Obama or McCain?

[ahinton]

It's not a sin to be religious

You and your sin! No, of course it isn't - just as it isn't to be non-religious or follow a religion different to yours (of which there are many).

- and it's certainly within people's rights to believe whatever they want to believe.

It is with immense pleasure and relief that we note your admission to that!

But, can you literally change the constitution on a whim?  That is what i'm talking about.  You have many religions - but one basis for the constitution.

But, as I have tried to point out previously, the constitution that pertained at the time of American independence was supposed to serve the American people at that time, whereas the racial, religious and all other makeup of America today is almost unrecognisably different. Seeking to set a constitution in stone forever is potentially, if not actually, inhuman to the extent that one would surely not seek likewise to set in stone the humans that it is supposed to serve.

It's based upon freedom for aLL.

Freedom from what? In any case, your "founding fathers" would have had no notion of what "all" would come to mean in 21st-centurey America - nor indeed could they be expected to do so.

Now, buddists won't tell you this - but they are anti-women.  They make their nuns walk barefoot.  Muslims are wayy more intolerant of gays in terms of laws.  Sikh's - well, think about those toasted women when their husbands get tired of them.  Some of these religions are not exactly what the doctor ordered in terms of getting justice 'for all.'

And the Christian one is perfect, is it? If is were so, why is it divided into so many factions - Catholic, Orthodox, high- and low-church Protestant, Baptist, Methodist, United Reformed and so on and so on and on?

As I see it - as an American - we have much to protect and defend.  Not just ourselves but freedom itself.

Americans do not have the exclusive right to do this, you know!

We are not 'lay down and die.'  We are 'fight to the end and then die.'  Why give it all away.  The 'status quo' that Obama talks about is DIALOGUE.  Exactly what he proposes.  That's not good enough.  How about a shot in the arm.  Do you think Saddam Hussein would have dialogued?  Do you think our American men died for OUR freedom. No. They died for Iraqis to be free of terror in their own country and for women to finally have the rights that they deserve.  Not just democracy- but basic human rights.  If they don't want democracy as we see - that's ok.  But, at least  Saddam and his crew aren't taking down their own people right and left.  He was CRAZY.

Many people have died as a direct consequence of involvement, deliberate or otherwise, in the Iraqi troubles of the last few years; these include Britons, Italians, Germans and others, not least Iraqis themselves, as well as Americans.

I have no desire to shoot you in the arm, Susan (and don't possess a gun with which to do so in any case), but abit of dialogue occasionally might help to dilute your entrenched inflexibility of thought; try it some time!

Best,

Alistair

[db05]

McCain understands this.  Obama thinks he is personally the greatest thing to walk the planet.

I hate this kind of righteous speculation. Only G-d knows what these politicians are thinking. For all we know, they might be BOTH thinking otherwise. 

PS pianistimo: How can it be that your God 'of love' agrees with all the stuff those 'prophets' said, like the 'consuming enemies with His fire' and other death and misery involving actions? Especially when considering that we're all suposed to be His children?

I don't know which Christian sect she belongs to, all I know is it's not Catholic. I have seen different types of believers, but I've never met any Christian who can say G-d is love and the US should go to war in the same breath.

See, I'm baffled! 



pianistimo, please don't get hysterical if Obama wins, I beg you. I do love you and care about you. If you don't believe me, please look at the previous posts and see who is getting hurt by all this.

[pianistimo]

Basically, all through the bible - enemies would start by grabbing land.  The Israelites would try to make terms of peace.  The land would be fought over when the terms of peace were not accepted.  This has been a 'standard' for israelite nations throughout history.  Fairness is making terms of peace first.

About Obama - watch his debates.  He is not a modest person.  He is radical.  Do you think I am radical.  How about radical for destroying the very country you want to be President of.  That is pure pompousness.  His historical version of America is 'we are wrong in everything.'  That is pompousness too.  His version of the constitution is that 'it needs to be changed.'  His idea is that America needs to be 'changed.'  Changed to what?  That is pompousness.  I think he is in need of repentance.  He doesn't see G-d in history and that G-d allowed the nations that exist to day to have great blessings because they once worshipped the true G-d.

Tell me what other country has sent so much foreign aid (including food) to other countries.  All people talk about is 'war' war - but do we START civil wars in other countries.  No.  These people cry for help and then bite the hand that sends aid.  Do we care about AIDS? YES.  Many people have gone to africa including doctors/nurses - etc.  This is such a ridiculous claim that we don't help anyone.  Ridiculous.  And, pompousness.  If Saddam Hussein was still in power - would the world be a safer place?   That is what Obama suggests.  That dialogue makes for world peace.  It doesn't.  It takes the brains of a person who has common sense to figure out that world peace - as it stands under mankinds' rule - is not going to be about talking with terrorists.

