The future of Pianism...

[perfect_pitch]

Well, after hitting 30 years of age, I've suddenly hit a bit of a brick wall in terms of the piano. I now teach full time because it helps pay the mortgage, even though if I won lottery, I'd dump teaching in a second to become a professional pianist and practice 40 hours a week.

The problem is, even if I did win Lottery - what are the chances of becoming famous when you practice for hours and hours a day? It's said that right now, there's approximately 150,000,000 (yes, the correct amount of 0's) students in China right now playing piano and/or violin. Given that even if only 1 in 1,000 go on to be brilliant at piano and want to pursue the piano in competitions etc... we're going to get (in the very near future) literally thousands of Chinese pianists flooding the market. Now, I'm not racist or anything, and have nothing against the Chinese - but given that soon there will be a flood of Chinese Pianists, what is seriously going to happen to those around the rest of the world who wish to pursue Professional playing???

I seriously think that the time to be a pianist was in the past, and now I find myself simply accepting that I'm usually teaching students to play piano as a hobby, and doubt that very many (or almost any) will need me to prepare them to go on to University to do piano. Yes, there are exceptions like Valentina Lisitsa who managed to make her career through YouTube, but that's probably a rare exception.

Is it just me, or am I a pessimist (or just ill-informed???) What are your thoughts?   

[8_octaves]

It's said that right now, there's approximately 150,000,000 (yes, the correct amount of 0's) students in China right now playing piano and/or violin.

At first subtract the violin players.

Secondly, if a so huge number of people there play piano: How is the chance that they are trained the same way, which might be boring? How are they accustomed to the bases of western music: humanism, literature, romanticism?

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[pianist1976]

The problem is, even if I did win Lottery - what are the chances of becoming famous when you practice for hours and hours a day? It's said that right now, there's approximately 150,000,000 (yes, the correct amount of 0's) students in China right now playing piano and/or violin. Given that even if only 1 in 1,000 go on to be brilliant at piano and want to pursue the piano in competitions etc... we're going to get (in the very near future) literally thousands of Chinese pianists flooding the market. Now, I'm not racist or anything, and have nothing against the Chinese - but given that soon there will be a flood of Chinese Pianists, what is seriously going to happen to those around the rest of the world who wish to pursue Professional playing??

In my humble opinion, there's nothing to be afraid of. I don't think the aim of most of these millions of pianists is become a professional concert pianist, not even close to 1 in 1000 proportion. I think it's just one more way to enrich their culture and education (something that maybe would be learn by some occidental governments who neglect arts and music from the education plans, the same way the Chinese government must learn about human rights but that's another topic...).

In Europe and North America there were thousands and thousands of piano aficionados during the XIX century and the first half of the XX century and that didn't mean a competence for the Liszts, Busonis, Paderewskis et al. It was even beneficial for the professional pianists and the piano and printing industry: that meant more pupils, a well educated, cultured and appreciative audience; many pianos built, many scores sold...

When Suzuki violin method started in Japan years ago, many people would think that Japan would "produce" thousands of Oistrakhs and Menuhins but the truth is that this never happened.

Like they said in Ratatouille, "Anyone can cook but not everyone can become a great artist" (I would add "not everyone wants to become a great artist".

Just two cents...

[stevensk]

If its fame you tempts for, why not become a pop pianist? Write pieces like Ludovico Einaudi?
You could be a star in classical piano if you where 10 years younger, have gone the "right" music schools and had a great repertouire and a blending technic.
So, my recomendations:

1) Become a pop pianist/song writer
2) Continue teaching piano
3) ...dont know

[j_menz]

Go the Liberace/Andre Re-bleagh route. 

[timothy42b]

Well, after hitting 30 years of age, I've suddenly hit a bit of a brick wall in terms of the piano. I now teach full time because it helps pay the mortgage, even though if I won lottery, I'd dump teaching in a second to become a professional pianist and practice 40 hours a week.

are you fixated on the idea that the only working pianist is a solo concert pianist?

If you could find a bass and drummer, you could work every night of the week in jazz clubs right now. 

You could work every day in music recording studios doing backing tracks.

You could own the wedding business in your town, getting the first call for every event. 

[bronnestam]

The problem is, even if I did win Lottery - what are the chances of becoming famous when you practice for hours and hours a day?

So, do you want to play the piano and make a living of it, or do you want to become famous? There are many millions of pianists in the world, even if we count China out (but why should we?) and how many of them can you mention by name? Every time there is a silly poll here about "which is the best pianist..." people mention names I don't know, and I mention names others don't know, and this does not mean that those half-known names are just half-good. It is just a big world.

