the most over played and overrated composer is...

[amelialw]

I agree that Rachmaninoff was more talented as a pianist. My teacher has a record disc of Rachmaninoff playing Bach's Partitas and Chopin's Etudes, they are simply brilliant. Anyway tons of practise does not make you better, you have to listen to music...

[sevencircles]

That figures, cause Hofmann is the most overrated pianist -- all glitz and no soul.

His earliest recordings are brilliant, his late ones are not not to great since he was drinking a lot at the time.

Hofmann is far from the most overrated pianist, David Helfgott, Lang Lang and Kissin come to mind on the other hand

[jakev2.0]

That figures, cause Hofmann is the most overrated pianist -- all glitz and no soul.

Is there a thread for overrated pianists? Martha Argerich, Glenn Gould, Evgeny Kissin spring to mind...

I have heard every known Hofmann recordings in existence (minus Marston Volume 9), and the claim that the pianist is "all glitz and no soul" is absolute insanity barely meriting rebuttal. My advice is: get a musical education, get your ear trained, learn to play the piano, or find a happy combination of the three. I hope you are ignorant, because ignorance is easier to overcome than stupidity.

[amelialw]

ahh, this is getting stupid. just stop...everyone has different opinions

[sevencircles]

ahh, this is getting stupid. just stop...everyone has different opinions

best post in the thread so far 

Writing fugues and fugatomovements is something I have tried personally and it was much harder then i thought.

Composers who can write great fugues and counterpointmelodies  are usually the greatest in my book

A 3 year old can come up with great melodies but only a a true master can make a mirrorfugue of these melodies

[elevateme_returns]

exactly. and thats exactly why mozart is not bad. last movement last symphony, 5 voice fugue

[moi_not_toi]

So here's an opinion: I'm a better than composer than any composer mentioned in this thread.

Do you think that's a valid opinion, considering I've never written anything?

Of course it's not, it's stupid, because opinions can very well be stupid. Just like yours is.

If it IS your opinion, then yes, it's valid.
Only because it IS...yours. Not because it's true or not.
Mine is stupid to you, because you don't understand my reasoning, which is purely my fault.

All opinions are valid, as long as they're believed by at least one person. I believe God is dead. My opinion is valid, although some would say not true.

Reasons why Mozart sucks at piano music:

1) As compared to Haydn and Handel and the Early Beethoven (which I don't like either), he simply OVERplays the era's style, like the Baroque (as in too much) version of Classical music, if you will.

2)He gets stuck on themes. They show up OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER, he just changes a note here and there so he can say it isn't the same.

3) As an orchestral composer, he just lacks the ability to give his piano music the oomph that he gives his orchestral music.

I don't hate Mozart, I hate his piano music, and even that opinion has exceptions.

[thalbergmad]

I don't hate Mozart, I hate his piano music, and even that opinion has exceptions.

I must admit that i am of a similar opinion, although i would restrict myself mainly to his solo works.

Haydn, Clementi, Dussek and C P E Bach provide me personally with greater pleasure.

Thal

[elevateme_returns]

I believe God is dead.

you mean to say... the earth and everything wasnt created in 6 days??? 

[amelialw]

For the last time Mozart does'nt suck, your opinion does...

[slobone]

Hofmann is far from the most overrated pianist, David Helfgott, Lang Lang and Kissin come to mind on the other hand

Hmm, now I can't remember why I even said that. I actually do enjoy listening to him although not as much as many of his contemporaries.

But, there are certainly people who call him the greatest pianist who we can judge from recordings. Since I don't agree, that would make him overrated in my book.

[slobone]

I have heard every known Hofmann recordings in existence (minus Marston Volume 9), and the claim that the pianist is "all glitz and no soul" is absolute insanity barely meriting rebuttal. My advice is: get a musical education, get your ear trained, learn to play the piano, or find a happy combination of the three. I hope you are ignorant, because ignorance is easier to overcome than stupidity.

Well, you've proved you can express your opinion in a forceful way... and that's about it. It's OK, I'm used to that kind of reasoning on the Internet...

[moi_not_toi]

you mean to say... the earth and everything wasnt created in 6 days??? 

Heavens no! It was created over a vast amount of time. The 6 days theory is, as I shall put bluntly, since we're ALL slinging mud now  , a way for people unable to comprehend such vast periods of nothingness to shrink it down into a more manageable size.
My question for Christians is: If God REALLY is all powerful, why can't he lengthen the days to contain what we would now consider millions of years? Why not prolong the length of the rotation of the earth? He can't do that? Then he's really not ALL POWERFUL, now is he?

