I disagree, but overrated??? I know it's cliche, but you can't disregard the incredible brilliance of the Requiem. Also, the 'dissonance' quartet  is so far ahead of its time it could almost be late Beethoven. His genius is incomprehensible.
As for my most overrated composer, probs a tie between Handel, Liszt (suicide on a piano forum, I know) and Sibelius.

[richard black]

Over-rated - Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Over-played - Chopin. If I had just one grain of rice for every unnecessary or plain Bad performance I've heard of poor Frederic's music......

[tullfan]

OH my god, I can't believe I didn't say Andrew Lloyd Webber, I agree completely!!!

[elevateme_returns]

Soliliquy dislikes Brahms because he didn't compose most of his music after 1925.

to be honest i don't think brahms composed any of his music after 1925

[opus10no2]

By that token Telemann is a superior composer then Bach, since he was by far the most popular and 'readily enjoyable' in his own time. I'd call superior something that is more readily enjoyed by people of distinction rather then the masses.

That's interesting, and certainly a viable viewpoint, but it's also elitist, and who is to say who the people of distinction are..?

Telemann is an incredible composer, his melodic gift and fluidity shows a gift greater than Bach in that respect.
Bach was a guru and an architect, but I certainly wouldn't say he was the greatest tune-writer of his day.

[elevateme_returns]

mozart is very overrated

i dont think he is overrated.  i would agree that some works are overplayed, but i don't think mozart could ever be called overrated.  he was a genius!

[opus10no2]

He is often considered among the 'big 3', and rating him that high is overrating him IMO.

Noones saying he wasn't a genius...

It'd be interesting to see what he'd be like as a romantic composer, born up to 100 years later.

[bench warmer]

Right, remember,  Mozart's keyboard was way less than 88-keys; it wasn't until Beethoven that  keyboards started to get larger (in terms of added keys).

Size maybe ain't everything, but it helps.

[amelialw]

Beethoven is overplayed especially in exams&competitions

[webern78]

and who is to say who the people of distinction are..?

Other people of distinction, of course. And what's wrong with elitism?

Telemann is an incredible composer, his melodic gift and fluidity shows a gift greater than Bach in that respect.

Too bad 99% of Telemann's melodies are wholly forgettable. What's the point of having a high melodic gift if you can't be bothered to write something meant to last more then a few listening?

[pianowolfi]

Completely true.

In the 1830's the composer Francois Hunten sold more sheet music than Liszt and Chopin put together.

Now (apart from me), who plays Hunten?

Thal

I think he's an ancestor of mine even. Though I have never played something by him, I admit. Btw do you know Julius Weismann? He is also an ancestor of mine. Underrated in my opinion.   I love his "Lullaby". And his "Fugenbaum" is a very interesting piano work.

[tradge]

I find myself in complete agreement with soliloquy.

In addition, Schumann should be wiped off the face of the earth and completely erased from history.

Thal

Absolutely not!! Have you heard his Cello compositions?? You ain't heard nothing, mate!

[sevencircles]

He is often considered among the 'big 3', and rating him that high is overrating him IMO.

Noones saying he wasn't a genius...

It'd be interesting to see what he'd be like as a romantic composer, born up to 100 years later.

Agree

The greatest thing he ever composed was his fugue in D major and that is the only thing that is up there with the greatest works by Bach and Beethoven if you ask me

The only reording I found of it is the one below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGSGMJMX7p8

[oscarr111111]

I'd call superior something that is more readily enjoyed by people of distinction rather then the masses.

Write a pop* song.

Granted, there is a lot of tripe in that genre that is put out with the sole intention of sounding like whatever the 'flavour of the month' in the charts is, but I'll bet there were as many classical pieces written and discarded as there are bad pop* tunes released solely to sell records to idiots then forgotten in a month.

There have been MANY extremely talented and deservedly popular artists however, who are no less 'sophisticated' than composers of classical music.

*I'm grouping all 'popular music' under this name, not just 'chart pop'.

[elevateme_returns]

I find myself in complete agreement with soliloquy.

In addition, Schumann should be wiped off the face of the earth and completely erased from history.

Thal

a bit harsh maybe? i like the op 17 fantasie, and the fantasy pieces for cello (/clarinet) & piano.

however in my opinion clara schumann was much better

[silyaznfoo]

If you think Brahms is a bad composer I think you should see a shrink

What are some good pieces by Brahms =p, imo they're all inferior to Chopin.

[tompilk]

What are some good pieces by Brahms =p, imo they're all inferior to Chopin.

piano quartet op. 25? Piano pieces Op. 117 - Op. 119? Rhapsodies Op. 79? Piano Concerto No. 2? The piano concerto alone is better than both the Chopin Concerti in my opinion
It's still a matter of opinion.
Tom

[elevateme_returns]

What are some good pieces by Brahms =p, imo they're all inferior to Chopin.

