The Appassionata Project

[starstruck5]

Had to delete the listista performance -cos I tried embedding it - but it is awesome.

[candlelightpiano]

Why did you have to delete it? Couldn't you just post the link to it? She seems to play every piece imaginable! And imaginably well!

[ajspiano]

Ok.. Let ditch the 4 notes cycle I put up as a theory.. Last night I did the following, which i think worked. Though I couldn't possibly say it's the only way or the right way without more thinking and practice

Firstly, I could argue that there is in/out but it's not and upper arm or shoulder thing. Wrist is higher for the F and Ab and lower for the C's which means that when playing with fingers 23 the 15 is back out of the keys slighty as a result of the wrist position. They then move forward again with the movement of the forarm down toward the lower wrist position. In the same way, 23 pull back on the keys a bit with the movement to the higher wrist.

In order to play it I have to organise it as one arm motion combined with a wrist snap type motion, arm played the octave, wrist snap played the f/Ab. Has to be some finger articulation to the notes or the finger 2/3 would get lost. Conciously I was playing in quaver pulses not semiquavers or crotchets.

This idea works but seems to put a bit of pressure on my 2/3 fingers that I don't really like. Either I'm wrong or it needs refinement.. Will see soon no doubt.

[starstruck5]

Ok.. Let ditch the 4 notes cycle I put up as a theory.. Last night I did the following, which i think worked. Though I couldn't possibly say it's the only way or the right way without more thinking and practice

Firstly, I could argue that there is in/out but it's not and upper arm or shoulder thing. Wrist is higher for the F and Ab and lower for the C's which means that when playing with fingers 23 the 15 is back out of the keys slighty as a result of the wrist position. They then move forward again with the movement of the forarm down toward the lower wrist position. In the same way, 23 pull back on the keys a bit with the movement to the higher wrist.

In order to play it I have to organise it as one arm motion combined with a wrist snap type motion, arm played the octave, wrist snap played the f/Ab. Has to be some finger articulation to the notes or the finger 2/3 would get lost. Conciously I was playing in quaver pulses not semiquavers or crotchets.

This idea works but seems to put a bit of pressure on my 2/3 fingers that I don't really like. Either I'm wrong or it needs refinement.. Will see soon no doubt.

In other words this is really difficult - As Birba said in his video -everything has to be so free here -so the wrist snap has to be like the snap of a butterfly landing on a twig -The analogy is an exaggeration I suppose -but that is the way it feels to me -

[ajspiano]

In other words this is really difficult - As Birba said in his video -everything has to be so free here -so the wrist snap has to be like the snap of a butterfly landing on a twig -The analogy is an exaggeration I suppose -but that is the way it feels to me -

Indeed..  there is a danger of applying too much pressure with fingers 2 and 3, and ending up with a tense keybedding kind of thing.. I think thats why I was feeling the strain in my fingers. Mayb I need to get off those fingers a bit lighter. Will look forward to testing that out this evening.

[birba]

[costicina]

This thread is so engrossing ...and full of useful insights!!! What a great idea, Birba, to show us how you tackle a piece from scratch. I can't wait the moment to experiment myself your approach. Zeher, Starstruck. Lotal,m1469are giving excellent contribution, too. 
I'm forced to take a break from the piano to finish a very urgent and tough job  But as soon as I'm finished, I'll be back, with renewed enthusiasm.
I miss my piano practice 
Marg

[birba]

Off for some top-modeling?

[candlelightpiano]

Birba, that was terrific!! Today, it sounded like the Appassionata that I've always known and loved. The tempo was pretty brisk for practicing and I think only you can practice at such a fast clip. Sorry, can't provide any valuable feedback like the others. Only my undying support! Glad your thumb is better. I hope you're taking a high dose of Vitamin C.

[starstruck5]

I logged in to download the Liszt Consolation and found Birba had posted a video!  Excellent insights as always -I have downloaded the video and will watch it more carefully later -meanwhile it is back to my own humble efforts! 

[zheer]

Hmmmm,

Well the tempo, Allegro Ma non troppo (fast but not much).

Once all the deatails have been covered such as - Notes, Dynamices, expression marks, Rhythm, pedaling, rubato and stylistics detail, then the performer can be free with the tempo, so I'd advice not to worry about speed yet, just the more important part, the 'detail'.
I recorded this over 5 years ago, since then I've changed a lot of things through really looking closely at the written text.

