The Appassionata Project

[starstruck5]

  

As an amateur pianist -who has no interest in playing in public -or teaching even -I just want to be able to play the Beethoven Sonata OP57  well enough to do justice to it -this was the piece that made me want to learn to play the piano in the first place!

I want to begin with the 3rd Movement first -

I need all the help and encouragement I can get -so if this thread gets any support, hopefully I can post my my progress so far on video - perhaps not played to speed? I don't even know the right approach. I don't have a teacher these days -so I am bound to miss things and mess up in places I am not even aware - I have made some progress with the first 115 measures so far -

Also I am a nervous kind of person and not that photogenic -so the video will be of my hands only probably!

Any suggestions on how I should approach this project welcome -

[birba]

I'd like to participate, too!  I never really learned this sonata.  I would really enjoy trying to achieve the impossible!  As soon as my thumb heals and I can play without crying, I'll start the third movement, too.  In the meantime, I'll be interested in following your progress.  I think the first thing in the third movement is the proper fingering in the running 16th notes.  What is your fingering?

[costicina]

Hi Starstruck,
interesting project ideed!!!! With Birba as a coach, your chances to succeed are going to increase dramatically...I'm almost tempted to join, but I have my tough nuts to crack  .
Anyway I'll follow you with great interest, score at hand: Birba's and other competens forumeers' insights will be sure useful for other pieces too.
Good luck, count on my support!!!
Marg

[starstruck5]

   Thanks so much to both of you!  I really appreciate your support -

It is definitely going to be a challenge for me!

I really hope your thumb heals soon Birba -as I have only just got over a stupid thumb injury myself -I prodded myself deeply with a fork while making Jacket Potatoes oven safe!  (No microwave for me)

I have had to lose a bad habit wrt fingering from my botched attempt to play this a few years ago -I have tried to reimprint a different fingering now for the running 16th's -this seems to be the most comfortable for me -

123 -4543-1432-1342 then for the Gb/C bit etc- 123-4543-1432-1432-1231-2341-2342-1231 etc

[candlelightpiano]

THIS is my favorite sonata of ALL time! Sounds like you've already made a lot of progress. Can't wait to watch a recording!! Will be following faithfully. Birba, I'm sorry your thumb is still bothering you. Don't work too hard. Give it the rest it needs.

Here's a Masterclass for the 3rd:

[kalirren]

I worked on this piece for quite a while; never finished it.

The hardest parts of the 3rd movement for me have been:

1) coordination and evenness in right and left hands just after the left repeat sign when the piece goes into B-flat minor, especially the integrity of the theme-carrying middle voice;

2) clarity in the last time the opening theme is stated in recapitulation, with hands crossed/interleaving; the left hand is especially problematic.  I usually have the right hand actually take the first four notes of the left hand 16th run, while the left hand crosses over to take over on the D-flat, just so I can play all the stupid notes on time;  :p

so it's RH: rest C-F-Ab-C 1235 and then jump to its own part with 1 16th note of rest clearance:
LH: F octave , 4 16ths of rest clearance, then enters on Db with 212 3234 5435 | 25321 2...

3) left hand jumps when you have sudden transition from bass note in left hand to double intervals in the transitional theme in the recapitulation, and playing those notes together with right hand 16th runs;

4) togetherness in right hand chords in coda.

I would advise starting with those things.

My fingering for the opening 16th runs:

starting on C-F: | rest 123 5 (!) 432 1432 1232 | rest ... (so the key is 5-4 crossover from C to D-flat)
Db-Gb: |123 4541 3432 1432 1...

But I haven't yet found a good fingering for the Bb minor section at the beginning of the development.

[ajspiano]

awesome - forum is really starting to come alive.

Count me in too - though i'll probably have to play catch up with you guys. Not sure I'll be able to start immediately, at least not with any decent amount of focus, but I can't say no since its such a great opportunity to drag advice out of birba

Who can name a few great recordings for reference? I'm clueless here. Haven't listened to Beethoven properly since I was about 7 when I first fell head over heels for moonlight 3rd mov (sole motivation for learning till I discovered oscar peterson and jazz in general), and the pastorale 1st mov.

[costicina]

Arrau Arrau Arrau Arrau...