But that's beside the point.

For the last time Mozart does'nt suck, your opinion does...

For god's sakes, i've tried and tried to explain why opinions are opinions, and although not your own doesn't mean they suck. But I'm tired of trying, since I'm getting nowhere, so I give up.

Have it your way. I don't really care what ya'll think of my taste in music anyway. It's MY taste, not YOURS.

Not that either of us really care about it that much anyway.

And now that I've successfully stomped on everyone's toes that I can think of, I think i'll go on a bit of a vacation. Toodles.

[sevencircles]

[exactly. and thats exactly why mozart is not bad. last movement last symphony, 5 voice fugue/quote]

A very short fugato that is.

I didn´t notice it until I knew about it actually

very hard to compose such a thing though

[letters]

a lot of vivaldi sounds exactly the same and is quite repetitive. he wrote something like 500 sonatas. we sang a choral piece by him at school and it was the most boring piece we'd done for years.

[rach n bach]

hahaha... yeah... no vivaldi please

[elevateme_returns]

vivaldis not so bad. cello & violin stuff is good

[ceplumb]

Mozart is definitely the most over-rated. I don't get what's so amazing about his stuff. It's very repetetive and predictable. Beethove is much better.

[counterpoint]

vivaldis not so bad. cello & violin stuff is good

especially the famous Allegro 

[chopinfan_22]

Considering that Chopin wrote solely for the piano, you can't say that he is overplayed for that instrument. That's all he wrote for, so you should almost expect to hear his pieces.

I would have to say... Mozart or Beethoven. Possibly Bach, but I'd go with Mozart first.

[rallestar]

Heavens no! It was created over a vast amount of time. The 6 days theory is, as I shall put bluntly, since we're ALL slinging mud now  , a way for people unable to comprehend such vast periods of nothingness to shrink it down into a more manageable size.
My question for Christians is: If God REALLY is all powerful, why can't he lengthen the days to contain what we would now consider millions of years? Why not prolong the length of the rotation of the earth? He can't do that? Then he's really not ALL POWERFUL, now is he?

First of all, you must be too stupid to understand elevateme's irony.

Second, your view is typical of a wannabe-intellectual atheist, with only primitive pseudoscientific arguments, that really rely more on your own idea of religion and only serves to show a huge lack of knowledge in the area.

Oh, and the answer to your nonsensical questions: Why would he? Fact is that it is impossible to prove that a God exist.

And to think you were the one who were trying to be shallowly openminded before, and then come here with your childish, unfounded criticism of religion, trying to impose your view as fact. I hope your vacation is a lengthy one.

[richard weaver]

I think there are two types of overrated composer/compositions- The ones that are played too much and the ones that aren't really played very much but that for some reason people tend to talk about as if they had written something very important. In the first category I think we have pieces like the alla turca by Mozart and in the second category composers like Stockhausen and Boulez spring to mind.

[gerry]

Any and all of the persons who have "composed" rap.

[ryanyee]

Beethoven

rubbish! u should be the one who should be erased from the face of the world. and schumann's great for special individuals to appreciate anw.

[slobone]

If we're going to bump this thread, do I get to say Liszt again?

[indutrial]

Any and all of the persons who have "composed" rap.

Whoa, good for you. What an incredible and seemingly effortless cheap shot. I suppose you could produce and mix a better album than the studio-trained professionals who arrange the music and mixes for rap artists like Outkast, etc..., but you're simply too busy being the obviously amazing and stunningly relevant musician you are.

It should go without saying that plenty of rap and electronica composers are far more compelling, creative, and talented than most of the washed-up hack "classical" composers who weasel around on this forum talking s**t as if they're automatically superior by virtue of their 80-times-removed relationship with Beethoven and Mozart.

[s_bussotti]

Brahms and Mahler

[gerry]

I suppose you could produce and mix a better album than the studio-trained professionals who arrange the music and mixes for rap artists like Outkast, etc..., but you're simply too busy being the obviously amazing and stunningly relevant musician you are.

Cumon Indutrial, you're capable of better than the tired old "I suppose you could do better" argument - seems to pop up regularly on this forum when disagreements arise. I merely responded to the question by stating that I consider rap over-played and over-rated - I didn't imply that it had no artistic merit or that it doesn't have a place somewhere in our kaleidoscopic world of "composition". But, I see by your somewhat characteristically churlish reply, that you were anxious to jump to the defense of an imagined attack on your viewpoint.