WHAAAAT. i cant think of a single chopin work that is superior to any brahms. perhaps ballade 4 is better than some of the lesser known miniatures.

but brahms op 117-119 is godly, chopin doesnt come near it

[elevateme_returns]

He is often considered among the 'big 3', and rating him that high is overrating him IMO.

Noones saying he wasn't a genius...

It'd be interesting to see what he'd be like as a romantic composer, born up to 100 years later.

just out of interest who would you say were the top 3?

mine would be bach beethoven & brahms

[sportsmonster]

just out of interest who would you say were the top 3?

mine would be bach beethoven & brahms

There would probably be a difference between top composers, and top "piano composers".
To mention Bach,mozart and beethoven. I concider them the tops, but for piano, i find bach and mozart less intresting IMO. I would play them in early years for tecnical exercises, but later i would move more toward chopin, liszt and rachmaninov...(my top 3 piano composers) beethoven is top composer, but for piano, im not totally sure.

Liszt, rachmaninov and chopin is all much overplayed.
Clementi is much underrated. I read that in competitions between clementi and mozart, they would get tied. Witch clementi would be concidered as great as mozart.
 
Other very underrated composers: Stephen heller, chaminade, alkan, jensen adolf, and griegs more unknown works etc etc.

[elevateme_returns]

well ok obviously bach wrote for harpsichord, but id still say that beethoven & brahms were top. maybe liszt then.

[rubbaducky42]

Grieg is definitely underrated. And next year is the Grieg centennial; everyone play Grieg!

I would say that Liszt is a very important piano composer, as is Chopin; even though they may be considered overplayed and/or overrated, piano music was completely different after them.

Brahms, overrated?!!

[elevateme_returns]

wow next year ? good ive been wanting to learn the holberg suite for ages, such a fabulous set of pieces.

if we're talking outside of piano. .. 

i would go with beethoven purcell and mahler

[tompilk]

its unusual. I just saw garrick ohlsson performing Brahms 2, and my auntie didn't enjoy it as much as the Schumann Rhenish symphony. It sounded like the charge of the light brigades in the second movement to me. I almost cried within the first 30seconds of the Brahms. She didn't like it so much.
How come I wonder? Is it just the immediacy of the appeal? Are the melodies to long and drawn out in the brahms? i struggle to understand, because im just in love with the brahms. The chinese man next to me conducted to himself throughout the whole piece.
Stunning performance for me... its also going to be broadcast on radio later if you are interested.
Tom

[imbetter]

some of these comments by elevateme are utter rubbish

[soliloquy]

Soliliquy dislikes Brahms because he didn't compose most of his music after 1925.

Right.  That's why I also hate Liszt, Chopin, Scarlatti etc.


I hate Brahms because his music is pedestrian, simple and obvious.  Brahms is the romantic-era equivelant of a highschool course in Harmony, with about as much structural and harmonic creativity as Vaughn Williams on his worse days.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Liszt, rachmaninov and chopin is all much overplayed.

Ultimately, a lot of composers can become "overplayed" when people insist on trotting out the same old pieces time and time again. In Liszt's case, that would especially be HR2 and Liebestraume no.3.

[thalbergmad]

Brahms is the romantic-era equivelant of a highschool course in Harmony, with about as much structural and harmonic creativity as Vaughn Williams on his worse days.

Bit of an insult to Williams, but accurate.

Thal

[mephisto]

Thalberg was of course a better composer than Brahms

[thalbergmad]

Thalberg was of course a better composer than Brahms

Indeed he was not, but he is hardly overplayed is he.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Thalberg was of course a better composer than Brahms

Indeed he was not, but he is hardly overplayed is he.

Thal

Only by me 

[mephisto]

Indeed he was not, but he is hardly overplayed is he.

Thal

That I can agree upon.

I have a recording of Hamelin playing Thalberg's Fantaisie I - Sur Les Huguenots de Meyerbeer op 20. It is a kickass piece, particulary the allegretto section. I can give you the recording if you don't have it already.

[elevateme_returns]

some of these comments by elevateme are utter rubbish

*** you. im expressing my opinion. which comments are rubbish?
we were talking composers that werent piano based, right?

well, i think for orchestral, beethoven and mahler are top. maybe mozart jupiter fits in there, but its only one piece.

and for choral, purcell. listen to works like the music for death of queen mary. or in particular the anthem hear my prayer o lord.

the other one i said was for piano, (or harpsichord..) bach, beethoven and brahms

thats because in my opinion, the WTC books, the beethoven late sonatas and brahms op 118 and 119 are the greatest things written for the keyboard. in my opinion.

so whats utter rubbish about any of that?

please, do go ahead, correct me on my own opinion. who are the greatest 3 then oh master of all musical knowledge. who copies chopin studies for his own compositions

[elevateme_returns]

Right.  That's why I also hate Liszt, Chopin, Scarlatti etc.


