Obama or McCain?

[db05]

Whatever the outcome, it has for some time been widely reported (not that one can depend upon trusting journalists, of course, but I take leave seriously to doubt that so many of them in such a large number of countries including US itself have conspired to speak with one voice on the matter) that the principal single issue that is engaging people the most is not religion or even economics but race;
...

An Obama win will prove one thing: that white America isn't THAT racist.
On the other hand, racism will always be around. But people need a diversion once in a while. 

[ahinton]

How can it REALLY be race if Obama is 1/2 white anyways.  I don't think race plays into it - but it's being USED.  The race card is very convenient.  It's like saying - I must run the government because of my race.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about perception of race issues purely because of Mr Obama's own racial origins but the more general concerns of the American public on this issue; I'm not even claiming that it is necessarily as important an issue as it is being made out to be, but I remain far from convinced that it is merely being trumped up by journalists everywhere to give a false impression of what actually engages substantial swathes of the American electorate.

He denying any black-panther racist affiliations, or connections with shady people like ayers, because they 'do not influence his politics.'  That's kind of funny because it is whom you are with that makes you known as to what you deep down believe.  And, if you buy homes, use their acorn system, listen to their version of history - you might add to it - how the constitution should be changed, burn the flag, and never say the pledge of allegiance - or just sort of slump and turn to the side.  Take the flag off your lapel.  Things like that. 

OK.  Some might say Mc Cain slumps too, but notice - never when he salutes the flag.  This is what i mean by 'voting for a world system.'  Obama has never once used his harvard law degree to teach people the constitution is fair and just.  He makes a point to degrade things that are AMERICAN.  He is for a one world order.  Just wait and see.  The first thing to go will be freedom in the sense of decisions.  He is an authoritarian.

But show me a constitution - written or otherwise - anywhere in the world that is - and is seen to be and universally accepted as being - "fair and just" to everyone subject to it, irrespective of race, religion, age, sex, wealth, etc...

President Bush is often degraded because people don't like that went into Iraq.  But, Saddam Hussein is gone.  A huge threat to world peace.  History isn't on the American side anymore because apparently people like authoritarian figures.  They can all fight together more properly.  Bin-Laden apparently is not caught because Pakistan likes him.  So...what will happen.  If he can't get to america - bombings will take place wherever he thinks embassies are and they will be in foreign countries that harbor him and his terrorist.  They get a bit of their own 'love' back - but the thing is -McCain knows what freedom is about.  It's not about lovey love - it's tough love.  You don't say - here - take our money but we require nothing of you.   Love is usually reciprocated - and when it is not - how can you run a country effectively by making the same mistakes over and over.  Obama would play right into the hands of terrorists.

Well, we know where you stand on the voting issue - and that is, of course, your personal prerogative - but that doesn't make it reasonable to inject so much religious material into it as you have such a habit of doing and have done in earlier posts to this thread as though it is religion above all (expecially your own particularised Christian variety thereof) that is the main issue that concerns voting Americans and that the next most important deciding factor relates less to race per se than some kind of arrogant flag-waving xenophobia as though that is some kind of human virtue.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

What our flag stands for is 'under God' - our country was blessed for a time because it was 'under God.'  Under Muhammad is something different.  It is a different ideology because Muhammad then replaces the King or Christ with a mere prophet who cannot save.  Now, this may make people mad - but the USA was not built on the ideals of the Koran. It was built upon the ideals of the bible.  The laws of  our land are based upon the 10 commandments.  If you don't believe that - then go into the highest court of the land and look up.  There is MOSES with the 10 commandments. Also, th ey are posted on the back of the supreme court doors.  I suppose that will be the next thing to be taken down or worried about that it would cause people not to get justice.  This is just ridiculous to deny the source of our world power - and since we don't have it anymore - can we say that we have lost trust in God?  I think God has lost trust in us.

Our founding fathers were not choosing a system of government to run us.  They were choosing a system which would let the people decide.  That is why the constitution of the USA has been around so long - and our country has been FREE so long.  What other country has had this much freedom for 200 years?  Tell me what the UN has done for anyone?  Money, yes.  Freedom, no.  The UN has it's own agenda and it is no different than a dictatorship.  They allow terrorist to roam free when it is THEIR job (self-spoken, btw) - not the USA - to find and root out terrorism.  They are not doing their job.  sudan, rwanda, georgia, kurds.  Now, they will do something about palestinians because it is in their interests to destroy israel.  However, the bible says it will all end suddently at armaggedon and they won't get a bit of pleasure out of rooting 1/2 of jerusalem.  Their eyes will melt when they see the Lord return.