[birba]

The video was very interesting.  She must not be over 30 and she's on the faculty of MSM!  The orientals are at it again...   I think her fingering is good, too.  I have tried 124-3432-1432-1342, reccomended by Busoni and that works too.
The tempo sounds good.  Non troppo is the keyword.  She doesn't mention the fact that playing the coda slightly less then twice the speed, creates a faster impression then exactly twice the speed.  Think about that.
And I'm not coaching here!  I'm learning along with everyone else!

[candlelightpiano]

Arrau Arrau Arrau Arrau...

Emil Gilels was my favorite Beethovenist.

[starstruck5]

   Thanks Choo so much for your input so far. The masterclass was very helpful for me -the only problem was that I liked her suggested fingering for the important 16ths theme so much -I changed my fingering to putting my thumb on the second higher C -and this is a change for the third time now -which is not healthy -so I spent this afternoon playing my new fingering VERY slowly, over and over -and sneakily trying to fool my brain and fingers that all other configurations actually never happened at all! Consequently I felt there was little point making a progress video -because effectively I have gone backwards -but hopefully in the long term it will be beneficial -

One of my favourite versions of this movement is Brendel -he does something quite magical with the 16ths -I will try and figure out precisely what that is -There is no hope of me ever being to play like Arrau or Brendel -but I can learn much from them.

I am using the Schnabel Edition -I also have the Associated Boards Edition -with notes by Donald Tovey.  Is there an edition I should try and acquire for this work?

[ajspiano]

The masterclass was very helpful for me -the only problem was that I liked her suggested fingering for the important 16ths theme so much

I havent watched. - to confuse the issue further I'll add mine.. This is what I decided on last night at first look at the piece, just for that first chunk, RH bar 20-21.

123 1321 3432 1342.

I nutted out an exact fingering for the first 35 bars last night.. maybe will have to try birbas suggestion though too..  I hadnt read that until now. 124 3 seems like a smaller jump for the hand than 123(4) 1 is.

And I'm not coaching here!  I'm learning along with everyone else!

yes, but there is much to be learned simply by observing the learning/thinking process of a competent individual.

[candlelightpiano]

STARSTRUCK5:  I wish I could offer "input" but I'm way out of your league.  But since I so absolutely love this sonata, I'm always listening to it and watching it on YouTube.  I can only wish you all the very best in this project. I know you'll do much better than I've done in FI.  

How long have you been working on this piece? How long have you been playing piano? I'm asking because I wonder if I'll ever be able to learn this piece. Probably not for many, many years, if at all. If Birba says he is learning it now, and he is such a formidable pianist, I think my chance of ever learning it is next to zero! But that's okay. I enjoy watching you guys at it. Sometimes I think it's more fun to be an onlooker. You get to enjoy it without sweating it!!   Well, if Birba is learning this piece, I look forward to some videos from him, too. That would be so much fun!

[starstruck5]

Thanks AJ for posting your fingering - it seems more comfortable to me to play the Db with the 4th finger -although each to his own!  You have so much longer fingers than me! 

I am excited that both you and Birba have taken interest in this thread, because I have much to learn. I agree with your observation 100%

Choo, in answer to your question -I have been playing the piano for around 20 years!  Although for the past five years I have spent a lot of time producing Electronic Music. I got very involved in composing songs - I backed away though -I don't like the music business at all.

 -Piano-wise I am mega rusty now -it is all coming back slowly -but it does take time and patience -

Also, I think you are progressing amazingly well -you have great teachers on this forum -and I think you will achieve whatever you want to  -  you have enough passion, the sky is the limit.

[candlelightpiano]

Thanks for sharing your music background, Starstruck5. Like I said over in the "other" room, you're a real good sport and I'm so glad I got to know you through FI. WOW! Composing songs? Cool. You're so talented. Birba says he is not teaching you, though. But knowing him, I'm sure he'll give you loads of tips and encouragement along the way. He's already beginning to do that. I'm excited that both of you are learning and look forward to your videos soon. Yes, there are THE BEST teachers here. And they're so generous with their time. It's the best place to be at. I do have the passion, just not the confidence. Maybe it just takes time. But being around people like you sure helps! And you're making this a VERY exciting place to be at! 

[ajspiano]

123 -4543 - this was your original fingering for the beginning of that passage..

I just thought i'd point something out here, so that you can figure out better options yourself.

First rule (guideline with boatloads of exceptions) of fingering - use the short fingers (1 and 5) on white keys, the long fingers (234) on black keys.

