Obama or McCain?

[morningstar]

Heh, I haven't met a man yet who is...

Ouch. Ever heard of a thing called a stereotype?

[pianochick93]

Ouch. Ever heard of a thing called a stereotype?

I said I haven't met one yet, not that they don't exist.

[morningstar]

I said I haven't met one yet, not that they don't exist.

Hmmmm. Still sounds bad though

[ahinton]

Heh, I haven't met a man yet who is...

That's true. We haven't met.

Best,

Alistair

[minor9th]

  It is simple.  Why do you support gay marriage.  That's all i'm asking. 

It simply boils down to it's nobody's business which orifice people use to deposit DNA and derive a few moments' pleasure. I happen to do that with a woman, but I see nothing "wrong" with two men or two women enjoying themselves and being legally protected:at least they love and are committed to each other. Citing it's "wrong" in the fictional work known as the "Bible" doesn't make it right. If the "Bible" said to ingest feces, would you?

Wait: You're that woman at the McCain rally who said Obama was an Arab!  Aha--I thought you sounded familiar!!

[pianistimo]

Religion is no worse than politics or sex - and all of them create controversy of some kind.  You can't say - religion is worse to talk about than politics - because Christians see both together.  If our country is or was 'under God' then - the liberties we have are restricted by some laws.  If you believe that God made us and made the institution of marriage (which, btw, never came around in the animal kingdom) - then you might believe that certain orifices were the 'innie's' and others were the 'outies.'  But, then again - i cannot possibly be rational.

From a supposedly irrational creationist mind - i also say that I believe that God created us in HIS image.  Male and female.  If it was another image - who's is it?  Death.  Think about it.  No life can be created by two of the same sex.  It represents another mystery.  We have yin/yang - life/death - there aren't any middle choices.  Read Revelations.  The life part has to do with God creating marriage as an example of a mystery of how the Church conceives with the help of the Holy Spirit - children for the kingdom of God.

People can choose whatever they want under man's system of government...but if you want to be a part of the kingdom of heaven - or kingdom of God here on earth there are higher laws than the laws of man.  That's my argument. However, in our current system - people don't worry about whether or not they are written in the book of Life.  They only consider this finite human life which lasts about 70 years.

Homosexuality was introduced again right after the flood!  Ham was aware of it and 'when noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him...'  God immediately commands curses on that sin - and blessings on those that haven't.  It's not really a 'well, you can prove from the bible it's ok to do.'  It's not.  There is no place in the bible which provides room for a Christian homosexual relationship or marriage with the blessing of  God.  However, Jesus Christ makes room for all - when the Holy Spirit fills you with truth.

[thalbergmad]

If the "Bible" said to ingest feces, would you?

It is a pity the Bible does not say "run under a train" as our resident fanatic would do so.

People like her start wars and kill millions and will take every opportunity to spout their bigoted evil.

If she is against taking it up the bum, you would have thought she would also be against talking out of it as well.

Thal

[healdie]

didn't God create all humans? therefore he must have created Homosexuals

anyway whats the problem according to the bible the only sin that is unredemptable is blastphemy so you can't go to hell or anything

[pianistimo]

A fanatic goes beyond the boundaries of what is considered the 'norm.'  I don't think I have mis-read the bible.  Tell me, Thal - what exactly is a fanatic?  In America - we are all given the opportunity to have a choice.  A fanatic would not allow another person a choice on the basis that they are mentally unstable.  What a sad situation.  The nazi's used that one already!

The reason God put laws in the bible for mankind is so that we would be happy and healthy.  There's a lot of substance to the idea that feces and sex don't go together. Beyond this, though, God also goes into the 'minds' of humans.  He says to women - 'don't dress like a man.'  And, to men 'don't dress like a woman.'  So what do people do?  Say there is no GOD.

[cherub_rocker1979]

I don't agree with the whole homosexuality thing, but as a sinner, it's not my place to judge others.  Every human being has the right to decide what they believe and live their lives as they wish.  I've had many gay friends and I accepted them for who they were, just the same way that they accept me even when I've had too much baijiu.