[db05]

Dan Brown, eat your heart out!! 






But I'd really prefer Palahniuk. Or even Coelho. 

[pianistimo]

'There is nothing to fear but fear itself.'  'give me liberty or give me death.'  a few mottos of mine. Dan Brown was actually given a 'threat' from the newest form of the catholic mafia - the one that used to be in charge of the inquisition.  Here's it's new name.  Tell me this isn't authoritarian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith

Why do they not just resort to the biblical text and leave it at that.  Why the need for a sort of 'world council?' on churches?  Because the next step is to tell people what is religious doctrine and what isn't.  What is allowed as a 'rational belief.'  Do you know that many doctrines of the catholic church simply never were rational in the first place?  Take for instance the bible verses that say 'no man has ascended into heaven, except He that came down from heaven... ' or something like that.  So - they SAY - MARY has ascended.  Now - just imagine how many other things are messed up.  That's because they are changing the bible to suit mithraic ideas.  The queen of heaven is not an actual queen in heaven.  It is a goddess.  Look it up.  Astarte, Isis, a bunch of names like that.  Semiramis.  Here's a wiki article on the 'assumption of Mary'  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

Now, to take this further into 'irrationality' - the doctrine becomes 'did Mary ever die?  no - she was immaculate and actually a god-being - therefore her body and soul went to heaven intact - as a GODDESS!  She was never human in the first place, according to that theory.  So why does she have a mother and father?  It's all so bizarre.

Again, people may say - what does this have to do with Obama or McCain - well, it has a lot to do because the next 'world order' will have some orders from the catholic church -because they are turning over a huge number of congregants to the world system by influencing the vote.  Why?  So the catholic church will have more power in the world system.  Especially with medical care and religion.  It's a trade.

[db05]

Tell me this isn't authoritarian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith

It's inevitable. As they believe in one dictator-G-d, the world order should be the same. This goes for all Christians. It just so happens that Catholic is the biggest sect. Doesn't matter to me which sect is right or wrong, since the main idea is still the same. It's the same end. Worship this one G-d, or die.

Now I'm settled. I'd rather die. Thank you for clearing that up.

[pianistimo]

You don't understand fully.  It isn't religions that decide what is truth.  God decides and has decided long ago.  We don't really have a choice on the future - although it is because God is loving.  He doesn't want sin to exist forever.  But, He gave us a choice.  If we choose to worship other 'gods' at the same time as He - He is jealous for our true love.  He doesn't want his worship to be combined with pagan gods.  That is why the first thing that is mentioned in the prophets as to what God will command is that the 'altars be torn down.'  What altars?  The altars to another god.  Another system.  Remember Elijah - his prayers got some results.  Also, the famine left the land and God caused it to rain again (after a long drought). 

To make extra effect, God told Elijah to pour four pitchers of water around the wood on his own altar - 3x. I Kings 18:33-37  Similarly, there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem and when they declare that there should be no rain - there won't be any!  It will be a sign as to the true God and the false god - and who is a prophet. Rev. 11:3 'and i will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days, clothed in mourning - these are the two olive trees...and if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth (from speaking and God causing fire to consume their enemies) and devours their enemies, and if anyone would dsire to harm them, in this manner ...these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.....'

Now, this all seems 'unfair' - but unfair to whom?  To those that don't want to worship the true God?  It's a choice to worship him - but yes, He is the Authority in truth.  His ways bring life and peace and joy - because Satan wants death and war and has convinced people to separate from God's ways and God Himself.  That has been the only result of 6000 years of man's own doing.

[db05]

You don't understand fully...
Now, this all seems 'unfair' - but unfair to whom?  To those that don't want to worship the true God?  It's a choice to worship him - but yes, He is the Authority in truth.  His ways bring life and peace and joy - because people want death and war.  That has been the only result of 6000 years of man's own doing.

True about me not understanding. For all I know, Christians worship one and the same G-d. At least the followers meant to. If the ones up top (the world order, Vatican or whatever) are doing evil, it doesn't mean the rest of the world are.

It is not just black and white as you say. True G-d vs False G-d. Who can tell if yours or mine is the real one? Who can say if your interpretation of scripture is correct? It is like music. We can never be sure, despite maybe reading volumes on the subject.