[ahinton]

The constitution mentions the 'Creator.'  The ideals of the constution are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That we are 'endowed' with rights that don't come from man - but God!  That we are created equal.  What other countries have freed slaves?  There are still many slaves in  Africa itself within it's own boundaries and to it's own people.  Witness diamond mining.

America has not only freed slaves but harboured them within its own shores; some might argue that, to some extent, the latter still applies to some people...

This system provides for many things - but with freedom comes responsibility.

Indeed it does, although in all your frequent references to "freedom" you studiously avoid mention of freedom from exposure to bigotry...

There are many places in the OT where G-d miraculously roots out enemies.  The enemies typically start the fight. Japan bombed pearl harbor before anything happened to them.  They are no longer enemies because i think we both understand. There have even been some fighter pilots that have met with the other side and made peace - and visa-versa - because they understand that the warfare of this age isn't really fair.  As you say - bombing innocent people and making them burned beyond belief is really saying that humanity doesn't deserve to exist.  And, yet - whomever has the bomb will use it.

But who IS the "enemy"? Anyone who instigates a war will be regarded by the other side as the "enemy". Whoever has "the bomb" (and that may eventually be many countries) will be at least as likely not to use it as to use it, especially since the damage that would be done by its use knows no boundaries.

Death is a concept that came into the world by sin.

Nonsense! It is a biological inevitability - or rather it has been so to date but may not always be so.

G-d mentions in Revelations that the entire world's system (banking, government, etc) will be under the control of Satan completely.  It has been for a long time.  That is why Satan asked Jesus Christ if he wanted all the kingdoms of the world at the time He came the first time.  It wasn't his 'time.'  His time is after mankind has already been persuaded that war is the only answer.

Where in Revelations does God say this? And who are you (since you are not God) to claim that "the entire world's system" has already been under such control "for a long time", from what facts do you deduce this, when did it occur and how?

And, yet - if we do not fight for our country - who will?  Not G-d anymore because we deny His power.  Churchill did not deny God's power. Roosevelt did not.  Lincoln did not.

I don't think that Churchill fought directly for your country, you know! But the point here is that all of these leaders believed in God. That's fine; they were entitled to do that, just as others were/are entitled not to or to subscribe to a religion other than that to which those leaders subscribed.

And, neither does McCAin.  McCain has more honor than Obama has sitting at the table eating dinner.  I do not think that Obama thanks G-d for his food.  It just appears.

You don't "think" - but what do you actuaqlly know of this? ANd to what extent does it matter whether one contender for the American presidency says grace before eating and the other doesn't? - even if we can reasonably assume that to be the case...

We deserve everything we have?  No.  God gave it to us!

So we humans gave ourselves nothing?

The rulers of this world are there because G-d allows them to be

So much for the freedom granted by the constitution to each citizen to vote as they please in his/her country!

McCain understands this.

Well, whoopty-doo. I don;t understand it - at least not in terms of the US constitution and the voting rights that it confers...

Obama thinks he is personally the greatest thing to walk the planet.

Does he? Well, he's wrong, of course, because we all know that you are!

Oh. And about warfare.  I happen to think that under the current systems and laws - warefare will be outlawed by Obama and then someone will bomb us.  All our shields and defences will supposedly be 'anti-peace.'  Playing right into the hand of Russia when they complained about that - however it won't be Russia to do us in according to the bible.  It will be our friendly peaceable neighbors that are supposed to keep the peace and bring peace to the world. 

Beating swords into ploughshares, anyone? (not that present-day farmers in developed countries need the latter, of course, but)...

Today, as almost everyone knows, is election day in America. Whatever the outcome, may I humbly wish the best to the American people and the best hope that the future will brighten for them - and yes, Susan, of course that includes you...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Thank you, Alistair.  I hope that for all intensive purposes that people see through Obama's words to his actions.  Sorry for calling him pompous everyone.  Happy voting.  (and yes, i do have strong views).  I suppose that if i have to 'eat crow' as they say - i would rather it be that Obama turns to G-d in humility and prayer and actually leads our country in  manner fitting of a President and not a dictocrat.  That is if he wants to be the next Lincoln.

Leadership is a huge word.  I think it means leading by action.  Anyone can walk around and talk.  Not everyone can grab the moment. 

And, about oil.  Who runs the oil prices?  That means we didn't actually get any oil from any war that makes it cheaper.  So...in the end we fought for Iraq's freedom.