It's said that right now, there's approximately 150,000,000 (yes, the correct amount of 0's) students in China right now playing piano and/or violin. Given that even if only 1 in 1,000 go on to be brilliant at piano and want to pursue the piano in competitions etc... we're going to get (in the very near future) literally thousands of Chinese pianists flooding the market. Now, I'm not racist or anything, and have nothing against the Chinese - but given that soon there will be a flood of Chinese Pianists, what is seriously going to happen to those around the rest of the world who wish to pursue Professional playing???

Well, to begin with, be happy that you don't live in China then ... most of those pianists - actually I think the right figure of Chinese piano students is about 50 million - will never be heard of outside China. I bet most of them are not even interested in an international career. Perhaps not a career at all, most of them are probably playing just because they like it. There are many people training marathon as well over the world, and not everyone of them dream of winning the Olympics.

If you want to work as a pianist, then do.

[diomedes]

Being in a similar situation, my perspective is different, but i might have had a similar perspective at one point.

To some degree you might be over preoccupied with China being what it is. Over that way there are many more things that we don't know than do. That's my uninformed point of view.

Why not teach and practice 40 hours a week? Given that teaching pays well, it's feasible, and given that teaching usually occupies the later part of the day, you have your best energies for the demanding part in the early part of the day.

It's more sensible to look at teaching as a possibility to promote what we fundamentally do. It's a motion in that direction. You tell me organize an event where people are involved in our discipline for the specific reasons we want, I tell you it takes a lot of time and doing a lot of things right. You tell me to organize a basketball team, I tell you sure just give me 15 minutes. But really, virtually nothing is being done to promote our situation generally in that light. Everything is being done for basketball (i have no problem with basketball, btw, some people need those activities and a sense of community, not everyone thrives on being a total loner).

I'd look at teaching as possibly trying if nothing at all, to have people develop an intuitively good attitude to piano. That's the best you can do with some of them and what's wrong with that? The rest can only do better, and again, you get payed well. So far so good. And the rest? If you're dedicated with what you do the students intuitively pick up on that. That means they'll stick with the discipline farther than average. Don't be an old toad teacher that doesn't know what a piano looks like, demonstrate and do.

I'm scheduling my first senior level gathering with my students in week or so. Prokofiev this, Chopin that, Liszt this, Scarlatti that. Sounds fun. Make it engaging, give them the recognition that they deserve in front of their peers and that will further give them purpose. And then perform something for them that's fundamentally appealing to their level. An accessible Rachmaninov Prelude or something by Liszt. They can't help but be drawn. Just don't do what mr MS does and play bach at 1/100th of the tempo. The point of that statement is think of those around you, not a cutting remark. The trouble is many people insist on externalizing their internal intuitions.

Maybe with all that practice time, schedule recitals once every couple months. And don't play the first half of the WTC and the last 3 Scriabin piano sonatas. We as pianists love that sure, but i wouldn't blame the audience if they all joined a basketball team the day after such a traumatic event to be sure. Play music that draws people in, the Pathetique, Estamps, Nocturnes. Don't make it 2 hours etcetc you get my point.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more that can be done, at least something can be done to promote the cause since I don't see anyone else doing anything. Be a musical ambassador on a small but intelligent level. Kind of like Lang Lang but like.....with an actual sense of perspective and without the most god awful faces the planet has ever seen in all of history.

[diomedes]

If its fame you tempts for, why not become a pop pianist? Write pieces like Ludovico Einaudi?
You could be a star in classical piano if you where 10 years younger, have gone the "right" music schools and had a great repertouire and a blending technic.
So, my recomendations:

1) Become a pop pianist/song writer

And yes, if fame tempts you, and recognition is what you see as a necessity to your existence, Liberace, pop song writer and basketball coach is the way to go.

[timothy42b]

And yes, if fame tempts you, and recognition is what you see as a necessity to your existence, Liberace, pop song writer and basketball coach is the way to go.

Or Kenny G, or Clint Eastwood, or anybody else who has aimed art at the masses and become rich.

But make no mistake:  that is no easier than aiming art at the critics or the classical cognoscenti.  There is just as much talent involved in figuring out what the masses want and executing it perfectly.  Otherwise any hack could get rich, and they don't.  There are millions of Liberace wannabes, but only one real article.

[diomedes]

I was too preoccupied with the other thought process to follow that one through all the way, you're right and sensible for correcting me in that sense too.