Say for some reason, you found the real one. He tells you to do these things, some against your will. What are you going to do? If you don't follow, you're condemned for disobedience. If you follow, you're condemned for not being honest with yourself. Like I told someone before, if THIS and only THIS is the RIGHT way, then why did He give us free will? Robots would be more suited to this than humans.

"Give me liberty or give me death." Something I learned just now.

[term]

Now, this may make people mad - but the USA was not built on the ideals of the Koran. It was built upon the ideals of the bible. 

I rather thought the constitution was built on the foundations of the french revolution?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The creator is a religious reference, but not a christian; and equality, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not bible values. The separation of state and church and freedom of religion are also not ideals of the bible yet fundamental qualities of a democratic state.

Now, they will do something about palestinians because it is in their interests to destroy israel. 

It's the other way round.

[ahinton]

What our flag stands for is 'under God' - our country was blessed for a time because it was 'under God.'  Under Muhammad is something different.  It is a different ideology because Muhammad then replaces the King or Christ with a mere prophet who cannot save.  Now, this may make people mad - but the USA was not built on the ideals of the Koran. It was built upon the ideals of the bible.  The laws of  our land are based upon the 10 commandments.  If you don't believe that - then go into the highest court of the land and look up.  There is MOSES with the 10 commandments. Also, th ey are posted on the back of the supreme court doors.  I suppose that will be the next thing to be taken down or worried about that it would cause people not to get justice.  This is just ridiculous to deny the source of our world power - and since we don't have it anymore - can we say that we have lost trust in God?  I think God has lost trust in us.

That last part may well be true (depending upon your point of view), but the main issue is that things have changed substantially - indeed, almost beyond recognition - since American Independence; not least of those changes are the racial ones in terms of the population and its makeup. Please remember this when you seek to put forward matters concerning American constitutional structure and law as though they are - and indeed even should be - somehow written in stone for eternity. Our constitution over here is, as you doubtless know, unwritten, but it is also very much older than yours and even more changes have taken place over more years here; laws adapt - and indeed have to adapt - in order to accommodate them and at least make some efforts to retain continuing relevance and pertinence at all times. We now have a Scottish parliament and a Welsh assembly; these are both of relatively recent origin. the uinion of the four states in UK is, howeverr, not as old os our constitution. UK has only been an EU member for a few decades. If UK breaks up into its four constituent parts (or even more), this will again make a big difference. Constitutions are simply not eternal.

Our founding fathers were not choosing a system of government to run us.  They were choosing a system which would let the people decide.  That is why the constitution of the USA has been around so long - and our country has been FREE so long.  What other country has had this much freedom for 200 years?  Tell me what the UN has done for anyone?  Money, yes.  Freedom, no.  The UN has it's own agenda and it is no different than a dictatorship.  They allow terrorist to roam free when it is THEIR job (self-spoken, btw) - not the USA - to find and root out terrorism.  They are not doing their job.

Your founding fathers would barely recognise present-day America - but then they wouldn't recognise anywhere else, either. The extent to which "the land of the free" is indeed such depends on your point of view; not every American citizen will see it that way, even though it cannot be denied that America has enjoyed rather more freedom than some other nations. To suggest that UN has exclusive rights and responsibilities for finding and rooting out terrorist activities seems almost to play into its hands in the very way you usually do not want to - in other words, it sounds like suggesting a kind of emasculation of individual governments in such activities in deference to UN. UN certainly does have such rights and responsibilities, but not exclusively so.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Again, people may say - what does this have to do with Obama or McCain - well, it has a lot to do because the next 'world order' will have some orders from the catholic church -because they are turning over a huge number of congregants to the world system by influencing the vote.  Why?  So the catholic church will have more power in the world system.  Especially with medical care and religion.  It's a trade.

Well, I am one of those people who asks that. The Roman Catholic Church is undoubtedly a powerful organisation, but it is one among many; it may be one of the most - if not the most - influential individual sector within the Christian Church but, as far as any kind of "world order" is concerned, it has to take its place. Please note that the Roman Catholic Church has never succeeded in permanently ousting any sector of Protestantism or Orthodoxy from the Christian faith and practice anywhere. Please note also that even the Christian Church as a whole is far from powerful enough to establish and maintain any kind of supremacy as part of a new "world order". We are discussing tomorrow's American election. Whatever influence over the electorate the Roman Catholic Church in America may have (and I am prepared to consider the relatively remote possibility that it may have a little), it will be minuscule and therefore of no real consequence even if could be seen to have tipped the balance in a very close-run election (assuming that it even turns out to be such); tiny majorities mean weak majorities.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Now, this may make people mad - but the USA was not built on the ideals of the Koran. It was built upon the ideals of the bible.  The laws of  our land are based upon the 10 commandments.  If you don't believe that - then go into the highest court of the land and look up. 