You violated the principle by putting the 4th on a white key (C) followed by the 5th on a black key (Db)...  Doing that means you either have to move significantly into the keys for the C and Db, or you have to twist your wrist around significantly to get you're 5th finger onto the Db. Both are problematic.. 

[m1469]

Watching, with interest!

[birba]

I'm hoping in the next few days this d.... thumb will heal.  In the meantime, look at measures 64-73 and measures 255-265 left hand.  I heard someone complain about that in an Agosti masterclass, and he said just floor the pedal and no one will notice!  It is impossible.  It's so awkward when an octave lands on a weak beat.  Suggestions anyone?       

[lotal]

Wow! Just the thing I have been doing for two years already. I am also an amateur of 51 y.o. mostly selftaught. Although I started learning piano being 6 (once a week), I entered a music school at 9 to gave it up after 3 next years. Occasionally I tried later to continue by myself, when being adult, but only at 48 I got enough time to devote myself to piano. Now I am 51 and practice on DP Roland FP-7.

I am still not ready to publish my progress with Appassionata on YouTube, as I consider it too slopy yet, and I am not satisfied with my technique on it. Still, I do record draft audio to mark and follow my progress on the piece. The last recordings were made a couple months ago and I may share them, for comparion reasons only:
Part 1 https://www.divshare.com/download/16203781-1e9
Part 2 https://www.divshare.com/download/16145597-b32
Part 3 https://www.divshare.com/download/16140548-3d3

I never found a printed guide on learning the Appassionata, therefore it may indeed be interesting and useful to share thoughts about obstacles and interpreations in it with others, who is doing the same.

By the way, I am a Russian, living far to east from Moscow, so do not pay much attention to my English errors ))

[candlelightpiano]

LOTAL:  It's very good!!  I enjoyed listening to you very much. You play very well for someone who only had 6 years of piano lessons. Maybe there's hope for me!    But I think you're extraordinarily talented. Can't say that about myself. And your English is excellent!

Couldn't find any written material for learning to play this piece. All I have is Andras Schiff's lecture, which I always enjoy and which may be helpful:

https://audio.theguardian.tv/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/12/05/02_23fminop57.mp3

[starstruck5]

Wow! Just the thing I have been doing for two years already. I am also an amateur of 51 y.o. mostly selftaught. Although I started learning piano being 6 (once a week), I entered a music school at 9 to gave it up after 3 next years. Occasionally I tried later to continue by myself, when being adult, but only at 48 I got enough time to devote myself to piano. Now I am 51 and practice on DP Roland FP-7.

I am still not ready to publish my progress with Appassionata on YouTube, as I consider it too slopy yet, and I am not satisfied with my technique on it. Still, I do record draft audio to mark and follow my progress on the piece. The last recordings were made a couple months ago and I may share them, for comparion reasons only:
Part 1 https://www.divshare.com/download/16203781-1e9
Part 2 https://www.divshare.com/download/16145597-b32
Part 3 https://www.divshare.com/download/16140548-3d3

I never found a printed guide on learning the Appassionata, therefore it may indeed be interesting and useful to share thoughts about obstacles and interpreations in it with others, who is doing the same.

By the way, I am a Russian, living far to east from Moscow, so do not pay much attention to my English errors ))

Welcome to the thread Lotal!  Really glad you decided to join us on this mountain climb -

You have at least learnt all the movements!! -brilliant achievement in itself! will listen to more later. I did notice that in the opening bars of the first movement though, that you play the wrong notes for the trills in bar 3 -the notes of the trill are built on C D natural and E natural -Also you need to make the opening  notes feel more legato and mysterious -and even a bit ominous -something menacing and in the distance I like to think of it as -Which edition are you using by the way?

Thanks AJ for the tips on fingering -you are right of course -that is why I changed it! 

And Birba , all I know is that Schnabel suggests here that you play these passages non troppo legato and dry! I find these bars very difficult right now! Getting that subtle crescendo and diminuendo also -really hard for me. I think a lot of pianists blur the whole thing with full pedal!

Last but not Least Choo -Thanks for your kind words also -

[candlelightpiano]

Barenboim Masterclass with Lang Lang. Every time I watch Lang Lang, I die laughing!