[cbreemer]

You need no longer worry. MS has explained and defined the future of pianism. Now get on that boat before all the Chinese do 

[stevensk]

You need no longer worry. MS has explained and defined the future of pianism. Now get on that boat before all the Chinese do 

-They are already seated 

[Steffen Fahl]

Just to give the shortest reasonable answer to this thread:

There is no way in the future than through presence.
....stay curious

[michael_sayers]

You need no longer worry. MS has explained and defined the future of pianism. Now get on that boat before all the Chinese do  

There isn't any need to go that far yet.

What has to be there is a reason for people to want to hear pianist A, and not pianists B, C, D, E, F, G, and through to Z.

If there isn't such a reason then interest will wane eventually even if the pianist wins some major piano competitions.

Just listening to a recording, without knowing who the pianist is, people need to be able to know that it isn't just "any" conservatory pianist who works hard, plays by the rules, maybe places in some competitions and gets a degree.

There is personal choice of tempo, voicing of chords, voicing of double note passages, articulation of phrasing and especially the entrance of certain phrases as saying something . . . and not just playing beat to beat . . .

It is possible to do this successfully vs. 99.999% of the pianists because most of them are too wrapped up in the details of the score, and figuring out pragmatically how to win a competition or get into and be successful at the school that is right for them, to really think about the music.

And 30 is a good age.

20 year olds don't know what very many things in life really are about, they are just getting started as adults . . . so when the music is about those things on an emotional basis, they can't yet take it there - though they think if every "mf" is played as an "mf", et c., that they have done it, this is not enough, it is just the minimum to be able to technically play the music.  How the chord is voiced at that "mf" . . . and why . . . and how soon or late afterwards the pedal descends . . . and how fast it descends for the quantity and rate of wanted "bloom" in the sound . . . or maybe the sound needs to be more austere . . . they don't think about these things because these things are not notated into the score.

You all may think I am crazy, but I have sympathy for perfect_pitch's discontent and dissatisfaction, and I understand why we know who Rudolf Serkin, Gould, Maria Tipo, Horowitz, Cliburn, and many others are, and why we don't know anything about the other 99.999% of pianists.  It isn't because of how fast they could play their scales and arpeggios compared to the other 99.999% or because they know what "mf" is and the others do not.

30 years of age is a peak time in one's life and is too young to throw in the towel on one's dreams.

[8_octaves]

[...]
I seriously think that the time to be a pianist was in the past, and now I find myself simply accepting that I'm usually teaching students to play piano as a hobby, and doubt that very many (or almost any) will need me to prepare them to go on to University to do piano. Yes, there are exceptions like Valentina Lisitsa who managed to make her career through YouTube, but that's probably a rare exception.

Is it just me, or am I a pessimist (or just ill-informed???) What are your thoughts?    

Hi perfect_pitch.

I think pessimism ( a whiff of it sounds through your words ) isn't too necessecary, especially in your case. Think about that you TEACH. You help students and transfer your knowledge to them.

And in my opinion, whether the future of pianism will be like this

 

or like that

depends strongly on the teachers, and on the knowledge they have, and the experiences they made, all of which they transfer to their students.

But a teacher himself has, I think subjectively, to adapt himself to our times. To inform himself further. To be "up to date". To look out, or think / develop in his brain new ways, perhaps. And not only relying on approaches from 1755 or so. ( 1755 only being a fictional example for "old approaches".   )

The future of pianism, I think, stands and falls with the teachers and additionally, of course, with reasonable, open-minded students and other people, who become, somewhen, perhaps teachers themselves.

To transfer knowledge, and to increase it. To improve methods and approaches. To develop own views. To be both versatile, but also steadfast.

And to evaluate, what can be dismissed, from perhaps common, but unreasonable ways, would strongly contribute to improving, in my opinion.

Whereas to NARROW the approaches, to only 1 or 2 ways of thinking, e.g. in stating: "In any case you must curve your fingers and then hammer from the air onto the keys" ( pls. note that this is only an example, and hyperbolism, but sometimes I think it really occurs... )  will make up a future of pianism, which looks like the FIRST picture...

...whereas, I think, much more recommendable would be the SECOND future-pic.  

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[michael_sayers]

Whereas to NARROW the approaches, to only 1 or 2 ways of thinking, e.g. in stating: "In any case you must curve your fingers and then hammer from the air onto the keys" ( pls. note that this is only an example, and hyperbolism, but sometimes I think it really occurs... )  will make up a future of pianism, which looks like the FIRST picture...

...whereas, I think, much more recommendable would be the SECOND future-pic.  

Cordially, 8_octaves!

Hi 8_octaves,

It is a good thing that Liszt and Horowitz were not required to not to play with flat (and fleet) fingers . . .