[pianistimo]

We're all sinners - but hey, voting for a President that upholds the constitution in the manner it was conceived (under God) is asking for  God's blessing on our country. Don't you wonder why it is now cursed? Deut. 28:15 'but it shall come about, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe and do all His commandments and statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you....'  Moses goes on to list all of them.  They include many things which have been and continue to happen in our country for the last 10-15 years.  The last few years, however, have been extremely bad.  Weather incidents, floods, etc.  People say 'global warming' 'global warming.'  Why don't they wake up to the idea that there IS a God. How else did they get here?

[thalbergmad]

A fanatic goes beyond the boundaries of what is considered the 'norm.'  I don't think I have mis-read the bible.  Tell me, Thal - what exactly is a fanatic?  

Perhaps not mis-read, but in your case mis-interpret.

You live your life on its every word and refuse to believe that any of its meaning might have been lost in translation. You are blinkered, single minded and would deny the Kingdom of Heaven to anyone who does not think and do like yourself. Like any fanatic, you never miss an opportunity to spit out your poison even when other have asked that you keep your warped views to the correct threads.

You are as dangerous as Bin Laden.

Thal

[pianistimo]

The difference between believing what Bin-Laden espouses and what Jesus Christ espouses is that fairness is not in the hands of men - but God the Father. 

[thalbergmad]

The difference between believing what Bin-Laden espouses and what Jesus Christ espouses is that fairness is not in the hands of men - but God the Father.

Good, so why don't you leave fairness to God then and shut the hell up?

You do not speak for Jesus or God, you only speak for you.

Now please do us all a favour and stick your head in the microwave.

Thal

[cherub_rocker1979]

The bottom line is that we have to vote for the person who is best for everybody in our country and the rest of the world.  So everyone get out there and vote!!

[pianistimo]

Only the rest of the world when taxes are paid to the 'rest of the world' - or europe.  As i see it - America came about when people decided they didn't want to pay such high taxes to England.  Now, with Obama - we're literally saying - 'please tax us, Europe.  We want to be part of a world system.'

What rights will people have under the United Nations?  Which btw, hasn't done a dastardly thing for Georgia.  What is going to happen to my dear state Alaska.  God help us if Obama sells it.  Also, Europe is under the fair eyes of the pope.  That means - your health care is all Government funded - which many times is Catholic Medical Centers (wherever they are): https://www.unpan.org/Regions/NorthAmerica/PublicAdministrationNews/tabid/118/mctl/ArticleView/ModuleId/1473/articleId/15424/The-Ugly-Truth-about-Canadian-Health-Care.aspx

You see, the Vatican doesn't pay taxes.  That's why funds go back and forth between Italy, Vatican city, other European coutries - etc - it's like a church mafia.  Now, some might get angry - but the best they could do is disprove what is actually very difficult to disprove.  They, of course, have a hand in government BECAUSE OF MONEY.

ALL the systems of this world are corrupt at this point anyways.  Whomever becomes President cannot change all the things that already are. It's like dominoes.  They will fall slow or fast - but at the end things speed up.  It's just inevitable that our Presidency will mean squat.  However, we are told to pray for those in power in our countries and that God will give them wisdom.  If they don't have God - they have nothing -literally - to hang on to. 

[thalbergmad]

Congratulations, you actually posted without mentioning God.

See, you can do it if you try.

Well done.

Thal

[cherub_rocker1979]

What is going to happen to my dear state Alaska.  God help us if Obama sells it. 

I don't think he would have enough power to do it even if he wanted to.

[m]

Congratulations, you actually posted without mentioning God.

See, you can do it if you try.

Well done.

Thal

Mmmmm, it seems you missed: "God help us if Obama sells it."  
As a side note, this remark reminds me Russian fashist-nationalists, whose slogan is "Jews sold Russia".

Best, M
 

[thalbergmad]

Mmmmm, it seems you missed: "God help us if Obama sells it."  

It was not there when i wrote

Our resident fanatic has a habit of changing her posts.

Thal

[ahinton]

Religion is no worse than politics or sex

There are those who would counter that by suggsting that politics is worse than religion and sex is better than either...

- and all of them create controversy of some kind.

No, they do not. Nor can they. Only people can create controversy. Yes, they can indeed from time to time do so around any and/or all of those three subjects, but the subjects themselves cannot actually cause anything.

You can't say - religion is worse to talk about than politics - because Christians see both together.