I hate Brahms because his music is pedestrian, simple and obvious.  Brahms is the romantic-era equivelant of a highschool course in Harmony, with about as much structural and harmonic creativity as Vaughn Williams on his worse days.

but the simplicity is the beauty of it. the late pieces work as a set, one after the other, from 118 - 119. on their own, they dont have the same effect .  brahms' music is hardly obvious though.

[soliloquy]

but the simplicity is the beauty of it. the late pieces work as a set, one after the other, from 118 - 119. on their own, they dont have the same effect .  brahms' music is hardly obvious though.

Ah well then we are going to be disagreeing simply on the aesthetic, as I personally rarely enjoy simple and motivicly repetitive pieces of the romantic era, no matter who the composer is.  I know a lot of people do like that, but they simply don't elicit any real emotional reaction from me other than "when will this piece be over?"  It might be because I have a slightly short attention span ^^;  I would much prefer to listen to say, the Liszt Ballade No. 2, with all of its twists and turns and layers and myriad of ideas, than a Brahms Sonata, that seems to only produce one idea per movement, if you know what I mean.

[pita bread]

Right.  That's why I also hate Liszt, Chopin, Scarlatti etc.


I hate Brahms because his music is pedestrian, simple and obvious.  Brahms is the romantic-era equivelant of a highschool course in Harmony, with about as much structural and harmonic creativity as Vaughn Williams on his worse days.

but the simplicity is the beauty of it. the late pieces work as a set, one after the other, from 118 - 119. on their own, they dont have the same effect .  brahms' music is hardly obvious though.

What are you two talking about? 85% of Liszt's output is far more simple, pedestrian, and obvious than Brahms'. 

[soliloquy]

What are you two talking about? 85% of Liszt's output is far more simple, pedestrian, and obvious than Brahms'. 

Specifics plz.

[elevateme_returns]

What are you two talking about? 85% of Liszt's output is far more simple, pedestrian, and obvious than Brahms'. 

hey, i didnt say brahms was more simple than liszt. all i said was that the simplicity of 118 -119 is the beauty of it, because they are perfectly written pieces when next to one another.

even though i prefer liszt to chopin, im not a big liszt fan.

[elevateme_returns]

some of these comments by elevateme are utter rubbish

come on then ! whats rubbish?

[webern78]

even though i prefer liszt to chopin

The absurdity of this thread never seem to end...

[elevateme_returns]

The absurdity of this thread never seem to end...

how? i dont understand whats absurd about the quote you posted

[franzliszt2]

What are some good pieces by Brahms =p, imo they're all inferior to Chopin.

Erm....the late pieces? the concerto's are better than Chopins concerto's imo.

Thalberg was of course a better composer than Brahms

hahahahahahahaha yes of course. Thats why Thalberg is known to non pianists as well as Brahms. Have you even heard a Brahms symphony? The cello sonata? The VIOLIN SONATAS???  Brahms op116-119? Op76? The concerto's? And thalberg has to offer??? some riddiculous "virtuosic" transcriptions of crap pieces.

That I can agree upon.

I have a recording of Hamelin playing Thalberg's Fantaisie I - Sur Les Huguenots de Meyerbeer op 20. It is a kickass piece, particulary the allegretto section. I can give you the recording if you don't have it already.

yes kickass piece, not sublime like Brahms.


Most overplayed doesn't mean bad, I wish people would realise that. If anything, the Hammerklavier is underplayed. How many people do we see playing that?? How many people here could sing the middle section of the 3rd movement from memory right now? this very second.

 

What are you two talking about? 85% of Liszt's output is far more simple, pedestrian, and obvious than Brahms'.

Most of liszt's compositions are simple. Hungarian rhapsody's, etudes, concerto's, the transcriptions, schubert songs....compared with most of Brahms. Have you ever done an analysis class on Brahms? You'll soon find that he was very clever and incredibly complex.

[mephisto]

franzliszt2 are you joking!?

Of course I think Brahms as acomposer is about 1000 times better than Thalberg. The rolling of the eyes should make it clear that i was being sarcastic.

But I still think that some of Thalberg's operatic fantasies are great and should be played more.

Brahms' Concertos alone make him one of the best composers of all time.

[elevateme_returns]

although im not a fan of the last movement of the 2nd...  its kinda sh*t

[franzliszt2]

franzliszt2 are you joking!?

Of course I think Brahms as acomposer is about 1000 times better than Thalberg. The rolling of the eyes should make it clear that i was being sarcastic.

But I still think that some of Thalberg's operatic fantasies are great and should be played more.

Brahms' Concertos alone make him one of the best composers of all time.

oh sorry. I missunderstood you hehe. I didn't see the rolling of the eyes.   

[moi_not_toi]

Beethoven.

Seriously, I don't see why he's so effin great anyway. Plus EVERYONE plays Beethoven even if it's that god-fosaken piece of crap Fur Elise.

I hate beethoven with a passion, bach isn't great either though, but most people feel that way, so very few in my area play him for enjoyment (although most of his fugues are delightful)