May the men and women of our military be placed in honor at their graves and in their returns home which NEED support and money.  Not ignoramus moves that deny them benefits.  Obama will not support the military.  If you want to be a FREE Christian nation - vote for someone who was in a prison camp and wouldn't leave until his buddies returned.  Thanked G-d to be back on US soil and appreciates blessings.  Adopted a foreign child.  Does many thoughtful things without thinking twice.

People don't suddenly change overnight.  The record of someone's life is exactly that.  What they stand for. McCain is consistent.  He hasn't waivered much and really stands for what he did - 20 years ago. or more.  And, he isn't THAT old.  You know his mother is wayy older and she looks 50.

About bias - how about Palin.  Was there any bigotry or bias in interviews with her?  If you think Obama was put over the grill - think about questions that were presented to Palin.  That was over the top.  Palin, in almost all instances was deferential to the idea that government is FOR the people.  In almost all instances where Obama is asked direct questions - he looks down and hemms and haws because he is for authoritarian government which controls many aspects that are currently free.  INCLUDING BANKING.  We could easily take back our own economy - but not under Obama.  You see, the rich people actually bailed us out.  What if there weren't any (under Obama's plan)?

[pianistimo]

What incentive will there be to work in a socialist system?  None!  And, because there will be such a lack of jobs - Obama and a depression could go together.  McCain and Palin could easily bring about some decent change by cutting government spending and waste.  That is the only way to revive the economy right now. 

[ahinton]

Thank you, Alistair.

You're welcome.

I hope that for all intensive purposes that people see through Obama's words to his actions.  Sorry for calling him a pompous * everyone.  Happy voting.  (and yes, i do have strong views).  I suppose that if i have to 'eat crow' as they say - i would rather it be that Obama turns to G-d in humility and prayer and actually leads our country in  manner fitting of a President and not a dictocrat.  That is if he wants to be the next Lincoln.

You make Obama sound as though he is an atheist; are you certain of your ground here?

Leadership is a huge word.  I think it means leading by action.  Anyone can walk around and talk.  Not everyone can grab the moment. 

There's no arguing with that.

Obama will not support the military.

Even if that is correct, what was it that I said about swords and ploughshares?...

  If People don't suddenly change overnight.

No, but we'll give you abit longer than that...

About bias - how about Palin.  Was there any bigotry or bias in interviews with her?  If you think Obama was put over the grill - think about questions that were presented to Palin.  That was over the top.  Palin, in almost all instances was deferential to the idea that government is FOR the people.  In almost all instances where Obama is asked direct questions - he looks down and hemms and haws because he is for authoritarian government which controls many aspects that are currently free.  INCLUDING BANKING.  We could easily take back our own economy - but not under Obama.  You see, the rich people actually bailed us out.  What if there weren't any (under Obama's plan)?

I did not single out anyone as a purveyor or a victim of bigotry, Susan; as someone who is well-versed in that subject, I'm surprised that you omitted to notice that.

Do you know what time it is in PA?(!)

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

The time is now 5:30 am.  Kinda early to vote, isn't it.

[thalbergmad]

It's not a sin to be religious - and it's certainly within people's rights to believe whatever they want to believe. 

Its also not a sin to not want it rammed down your throat 10 times a day

[morningstar]

The time is now 5:30 am.  Kinda early to vote, isn't it.

You're up at 5:30am?

[pianistimo]

What is this 'reputation' thingy.  I suppose it's supposed to means something personal.  Like - if you don't vote for Obama (which hardly anyone that is voting lives in this country?) then you are on some kind of 'out' list.

Morningstar, I like you - but must you insist that women cannot get up early in the morning.  I happen to get up early most every morning.  Is this a crime?

amnd Thal, for the record - if Andre Watts was running for President - i think that i should throw the bible up for one second and just say -hmmm. he plays piano pretty well - let's just vote for a pianist.  In fact, we are planning to go to his concert in December.  You know, if Obama wins we have no chance of making the Arts a government priority.  He's not a classical music lover, is he?  McCain and Palin - i bet are - and it may be one of the few things they keep.  See. that is not a biblical reason.  But, Andre Watts is going to be my guy for President in the ideal piano world.

[morningstar]

What is this 'reputation' thingy.  I suppose it's supposed to means something personal.  Like - if you don't vote for Obama (which hardly anyone that is voting lives in this country?) then you are on some kind of 'out' list. Why don't you put little pigs near it?
Morningstar, I like you - but must you insist that women cannot get up early in the morning.  I happen to get up early most every morning.  Is this a crime?
amnd Thal, for the record - if Andre Watts was running for President - i think that i should throw the bible up for one second and just say -hmmm. he plays piano pretty well - let's just vote for a pianist.  In fact, we are planning to go to his concert in December - where - if obama wins we have no chance of making the Arts a government priority.  He's not a classical music lover, is he?  McCain and Palin - i bet are.  See. that is not a biblical reason.  But, Andre Watts is going to be my guy for President in the ideal piano world.