Here you go again, talking as though religion and Christianity were one and the same thing exclusively (in other words, no mention of any other religions); anyway, many Christians do not see both of these things "together" as though they are somehow ineffably linked to one another.

If our country is or was 'under God' then - the liberties we have are restricted by some laws.  If you believe that God made us and made the institution of marriage (which, btw, never came around in the animal kingdom) - then you might believe that certain orifices were the 'innie's' and others were the 'outies.'  But, then again - i cannot possibly be rational.

I'm perfectly certain that you could if you both chose and tried, but not everyone - not even everyone that believes in God - actually does believe that God "made" these things" in any case.

From a supposedly irrational creationist mind - i also say that I believe that God created us in HIS image.  Male and female.

One would not need to have such a mind in order to say this but, although you obviously believe it, not everyone does and, in any case, if that had really been God's intention, He probably thinks that He's made an appalling mess of it. Anyway - "male and female"? How is that "in His image"? Isn't God supposedly sexless, even though you and others use the male appellation for Him? Or do you believe that "He" is actually bisexual, or something?...

Think about it.  No life can be created by two of the same sex.  It represents another mystery.  We have yin/yang - life/death - there aren't any middle choices.  Read Revelations.  The life part has to do with God creating marriage as an example of a mystery of how the Church conceives with the help of the Holy Spirit - children for the kingdom of God.

Susan, that is you belief, I know - and I would not for one moment seek to dissuade you from it - but scientific research has ensured that life can indeed now be created in ways other than those to which we have become accustomed over the millennia. Your idea of God "creating" marriage makes no sense to me; marriage itself is a Man-made legal contract entered into by two consenting adults (except in the case of certain forced marriages in certain countries) and I do not think that your idea that it is instead a "creation of God" sits easily alongside the notion of "render unto Cæsar the things that are Cæsar's and render unto God the things that are God's", do you?...

People can choose whatever they want under man's system of government...but if you want to be a part of the kingdom of heaven - or kingdom of God here on earth there are higher laws than the laws of man.  That's my argument. However, in our current system - people don't worry about whether or not they are written in the book of Life.  They only consider this finite human life which lasts about 70 years.

Of course there are laws higher than those of Man; after all, Man's own laws have developed over the years and some of them have improved. The latter part of what you write makes no sense to me either, for we cannot in practice consider anything beyond our human lifespan - we can only consider what we do during that lifespan. Human life, incidentally, can last a lot less than 70 years in some places and a lot more in others.

Homosexuality was introduced again right after the flood!  Ham was aware of it and 'when noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him...'  God immediately commands curses on that sin - and blessings on those that haven't.  It's not really a 'well, you can prove from the bible it's ok to do.'  It's not.  There is no place in the bible which provides room for a Christian homosexual relationship or marriage with the blessing of  God.  However, Jesus Christ makes room for all - when the Holy Spirit fills you with truth.

This first statement is a sad return to the Susan's Soapbox school of non-thinking. You make it sound as though someone "introduced" homosexuality all of a sudden just as you might introduce one of your friends to another. Perhaps this Ham (not M. Hamelin, I hope!) should have had some of that wine, too. Perhaps you should also. There is no place at all in the Bible for 21st-century society and its pressures and demands, its joys and its woes; indeed, how could there be? In any case, I'm no Bible scholar, admittedly, but I didn't think that there was much of a place in the Old Testament for a "Christian" anything in any case. Not everyone seeks the blessing of God on their marriages; in most present-day societies, agnostics and atheists have as much right to marry as do religious people, just as religious people are entitled to marry non-religious ones. There's certainly nothing in the Bible in any case that makes marriage or procreation compulsory.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

ALL the systems of this world are corrupt at this point anyways. 

None moreso than the Church, even the church of the fanatical weirdos where you go.

Thal

[ahinton]

We're all sinners - but hey, voting for a President that upholds the constitution in the manner it was conceived (under God) is asking for  God's blessing on our country. Don't you wonder why it is now cursed?

Oh, so if America had not secured independence, would the country not be "under God", as you put it?

Deut. 28:15 'but it shall come about, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe and do all His commandments and statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you....'  Moses goes on to list all of them.  They include many things which have been and continue to happen in our country for the last 10-15 years.  The last few years, however, have been extremely bad.  Weather incidents, floods, etc.  People say 'global warming' 'global warming.'  Why don't they wake up to the idea that there IS a God. How else did they get here?