I cannot see anywhere in the 10 commandments where it says "thou shalt invade another Country and kill thousands of people".

I might have missed that.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Why do they not just resort to the biblical text and leave it at that. 

Because its Bronze Age mumbo jumbo.

[G.W.K]

This thread is on a cycle now: talk about elections, then religion, then disagree with pianistimo, then continue the religion arguments, then attempt to return to the original topic, then argue again, then finally get back to topic, then religion...

Please! I'm practically begging you all, to take your arguments that are not involved directly with this topic elsewhere!

Thank you,

G.W.K

[cherub_rocker1979]

This thread is on an innuendo cycle now.

Yes, I know. 

[cherub_rocker1979]

So maybe now people will start talking about different vices that they have, like drinking too much vodka or baijiu.

[G.W.K]

Yes, I know. 

Cherub ~ I am being serious, please do not alter my quotations and post nonsense. This is was (maybe still is) a sensible thread.

G.W.K

[lucylucy]

In france EVERYONE talk about that !!! it's even not our elections...pfoulalala
anyway i don't know the ideas of the both. but i prefer obama

[shortyshort]

Please! I'm practically begging you all, to take your arguments that are not involved directly with this topic elsewhere!

Thank you,

G.W.K

Is it not obvious to you, that not many people care?

Most people have aswered your original question.

Now they're having fun.

[pianistimo]

Obama = health care, tax breaks, bla bla bal - WHO PAYS?  a one world system - the banking system - central banks

for what price?  FREEDOM

[shortyshort]

Obama = health care, tax breaks, bla bla bal - WHO PAYS?  a one world system - the banking system - central banks

for what price?  FREEDOM

That was very short and to the point. Well done.

[thalbergmad]

Wait a few moments and her comment will become 10 times as large.

God, Catholics, the Pope and the UN will all be summoned.

Since you have captured her original comments, lets see what happens.

Thal

[shortyshort]

Wait a few moments and her comment will become 10 times as large.

God, Catholics, the Pope and the UN will all be summoned.

Since you have captured her original comments, lets see what happens.

Thal

Oh dear Thal. Have you no faith?

[thalbergmad]

Have you no faith?

Not a friggin ounce.

Thal

PS Sorry, i meant Gramme. Europe has banned ounce

[pianistimo]

Let's bring guns into the picture.  Just kidding. OK. As i see it - we have a right to defend ourselves.  What does Obama say?  Hmmm.  Does he ever talk about it.  At least we know Palin is familiar with things and has the capability to shoot a moose.  If she doesn't know about foreign policy at least she can shoot a gun.  Remember, we were a bunch of renegades when this country started anyways - that's how a nation becomes FREE.  However, i think she knows about foreign policy enough not to cater to terrorists.

The sad thing is - today - pretty much everyone is a bad shot.  Unless you are getting training.  To have any sort of war in a fair manner means that you have people that know how to aim and actually hit a target.  However, much i like the fantasy of hitting many targets - i suppose i'll just have to level and say - i will be among those that get shot probably.  But, hey- I'll stand out there waving a flag and holding a bible.  PS i am bringing this up in defense of country and not at the voting booth.

[thalbergmad]

At least we know Palin is familiar with things and has the capability to shoot a moose.  

Shame you ain't got any in PA then

[shortyshort]

Let's bring guns into the picture.  Just kidding. OK. As i see it - we have a right to defend ourselves.

Yes, but you don't.

You, Americans, just go around killing each other, and others, at will.

Very Christian of you all.

[thalbergmad]

i will be among those that get shot probably. 

Well, we can only hope.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Terrorists go around shooting each other and others at will.  We have planned stragegies that rarely hit so MANY civilians.  People claim otherwise - but journalists take pictures of what terrorists have already done.  Messed up huge swathes of country.  For what?  Their children to live?  They  use their own children and women!  This is what i mean about revisionists.  They don't see the purpose of defending one's own nation to thugs.

[thalbergmad]

We have planned stragegies that rarely hit so MANY civilians. 

True, its just the British Soldiers that get killed.