[m1469]

I ♥ Barenboim 

[birba]

I listened to bits and pieces of lotal's appassionata.  It's very wierd (not in a bad sense!).  You have great finger dexterity for someone who's only been playing for 6 years.  And not just that.  You have an innate musical ability that comes out in even the difficult finger-work passages.  But there's a lot that has to be changed.  Your biggest problem is the tempo and your distortion of it.  You change tempos like it they were going out of style!  And it's not as if you can't keep the same tempo, you can.  You may have to settle for a moderate tempo at the moment to play it through and get the musical idea.  for example in the opening, don't dwell on the trills (and you are playing the wrong notes, by the way)-there's only one slight ritardando on the first page, and that's it.  You will be amazed at what a difference it will make.  Because you have so much going for you!

[lotal]

candlelightpiano
Thank you for your input and the kind words. I think that two years are much that a hare may be trained to drum, therefore I do not recon that the result is so much of extraordinary on my behalf. You know 80% of result are achieved with 20% of effort. But it is the rest 20% which make the sence of music. I will just try to get as much closer to the real music as I could, that is all.
I've downloaded the lecture to listen it later. And I watched the Lang Lang video - so many details yet to polish!

starstruck5
Well put - "the mountain climb". It is the way I feel it ) "The better thing than mountains are the mountains" as is said in a song.
I checked the score of the 3rd measure: you are right - C-D trills... That is the way I believe I play now... Is it not the case in my recording (I did not listened to it lately)? Anyway, C-natural D trills, I completly agree.
As to the quality of touch I myself am not contented with it, I will try to follow your advice. In addition, the mechanics of digital piano adds the obstacles for tiny details performing. It averages the touch. Once in a while I try to compare plying on an accoustic piano grand somewhere else.
I learned M.Pauer's-K.Martinsen's edition (if I spelled it correct).

birba
Thanks for your critics too. It seems that you are right, as other people on other pieces advised me to pay attention to tempo. I appriciate your contribution. Really, I had no one to correct me on my solitude way, and which I hope to get here.

[m1469]

Okay, here is my contribution for today and for now.  This is about 4 pages-worth (of the third movement) and was my review of today (more or less blocking that section out).  I've been working on this piece (which I *heart*) for a few years, putting it down, picking it up again, etc..  Recently, though, I've developed a new learning procedure which I have just started putting into effect with the pieces I've worked on for these years (vs. the Chopin Ballade no. 1, which I'm pretty much learning straight away with this new development).  So, I will start into the next section of this movement shortly.

Here is part of the challenge for me; this actually was a very exciting experience for me to be playing this and recording it to post here, and to feel like it was going well, and I need discipline in maintaining my focus and clarity of mind when I get excited like that - it made me shake even afterwards.  So, I am stalking experience  .

[lotal]

m1469
I will express just my impression of your example, not pretending to be an expert. Pusing aside the slower tempo rate, I percieved your playing as being at the note-wise phase. That is when you have learned the succession of notes and accents. OK, you got there by now. Successfully. It is time now to proceed to making phrases out of the prepered canon-like material, to group the letters to words and sentences. Again, just an opinion of mine... as I heard that.

[starstruck5]

  I listened to your 4 pages m1469 -you are roughly where I am with this!  I think you know when you are slightly out rhythmically and so on -that nasty syncopation in bars 34/35 was pretty good -you didn't shortenthe 8th notes -like some do - -but that leap down to the octaves on F need to be cleaner - -I don't always get this right myself -bars 64 to 75 are very very difficult, but your playing was not bad at all here.  Promising in fact!

I am having trouble with old fingering habits now -and I make unexpected mistakes. Really felt down tonight and felt like giving up if I am honest. I don't feel brave enough to post my efforts yet -though I will grasp the nettle soon -because I have to look on it not as a performance per se -but as part of a learning curve -steep yes -but a curve nevertheless -

Well done you for posting your efforts so far!!

[candlelightpiano]

Really felt down tonight and felt like giving up if I am honest. 

We must be related!!!  I felt like that so many times through FI. Don't give up, StarStruck! I'm sure you're playing way better than you think you are. We all have our up and down days and nights but things will look and feel different tomorrow. Besides, it's Valentine's Day! Why don't you have a glass of champagne and some chocolates. That will make you feel instantly better! I'm going to have some soon and I'll drink a toast to your success!  This is a work-in-progress project. No one is expecting you to play like Arthur Rubenstein!

[birba]

Really good, m1469.  An excellent beginning.  It was like slow-motion performance, which is what we have to aim for in early practising.  That is, the musical intention bound to the fingers.  It has pulse - maybe, overly accented, but this will disappear with speed - drama and clarity. 
Well, I've decided I can't wait for this thumb to heal completely, so I'm going to post something for the left hand today.  That nasty part I talked about.  Which wasn't too bad, m1469.