Mvh,
Michael

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The chances of real fame are, obviously, minimal. However, if someone's going to become famous, I'd suggest loads and loads of practicing isn't the key. Yes, a certain level of competence is required, but I'd say more important is: a. a gimmick, something which makes you (fairly) unique b. get an agent c. media exposure, the more the better. This isn't for everybody - not everyone has the sort of personality happy to go on all and every TV and radio show.

[perfect_pitch]

What has to be there is a reason for people to want to hear pianist A, and not pianists B, C, D, E, F, G, and through to Z.

If there isn't such a reason then interest will wane eventually even if the pianist wins some major piano competitions.

But generally, the pianists we do listen to are the ones that won piano competitions... Argerich, Richter, Rubenstein, Pollini. These are the people who set the bar so high, we strive in our lives to get close (or even remotely close).

it is just the minimum to be able to technically play the music.  How the chord is voiced at that "mf" . . . and why . . . and how soon or late afterwards the pedal descends . . . and how fast it descends for the quantity and rate of wanted "bloom" in the sound . . . or maybe the sound needs to be more austere . . .

Okay, wait a minute. There's a clear difference between adding pedal and allowing the player to choose between the vast depth or tiniest reverberation in the strings; and playing a piece of music fff when it's supposed to be ppp. Voicing again is something that is expected in any piano student... it doesn't need to be on the page - proper voicing is essential. That's part of technique - not interpretation - one is expected to voice clearly when playing... one can't choose to not voice - that's just wrong.

...they don't think about these things because these things are not notated into the score.

Yes, but there's a difference between interpreting what's not written on the score; and changing what IS on the score.

30 years of age is a peak time in one's life and is too young to throw in the towel on one's dreams.

I'll admit, I'm not really giving up on music, but I feel that trying to be another 'Classical Pianist' is just a little bit too monotonous - compared to what (I still predict to be) a flood of Chinese pianists entering the market more and more over the next couple/few years.

I want to focus on my piano arrangements possibly. I've had success with a couple of them, and although I haven't really been published yet - I feel that it's better to bring new repertoire for people to play, rather than to play (for example) Chopin's Prelude No. 15 in D flat major like about 1,000,000 other people before me.

Maybe I can find far more joy actually bringing pieces of music and arranging them for the piano, after all - most students I teach, prefer to learn pieces like 'Raiders March' and 'Hedwigs theme'. I'm happy to do that for them if it keeps them engaged and enjoying the piano.

[michael_sayers]

But generally, the pianists we do listen to are the ones that won piano competitions... Argerich, Richter, Rubenstein, Pollini. These are the people who set the bar so high, we strive in our lives to get close (or even remotely close).

Okay, wait a minute. There's a clear difference between adding pedal and allowing the player to choose between the vast depth or tiniest reverberation in the strings; and playing a piece of music fff when it's supposed to be ppp. Voicing again is something that is expected in any piano student... it doesn't need to be on the page - proper voicing is essential. That's part of technique - not interpretation - one is expected to voice clearly when playing... one can't choose to not voice - that's just wrong.

Yes, but there's a difference between interpreting what's not written on the score; and changing what IS on the score.

I'll admit, I'm not really giving up on music, but I feel that trying to be another 'Classical Pianist' is just a little bit too monotonous - compared to what (I still predict to be) a flood of Chinese pianists entering the market more and more over the next couple/few years.

I want to focus on my piano arrangements possibly. I've had success with a couple of them, and although I haven't really been published yet - I feel that it's better to bring new repertoire for people to play, rather than to play (for example) Chopin's Prelude No. 15 in D flat major like about 1,000,000 other people before me.

Maybe I can find far more joy actually bringing pieces of music and arranging them for the piano, after all - most students I teach, prefer to learn pieces like 'Raiders March' and 'Hedwigs theme'. I'm happy to do that for them if it keeps them engaged and enjoying the piano.

Hi perfect_pitch,

I'm not posting here to defend or say anything about how I play the piano - I am posting here because I want you to succeed in achieving your dreams and goals.  I'm not suggesting anything radical, just that when (for instance) you play a particular phrase in Chopin it needs to be such that people say, "wow, that was really beautiful, I want to hear this pianist again", and then when another phrase enters in a particular way, people say, "I didn't know there was so much emotional depth to this composition," et c.  If you play like that, then you can build up an audience from nothing, and without need of the piano competitions.  Why let a panel of persons decide if you deserve a career or not?  This is for you and the public to decide . . . who cares what a handful of persons think? . . . and note the legions of piano competition winners over the decades who are not real artists like Pollini, and whose names we hardly know.