Thal

[ahinton]

Terrorists go around shooting each other and others at will.  We have planned stragegies that rarely hit so MANY civilians.  People claim otherwise - but journalists take pictures of what terrorists have already done.  Messed up huge swathes of country.  For what?  Their children to live?  They  use their own children and women!  This is what i mean about revisionists.  They don't see the purpose of defending one's own nation to thugs.

But it is surely rather difficult to see any such thing when one's own nation is full of thugs - or at least possesses sufficient of them in the pay of the current government to make an impression that canot fail to be noted elsewhere - and I am not, of course, speaking only of your country here. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (said he, unwittingly doing his Susan bit)...

Best,

Alistair

[morningstar]

Not a friggin ounce.

Thal

PS Sorry, i meant Gramme. Europe has banned ounce

Europe banned the ounce? How does that work and why did they do it?

[morningstar]

Terrorists go around shooting each other and others at will.  We have planned stragegies that rarely hit so MANY civilians.  People claim otherwise - but journalists take pictures of what terrorists have already done.  Messed up huge swathes of country.  For what?  Their children to live?  They  use their own children and women!  This is what i mean about revisionists.  They don't see the purpose of defending one's own nation to thugs.

Anyone heard of a place called Vietnam?

[ahinton]

We will not make a drama
Out of voting for Obama
But we'll not be so insane
As to vote for J McCain

(© Andrew Lloyd Motion, 2008)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Europe banned the ounce? How does that work and why did they do it?

We went through a period of time in UK where some people were prosecuted for using imperial measurements. A little bit more balance now seems to have prevailed.

They do it because they are interfering nobodies and because our feeble Euro loving government allows them to.

Thal

two/thirds of a pint anyone??

[ahinton]

Jazz is great - millions of people cannot be wrong
Eat crap - millions of flies cannot be wrong

Learn to play the banjo - tens of Pixis-loving banjoliers cannot be right...

(sorry - that was a quite deliberately off-topic remark and nils should slap my wrist or slap a writ or something appropriate)...

Ayway, to return hastily to the topic before I riosk being banned from this illustrious and august forum, I would like to point out that, in UK, bar(r)acks are armed forces premises and McCain symbolises over chips (fries to your Americans) - so, the American election tomorrow is between a soldier and a friar, it would seem - and that is surely a less than inviting and encouraging prospect, even for the pianistemotional people around these parts...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

We went through a period of time in UK where some people were prosecuted for using imperial measurements. A little bit more balance now seems to have prevailed.

They do it because they are interfering nobodies and because our feeble Euro loving government allows them to.

Thal

two/thirds of a pint anyone??

Of what? Probably not Scotch whisky when you read what I'm about to write which is that, when I was very young (yes, it did happen once) and attending a Scottish school at the age of barely four, I was taught metric measurement first because, having learnt to count in tens, it was obviously the more simple of the two systems - they then taught us the imperial system on the basis that we still had to use it but it would soon be made redundant (what unwarranted and premature optimism!) and to this day I have to think carefully in order to remember how many inches in a gallon or how many ounces in a mile. Whilst the prospect of some little dictatorial bureaucrat forcing people to use any one system of measurement has less than no appeal for me, I cannot help but recognise and acept that the metric system is just so much easier and more convenient than the imperialist one; as one rueful teacher once remarked in my presence many moons ago, "how many stones are there in a kidney?"...

Best,

Alistair

[morningstar]

True, its just the British Soldiers that get killed.

Thal

I dunno, I think the US casualties far outweigh those that the Brits had-and we only lost 4 people! Go SAS!
But again...anyone notice how well the US 'strategy' to reduce civilian casualties worked in Vietnam?

[kard]

...Pianistimo reminds me of these preacher type characters who come to my college and antagonize people in all their holiness in order to get hit and bring lawsuits to court. 

life isn't black and white pianistimo...take an anthropology course. Your views and ideals are not the center of the world. Other people exist, other cultures exist, other perceptions of marriage, sexuality, religion etc. exist. These are for the most part cultural institutions and they are never set in stone. They are functional. Otherwise they get rooted out eventually.

I voted Obama btw (in this poll; I'm underaged in real life )

[morningstar]

Great! another one to have a go at pianistimo.

[pianistimo]

It's not a sin to be religious - and it's certainly within people's rights to believe whatever they want to believe.  But, can you literally change the constitution on a whim?  That is what i'm talking about.  You have many religions - but one basis for the constitution.  It's based upon freedom for aLL.  Now, buddists won't tell you this - but they are anti-women.  They make their nuns walk barefoot.  Muslims are wayy more intolerant of gays in terms of laws.  Sikh's - well, think about those toasted women when their husbands get tired of them.  Some of these religions are not exactly what the doctor ordered in terms of getting justice 'for all.'