It's a little like sculpting, chip away and you'll creat a work of art.

[birba]

When I start a work, I have to have an idea about how fast it's going to be.  Everything changes if you haven't already a finished product in your mind.  You have to work towards that end.  For example, if I don't have that presto in my mind, I can't practise the details slow.  My practising has to be aimed towards that presto.  Maybe 144 is a bit too fast.  Allegro ma non troppo.  Well, if you just go by that, the tempo might be 120.  But, of course, that is too slow.  Or maybe not.  Allegro ma non troppo, refers to the character of the piece.  Not just an arbitrary 1-2 beat.  Right?  No, I think 138-144 is the right tempo.  At least for me.

[costicina]

Off for some top-modeling?

A much more intellectual, but far less glamorous and funny job 

I can't resist the temptation to glance at your vid... The first impression is that after trying a passage a couple of time, you are able to find by instinct the most efficient  hand/fingers position, the logic of movement. Your experimenting phase is much less excruciating, and very very interesting. I'll use some of your ideas for the repetaed chords in Suggestion Diabolique.
I don't think you have to worry too much about speed. 'Non troppo' = nots slurred, but intelligible, clear, distinct, nuanced...
Time out, back to work, away from the piano and my beloved PS friends  
 

[zheer]

Birba,

I'm not sure what the tempo should be, also I don't know really what the exact process of learning a master piece is. However I do know that we need to have a very CONSCIOUS approach when note reading ect ect, then as you put it the end result in the mind (minds ear) is for me a very UNCONSCIOUS process, the music should be a combination of unconscious and heart mind. If that makes any sense,
but yes definitely your approach of really thinking about what your doing is outstanding.

[starstruck5]

I have decided to post something which is far below the standard I hoped for -This clip will give you an insight into my struggle with nervousness and tension -I know the notes are in me but I can't get any consistency. I must go back to playing this through very slowly without stopping many times -

In any case this is kind of baring my soul -don't be too hard on me! This is what I call the struggle phase -big time -Maybe I should learn a Haydn Sonata instead.

The video and sound quality is not good -just a built in microphone on the mac and i-movie for now -I have ordered a Zoom Cam. -

[costicina]

But it's much, much better than you think, you are nearer to your goal than you think!!!!
I've not the time now (nor the competence) to express a more articulate opinion, but I got a very very positive impression.
Keep on, please, the Appassionata is yours, because you have the right passion to play well this awesome piece.
Good luck, I whish you all the best
Marg

[candlelightpiano]

Nice video, StarStruck5! Good tempo. Sounded pretty good.

Since you mentioned tension, Megadodd gave me an excellent relaxation exercise in the Consolation thread and I've had positive feedback since my last video that my playing was much more relaxed. I do the exercises before and during practice. It may help you, too, if you wish to give it a try.

Keep up the good work!

[costicina]

I feel the urge to say this:

very few, if any, would have the heart and the humility  to do what Birba is doing in this thread,  getting in the game with humour, intelligence, unselfishness to show us the painstaking, patient labour required to tackle a demanding piece.   His last two videos are the best piece of didactic I’ve ever seen. I’d suggest to every teacher to follow his example (but Birba’s charme is inimitabile ).
Once again: grazie Maestro!!!!

[birba]

Like I said, I feel exactly on the same level as everyone else.  Alright, maybe I've got a few more years on me and bit more experience, but I really feel as if I'm always at step one in learning something.  This appassionata thing has gotten to me and I'm even thinking of substituting the chopin op. 35 with it in possible recital in the near future.  And I really appreciate everybody's feedback.

[birba]

I have decided to post something which is far below the standard I hoped for -This clip will give you an insight into my struggle with nervousness and tension -I know the notes are in me but I can't get any consistency. I must go back to playing this through very slowly without stopping many times -

In any case this is kind of baring my soul -don't be too hard on me! This is what I call the struggle phase -big time -Maybe I should learn a Haydn Sonata instead.