I think it is possible for you to succeed, you just need the guts to get out there and do it if you think you can hold such sway over an audience.

New repertoire as you suggest, and maybe also new types of programmes, are a good idea . . . some composers' music is lacking in recent decades in adequate interpreters and advocates.

About Chinese pianists and pianists from other foreign countries, your edge is that you do not have to be flown in from thousands of miles away.  Wherever you live, you are already there and available to perform!

You are 30 years old and know much that isn't known to younger persons.  I think you can do it if you can deeply move audiences with your playing and make them want to hear you repeatedly.


Mvh,
Michael

[perfect_pitch]

Wherever you live, you are already there and available to perform!

Pffft... I live in Australia, where culture is beaten to death by sports fanatics... but thanks for the kind words, which do truly genuine and you've taken a very mature response to my thread, so I will of course do the same to your threads, and cease to spam them again.

and note the legions of piano competition winners over the decades who are not real artists like Pollini,

That however, is a little below the belt. Pollini has been declared by other pianists as being brilliant. His care and finesse playing Stravinsky's Petrushka is still hailed as one of the best, along with his Chopin Etudes. I for one am still blown away by his performance of the Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 in d minor, at the age of 70 - which was just as youthful and exuberant as he did in his 40's.

[michael_sayers]

Pffft... I live in Australia, where culture is beaten to death by sports fanatics... but thanks for the kind words, which do truly genuine and you've taken a very mature response to my thread, so I will of course do the same to your threads, and cease to spam them again.

That however, is a little below the belt. Pollini has been declared by other pianists as being brilliant. His care and finesse playing Stravinsky's Petrushka is still hailed as one of the best, along with his Chopin Etudes. I for one am still blown away by his performance of the Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 in d minor, at the age of 70 - which was just as youthful and exuberant as he did in his 40's.

Hi perfect_pitch,

My words are genuine.  I know what it is like to live with dreams, and of the gap between "here" and "there" . . . and I live with a buried dream of the heart (that I can't describe publicly) that causes much pain, yet owing to the ecstasy of the dream it is a very sweet pain . . . so you do have my full personal support, 100%.

Maybe you want to play in Stockholm?

p.s. - I thought I had identified Pollini as a great artist.


Mvh,
Michael

[stoat_king]

I'm sorry to hear you feel like that perfect_pitch.
But then again, don't we all feel like that from time to time?
I know I do, and often for reasons that somewhere between opaque and unknowable.

I note that you dont say whether you are happy with your current position re teaching / playing / music in general and that you confine your OP to your thoughts about the future.

Whats all that stuff all over the floor? Oh - its the ashes of my dreams lol

Maybe a break of some sort would help? It usually gives me some perspective.

Stop listening to the voices and join us by the pool!

[perfect_pitch]

Sorry... I may have misinterpreted that as:

and note the legions of piano competition winners over the decades who are not real artists, like Pollini and whose names we hardly know.

I may have slightly mis-read the punctuation... My fault.

[michael_sayers]

Hi perfect_pitch,

I think I've probably said some things to you and not in the best way and I apologize for this.  We can make it like all of this never happened.  You have recitals now to give, if you want to do that . . . and I think you do . . . and I can help here in Stockholm when or if you feel ready, and if you want to or end up taking it that far.

You can count on this.

I don't think you'll be happy if you don't do these things, so it is time to reposition, somehow, for lots of piano practice!


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Hi perfect_pitch,

Here is a little gem by Oskar Lindberg which you may like.  He is underappreciated outside of Sweden, and though some of his piano music seems to possibly have issues, I will be doing a little mining later this year through the scores here to see what is there.

I think a section of his piano music would do well on a varied programme, as said though I am yet to go through the out of print scores in a library here and see what all is there.

About performing in Stockholm, I am serious and this is for when or if you feel ready.  It may seem impractical due to such things as air fare cost, yet I can see to it that such matters are taken care of for you.

You won't be the first, or the last, pianist I will have "brought" to Stockholm in this way.

If you want to pursue any of this, or discuss any of this further, please send me an email which of course - along with your email address and as well your identity if it is discernible - will be kept in confidence.


Mvh,
Michael

[perfect_pitch]

About performing in Stockholm, I am serious and this is for when or if you feel ready.  It may seem impractical due to such things as air fare cost, yet I can see to it that such matters are taken care of for you.

You won't be the first, or the last, pianist I will have "brought" to Stockholm in this way.

If you want to pursue any of this, or discuss any of this further, please send me an email which of course - along with your email address and as well your identity if it is discernible - will be kept in confidence.