At least you spare us the Moses list. Whatever catastrophes have occured in recent times, what about the plague? the ice ages? - and another list not compiled by Moses? We don't talk about "global warming" so much as "climate change" in any case; if you believe that Man is not responsible for any part of that, you are as misguided as those who believe that it's all mankind's fault.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Alistair - as usual - you confound me.  You are one of the few people - of whom i must take at least an hour to contemplate what you say.  However, we agree to disagree.  I believe that the affairs of government are in the hands of God - and Abraham Lincoln thought so too - so I am in good company.  Of course, if you know Hamelin personally - you are in good company as well.

Though it's true the glaciers are melting - God controls the power and energy of the sun and one of the curses of Revelation 16:8-9 is that men will swear at the intense heat from the sun.  It is said to be one of the things that God gives power to the angels (or one angel) to pour out on the earth.   It's like those things totally become supernatural events and not something that has a cycle.

the verse goes like this: 'and the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire, and men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they did not repent, so as to give Him glory.'

Now - some might say - what does this have to do with Obama and McCain. My point is that Obama is for MORE government.  McCain is for less government - more freedom of choice - and especially FREEDOM OF RELIGION.  World governments typically have a world religion. How free is that.  Force someone to be part of a 'world religion' - and it's the only religion taught in the schools that your children are forced to learn from.  It's just not freedom.  If you complain - your freedom of speech is compromised.  Bible and God - American History - faith of our fathers - burn the books.  burn the flag. That's the motto of the 'new world order.'

[ahinton]

Congratulations, you actually posted without mentioning God.

See, you can do it if you try.

Well done.

Thal

Not so. She mentioned Him twice, once in each of her last two sentences. Clearly, you either didn't read her post to the end or you were not concentrating.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Alistair - as usual - you confound me.

Not as much as you perplex me.

You are one of the few people - of whom i must take at least an hour to contemplate what you say.

But why? Nothing that I've written here takes more than a few seconds to grasp.

However, we agree to disagree.  I believe that the affairs of government are in the hands of God - and Abraham Lincoln thought so too - so I am in good company.  Of course, if you know Hamelin personally - you are in good company as well.

I do indeed know him well - but you did not know Lincoln. Like you, Abraham Lincoln had a right to think what he liked, but the affairs of government even in his day could hardly be in the hands of God when not all Americans were believers in Him (God, I mean - not Lincoln).

Anyway - back to McCain and Obama, anyone?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Not so. She mentioned Him twice, once in each of her last two sentences. Clearly, you either didn't read her post to the end or you were not concentrating.

Not so. She went back and added to her post which i explained above.

You obviously did not see this when you were writing your thesis.

Thal

[ahinton]

Not so. She went back and added to her post which i explained above.

You obviously did not see this

Indeed, I did not realise that, for she had evidently already made the said amendments by the time I first read the post concerned.

when you were writing your thesis.

I have neither done this nor need to do so.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Sometimes you feel like you know a person by what they write and their speeches.  Lincoln's gettysburg address is one famous one.  But, there are more things that he said that get the point across - that he depended very much upon God and prayed to Him.  Here's a site which gets the crux of what Lincoln believed:
https://www.greatamericanhistory.net/lincolnsfaith.htm
In his own words, no less.

[db05]

The reason God put laws in the bible for mankind is so that we would be happy and healthy.

What if it is this law that is making people unhappy? Not that G-d does not exist, but not everyone agrees with YOUR interpretation of the Bible.

Only the rest of the world when taxes are paid to the 'rest of the world' - or europe.  As i see it - America came about when people decided they didn't want to pay such high taxes to England.  Now, with Obama - we're literally saying - 'please tax us, Europe.  We want to be part of a world system.'

What rights will people have under the United Nations?...

You see, the Vatican doesn't pay taxes.  That's why funds go back and forth between Italy, Vatican city, other European coutries - etc - it's like a church mafia...

ALL the systems of this world are corrupt at this point anyways.  Whomever becomes President cannot change all the things that already are. It's like dominoes.  They will fall slow or fast - but at the end things speed up...

So it's hopeless? You know the world order is inevitable. How encouraging. It seems as though your G-d has already cursed everyone anyway.