The video and sound quality is not good -just a built in microphone on the mac and i-movie for now -I have ordered a Zoom Cam. -

I followed with great interest your video.  I guess we're the only ones with enough guts to do something!  Anyway, you're on the right track I think.  You've got the little dynamic enunciations of the phrases imbedded in your fingers plus  technical facility.  The sound is pretty bad - I mean the video sound.  There's one part you have to watch out for.  The syncopated octaves right at the beginning.  Also you could use MORE tension in that left hand!  It's a little bit superficial  But I certainly know what you mean about less tension in the fingerwork.  But it's not a bad as you think, at least from a visual point of view.  I'll post something today to show you what I think.

[ajspiano]

I guess we're the only ones with enough guts to do something!

Hey! - give me a minute (or a week :/) - I've barely had more than 10 mins to look at it so far.

[zheer]

If you can find a research library make use of it, you'll find all that you need to know about a piece of music on a intellectual level, tempo, ryhthm and stylistic issues, you also don't have to be a phd student .
This is my approach to Chopin's and Brahm's concerto, 1 sight read through the piece, 2 work on the piece (sculpting), record the piece,
4 re-work on the piece and finally do research on the piece. Then the piece will be in your rep if you need it in the future.
I think Beethoven's Apassionat is more demanding than these concertos, so even more time and work is required for them if you guys are on that project. BTW project is exactly what is.

[candlelightpiano]

I guess we're the only ones with enough guts to do something!  

No guts no glory! I'm IN, even though I've only had two plus years of piano lessons.

AJ: YOU CAN DO IT!!

[starstruck5]

Thanks so much to Choo and Marge for your kind and helpful words. 

Thanks also to Birba for the technical feedback.  You have all made the painful process of posting my first video a positive one, even though I am disappointed with it.  Hopefully the next one will be better- and probably I'll play my ancient upright.

I know I have tons of work to do in many areas. 

I don't blame you Choo for wanting to play this music-it is something really special!

[candlelightpiano]

StarStruck: I notice on your vid, you didn't begin with the trumpets of the last judgement - the 13 ff chords. Should I begin there? That's where the 3rd mvmt begins, right?

[birba]

[candlelightpiano]

WOW!!  That was great, Birba! I just began practicing this piece - I know I'm in well over my head here! - at 80 beats to the quarter note so all your talk about fingering and dynamics was just what I needed. Your piece is coming along really good. I loved it!  Thanks!!

[starstruck5]

   Just what I needed Birba -your video is awesome -I wish I had a fraction of your confidence -and understanding -but I am determined to rid myself of those nervous demons! It's good to know there are times when more tenison is desirable -lol Glad your thumb is at least improving!

In my next video Choo I will begin with the 13 chords!  You are right this is where the movement begins -though the chord appears twice in different registers and with different, more dense,  voicing, but arpeggiated -at the end of the second movement -it goes from very soft to very loud and Beethoven asks us to hold them -I guess as long as you can create an almost unbearable tension -

[ajspiano]

I got to do some practice today, my first solid go at the appasionata. I recorded this video once I had a basic handle on what I was doing. Before today I had worked on the fingering and thought about a few isolating sections though ofcourse...  not a teaching vid.. this is just where I'm at..

[birba]

That was very helpful!  I especially liked to hear you talk about the difficulty of anchoring the dotted rythm of the left hand with the running 16th notes of the right.  That is definitely a problem with me.  I'm going to try that excericise of stopping on the thumb of the right hand.  You're right, it really has to be anchored well.  You have a very fluent and natural finger dexterity.  It makes me green with envy.    
Love your roommate too!

[ajspiano]

I'm going to try that excericise of stopping on the thumb of the right hand.  You're right, it really has to be anchored well.

The main thing I tried to 'feel' was the RH 2nd finger (your using your thumb? last note of the bar) perfectly unified with the thumb of the LH. Then the LH 5th finger has to trigger the RH thumb to begin the next run. They have to feel kind of connected, not two separate notes (though obviously they are separate in time). You can't be consciously finishing the low F then going to the RH c, the hands must work together as a unit otherwise the time/rhythm/flow falls apart.

I wonder whether I should hold the low F a bit more, its fairly staccato in my video..  will have to test it out.

[zheer]

When thinking about which fingers to use for the Appassionata, there seems to have been a lot of talk on this, I think we should always adapt our fingers to the music and not the music to our fingers. Basically we've got to ask, what is the music asking from us, when we know the answer to that, we then should choose the appropriate fingers to reach that musical intent.