Mmmm... no - won't be happening. I'll admit it seems a bit bizarre when someone says he can arrange for airfares to be paid for, and asking for details... especially over a public forum - that seems to send up a red flag.

[michael_sayers]

Mmmm... no - won't be happening. I'll admit it seems a bit bizarre when someone says he can arrange for airfares to be paid for, and asking for details... especially over a public forum - that seems to send up a red flag.

Hi perfect_pitch,

I didn't ask for any details - and knowing who one is communicating with is hardly knowing details about the person.  To properly negotiate something like this it can not be done by myself or a venue involving a pianist who has to be unidentified.  I don't think the venues here would do that.  Even when the paranoid and psychologically shell-shocked Ervin Nyiregyhazi performed in the 1940s as "Pianist X", the venues knew who it was who was touching their pianos.  Anywhere you perform, the venue needs to know who is playing, and it would not be wise to attempt to deceive them if this is what you are thinking of doing.

Why do you try to make me regret my sincere desire to be of assistance?

Maybe we shouldn't communicate anymore until you can take a bit more of a positive attitude toward persons who want to help you.

By the way, I did try first to send you a private message, and yet your settings at Piano Street do not allow private messages to be received.


Mvh,
Michael

[perfect_pitch]

Maybe we shouldn't communicate anymore until you can take a bit more of a positive attitude toward persons who want to help you.

Personally I think it's a tad odd offering assistance to a random stranger on the internet. If you're that offended by it, then you need to be a little less touchy.

I didn't ask for any details

Yes, you did.

please send me an email which of course - along with your email address and as well your identity...

Why do you try to make me regret my sincere desire to be of assistance?

Because it seems odd that some random person on the internet is offering assistance, when most of the time, all he seems to post is threads about youtube links on the internet. Granted some of what you have said seems to have intelligence behind it; any random person can go on YouTube and find links to piece of music - there's playlists full of them.

You've never even heard me play, so how can you validate that I'd be worth having over in Stockholm, and that it would be even worth the time to try and promote me over there???

We don't even know each other. You and I are simply random, anonymous users on a piano forum.

[michael_sayers]

Personally I think it's a tad odd offering assistance to a random stranger on the internet. If you're that offended by it, then you need to be a little less touchy.

Yes, you did.

Because it seems odd that some random person on the internet is offering assistance, when most of the time, all he seems to post is threads about youtube links on the internet. Granted some of what you have said seems to have intelligence behind it; any random person can go on YouTube and find links to piece of music - there's playlists full of them.

You've never even heard me play, so how can you validate that I'd be worth having over in Stockholm, and that it would be even worth the time to try and promote me over there???

We don't even know each other. You and I are simply random, anonymous users on a piano forum.

Hi perfect_pitch,

Due to being alarmed by the paranoia I perceive in your posts, I have sent a message to Nils Johan which requests that he ask you to leave me alone at this website.

I am asking you right now to please leave me alone at Piano Street.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation with this.


Mvh,
Michael

[timothy42b]

Oh come on - handle your disagreements like adults, don't ask parents to intercede.

Seriously, with computing technology where it is, you can do most of what a pianist does without spending the time developing skills. 

I haven't done so yet, but in the near future I'll play a church service by manipulating midi in real time.  It'll take some prep work, and some luck the power doesn't go out, but if all goes well nobody will know I'm not "really" playing. 

[michael_sayers]

Oh come on - handle your disagreements like adults, don't ask parents to intercede.

Hi timothy42b,

I am deeply alarmed by some things which I have read in perfect_pitch's posts.

It will be either "parents" or police who resolve this if perfect_pitch will not leave me alone.

I am not messing around.


Mvh,
Michael

[outin]

I am deeply alarmed by some things which I have read in perfect_pitch's posts.

I see nothing there for you to be alarmed by? Unless he has sent you something provately, I'd say you are overreacting...

Besides it's a public forum and you really cannot dictate who answers your posts or write in "your" threads. As long as they are not violating the forum rules, you either accept it or leave.

[michael_sayers]

I see nothing there for you to be alarmed by? Unless he has sent you something provately, I'd say you are overreacting...

Besides it's a public forum and you really cannot dictate who answers your posts or write in "your" threads. As long as they are not violating the forum rules, you either accept it or leave.

Hi outin,

I am not over reacting at all.  I've been around a while and have seen what persons who one may be inclined to suspect of paranoia, and as such who think (incorrectly) that a person is up to particular agendas or designs, are capable of doing when an "I'll get you before you get me" mentality takes hold - and in my opinion one can already see that mentality here in the offensive, highly querulous ,and attacking nature of perfect_pitch's posts.

