Why do so many think the Schumann concerto sucks?

[malwambi]

Even those who like Schumann still think his concerto is lousy. 

Why? 

I just don't get it.  I don't particularly like or dislike his concerto, but why is it so popular if it sucks so bad?

[horowitzian]

My guess would be because it really is overplayed. It is rather easy to develop a distaste for music that is simply played too much, e.g. Für Elise, Fantasie Impromptu, etc.

[john11inc]

The same reason so many people dislike the Bruch Violin Concerto, despite it getting played constantly.  It's trashy; popular with common audiences, not so much with serious music listeners.

[ahinton]

The same reason so many people dislike the Bruch Violin Concerto, despite it getting played constantly.  It's trashy; popular with common audiences, not so much with serious music listeners.

I wouldn't go as far as to use the term "trashy", although it is undoubtedly Schumann at far below his best and, boy, is it repetititititive! - especially that galumphing finale. The middle movement seems to be the most redeemable of its three but, even here, it seems (to me, at least) rather vapid and lacking in any of the real depth of which Schumann was elsewhere capable. The Bruch FIRST violin concerto (! - that says it all, really, does it not? - people call it that in spite of his having composed three of them) strikes me as a rather better work than the Schumann piano concerto, although his other two violin concertos are somewhat more interesting; that said, I cannot help but feel that Bruch always ultimately ends up providing the impression of a kind of "I-wish-I-were-Brahms-but-I'm-not" composer. But it is the Schumann concerto that is the topic here and, if one compares it to his Études Symphoniques or any of his best multi-movement works such as the Piano Quintet and the Fantaisie, the sheer dull emptiness of much of the concerto becomes all too uncomfortably apparent. Constantly having it performed does it no favours at all - indeed, to some, it has the very opposite effect.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

I just don't get it.  I don't particularly like or dislike his concerto, but why is it so popular if it sucks so bad?

What I don't get is why that magnificent Introduction & Allegro Op. 134 is so unaccountably neglected!  I cannot recall the last time I saw it on a program, and it doesn't pop up on the radio very often.

Otherwise, I've never been particularly bothered by the concerto's popularity.  It certainly wouldn't influence a decision to attend a concert, unless, of course, it featured Ms. Argerich.  But you have to admit- there are some good tunes, the piano writing is fluent, and it makes a nice impression on the ear.  I can certainly understand its popularity.   (And I don't mean to be damning with faint praise!)

[stevebob]

What I don't get is why that magnificent Introduction & Allegro Op. 134 is so unaccountably neglected!  I cannot recall the last time I saw it on a program, and it doesn't pop up on the radio very often.

Well, you know what Friskin and Freundlich (in Music for the Piano) had to say about that:  "A labored product of Schumann's declining powers, with little of his real quality."

Of course, I don't agree!  I just think that's a fascinating comment (and an equally captivating commentary on how subjective such statements are).

Do opinions like that one reflect reality, or do they shape it?  A piece is underplayed because it's assumed to be bad, while simultaneously assumed to be bad because it's underplayed—and people who wish to hear it and decide for themselves really have to make an effort to do so.  Sometimes it's well worth it. 

[jbmorel78]

Even those who like Schumann still think his concerto is lousy. 

Why? 

I just don't get it.  I don't particularly like or dislike his concerto, but why is it so popular if it sucks so bad?

Setting aside the issue of whether or not popularity and quality are related...

I believe it to be largely a matter of ignorance and superficiality.  Anyone who would use the word "suck(s)" with regard to a piece such as this is not worth being taken seriously.  We may find things repetitive, uninspired, awkwardly constructed, unimaginative, monochromatic, and so forth, but to speak about a staple of the repertoire in such blunt and crude terms is idiotic.

JBM

[birba]

Argerich sure loves it.

[stucoy]

Argerich sure loves it.

I love her. Of course, I have the recording made when she was 11, and it is of course, astonishing.

[malwambi]

Setting aside the issue of whether or not popularity and quality are related...

I believe it to be largely a matter of ignorance and superficiality.  Anyone who would use the word "suck(s)" with regard to a piece such as this is not worth being taken seriously.  We may find things repetitive, uninspired, awkwardly constructed, unimaginative, monochromatic, and so forth, but to speak about a staple of the repertoire in such blunt and crude terms is idiotic.

JBM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Oh my goodness! 

That just made my day.

HAHAAHAHAHAAA!!

"Crude!"  "Idiotic!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Wow. 

[vviola]

It was written by Schumman. He composed Träumerei.

[stevebob]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Oh my goodness! 

That just made my day.