For some reason, I would prefer Obama. Not to diss Mccain, but Obama winning means something.

[pianistimo]

Dear Dbo5,

Now, this might get controversial - but i really don't think that liberal and/or gay lifestyles that might promote easy access to pot, sex with whomever, marriage to two of the same sex, children who don't know their parents, children born from sperm bank donors/receipients - causes happiness.

In fact, i would say that a majority of psychological cases come for counseling for some of those reasons alone.  Take for instance, the issue of children born that never EVER will know their father.  That's not happiness.

I do believe that happiness comes from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit fills a person with joy.  There is no other way to have that kind of joy.  Sure, people have sex.  People have fun.  Minutes of pleasure.  But, is it lasting.  Do they feel happy an hour from now.  If you want to have a pleasureable feeling all day - deny yourself something and give to someone else.  Fast and Pray.  Denying oneself is not necessarily what is promoted in a liberal agenda always.  However, there are those that work both sides of the fence.  Make movies that promote one thing - while feeding the poor.  How about combining it all?  Morality, love, spirituality, and God?  Otherwise, it's all for naught.  We die.  We are judged.

Ps Christians are judged harsher - as the bible says some enter at the last hour - and have the SAME reward.  There isn't an 'out' for anyone really - excepting to repent and turn from things that God says are wrong.  Right and wrong do not exist in today's society. It's supposedly 'hurting someone's feelings.'

I believe that the election is wayy less strategic than the 'one world order' already in place.  The election is merely a diversion.  If Obama wins - we have a fast 'in' to the one world system.  The system itself IS anti-Christ.  That means - the words of Jesus Christ are combined (whored) with all the religions of the world (including wiccan - which is worship of Satan).

[db05]

Now, this might get controversial - but i really don't think that liberal and/or gay lifestyles that might promote easy access to pot, sex with whomever, marriage to two of the same sex, children who don't know their parents, children born from sperm bank donors/receipients - causes happiness.

Mixing up different issues here. You know, half of these problems aren't in our country. Since the "church mafia" is still pretty much in control. Suggest you move here and leave the poor westerners alone. 

There is no gay marriage here. No easy access to drugs. No sperm bank, as far as I know. Not even divorce. Christian heaven!

And yet people are suffering. Big time. I'm not even going to talk about the plight of Jews throughout history. But something is terribly wrong with how religious people and government. They should be kept totally separate, imo.

[pianistimo]

But that's my POINT!  in America - religion is a free subject.  In a world regulated system which is Authoritarian totally (and don't tell me the pope isn't authoritarian, too - to other religions!) - religion, education, entertainment, regulation - are all government functions.  Entertainment in Roman times was a perk for those that served the government well.  If the world system today combines 'holy' with 'roman' - it will be a world government under a dictator who will then have no use for the pope.  The pope is merely the audience catcher.  Rev. 17:16-18

In early rites - the Roman soldiers actually drank the blood of Christians. that is why the bible mentions 'and I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints.'  but, the early  'church ' was MITHRAIC.  That means, they thought that the 'life was in the blood' and also that they might obtain the holy spirit by drinking the blood of saints. It's really backwards - but check out the catecombs!  also, check out the teachings of Simon Magus.

Now, you might say - what does that have to do with today.  Would you believe there are many cultic things going on as we speak in GOVERNMENT.  The one world order is an order that was preserved down through the ages in many guises.  You don't have to name any - just look for the word 'order.'  There are many.  If you see them - be skeptical!  It's just a name for a process that involves the combination of christianity with mithraism and rites of passage.  Simon Magus stuff.

[db05]

But that's my POINT!  in America - religion is a free subject.

Which is why I'd still prefer US to my home country. I prefer liberty to religious fanaticism. 

If the world system today combines 'holy' with 'roman' - it will be a world government under a dictator who will then have no use for the pope.  The pope is merely the audience catcher. 

You mean the Holy Roman Emperor of medeival times? 

If you're trying to speak against the Catholic Church, I don't mind (I don't go to church anyways  ), but all religions, esp. Christians are the same to me. How can we be so sure that some group won't try and conquer the world?

To turn to relgious discussion now: 

I do believe that happiness comes from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit fills a person with joy.