[starstruck5]

Really good, m1469.  An excellent beginning.  It was like slow-motion performance, which is what we have to aim for in early practising.  That is, the musical intention bound to the fingers.  It has pulse - maybe, overly accented, but this will disappear with speed - drama and clarity. 
Well, I've decided I can't wait for this thumb to heal completely, so I'm going to post something for the left hand today.  That nasty part I talked about.  Which wasn't too bad, m1469.

I shall look forward to it, Birba!

Playing this afternoon, I realised something.   When I started playing -I was really focused on getting to the point where I could play blindingly fast and impressively - I definitely didn't achieve the blindigly and impressive part!  BUT -somewhere along the way I had forgotten that to play a piece like the Appassionata -you can't just be musical -you have to have attack -you have to want to play like a virtuoso. This may seem obvious, but on my return to to the piano I had become somewhat timid -and it is that timidity which is making me screw up! I now need to find that balance between my old impulsive self and the wiser head -well at least I think its wiser musically -if not in any other way.

[candlelightpiano]

Eagerly awaiting your video, Birba!

[lotal]

I will add a little bit about blind virtuosic play of the piece. I found that there are several modes of blind fast play in the course of learning. They differ in the way as the car gears differ. One may play blindly and fast but being at the lower gear, the finger mode. You feel speed and bang your fingers away, but nothing happens, quite discouraging. Then one day you are able to shift to a higher gear, where the hand motions are slightly different altogether, the attention focus leaves the fingers and goes up to hand, wrist and arm, the phrase mode. And later on you learn into, say, the piece mode (I am not there yet), when you mostly control large motions of the body, such as ones of the shoulders and thinks about music connections, general flow. Like climbing up a hierarchy.

At the highest gear level, actually, you must brake yourself with speed. The Appassionata is written, as I perceive it, with a special intention to hide seething emotions under the hood. That is why one should not abuse it with loudness and speed. The listener may only guess himself that a fire is under the surface. A calm behavior of a world karate champion, who is able of much but demonstrates little. It is the more challenging task for the sonata, then getting to the speed. Thus, one should learn to the tempo and beyond it to be able to descend a step and make that impression. Hardly artificial cheating will do, one should be able to play the thing faster really (a real power under the surface, not a bluff and imitation) to play it in the proper way…

[birba]

You're all intimidating me with these comments!  I made a video - but like I said in it, it's only a thinking-out-loud video.  Nothing to learn from it.  Except maybe how dense I am.  I've decided with my thumb the way it is, I'm going to learn the whole third movement with just the left hand and the metronome.

[birba]

ONe thing I noticed while watching this is the stiffness of my hand.  Just like I say what not to do.  Ithink I've got to practise slower this passage.  I want feedback, guys.

[m1469]

I will add a little bit about blind virtuosic play of the piece. I found that there are several modes of blind fast play in the course of learning. They differ in the way as the car gears differ. One may play blindly and fast but being at the lower gear, the finger mode. You feel speed and bang your fingers away, but nothing happens, quite discouraging. Then one day you are able to shift to a higher gear, where the hand motions are slightly different altogether, the attention focus leaves the fingers and goes up to hand, wrist and arm, the phrase mode. And later on you learn into, say, the piece mode (I am not there yet), when you mostly control large motions of the body, such as ones of the shoulders and thinks about music connections, general flow. Like climbing up a hierarchy.

At the highest gear level, actually, you must brake yourself with speed. The Appassionata is written, as I perceive it, with a special intention to hide seething emotions under the hood. That is why one should not abuse it with loudness and speed. The listener may only guess himself that a fire is under the surface. A calm behavior of a world karate champion, who is able of much but demonstrates little. It is the more challenging task for the sonata, then getting to the speed. Thus, one should learn to the tempo and beyond it to be able to descend a step and make that impression. Hardly artificial cheating will do, one should be able to play the thing faster really (a real power under the surface, not a bluff and imitation) to play it in the proper way…