Thanks, morningstar for your support.  However, i got the 'bomb' on vietnam.  Ok.  all that agent orange.  Wow.  And, shooting and burning villages.  I think it's because we left our troops there too long and they became desperate to get out and were dealing with a very viscious situation.  Remember those cambodian camps, though?  Remember Pol Pot?  Nobody would have found out what he was doing! That is the end all to visciousness because the conditions they were found in was beyond believable.  Laos.  These poor people had no choice between USA fighting and their own government. MANY of our Vietnam vets died because they didn't want to kill after seeing so much death and pain.  They were put into the situation to free vietnam from imperialistic powers - but it didn't work because the regime was TERRORIST.  It's really bad when your own government tortures you - to have one less person to feed.

As of right now - there is a famine going on again in North Korea.  Nobody talks about dictatorships.  It's all 'boo, America.'  That's the hand that feeds sometimes.  Many Christians tried to help those in Korea get out - esp. those that had family in USA.  Nobody remembers.  We had troops to help KOREANS - to keep the north out of the south.  Now, it's together.  Rejoice rejoice.  What happens? They take all the money for their armies.  Now both sides are taxed - and the money is STOLEN.

As I see it - as an American - we have much to protect and defend.  Not just ourselves but freedom itself.  We are not 'lay down and die.'  We are 'fight to the end and then die.'  Why give it all away.  The 'status quo' that Obama talks about is DIALOGUE.  Exactly what he proposes.  That's not good enough.  How about a shot in the arm.  Do you think Saddam Hussein would have dialogued?  Do you think our American men died for OUR freedom. No. They died for Iraqis to be free of terror in their own country and for women to finally have the rights that they deserve.  Not just democracy- but basic human rights.  If they don't want democracy as we see - that's ok.  But, at least  Saddam and his crew aren't taking down their own people right and left.  He was CRAZY.

[db05]

What about WWII? Don't tell me bombing innocent civilians in Japan is right. It's not even honorable. It was like shooting a sleeping chlid.

The way I see it, any Christian who is pro-war is either confused or a hypocrite. Religion aside. Use logic: never in history has a war brought good results.  We never learn, do we???

You, Americans, just go around killing each other, and others, at will.

Very Christian of you all.

Hear, hear!

Anyone heard of a place called Vietnam?

"They're called bui-doi... the dust of life
Conceived in hell, and born in strife
They are the living reminder of all the good we failed to do..."

Sorry I couldn't help it.

[lisztisforkids]

  Do you think our American men died for OUR freedom. No. They died for Iraqis to be free of terror in their own country and for women to finally have the rights that they deserve.  Not just democracy- but basic human rights.  If they don't want democracy as we see - that's ok.  But, at least  Saddam and his crew aren't taking down their own people right and left.  He was CRAZY.

 Americans died for Bush and to secure future oil supplies. Not to secure democracy, not  for basic human rights. When will you people learn that the West dosent care what hapens to other countries or other people?

 For example (and there are lots, and lots I can choose from) look at the DR Congo. Look at how many millions of people have died but yet there is hardly a news broadcast on the subject. Instead of actually sending real aid or doing something substanial we choose to sit on our fat asses and eat McDonalds and pretend that America is still the greatest country in the world.

 What is the West doing to stop the crisis in Sudan? AIDS? Hunger? No, we dont give a sh*t about anything but ourselves. And thats not only America, but Europe to. You people really disgust me. Nothing ever changes.

 Yes, America is obviously the greatest country in the world. Hell, only 50 years ago in this great nation we were still hanging African-Americans from trees! And only 150 years ago we were still practicing slavery. And only several hundred years ago we were buning teenage women alive because we beleived they were witches. And then before that we all beleived the earth was still flat......

 You know what makes America great? Its that we can actually move forward (if we are not hampered by some twisted nut like you). It's progress that counts....

 And now Pianistmo you are going to come back with a really convoluted and twisted reply with God mentioned every other word. But it is precisley people like you that help to continue this cycle of ignorance and intolerance.

[lisztisforkids]

What about WWII? Don't tell me bombing innocent civilians in Japan is right. It's not even honorable. It was like shooting a sleeping chlid.