The is a private forum open only to participation by members, and Nils Johan can have effects on what is posted here, just as the moderators do at Piano World though I think they often lock threads and ban members when such actions are not justified.

This last post by perfect_pitch was seven days after the post previous to it.  That is a whole week's time.  I thought this had run its course, yet instead there is an issue that may need assistance to be adequately addressed.


Mvh,
Michael

[ronde_des_sylphes]

p_p. some practical suggestions:

There must, I assume, be an Australian Musical Yearbook which will list useful things like addresses of music societies, critics, press contacts, agents. If you can, get hold of it - it will be useful in the long run and really you only have to buy it once.

If you're up for the potential expense, write to every music society under the sun with sample concert programmes, offering your services. Some will pay you a modest appearance fee, or travel and accommodation expenses if they are keen to have you perform. You won't get many acceptances, but don't be disheartened. You can't get a measure of fame without exposure, and this is one way to generate exposure. If your playing connects with people, word of mouth can help.

If possible, it would be useful to put together a demo cd (even just 20 or 30 mins). Sending this, or youtube clips, may assist you in trying to get recitals. Nowadays it's perfectly possible to do half-decent cut and paste editing through free tools like Audacity. It doesn't give you all the tricks a professional studio can, but it's serviceable.

A step up from that, if you're prepared to throw significant money at the issue, organise an attractive collection of pieces and make a CD professionally. I would strongly recommend that you have significant performance experience (see second point) with any material you put on it. Public performance, and analysing it afterwards, focusses the mind on interpretation and awareness of faults in a manner that no amount of sitting at home practicing diligently ever can. Be aware that there is now an increasing trend of companies who are prepared to release already-made recordings brought to them, rather than the traditional model where they sit you down in their studio. This gives you much more flexibility as to what you can put on the CD. I would also say, from direct personal experience, that it is infinitely easier to get a CD reviewed (or even played on the radio!) when a record company is sending it to critics, rather than you sending it as a private individual. Again, press exposure is vital to making people even peripherally aware of you. Ultimately, you will be able to recoup some of the costs by selling copies of the CD at concerts - the easiest time to sell a copy is in the immediate aftermath of people hearing you perform.

Good luck, because classical music is probably one of the hardest fields in which to get yourself known!

[perfect_pitch]

I just thought I would take this opportunity, first and foremost to say thank you to Ronde_des_sylphes for his very kind comments. It is good advice, and has given me a lot of thought - thank you very much.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onto the other matter at hand...

Due to being alarmed by the paranoia I perceive in your posts, I have sent a message to Nils Johan which requests that he ask you to leave me alone at this website.

Okay... I'm going to be blunt here. Over the last 2 months, you've (mostly) spammed this forum with some of the most inane, dumb posts that have almost no meaning, or even sparked interest in other users... e.g.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58204.msg626463#msg626463

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58247.msg626746#msg626746

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58203.msg626462#msg626462

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58206.msg626466#msg626466
(I presume Liszt didn't whisper sweet nothings into your ear, regarding his reasoning behind them???)

Or you have simply posted a plethora of youtube videos, that basically anyone could find on youtube in a matter of seconds.

Due to being alarmed by the paranoia I perceive in your posts, I have sent a message to Nils Johan which requests that he ask you to leave me alone at this website.

You're like a kid, running to his mother and crying... seriously. I think over the years, although I may have had a couple of spats with other users which eventually settled, I think it's safe to say that I have contributed a lot to this forum. Granted, maybe not as much as others (such as Thalbergmad, Bob or J_Menz) to name a few, but I have offered my help, assistance, views and other info over the years.

You have tried to stifle your way into a forum and pretend to be everyones friend, as if you're 'one of the lads', but frankly your posts have been almost spam-like, and even stuck your nose into threads in which you were never part of in the first place...

I am missing Hinty.

Where is he??

to which you responded to a thread that was around long before you were even here:

Hi Thal,

Hopefully he is busy composing!

And almost died completely 2 years ago that did NOT need a reply from you; being someone who doesn't know him at all.

Why isn't the "Last Post Wins!!!" thread, or whatever it is called - why isn't that spam?

This is clearly an inside joke between many of the users here, that started again, long before you arrived. Given that I know a lot of the members who post in it, I know the reasoning behind why it isn't spam... clearly you don't.

Why don't you go over to those websites and do a survey to see how many members there think I am a troll, as this - presumably - is your accusation against me here but you are afraid to use the t-word?