I like this a lot.  I think that where I am at in general is in dealing with an inner wildness that I actually seem to have, and one in which it doesn't function properly for me if I just squelch it altogether, but also doesn't necessarily serve a great cause if I just let it "out" without some kind of training and purpose.  There really is that fire for me, just as part of me, and there is in that something that absolutely doesn't wish to be unwild ... but, that doesn't mean it has to be aimless.  So, I am interested right now in clarifying musical ideas and intentions and giving those physical structures, such as you describe and such as my teachers have been working on with me, too.  I think, I *think* I want to keep clarifying the musical image as the lead in helping what is that wild to go in the musical direction, with direction and focus, and not just "speeding up" for the sake of being faster.  I want first to "capture" the musical intention, then proceed accordingly.  To me, that's a bit different than being just tame or stagnate-seeming, but it is directional and purposeful and useful, yet still powerful (and even more powerful with that purpose).  I guess this is not just a strictly musical response but more something that pertains to a personal challenge with the music, but this is perhaps part of why I am drawn to this piece and just part of my growing process.

Thanks for listening, people, and for feedback, and for the thoughts otherwise expressed in this thread about such a beautiful, amazing work that Beethoven blessed us with .

[zheer]

Beethoven, today I was doing some research at the British Library, possibly the most famous library in the world, the first thing you notice at the music section is that more books have been written on Beethoven than any other composer or religion. Beethoven is BIG and the appassionat my God takes a lot of work, so if you guys can, do some research.

[goldentone]

You're all intimidating me with these comments!  I made a video - but like I said in it, it's only a thinking-out-loud video.  Nothing to learn from it.  Except maybe how dense I am.  I've decided with my thumb the way it is, I'm going to learn the whole third movement with just the left hand and the metronome.

We always learn from your videos, Birba.  That's a pretty good gash in your thumb.  Have you tried any antibiotic creams, like Neosporin which we have here in the States?  Using generous amounts I believe would speed up your healing and work away the pain.

[candlelightpiano]

Birba, thanks for putting out this video so quickly. I enjoyed watching you practice the left hand very much and realize now how incredibly challenging this piece is.  Well, if you're reading this, can you please tell me which measures you were working on? I have the music and would like to follow along more closely.

Your thumb looks terribly painful, by the way. It's a very deep cut.  Go easy with it and take a high dose of Vitamin C. Really helps healing.

[starstruck5]

I made a video in response to yours Birba -which turned out really really badly - I wish I had your lovely speaking voice! I just generally tutted my way through mine with loads of errors -

I made the video in ' imovie', which isn't ideal -it's hard getting a good camera position with a laptop camera for a start -I will try and post it nevertheless if I can work out how to actually import it! At the moment all the share options are greyed out -so I need to get a decent video camera soon as -and check out some i-movie tutorials!

I was trying in my video to explore ways of caressing these double notes -almost stroking and feathering the notes -pulling the inner fingers inwards -trying also to get a nice loose wrist motion   -keeping that caressing idea foremost -I don't know if some half pedalling is better than blurring everything with full pedal -I found ultimately that not pulling the fingers inwards works best -but I'm a long way off here! I think the secret is in the wrist -I think videos can make your writst look more tense than it really is sometimes -

[birba]

Very interesting this "caressing" idea.  That is, using the first two falanges (?)in a brushing motion?
I'm going to try it.  You might have something there.

[starstruck5]

Very interesting this "caressing" idea.  That is, using the first two falanges (?)in a brushing motion?
I'm going to try it.  You might have something there.

It's definitely worth a try -Chopin was fond of it I think -no expert though -

I just recently discovered that practising this with hands together is more useful -because I find you can almost make the left hand a puppet to the right hand -'as it were'  hopefully your cut will heal soon and you can try this out -it doesn't make it tehnically less challenging -but having the right hand there helps!

[ajspiano]

Bare in mind I haven't actually tried this..  My initial "physical" interpretation of the score is that the momentum from the arm should be forward on the 1-5 and backward(slightly) on the interval in the middle. If there is wrist movement it is that it will be higher in the middle, lower for 1-5.

That would be for 2 semiquavers pulses..

Playing 4+ (51,23,51,23 fingering) should include something more like forward, back, down, forward.. So the octave on the beat should slightly more into the keys and be felt stronger (rhythmic impulse) than the one off the beat. Wrist would also be higher on the send octave than the first.. Which should help create the required pattern of arm movement.. Pinky probably sits a tiny bit infront of the thumb too in general.

^stress - not teaching. Hypothesis only.Though I must admit I'm bow busting keen to go test it out..

Also, I find it encouraging that birbas approach to practicing the difficulty mirrored almost exactly as I would have done..