A popular belief, yes. That's not how I got it before, though. Joining a school-based religious group, I was taught that a Christian life isn't all flowery. And to expect persecution. I believe this is more realistic. I do admire your courage. But don't go telling us that we'll be any happier. It is a choice between a sad thing and another sad thing. To see that and choose also takes courage.

Ps Christians are judged harsher - as the bible says some enter at the last hour - and have the SAME reward.  There isn't an 'out' for anyone really - excepting to repent and turn from things that God says are wrong.  Right and wrong do not exist in today's society. It's supposedly 'hurting someone's feelings.'

Yes we were having a dinner-table debate on that recently. My brother is more reasonable than I am; sorry if I'm not making sense. It's a parable. What is weird about this particular parable is that it doesn't apply to the real world. I mean you can take any other parable literally and say it's true, but not this one. Being late for work is not ethical.

In this case I'd rather believe in a kind G-d who gives chances out of generosity. Not someone who judges His followers harsher... 

I also get into arguments with a certain devout Christian, who is also quite a fanatic sometimes. (Imagine bringing G-d in a music lesson!) But instead of no right/wrong there's the law. He sees this law either followed or broken. Just like in old times. I think you're wavering. Your pessimism getting the better of you. This makes me worry. There is still right/wrong in this world, even atheists believe that.

And sometimes, not "hurting someone's feelings" is a lot harder than following God's law... 

[thalbergmad]

Now, you might say - what does that have to do with today. 

BUGGER ALL

[G.W.K]

You lot love arguing amongst yourselves! LOL

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

I suppose that it's best to stay on topic - and yet - i somehow feel that this is part of the topic.  Will the 'one world order' bring peace and stability?  My husband and I are agreed on McCain- my two older children would vote Obama (though one is not voting age yet).  We have round table discussions, too.  It's good.  Just to agree to disagree.  I say my mind - my son and daughter think that Obama wouldn't cause the country any harm and prefer him.  My step-father is unspoken (perhaps he didn't want to get into an argument?  Perhaps I should learn from him and not speak - but then it sometimes just wells up in me. I want to say what I believe because maybe it will make a difference to someone else.  Or, could well sway the vote to the other side.

As i see it - judgement is soundly God's. I don't think that I am in a position to judge the catholic church or the pope.  But, if they are imitating something badly - i just say it like it is. I say - don't worship someone who tells you you need a priest.  What do you need a priest for?  Jesus Christ IS our high priest.  And, in the new world order- all this will be done away soon enough (as soon as it's not needed anymore).  Because to have a world order means really NO religion at all. In that sense, John Lennon in his song 'Imagine' was prophecying the same thing as revelations - in the end of the 'beast power.'  There are no 'rules' that way - and being 'under God' would be nixed from everything.  All constitutions (btw, it has in most countries now!)  I suppose then we will fully understand the term anti-Christ.

I forgot to respond to what you asked about judgement of God to us personally.  The bible says Christ is coming back to judge this world. He will be King.  In rev. (sorry to quote so much) 18:4 'and i heard another voice from heaven saying, come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues....'  Judgement is first at the house of God - or Christians who profess to know God - so that means we are judged now. Why? because He says right here that we might not participate in the final judgements of God on this earth.

[db05]

I suppose that it's best to stay on topic - and yet - i somehow feel that this is part of the topic...
In that sense, John Lennon in his song 'Imagine' was prophecying the same thing as revelations - in the end.  There are no 'rules' that way - and being 'under God' would be nixed from everything.  All constitutions (btw, it has in most countries now!)  I suppose then we will fully understand the term anti-Christ.

I think this is more suited to the anti-christ thread.  And you can further clarify your opinion.
I actually like "Imagine" and I think it's an optimistic view. Just don't think too much. 

[ahinton]

I suppose that it's best to stay on topic - and yet - i somehow feel that this is part of the topic.  Will the 'one world order' bring peace and stability?  My husband and I are agreed on McCain- my two older children would vote Obama (though one is not voting age yet).  We have round table discussions, too.  It's good.  Just to agree to disagree.  I say my mind - my son and daughter think that Obama wouldn't cause the country any harm and prefer him.  My step-father is unspoken (perhaps he didn't want to get into an argument?  Perhaps I should learn from him and not speak - but then it sometimes just wells up in me. I want to say what I believe because maybe it will make a difference to someone else.  Or, could well sway the vote to the other side.