HAHAAHAHAHAAA!!

"Crude!"  "Idiotic!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Wow. 

I'm confused!   (I can't tell whether you agree with JBM or not.)

But coincidentally, a thread was started today in the "Anything but piano" subforum called The most idiotic statements you've ever heard?

[slow_concert_pianist]

The Schumann 3rd movement is enormously challenging because of the integration between piano and orchestra. There are an extremely high number of poor interpretations of that concerto, thus.

Jealousy and malice are poor cousins I'm told. Can any of you play the Schumann concerto as the composer has instructed?

[weissenberg2]

I agree it can get repetitive, but it is not a bad piece. It is not one of his best pieces, but it is a good concerto.

And plenty of serious music listeners do like it, there is a reason why many musicians play it...

[richard black]

Some like it, some don't. Some on either side choose to justify their position by getting awful snobbish about the opposing party. The simple fact is, however, that if you don't like it you don't have to go and hear it, or play it, and if you do like it there are plenty of recordings and performances to enjoy.

So both sides win, and as a side-effect we get some intermittently amusing correspondence on PS about it. Hurrah!

[orangesodaking]

Do opinions like that one reflect reality, or do they shape it?  A piece is underplayed because it's assumed to be bad, while simultaneously assumed to be bad because it's underplayed—and people who wish to hear it and decide for themselves really have to make an effort to do so.  Sometimes it's well worth it. 

Stevebob, you are totally right! Also, I like Schumann's Concerto.

[liordavid]

The thing about the piece is so many people think that it is easier then much of his other repetoire in the 1st movement which is the movement that i think is most repetetive. the 3rd movement kicks in

[furtwaengler]

I love Schumann. His concerto has often suffered because of certain approaches...the accepted performance practice is outstandingly stale and limiting. My favorite recording, or I should say *the* performance I adore is the broadcast of March 1942, Walter Gieseking with the Berlin Philharmonic, hanging on for dear life, clinging to Wilhelm Furtwängler's extreme, exaggerated, overwhelming, over-the-top, over-everything conception...probably a once in a lifetime of the composition performance. Furtwängler overpowers the piece with his personality; it is anything but "restrained romanticism." It is the very embodiment of the romantic spirit at the hands of a possessed genius amongst the tragic volatility of Hitler's Germany, which Furtwängler vehemently opposed.

Nobody else has done such with Schumann, save Sviatoslav Richter...a live performance of the Fantaisie from 1948, and oh my, the most phenomenal Dichterliebe *in Russian* with **Nina Dorliac**! But Furtwängler...1st Symphony++, Piano Concerto+, 4th Symphony++++.

Schumann is actually one of the most important composers in my life, language wise, influence wise. (This post will serve also as a reply to malwambi's other Schumann thread. Richter. Furtwängler. Try it, people!)

(Oh and concerning the concerto, Radu Lupu was probably the turning point in my understanding).    
(Also Enescu playing the 2nd violin sonata, Szeryng playing the violin concerto...this is a very performer/recording related post.)

[teccomin]

I always tend to develop distaste for overplayed music. Its probably the same happening with Schumann. But to be honest, it didn't quite impress me the first time i hear it either. It has notes all over the place, it doesn't seem to tell a story. I hate Tchaik too, but only subjectively.

[carrot_cake]

really, i quite enjoy playing it. especially the cadenza at the end of the first movement, great fun!

[redbaron]

The first movement of the Schumann concerto is possibly my favourite piano concerto movement (I would go for Rimsky-Korsakov's piano concerto but it's in single movement form) which is ironic considering that I find the overwhelming majority of Schumann's piano music to be utter bilge and I'm not that keen on concerti in general.

[pianist1976]

Why do so many think the Schumann concerto sucks?

"Who" are these so many? I want names

[john11inc]

I believe it to be largely a matter of ignorance and superficiality.  Anyone who would use the word "suck(s)" with regard to a piece such as this is not worth being taken seriously.  We may find things repetitive, uninspired, awkwardly constructed, unimaginative, monochromatic, and so forth, but to speak about a staple of the repertoire in such blunt and crude terms is idiotic.

To speak of speaking in such blunt and crude terms as "idiotic" is idiotic.  Pardon my irony.

[musichristina]

WHAT!! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! I LOVE THIS CONCERTO. AND I LOVE SCHUMANN IN GENERAL. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 I seem to have an affinity with Schumann (along with Beethoven), mainly because our personalities are so similar. I master the artistry in his pieces so much faster than when playing any other composer's pieces... ANYWAY, anyone who dislikes it probably just heard a very poor performance of it. I find it impossible to dislike a piece if I hear a performance or recording of it that makes me feel emotions that cannot be described accurately with words, and of course, drift off into lala land.