Incidentally, your use of the words "studio-trained professionals", "produce," "mix," and "arrange" doesn't particularly constitute an effective argument for original artistic compositional merit.

BTW, thanks for the compliment - "obviously amazing and stunningly relevant musician" - I can live with that.

[gyzzzmo]

I only think that Chopin is abit overplayed (not saying overrated ofcourse). Seems to be hardly any concert where people are NOT playing pieces like Chopins 4th balad :s

[s_bussotti]

Incidentally, your use of the words "studio-trained professionals", "produce," "mix," and "arrange" doesn't particularly constitute an effective argument for original artistic compositional merit.

Well, I really, really, reallllly hate rap, but I have to disagree with the assertion of this statement.  Implying the compositional technique of an "artist" is inferior to another technique infers an entirely biased viewpoint, which you hypocritically debase the merits of indutrial's statement on.  It would be similar to saying... oh... that Xenakis or Murail are not artists, because they are, in effect, "mixing", albeit in an assuredly more complex fashion.  Not to say I don't find indutrial's comment hilariously unprovoked.

[gerry]

I keep going back to the original question regarding "composer". Having worked as a studio musician in Hollywood and as a post-production audio consultant with Oscar-winners, I would never debunk the technical artistry of these people. What I was responding to was the defense of rap by citing the the post-production people rather than defending the "composer" or "composition" if you will - I apologize if that sounded like it pitted one technique over another - and I certainly hope I don't appear "hypocritical" after this clarification.

BTW, would you please clarify and elaborate on your statement regarding Xenakis and mixing - I don't understand what his composition has to do with studio mixing. Thanks.
Gerry

[indutrial]

Well, I really, really, reallllly hate rap, but I have to disagree with the assertion of this statement.  Implying the compositional technique of an "artist" is inferior to another technique infers an entirely biased viewpoint, which you hypocritically debase the merits of indutrial's statement on.  It would be similar to saying... oh... that Xenakis or Murail are not artists, because they are, in effect, "mixing", albeit in an assuredly more complex fashion.  Not to say I don't find indutrial's comment hilariously unprovoked.

While I was definitely in a sour mood when I made that post  I will still say that blasting rap musicians contributes little to the purpose of discussing who is or who isn't an overrated composer in a classically-geared thread. Targetting rap composers just seems unnecessary since the demands of rap production don't really call for the kind of compositional output that is going to competing for promotion in the world of recital halls and classical CD releases (with the exception of the shameless Vitamin String Quartet tributes of Eminem, Dr. Dre, whatever else is selling, etc..).

It would be just as nonsensical if someone were to start talking about how John Williams, Nobou Uematsu, Kenny G. or Billie Joe Armstrong is overrated. Well, of course they are. Their individual genres are immensely more popular and market-friendly than the most treasured and ingenious output of the classical music scene. Since the classical world is obviously very self-dependent, any question of over-rated/under-rated would do better than to pull its answer from the inside-out. Plus, the post asked for a "composer", not for a vague category that suggests (and I'm sure this wasn't his/her intentions) enough of this forum's annoying prejudices to sink a ship.

[slobone]

I'd rather listen to a great pop recording, even rap, than yet another mediocre version of the Mozart concertos, or the Goldberg Variations, or Chopin, or Liszt (God forbid).

But it depends what mood I'm in. At 3 in the morning I love to watch music videos. In the middle of the afternoon I'd rather play the piano myself than listen to just about anything. And I lower my standards considerably for a live (classical) performance. Even some local yokel with moderate talent is more enjoyable to listen to than most recordings.

[lmpianist]

I agree that Mozart and Chopin are overplayed relative to the quality of their piano compositions (personal opinion).  There are a few real gems from Chopin (fourth Ballade, two of the sonatas, and the Etudes), but most of the rest to me seems cliche to the point that I usually get bored listening to recordings unless the pianist does something really unique.  I think that the Mozart sonatas are not as good as his concertos, so I like it when a program includes Haydn instead.  I disagree that Mahler is overplayed, at least in the US.  Most orchestras, if they manage to do any Mahler at all, will only do one symphony a season, versus at least one or two major orchestral works by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, etc.  It takes enormous resources to do even one (and well worth it, IMO).  At piano recitals, Beethoven is played frequently but I don't think this is a bad thing (same argument can be made for Bach).  Grieg is underplayed.  Bruckner is highly underplayed.  That's all I can think of off-hand.