Well, this series of admissions at least shows that, in your own domestic environment, you are willing to "agree to disagree" - by which fact one must assume that you have the flexibility of mind to accept that others, even those close to you, may espouse views that may differ diametrically from your own. That is good. I, for example, have to deal with all the stuff that you write here and try not to be rude and reject your thoughts out of hand, because that would achieve nothing useful and would at the same time suggest that I don't even give a fig for why you think as you say you do. I just wish that you could somehow find it in your heart and intellect to transfer something of the benefit of that experience over to your position here on this forum and, if you made more of an effort to do so, I think that you would garner considerably more respect.

As i see it

As soon as and whenever you come out with this phrase my eyes glaze over and I feel like giving up...

- judgement is soundly God's. I don't think that I am in a position to judge the catholic church or the pope.  But, if they are imitating something badly - i just say it like it is.

No, Susan - you say it as you think it is.

I say - don't worship someone who tells you you need a priest.  What do you need a priest for?  Jesus Christ IS our high priest.

So if we do not need a priest, why do we need Him? (I'm not suggesting that some of us don't - just asking why you put it this way).

And, in the new world order

What "new world order"? What makes you surmise that there is so much as a snowball's chance in Hell of such a thing?

NO religion at all. In that sense, John Lennon in his song 'Imagine' was prophecying the same thing as revelations - in the end.  There are no 'rules' that way - and being 'under God' would be nixed from everything.  All constitutions (btw, it has in most countries now!)  I suppose then we will fully understand the term anti-Christ.

A rubbishy song that should not even be drawn into any serious dicussion of the kinds of issue to which you draw attention here and which, I remind you once again, bears less than no direct relation to the question of whether Obama or McCain should be President of the US or whether anyone inside or outside the rapidly dwindling US even cares. As someone recently put it, "whatever anyone may persuade themselves to believe, it remains true that, when America coughs, the rest of the world still catches cold; the trouble with that is, however, is twofold, in that America no longer has much left to cough up and Europe is in any case on the brink of discovering a cure for the common cold". Tell that to the ghost of Abraham Lincoln who (if you believe it the afterlife) must at the very least be reeling at the prospect that the US dollar, whether or not in its antediluvian "in-God-we-trust" format, is on its most uncomfortable deathbed.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Anti-deluvian? Quite descriptive, you are, Alistair.  OK. well, the dollar isn't healthy.  The dollar has lost it's gold standard long ago - it's just that we finally recognized the sickness with a bunch of losing manipulations in the market, with real-estate, and bad banking practices.  The  few sudden gains are not attributable to printing our own money (i don't think) - it is the buying of foreign currency that now keeps us afloat.  We're losing 63% of the dollar's value - right?  Maybe it varies from day to day - but generally - we'd just like to be frozen right now as we are and not let it get as worse as it might in one, two , three weeks or months.  Not even years!

[thalbergmad]

My step-father is unspoken  

The poor man probably does not get a chance

[ahinton]

Anti-deluvian? Quite descriptive, you are, Alistair.  OK. well, the dollar isn't healthy.  The dollar has lost it's gold standard long ago - it's just that we finally recognized the sickness with a bunch of losing manipulations in the market, with real-estate, and bad banking practices.  The  few sudden gains are not attributable to printing our own money (i don't think) - it is the buying of foreign currency that now keeps us afloat.  We're losing 63% of the dollar's value - right?  Maybe it varies from day to day - but generally - we'd just like to be frozen right now as we are and not let it get as worse as it might in one, two , three weeks or months.  Not even years!

A large part of the economic/financial problems not only in US but elsewhere has for many years been down to an attitude of mind that one can buy one's way out of them by printing more money, irrespective of whether or not that money could ever realistically be hoped to acquire any kind of meaningful value. Anyway, you can't have such "freezing" now as you might either advocate or hope for, since actual climate change is well reflected in economic/financial climate change; we've gotten used to a boom-and-bust expectation but, like the weather, these cycles are now occurring faster and more frequently than ever before. Live with and through it. Don't ask God's help, because it sure ain't His fault; nowhere in the Bible does it say that God created the banks, the Federal Reserve, the IMF et al...