The way I see it, any Christian who is pro-war is either confused or a hypocrite. Religion aside. Use logic: never in history has a war brought good results.  We never learn, do we???

Hear, hear!

"They're called bui-doi... the dust of life
Conceived in hell, and born in strife
They are the living reminder of all the good we failed to do..."

Sorry I couldn't help it.

 Dont talk about things you dont know about. You fail to mention the millions of Chinese and other people the Japanese killed. It was a very horrible thing the bombing of Japan, nut you must remeber that is how wars were fought back then, dont go blacklisting America.

[db05]

Just making a point to pianistimo: war is un-Christian, any way you look at it.

The atomic bomb was a new invention, so how can you say that is how wars were fought then? It was using a new weapon unnecessarily. The war was almost over anyway. I'm not against America. I'm against war.

Edit: NEVER MIND. 
I'm just surprised I'm still alive after saying that I'd rather die last night. Let's see what happens @ elections tonight.

[chopininov]

That is why the constitution of the USA has been around so long - and our country has been FREE so long.  What other country has had this much freedom for 200 years? 

I'm sure the slaves would've agreed with you.

[mephisto]

As a side note, this remark reminds me Russian fashist-nationalists, whose slogan is "Jews sold Russia".

Best, M
 

Me too!

[kard]

It's not a sin to be religious - and it's certainly within people's rights to believe whatever they want to believe.  But, can you literally change the constitution on a whim?  That is what i'm talking about.  You have many religions - but one basis for the constitution.  It's based upon freedom for aLL.  Now, buddists won't tell you this - but they are anti-women.  They make their nuns walk barefoot.  Muslims are wayy more intolerant of gays in terms of laws.  Sikh's - well, think about those toasted women when their husbands get tired of them.  Some of these religions are not exactly what the doctor ordered in terms of getting justice 'for all.'

The constitution has no official ties to any religion. Even if I were to accept the implication that it was based on Christianity, that would be making the false assumption that Christianity in the U.S. is or was a unified body, that no strife is or was present. The most obvious example of division, the Protestant vs. Catholic schism, would have certainly brought a lot more strife to government.
The tying of the constitution to the 'unchangeable, having ultimate truth' nature of the bible or Christian ideology is not what was intended.

The constitution is made with flexibility in mind, hence, the amendment process. Power was given to the people."The people" are never a completely homogeneous group and the constitution advocates that the concerns of all its charges are considered in order to remain functional and relevant. That is the foundation of the constitution. That is how it works.

Having shown the separation from religious affiliation, your one sided-representations of other religions becomes irrelevant.

To look at it in even another way, add some Christian examples to your list and it shows exactly why no religion should be the basis.

_{I don't mean to continue the wars ^^"...but this is good writing practice, and great entertainment}

[gyzzzmo]

In this time and space dimension that we live there are many variables and perspectives.  What if this is just 'one moment in time' and things may change very suddenly and rapidly in the next three or so years for America?  I think that very well could be the case if Obama became President.  I think many people like him have high ideals.  They have experienced the other side of the 'american dream' which has a very heavy price and makes them somewhat bitter at the idea that there is a constitution which isn't always used with precision and justice for all - but that there has been racial bias and problems.  Obama would be the first black President - and that is fine with many whites.  The difficulty for some is not his color (as it is expected that we would have a black President).  The problem is the question whether he is actually democratic or socialist and for a one world government. If this is so...he will sell out America to a one world agenda.

The end of it all would result in America being subsumed into a situation of MUCH higher taxes and oversight.  I am for small government and less intrusion - and am wary of changes to the US constitution which guarantees the rights of all - whether rich or poor to determine how their own lives proceed and without arbitrary AUTHORITATIVENESS on almost every area of their lives.

However, in the future - according to the book of Isaiah - which foretold Jesus Christ coming in chp. 11 - Jesus will return to this earth during a time when the nations of Israel (the ones that had the bible and turned from God) are again in 'captivity.'  Whether this captivity is financial - and/or we actually sell land, trade the us constitution for global laws, and are subsumed into other countries (as Isa. 11:11 indicates) - we will be in some kind of captivity.  Isa. 11:11 mentions that God Himself will 'again recover the second time with His hand, the remnant of his people....'  If it is a second time - it hasn't happened yet.  We haven't been in any sort of enslavement to other countries yet.