EDIT:
This appears to be inline with my thoughts.. higher wrist/tiny in outs..  its pretty hard to tell ofcourse, and is just her way.. no doubt there are others, she is fairly down and in on the 1-5 notes and he arm is very clearly involved in a big way

- around 54 second mark.. and again ~3:40

[m1469]

This wild, seeks not a master, but rather a kingdom.

[ajspiano]

I just recently discovered that practising this with hands together is more useful -because I find you can almost make the left hand a puppet to the right hand -'as it were' 

This effect would be increased if where your left hand plays C/C, F/Ab - your right hand would play  E/E, G#/B..   it won't sound great (not that bad though right? major 3rd/dim chord), but this way the hands are in perfect symmetry, they mimic each other more efficiently..  not something you'd spend a lot of time doing though..

[lotal]

Bare in mind I haven't actually tried this..  My initial "physical" interpretation of the score is that the momentum from the arm should be forward on the 1-5 and backward(slightly) on the interval in the middle. If there is wrist movement it is that it will be higher in the middle, lower for 1-5.

That would be for 2 semiquavers pulses..

Playing 4+ (51,23,51,23 fingering) should include something more like forward, back, down, forward.. So the octave on the beat should slightly more into the keys and be felt stronger (rhythmic impulse) than the one off the beat. Wrist would also be higher on the send octave than the first.. Which should help create the required pattern of arm movement.. Pinky probably sits a tiny bit infront of the thumb too in general.

I would not support the idea of forward-back motion in these parts. This kind of motion is supplied by the upper arm, which natural frequences are limited. You would not be able to move the upper arm 5 cycles a second when approaching the tempo, at least not building up a stress. Begining with slow motions one may be lured into a trap, not only wasting the time but, which is more hazardous, getting the wrong habbit.

But saying that, I believe at the same that the power is still supplied mainly by the upper arm (shoulder). I 've read Abby Whiteside's articles recently. So, is that a contradiction there?... No. I just recon that the power from the shoulder by the uppaer arm pull motion is injected at every measure beginning to be gradually spent through the measure.

[ajspiano]

its subtle -  its not movement, its momentum shift...  and it creates an overall cycle per crotchet beat, not single cycles per semiquaver.

[lotal]

For those who only start learning the piece I would advise to find most difficult sections throughout all the three Parts and begin their practicing right away. To me some of them took too much time to polish (and I still do). I divide finger difficulties into two categories: memory issues and physical issues. When one takes a new easy piece to learn, one deals exclusively with memory issues. It would be possible to perform that piece right away, if one had super memory abilities (including the muscle memory). The second kind is the real obstacle.  It depends on the neuron network capacity and its ability in your own mind. It is a physical matter. Until you grow necessary neuron links you would not be able to make the specific coordinated complex movement. With memory kinds the learning is more straightforward, the more time a day you devote to a section, the more you gain in learning it. Of course, it is a simplification – memory process should also be handled properly. But with growing neuron links you may not help but “watering the flower shortly day by day” and just wait. That post practice improvement which was described elsewhere. It is of no use to spend much time on the obstacle in the course of the day, you gain nothing with the extra time. Therefore the earlier you start practicing the hardest spots (growing proper neuron links) the earlier you learn the sonata as a whole.

[zheer]

Excellent advice lotal,

I would add, for all you young pianists, those below the age of 30, sight read through as much music as possible, the unconscious mind keeps a record of this, so that when you come back to those pieces they will be familiar to you. The younger you strat the better.
At a basic level, to play the piano we need our Ear, Eye and Touch(all three out-put and in-put chanells need to be fully developed) , then of course we need intellect (theory), Artistry (creativity/musicality), we also need to have a Heart(Beethoven had a big heart), also a Soul, and finally stage precense (Charisma).
There is more to it than this list, but it;s a start anyway.

Oh yes can I add, we also have minds Ear, it's a lot like minds eye, we can use minds ear to improve our playing, we also have the ability to construct (creat) new sound worlds with our internal Ear, (Beethoven's last sonatas) are perfect example of this. Composers need this more than pianists.

[birba]

Such great advice from everyone!  This thread is a precious gem.  I reiterate what zheer said about learning pieces before the age of 30.  It is absolutely true.  I can vouch for that.  I won't go as far to say that those pieces will be your repertoire for life, but they will certainly be the strongest, especially concerning physical technique and memory.