Best,

Alistair

[richard black]

That means - the words of Jesus Christ are combined (whored) with all the religions of the world (including wiccan - which is worship of Satan).

Eh? Wiccans don't talk about your judaeo-christian prophets and demigods, you know. In fact they don't really talk about deities much at all, it's mostly about 'spirits' which may be just as specious but are nevertheless very different. It was only ever the paranoia of early proponents of the 'christian' church that made wiccans (and other north-Europe pagans) out to be worshippers of the so-called devil of the bible.

[morningstar]

Anti-deluvian? Quite descriptive, you are, Alistair.  OK. well, the dollar isn't healthy.  The dollar has lost it's gold standard long ago - it's just that we finally recognized the sickness with a bunch of losing manipulations in the market, with real-estate, and bad banking practices.  The  few sudden gains are not attributable to printing our own money (i don't think) - it is the buying of foreign currency that now keeps us afloat.  We're losing 63% of the dollar's value - right?  Maybe it varies from day to day - but generally - we'd just like to be frozen right now as we are and not let it get as worse as it might in one, two , three weeks or months.  Not even years!

There! She avoided religious wording! Assuming that anti-deluvian isn't a religious word...

[ahinton]

There! She avoided religious wording! Assuming that anti-deluvian isn't a religious word...

No - just a mis-spelt one (by Susan, not by me, incidentally)...

BACK TO THE TOPIC, ANYONE??? There's only a few hours left for it, after all...

Best,

Alistair

[morningstar]

No - just a mis-spelt one (by Susan, not by me, incidentally)...

BACK TO THE TOPIC, ANYONE??? There's only a few hours left for it, after all...

Best,

Alistair

Ah. Yes. The topic. Really, is it tomorrow?

[soderlund]

I think Obama will win... I really, really hope so as well.

[morningstar]

Judging by the general consensus I assume Obama winning is a good thing?

[ahinton]

Whatever the outcome, it has for some time been widely reported (not that one can depend upon trusting journalists, of course, but I take leave seriously to doubt that so many of them in such a large number of countries including US itself have conspired to speak with one voice on the matter) that the principal single issue that is engaging people the most is not religion or even economics but race; persistent references to a single side of religion (a particularised expression of the Christian one) in the specific context of this topic can therefore only be regarded as the expression of a blinkered and disproportionate response to the general concerns of the American electorate, so it would be a welcome and necessary diversion for us all, Americans and non-Americans, to see these giving way to discussion of the issue that most people regard as being of paramount importance. I hope that the hint can be taken, but I fear that a litany of past expderiences leads me to doubt it...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

How can it REALLY be race if Obama is 1/2 white anyways.  I don't think race plays into it - but it's being USED.  The race card is very convenient.  It's like saying - I must run the government because of my race.  He denying any black-panther racist affiliations, or connections with shady people like ayers, because they 'do not influence his politics.'  That's kind of funny because it is whom you are with that makes you known as to what you deep down believe.  And, if you buy homes, use their acorn system, listen to their version of history - you might add to it - how the constitution should be changed, burn the flag, and never say the pledge of allegiance - or just sort of slump and turn to the side.  Take the flag off your lapel.  Things like that. 

OK.  Some might say Mc Cain slumps too, but notice - never when he salutes the flag.  This is what i mean by 'voting for a world system.'  Obama has never once used his harvard law degree to teach people the constitution is fair and just.  He makes a point to degrade things that are AMERICAN.  He is for a one world order.  Just wait and see.  The first thing to go will be freedom in the sense of decisions.  He is an authoritarian.

President Bush is often degraded because people don't like that went into Iraq.  But, Saddam Hussein is gone.  A huge threat to world peace.  History isn't on the American side anymore because apparently people like authoritarian figures.  They can all fight together more properly.  Bin-Laden apparently is not caught because Pakistan likes him.  So...what will happen.  If he can't get to america - bombings will take place wherever he thinks embassies are and they will be in foreign countries that harbor him and his terrorist.  They get a bit of their own 'love' back - but the thing is -McCain knows what freedom is about.  It's not about lovey love - it's tough love.  You don't say - here - take our money but we require nothing of you.   Love is usually reciprocated - and when it is not - how can you run a country effectively by making the same mistakes over and over.  Obama would play right into the hands of terrorists.