[birba]

Tocca a te, Thal!

[thalbergmad]

Chords: bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang.

The opening is the only part of minor interest. The rest is pure trash.

But what would one expect from Schumann?. Rubbish pianist, even worse critic and average composer at best.

Thal

[ahinton]

Chords: bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang.

The opening is the only part of minor interest. The rest is pure trash.

But what would one expect from Schumann?. Rubbish pianist, even worse critic and average composer at best.

That is a nonsense assessment of Schumann the composer (I cannot speak about the qualities of Schumann the pianist as I'm not quite old enough to have heard him play); his piano concerto has its occasional engaging moments, but they are, to me, few and far between and the entire work adds up to a piece of nothing much at all compared to the best of which Schumann was capable. The finale was surely designed to irritate more than to do anything else - but Schumann did things vastly superior to this concerto and what most annoys me about people's view of it is that it gets to be taken (perhaps in part because of its immense popularity) as illustrative and typical of Schumann's compositional gifts rather than as the largely rather unfortunate side-issue that it was and is amongst his work as a whole.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

That is a nonsense assessment of Schumann the composer

It was an assessment of the concerto.

Thought that was evident considering the thread title.

Thal

[ahinton]

It was an assessment of the concerto.

Thought that was evident considering the thread title.

Then you thought wrong. If that was all that your "assessment" was intended to be, one might well ask why you included in it the observation "but what would one expect from Schumann?...rubbish pianist, even worse critic and average composer at best", which was surely intended to convey the view that the concerto is in fact typical of those things of which Schumann was capable, whereas its shortcomings demonstrate that it is well less than that.

Best,

Alistair

[richterfan1]

that concerto is Great!!!

[thalbergmad]

Then you thought wrong. If that was all that your "assessment" was intended to be, one might well ask why you included in it the observation "but what would one expect from Schumann?...rubbish pianist, even worse critic and average composer at best", which was surely intended to convey the view that the concerto is in fact typical of those things of which Schumann was capable, whereas its shortcomings demonstrate that it is well less than that.

Very well, have it your own way.

Thal

[orangesodaking]

When I first started working on it, I had no idea how popular it was, but I liked what I was hearing/playing. After a while, I started to shy away from it because of its popularity, but recently, I listened to a recording of Radu Lupu playing it and enjoyed it. My teacher is performing it with our city's orchestra next week, so I'm going to go watch him.

[ahinton]

Very well, have it your own way.

It's not my "own way" that I'm promoting or seeking to establish here; I'm merely seeking to draw attention to the fact that you were rubbishing Schumann in general as though his work as a whole was pretty much on a level with his piano concerto, which it most certainly was not. Don't you have anything to say in response to that? After all, it was your comment that prompted me to write as I did...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Don't you have anything to say in response to that?

At this exact moment in time, I don't.

Thal

[ahinton]

At this exact moment in time, I don't.

Well, no doubt we'll all look forward to your doing so at some other moment in time.

Best,

Alistair

[camstrings]

Just listened to Krystian Zimerman's recording of this & it made me wonder what there is not to like!
Tempos are similar to Kissin's live recording, with a more "chiselled" feel. And the Grieg on the same disc is similarly finely played & recorded. Karajan conducts Berlin Phil. on both.

[ahinton]

Just listened to Krystian Zimerman's recording of this & it made me wonder what there is not to like!
Tempos are similar to Kissin's live recording, with a more "chiselled" feel. And the Grieg on the same disc is similarly finely played & recorded. Karajan conducts Berlin Phil. on both.

There is no shortage of fine recorded performances of the work out there, no small proportion of them coupled with the Grieg concerto in the same key, but I cannot help wondering if the two rather deserve one another's company, each being a concerto in A minor that is considerably weaker than much other works by its composer, especially in Schumann's case.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

Well I see that this thread is enjoying a renaissance of sorts.

OSK, let us know how your teacher's performance goes... 

[birba]

Whose teacher and what performance?   

OSK?

*****   OSK   On Screen Keyboard   
***   OSK   Optical Society of Korea (South Korea)   
***   OSK   One Shot Kill (gaming clan)   
**   OSK   Osaka Shosen Kaisha (Japanese shipping line)   
*   OSK   Old School Killas (online gaming)   
*   OSK   Oslo Seilflyklubb (Norwegian: Oslo Gliding Club)   

[kelly_kelly]

Whose teacher and what performance?   

OSK?