[starstruck5]

Thanks for posting your progress video AJ!  You do have wonderful hands and finger facility -as Birba says -your pinky finger is actually bigger than my 3rd finger!  Don't see the pont of envy though, because that won't make my fingers larger or better -    What will help is your idea about thinking in terms of left hand and right hand working together kind of like a trigger -

I am still struggling with old fingering ghosts -they haunt me still! 

Nice cameo role from your dog there -what is his or her name?

[birba]

When thinking about which fingers to use for the Appassionata, there seems to have been a lot of talk on this, I think we should always adapt our fingers to the music and not the music to our fingers. Basically we've got to ask, what is the music asking from us, when we know the answer to that, we then should choose the appropriate fingers to reach that musical intent.

I agree with you there.  For example the opening I do 1-2-4-3.  That jump over of the 3rd fingering lands on the apex of that phrase.  I guess the thumb would too, but I find the 3 more emphatic.  Also, I think we have to adapt our fingering to OUR fingers.  Small hands might get around much more swiftly here then larger ones.  In fact, I don't think a small hand would find 1-2-4-1 very convenient.

[starstruck5]

I agree with you there.  For example the opening I do 1-2-4-3.  That jump over of the 3rd fingering lands on the apex of that phrase.  I guess the thumb would too, but I find the 3 more emphatic.  Also, I think we have to adapt our fingering to OUR fingers.  Small hands might get around much more swiftly here then larger ones.  In fact, I don't think a small hand would find 1-2-4-1 very convenient.

Hmmm  that's the fingering I currently use -  My original fingering was 1-2 3 -4-5 etc and that was in the days when I didn't analyse so much and definitely wasn't ready  -putting my weakest finger on the strong beat just didn't occur to me -and in fact Donald Tovey in the Associated Boards Edition actually said this fingering was not so difficult if you carry the thumb ( proper rotation) I play the cross hand thirds much better using my old fingering -

I also didn't think of actually changing the hand position -as you and AJ do so well -now I try it and it is ok -but I can't keep changing my fingering -so something has to be settled on permanently -or I will never make progress -

EDITdo
I just tried your fingering AJ and Birbas -I have to say you get the pulse much better -and you are right Birba -for my small hand it feels I can get more speed now -thanks guys . It will a while now getting this fully ingrained -but as it is more musical I think I can work with it -

[ajspiano]

Nice cameo role from your dog there -what is his or her name?

His name is Luke - Obviously I'm bias, but i strongly believe he's the most awesome animal on the planet  - maybe i'll get him to do some of his tricks in a video one day.

your pinky finger is actually bigger than my 3rd finger!

really? that would be like knocking off my 3rd finger from the nail joint..   my pinky is 6.5cm (just measuring now, I don't know this kind of thing off the top of my head )..  my 3rd is a touch under 9cm.

[candlelightpiano]

AJ:  You posted a good number of cool photos of Luke in the pets thread down there. He's really cute. You have long fingers. I measured mine to compare. My pinky is only 6 cm from base to tip. My 3rd finger is a little over 8 cm base to tip. StarStruck5: What are your measurements?  
ROFL

[costicina]

I' ashamed to reveal my measures...My hands/fingers are so small and thin 
Sometimes this is a big handicap

[zheer]

That jump over of the 3rd fingering lands on the apex of that phrase.         Also, I think we have to adapt our fingering to OUR fingers.  Small hands

Yes true, I think that is Busoni's choice of fingering too. Just as an experiment we can accent the C (3rd finger) the Aflat (thumb) and the F (thumb)ect ect though-out this sonata.
Yes very true about hand span, but that's it often we do that, Rachmaninoff's opening of PC 2, most can not play the opening chord as written, so the music is changed as a result.

[birba]

[zheer]

Very interesting Birba,

The memorising process of music (in my opinion) is both an ACTIVE process and a PASSIVE process. What I mean by this, is we can memorise music using the process you had just demonstrated (excellent) Actively + theoretically (intellect), but also equally but possibly more importantly, to memorise PASSIVELY, so basically listening to the music, sight reading the music ect ect, when we learn passively the learning goes on even when we are in sleep state.