Something to do with validity of posts.
I was not saying that women should not be up at 5:30am, merely pointing out that 5:30am is early and there is no way I would be up that early except maybe for prayer.
Andre Watts?

[db05]

Morningstar, I like you - but must you insist that women cannot get up early in the morning.  I happen to get up early most every morning.  Is this a crime?

...You know, if Obama wins we have no chance of making the Arts a government priority.  He's not a classical music lover, is he?  McCain and Palin - i bet are - and it may be one of the few things they keep.  See. that is not a biblical reason.  But, Andre Watts is going to be my guy for President in the ideal piano world.

Paranoid...

Uh-oh. The Marcoses happened to be big supporters of the arts, but look what they did to our country. I'd rather have you voting because of your beliefs, no matter how radical they may be. 

[pianistimo]

VALIDITY?  This is mere speculative.  It is a thread about whom should be President. The Presidents make their cases and Obamas is not valid.  He wants to take from the rich to feed the poor.  That is lame brain.  How about make more rich people by using incentive instead of disincentive.  Would you work harder for fifty cents on the dollar?

Socialism has never worked, never will work, and isn't going to work in AMERICA.  It's not valid to say this i suppose.

BTW, i agree about taking from rich upper echelon bankers who STEAL american's hard earned ira's, etc.  But, not honest working people who are considered rich by Obama's ideals.

[db05]

Something to do with validity of posts.

Validity? It's a popularity contest, at worst. At best, it shows which posters are trusted.

PS.
btw, pianistimo, aren't you going out to vote yet?

[gyzzzmo]

The only one to outlaw warfare is GOD -because He is ultimately the strongest, wisest, and fairest.  He will not judge by what his eyes see....but with fairness will rule.  That means for all people. 

To my opinion God must be a dummy: First the guy creates us, gives us a free will since he thinks that's smart, then he starts blaming US for the consequences a free will has? And then he is supposed to send a bunch of scary (but peaceloving) angels after us to kick our asses?

You must be a Republican, no democrat can be THAT narrow-minded.

Allah please bring peace over pianistimo,

Gyzzzmo

(amen)

[pianistimo]

God is no dummy because he has sent prophets to all the ages.  They were typically disregarded.  now, i'm not claiming to be a prophet - i just say - 'read the bible.'  Apparently that's not good to do - even though Lincoln did and quoted it.  Lincoln never thought God was a 'dummy.'  Neither did William Penn - the 'father' of this state of Pennsylvania.  In fact, he went so far as to say that 'all men are created equal' and he wouldn't even take his hat off to judges.  If that was done today - wow - we'd have heart failure.

Jesus  Christ said to 'love Thy neighbor as thyself.'  It's supposed to be the motto without quoting the source now.  The Source of LOVE is GOD.  That's because he COMMANDS us to love one another through a higher law than man's.  Man's law is superficial and cannot replace God's.

[gyzzzmo]

God is no dummy because he has sent prophets to all the ages.  They were typically disregarded.  now, i'm not claiming to be a prophet - i just say - 'read the bible.'  Apparently that's not good to do - even though Lincoln did and quoted it.  Lincoln never thought God was a 'dummy.'  Neither did William Penn - the 'father' of this state of Pennsylvania.  In fact, he went so far as to say that 'all men are created equal' and he wouldn't even take his hat off to judges.  If that was done today - wow - we'd have heart failure.

Jesus  Christ said to 'love Thy neighbor as thyself.'  It's supposed to be the motto without quoting the source now.  The Source of LOVE is GOD.  That's because he COMMANDS us to love one another through a higher law than man's.  Man's law is superficial and cannot replace God's.

Well, if he's that wise, then even bother sending prophets? He should have known it would be a waste of his holy time.

And yes, i have read the bible, multiple times. But i DO have the ability to criticize things i read and observe. Maybe there is a God, we dont know, but if you can objectivly read the bible and understand history a slightest bit, you would understand that this bible cant be that gods words.

[G.W.K]

Great! another one to have a go at pianistimo.

It is not your place to moan about who says what about pianistimo. These comments have been ongoing long before you arrived. You cannot change that!

G.W.K

[richard black]

What incentive will there be to work in a socialist system?  None!

You going to tell Jesus or shall I? I mean, if he wasn't a socialist it's only because he was in fact a communist, according to the original Marxist-Leninist definition of communism: 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need'. (Socialism: 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his work'.)