I think it's a warning from G-d at the same time as an encouragement.  When Jesus Christ rules - he will rule with a 'rod of iron' which is also authoritative - but He will rule in righteousness.  Isaiah also mentions 'He will not judge by what His eyes see, nor make a decision by what His ears hear; but with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth....they will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain (government).'  Whoever wins the Presidency will not ultimately rule forever.  They are temporarily there on the grace of the Eternal God.

Lol braveau miss pianistimo, you have managed to involve more religious nonsense about stuff wich has nothing to do with the topic!

Anyway, i have to admire your knowledge and believe in every word of the bible. It's also impressive how somebody is able to doubt nothing.

gyzzzmo

PS pianistimo: How can it be that your God 'of love' agrees with all the stuff those 'prophets' said, like the 'consuming enemies with His fire' and other death and misery involving actions? Especially when considering that we're all suposed to be His children?

[pianistimo]

The constitution mentions the 'Creator.'  The ideals of the constution are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That we are 'endowed' with rights that don't come from man - but God!  That we are created equal.  What other countries have freed slaves?  There are still many slaves in  Africa itself within it's own boundaries and to it's own people.  Witness diamond mining.  Many countries enslave by not using money wisely and allowing huge amounts of the population to be poor.  This isn't following the ideals of the bible which allow for the poor to improve their conditions.  Slaves are not just 'slaves' - but those who cannot change their course in life over time.  That can be poor to middle-class nowdays!   

This system provides for many things - but with freedom comes responsibility.  I believe the responsibility is to act fairly.  Many who witnessed what happened after the bombs dropped on Nagasaki et al - realized that we entered a different kind of warfare.  One that could literally destroy the world.  That we were not shooting an enemy -b ut our own selves.  This is what G-d is leading us to see - that we are not governments 'under God' - but governments by people.  And, if we were righteous - G-d would fight FOR us.  Without us lifting a finger.

There are many places in the OT where G-d miraculously roots out enemies.  The enemies typically start the fight. Japan bombed pearl harbor before anything happened to them.  They are no longer enemies because i think we both understand. There have even been some fighter pilots that have met with the other side and made peace - and visa-versa - because they understand that the warfare of this age isn't really fair.  As you say - bombing innocent people and making them burned beyond belief is really saying that humanity doesn't deserve to exist.  And, yet - whomever has the bomb will use it.

Death is a concept that came into the world by sin.  It's certainly not leaving without dying.  G-d mentions in Revelations that the entire world's system (banking, government, etc) will be under the control of Satan completely.  It has been for a long time.  That is why Satan asked Jesus Christ if he wanted all the kingdoms of the world at the time He came the first time.  It wasn't his 'time.'  His time is after mankind has already been persuaded that war is the only answer.

And, yet - if we do not fight for our country - who will?  Not G-d anymore because we deny His power.  Churchill did not deny God's power.  Roosevelt did not.  Lincoln did not.  And, neither does McCAin.  McCain has more honor than Obama has sitting at the table eating dinner.  I do not think that Obama thanks G-d for his food.  It just appears.  We deserve everything we have?  No.  God gave it to us!  The rulers of this world are there because G-d allows them to be - not because they are so great.  McCain understands this.  Obama thinks he is personally the greatest thing to walk the planet.

Oh. And about warfare.  I happen to think that under the current systems and laws - warefare will be outlawed by Obama and then someone will bomb us.  All our shields and defences will supposedly be 'anti-peace.'  Playing right into the hand of Russia when they complained about that - however it won't be Russia to do us in according to the bible.  It will be our friendly peaceable neighbors that are supposed to keep the peace and bring peace to the world.  The only one to outlaw warfare is GOD -because He is ultimately the strongest, wisest, and fairest.  He will not judge by what his eyes see....but with fairness will rule.  That means for all people.  He has a system that mimics harvests.  The first harvest isn't better than the second.  It's just gleaned before all the warfare breaks loose on this planet.  Wouldn't you like to be part of a first harvest?  To be peaceable and known for peace?  That IS the government of G-d.

PS this may sound contradictive - but the armies of G-d are his own angels.  They will fight the nations at the end of the age.  We are told as Christians that our mission isn't always easy.  If we go to war - we may have a mission to protect our country from harm - but we are not exempt from being killed.  If we pray - we are also fighting.  We can pray for peace.  We can pray that Jesus Christ return.  That is another type of warfare that is for fairness and peace to all.  It is the one that i subscribe to personally because a gun only brings you into a situation of death.  Death isn't the answer.  Life is.  But, right now - we are not 'under God.'  He cannot fight for us that way.