*****   OSK   On Screen Keyboard   
***   OSK   Optical Society of Korea (South Korea)   
***   OSK   One Shot Kill (gaming clan)   
**   OSK   Osaka Shosen Kaisha (Japanese shipping line)   
*   OSK   Old School Killas (online gaming)   
*   OSK   Oslo Seilflyklubb (Norwegian: Oslo Gliding Club)   

OSK = orangesodaking 

On the topic of Schumann, I have to say I'm not a fan of the concerto as a work, but there are performances of it which I found enjoyable and impressive for the skill of the performers, if not the quality of the composition. And Bruch's First Violin concerto certainly does not deserve to be compared to it!

[cmg]

Chords: bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang.

The opening is the only part of minor interest. The rest is pure trash.



Thal

That's hysterical and pure, unadulterated Thal!  But the quote of the opening is short some "bangs," isnt it?  It should be: bang/Banngg! bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang . . Bang! Bang!!  Stupid opening and I really can't vouch for the rest of the piece, heard it too often and played it for too many years.  I must say, however, the first-movement development is tedious, annoying and a completely joyless experience to play.  Schumann definitely wrote better stuff.

I once heard a famous Texas pianist, who can't be named, at a party with Shura Cherkassky, asking Shura what concerto he would be playing the next night:  "The Schumann," Shura said with reverence.  The pianist snorted:  "Ah yesss, the f**king Schumann Concerto!"  He got a round of applause.

[thalbergmad]

But the quote of the opening is short one "bang," isnt it?  It should be: bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang . . Bang! Bang!! 

I stand corrected Sir. I am indeed one bang short.

I listened to this concerto again last night and almost died of tedium. Then I listened to the Winding concerto and all was well again.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

but I cannot help wondering if the two rather deserve one another's company

I think they do deserve each other.

For some strange reason, I can tolerate the Grieg much more when I am driving through the Scottish Highlands, but then it is only really the slow movement.

The only time I can appreciate the Schumann is when I am trying to force a turd.

Thal

[ahinton]

I stand corrected Sir. I am indeed one bang short.

I couldn't possibly comment!

I listened to this concerto again last night and almost died of tedium.

Why? - I mean, why did you subject yourself to it yet again?

Then I listened to the Winding concerto and all was well again.

Winding up, presumably...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think they do deserve each other.

For some strange reason, I can tolerate the Grieg much more when I am driving through the Scottish Highlands, but then it is only really the slow movement.

The only time I can appreciate the Schumann is when I am trying to force a turd.

To do what? Oh, I see. The "slow movement" again, presumably? Your remark here seems somehow to paraphrase the infamous one made by Reger (who was himself influenced by Schumann in no small degree) about being in the smallest room of his house with a critic's negative review of the première of one of his quartets before him that would shortly be behind him, other than for the rather obvious (if unpleasant to relate) instance of your constipatory reference here.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

  It should be: bang/Banngg! bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang, bang/bang . . Bang! Bang!! 

      

Thanks, now I don't have to go home and listen to it! 

[thalbergmad]

Why? - I mean, why did you subject yourself to it yet again?

Because there are that many recordings and that many people who like it, that I have to convince myself every now and again that it is refuse of the worst kind.

Why, why, why, oh bloody why are there so many recordings?. Is it because it is a safe choice and is not difficult for pianist and orchestra?

Status Quo had more imagination than Schumann did in the last movement of this bilge.

Thal

[ahinton]

Because there are that many recordings and that many people who like it, that I have to convince myself every now and again that it is refuse of the worst kind.

Well, Thal, that demonstrates to anyone here that doesn't fully understand that you have the patience and the willingness to have another go at something like this - good for you! It isn't "refuse of the wrost kind", but it is certainly eleventh-rate Schumann, to my mind. Not even Argerich persuades me otherwise!

Why, why, why, oh bloody why are there so many recordings?. Is it because it is a safe choice and is not difficult for pianist and orchestra?

I rather suspect that you may well have answered your own question here - and correctly, at that.

Status Quo had more imagination than Schumann did in the last movement of this bilge.

I'm not about to comment on that comparison, but I do agree that the finale of the Schumann piano concerto is the worst - and the most irritating - of its three movements by quite some distance.

Best,

Alistair

[redbaron]

If it's good enough for Argerich then it's good enough for me.

[cmg]

If it's good enough for Argerich then it's good enough for me.

Well, Martha probably was sight-reading it at age 6 and had it memorized just from that one, first read-through, so she didn't have to practice and practice and practice, and live with the damned thing's innumerable annoyances the way we mere mortals have had to.