[lisztisforkids]

I dont think that some composers are neccesarily overplayed, just that  many good composers are underplayed.

[redbaron]

In my opinion Mozart is by far the most overrated and overplayed composer. Overrated in the most staggering magnitude. His piano music is utterly dull. Insipid. Vapid. Twinkly. Emotionless. Dead.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone but it's simply the way I feel. Mozart was a genius, without question but I find his music so repetitive and samey.  He seemed to write mostly in major keys and not very interesting keys at that. The sonata in Am and the sonata in Cm are the exceptions and I'm quite fond of these two works but the rest of it...

[indutrial]

I dont think that some composers are neccesarily overplayed, just that  many good composers are underplayed.

This is likely not as important on this forum because people mostly just want to piss and moan about things they don't like. It's more important to pick apart everyone's individual quibbles about Mozart and Liszt than to figure out ways to breathe new life into the repertoire.

[slobone]

I agree that Mozart and Chopin are overplayed relative to the quality of their piano compositions (personal opinion). 

When you say "I agree" I hope you don't mean you agree with me. I never indicated there was any problem with the quality of Mozart and Chopin's pieces, just that too many people are performing them who have no business doing so. Actually I should probably not have mentioned Mozart here because some may remember me saying in another thread that I thought poor recordings of him were rare. And some may not...

[pk]

withoutadoubt Sorabji every time he is played is one too many

[thalbergmad]

Oh dear, off we go.

Thal

[s_bussotti]

withoutadoubt Sorabji every time he is played is one too many

PK's great insight into the Chopin Piano Concerti:

They are beautiful but boring they certainly doesnt reach the level of the music he wrote after ending the.

Please oh genius, tell us who else you don't like so we know what we shouldn't be listening to

[ahinton]

withoutadoubt Sorabji every time he is played is one too many

Oh dear, off we go indeed (if I may quote Thal); "one too many" for whom, might I ask? And if that is the case, that's a awful lot of broadcast, performance and recording royalties to be returned as well as compensatory payments to be made to ticket-buying, record-buying and broadcast licence paying folk the world over, is it not? (and the fact that some of those payments haven't actually been paid as they should have been shouldn't make any difference in principle, should it?). I think that, if you really believe that, you should consult a brace of high-powered intellectual property lawyers and a bunch of private detectives in order respectively to try to redress past issues and ensure that none of his music ever gets put before the public again, don't you?

Dammit, I just took you seriously! (not...)

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

withoutadoubt Sorabji every time he is played is one too many

Poking the finger at Sorabji is like the Budweiser WHAASSSSUUUPPPP of this forum.
It's not funny anymore.
It was barely funny to begin with.
Get over it.
F**king troll.

[ahinton]

Poking the finger at Sorabji is
...
not funny anymore.
It was barely funny to begin with.
Get over it.

I know - tiresome in the extreme, is it not? Never mind. We move on. Easily.

Best,

Alistair

[dnephi]

Why don't we poke fun at Satie?  He was trying to make it easy.

I've been tempted to play vexations, just to drive people crazy.

Daniel

[chopinmozart7]

mozart

[chopinmozart7]

schumann 

[thalbergmad]

schumann 

That would be my vote.

Teutonic trash of the worst kind.

Thal

[healdie]

Handel i find his works just so preditable some are great but others are very forgetable they lack that subtelty found in many other composers works I don't listen to him and discover somthing new with each listen

I also find Mozart (especially piano works) way too predictable and safe he doesn't seem to take any risks and apart from Opera he did not really change anything in music he copied the styles developed by Haydn J.C Bach and others before him

As Einstein once said "any fool can make somthing bigger, better, and more agresvie but it takes a touch of Genius to move something in the oppisite direction"

and personnally i find Mozarts music very old fashioned kind of like reading Shakespeare it is not relevent any more and sounds kind of dorkish when played it would sound good if you closed you eyes and pictured yourself inside an 18th century court wearing a powderd wig but then you open your eyes and your down the Nags head with a pint of watery beer that cost a fortune

[kelly_kelly]

Don't you guys have anything better to do? I just read the last page and brain fluid was leaking from my ears.

IT'S OPINION, GUYS.