[thalbergmad]

Jesus  Christ said to 'love Thy neighbor

Well, i hope to go next door tonight for a quick session.

Thal

[shortyshort]

Well, i hope to go next door tonight for a quick session.

Thal

Is she nice??

[G.W.K]

LOL, erm this is a political thread. Not a religious thread or a thread where you can mention your sexual liasons. LOL

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

Jesus  Christ said to 'love Thy neighbor as thyself.'

But, does that include non christians?

[shortyshort]

LOL, erm this is a political thread. Not a religious thread or a thread where you can mention your sexual liasons. LOL

G.W.K

You've already stated many times that this thread is ruined.

So enjoy.

[thalbergmad]

LOL, erm this is a political thread. Not a religious thread or a thread where you can mention your sexual liasons. LOL

G.W.K

Your thread lost its purpose ages ago old chap.

Far too late to get it back on track now.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Is she nice??

Yeh, after a few pints.

Thal

[G.W.K]

Your thread lost its purpose ages ago old chap.

Far too late to get it back on track now.

I suppose you have a point there. I should just give up on this, shouldn't I? LOL

G.W.K

[thalbergmad]

Yes, you will feel better if you give up.

Thal

[shortyshort]

Yeh, after a few pints.

Thal

Nice, better have a few then?

I suppose you have a point there. I should just give up on this, shouldn't I? LOL

G.W.K

It's an even deader topic tomorrow.

[G.W.K]

It's an even deader topic tomorrow.

No Shorty. IF Obama wins, pianistimo will continue her rant on how he will lead the world into decay and turn us all into robots whilst secretly being a Muslim and not a Christian.

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

No Shorty. IF Obama wins, pianistimo will continue her rant on how he will lead the world into decay and turn us all into robots whilst secretly being a Muslim and not a Christian.

G.W.K

I think that it would be good for america to have a muslim president anyway.

[G.W.K]

I think that it would be good for america to have a muslim president anyway.

Don't say that! pianistimo will start up again, like a broken record...

G.W.K

[shortyshort]

Don't say that! pianistimo will start up again, like a broken record...

G.W.K

Yes I know that, but, if he/she is an american, dedicated to america, then that is good.

[pianowolfi]

Who do you think will win the American Presidential Election?

Obama

[shortyshort]

Obama

But, is he the muslim antichrist?

[pianowolfi]

But, is he the muslim antichrist?

No.

[G.W.K]

Obama

We'll find out soon enough...Obama is clearly the favourite though. So I think it's almost certain he is the American President.

G.W.K

[pianowolfi]

So I think it's almost certain he is the American President.

G.W.K

I hope.

[thalbergmad]

Obama

You are ruining this thread by sticking to the topic

[G.W.K]

I hope.

You don't like McCain? I actually haven't heard that much from him...

G.W.K

[pianowolfi]

You are ruining this thread by sticking to the topic

Gotcha

[pianowolfi]

You don't like McCain? I actually haven't heard that much from him...

G.W.K

I'm traditionally rather left-winged...

[morningstar]

It is not your place to moan about who says what about pianistimo. These comments have been ongoing long before you arrived. You cannot change that!

G.W.K

Oh that long?
It does get rather wearing though to those who have no desire to take part in the arguments.
But whatever.

[thalbergmad]

It does get rather wearing though to those who have no desire to take part in the arguments.

It is even more wearing to those of us that do

[G.W.K]

Oh that long?
It does get rather wearing though to those who have no desire to take part in the arguments.
But whatever.

Is this a plea of the sympathy vote? I'm upset because everyone is "bashing" (god knows why you use that word ~ I have a different understanding of it) everyone else?

You can't change, no one can. It may be horrible, cruel and disrespectful to other members...but that's life. *SIGH*

G.W.K

[retrouvailles]

Just got back from voting for McCain. Not that it matters, considering that I'm in California and Obama is going to win (this state) anyways. Oh well. Palin 2012 anyone?

[pianistimo]

                              not that you want that  - but i'm giving it to you anyways.  i love you i love you ...  and palin will remain beautiful long after biden falls apart.  although, he's a southern gentleman - and i appreciated how he really wasn't that hard on palin even though he could have been.  i like them both actually. 

and, i've been meditating about obama.  i think the reason a lot of people like him is that he seems genuinely interested in resolving conflict.  i suppose that's a good thing. - so i can't be terribly angry if he wins.  i understand that side.  and - it is christian - however dangerous it might be for terrorists.

ok.  it's just - hmm.  i was so sure you were voting the other way. 

[maul]

Obama wins.

[m19834]

YIP, YIP, YIPPPEEEE