Of course much like a muscle the more we memorise/learn the better we get at it.

[zheer]

Actually you might not believe me, but if you've sight read through the music (correctly) once, then the music is in your memory for ever.
The thing is very few people can access that memory at will.

[lotal]

That is fine. I used somewhat the same method to learn foreign language. It works very effectively. The only nuance I would add is a sort of feedback from memorised elements for you to know which elements should be repeated more often than the others. With words I multiplied time period twice for the next looking up time when I remembered the word right away, and divided it twice when I had not remembered the word. That way each element (a word) took as much specific time as needed. Without feedback all elements took equal time shares irrespective of their difficulty.

OK. That was for memorization. Good indeed. But what about learning performance eveness of the chosen sections? Do you practice them just few times a session, like on the video, passing fast through all of the 20 sections for short time period; or 5-10-20 minutes are necessary to play a difficult section per a session, limiting the session to practice only 1-2 difficult sections?

[birba]

It's not just for the memory.  It's also for solving technical difficulties.  After I've gone through all 27 sections - it will take a few days, I repeat the sections I've already done, going through them once or twice - I combine the sections and maybe have 10.  I use the same method of choosing at random a section - this will take less time, of course, then the original process.  Then I combine them and perhaps have 4 or 5.  And it goes on like this until I have the movement hopefully learned and homogenous.

[birba]

[starstruck5]

I obviously don't have your training Birba or expertise -but for me, as long as you play the notes the Composer actually wrote, and with the correct spirit -the actual division of hands is kind of irrelevant. The only thing that has changed from the introduction of this theme, is the counter theme echoing in two different registers - It leads to that passionate Rinforzando, where the intenisty is at boiling point -though some editions actually mark the rinforzando as ritardando -according to Schnabel anyhow -Do you think a rit is useful here?

I found your practise methods very interesting -a bit of John Cage in there!

I hurt my arms today carrying a piano stool (albeit flat packed) through town -not a massive walk back to the car park -but enough to make me feel I've been carrying an elephant up a mountain. I'll still play though regardless- even thoug it may be unswise when there is a muscle strain -

BTW Choo my measurements    in the left hand are 1= 5.5cm 2 = 7.1 -3 = 8 4th = 7.5 5th = 5.5 cm - I assume it is similar for the right -

There you go -I'm stuck with it.

[candlelightpiano]

STARSTRUCK:    That's hilarious but thanks for providing it! My hand is slightly larger than yours.  You should take a piano break for a day or two till you recover from the strain or sprain. You should at least ice it. Practicing when injured may be more detrimental than good. You'll be amazed how good you feel after an off day or two. The Appasionata will still be here.

BIRBA:  Thanks very much for the two videos. I found App 4 very helpful when you talked about the way you practice and memorize by dividing the music into so many sections and working a section for 20 mins or so and randomly selecting a section to practice, something I haven't done but plan to incorporate. It will be useful for any piece I learn. As for App 5, I think whatever works for the pianist is fine as long as you preserve the musical integrity and spirit of the piece, which you do very well indeed!

[zheer]

Very interesting Birba,

It seems (in my opinnion) that you adapted your choice of fingering to the music, nothing wrong with that, and if it feels comfortable too well then that's perfect.
Here is the problem, music is very subjective, so the only way we can find-out what Beethoven really wanted is through old fashioned scholarly ways of doing research at academic libraries and by paying attention to the written notation.

[ajspiano]

I'm ofcourse fairly atypical here in that I don't think there is a single dot on the page that should be held sacred. It's not to say that we shouldn't observe the composers intention, but I think our intention and creative ideas are far more important than beethovens. He's just the guidelines.

I remember being endlessly frustrated as a kid with this very idea - that it's only acceptable to play what the composer wanted. Composers are held up high as genius's whose work is perfect and untouchable. But really, who's to say beethoven wouldn't have said "wow, birbas fingering here is far better than how I'm playing it" or "I like how you play it louder here where I'm playing soft, it makes the passage so exciting".

[birba]

I agree with you all.  It's sort of difficult for me at times to think this way, coming from that sort of schooling I had.  For example the big broken arpeggio on the first page of the sonata.  It's so much easier to break it up - but is the effect the same?  It's the result that's important.  The final effect.