I think my reasonings above, clearly put you in the 'TROLL' category. Something some of the other users also perceived given one man's signature, which I heartily laughed at:

Sayers States Subjects, Spins Several Circumlocutory Sentences Suggesting Sagacity, Stops Short of Substance, Shrewdly Selects Silence

I so love alliteration. Anyway, I digress...

It isn't my fault that this is (in my experience) one of the least active music forums on the internet.

We believe in quality, over quantity...

By the way, you [hardy_practice] have made almost twice as many posts to Piano Street as I have, just in case you are not aware

Again... Quality, over quantity.

It doesn't seem to address the questions I've raised about why I am being attacked for contributing recordings, repertoire suggestions, and even humour in the Anything but Piano forum, and at Piano Street.

Is this always the way you all treat recent and quite active members?

Again... the recordings were basically shot down for having poor tempo and dynamic choices (irregardless of whether you believe them to be a decent interpretation), the recordings can easily be found on Youtube (not really a rare source of media - considering basically EVERYONE on the planet knows how to use it), and most of your humour has yet to receive any responses or thanks.

I am just curious, because there don't seem to be any active members here but me, and maybe this thread here that we are posting in is a great example of the reason why they are not here

Easy... there's being active... and being pro-active. By any measure - a troll is active, but doesn't contribute any real substance.

I see nothing there for you to be alarmed by? Unless he has sent you something provately, I'd say you are overreacting...

I have sent no Private messages to Michael_Sayers, and do not intend to.

This last post by perfect_pitch was seven days after the post previous to it.  That is a whole week's time.  

Yes... I had started to write something a week ago and got interrupted by an event, so I shut my computer down and assumed I would remember about the post later that day, which I obviously didn't... I simply happened to stumble back onto, realising I hadn't replied... which brings me to this (which I am so happy you posted previously...)

Any time someone posts something publicly about me or my work at this website, there is no reason why I should not be able to respond.  Fact is, I don't pay close attention to this website, but I do pay close attention to the threads I start - more or less this is true, except that the ones without my recordings as the subject of them, I eventually "forget" about.

I think this goes 2-ways. I started this thread, I get to contribute and respond. The truth of the matter, is that you have turned this forum into your pin-up board, leaving your scrap bits of paper, and coffee-stained documents over the place.

I've been around a while...

You've been around here for not even 3 months... I've been around for almost 10 years. I think most of the replies to your posts clearly paint the picture of how useful your threads have been.

The is a private forum open only to participation by members, and Nils Johan can have effects on what is posted here

I completely agree. I'd like to point that in the (almost 10 years) I've been here, I've started 68 threads. You've been here less than 3 months and posted 86 threads... many of which still haven't prompted any response or interest from the other users.

By the way...

I am departing . . .

I thought you were departing...    

[michael_sayers]

Hi perfect_pitch,

Here are some recent threads of mine which have replies:

23 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58132.0

14 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58126.0

7 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58215.0

6 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58156.0

5 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58199.0

4 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58234.0

3 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58244.0

2 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58143.0

2 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58198.0

1 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58158.0

1 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58200.0

If no one wants to reply to a thread, then no one has to reply to a thread.  I only reply to some threads, and most members are selective in the choice of threads to which they reply.  There is a saying that there aren't any dumb questions.  I happen to agree with that saying.  The fact that you label another member's threads as "dumb" suggests you are tremendously arrogant and spiteful.  And who are you to suggest a list of what music or piano related subjects other members can or can not start threads about?

The real issue at hand is why do you have all this antagonism, rage, and negativity toward me?

Maybe you can leave me alone now as has been requested?


Mvh,
Michael

[perfect_pitch]

Most of the negative comments about your threads and the numerous posts suggesting you are a troll (quite a number NOT by myself), seem to suggest you bring it upon yourself. When other people also perceive you as a troll, you should ponder that maybe your perception of yourself is a little skewed...

There may not be dumb questions (I'm not entirely in favour of that saying), but there are stupid statements, like your incessant upbringing about Liszt whispering sweet nothings into you ear without any validity, proof or substance to your claim.

Your behaviour on these forums over the last 3 months is very similar to members we have had over the many years I've been here - all of whom came, whinged and left, never to be heard of again. Seeing as you repeat that threads should go their course, and then reach their natural conclusion despite, that you take offense to every little matter, question or comment about you, and get suspiciously defensive either seems to suggest you ham the reaction up, simply to use it as an excuse to write multiple posts (in a row, I might add - a very odd habit), and again voice your melodramas against other users.

If no one wants to reply to a thread, then no one has to reply to a thread.

That's very, very true. However, when a user has a large number of threads they have started which of course gain no responses (repeatedly) and flood the thread pages with their topics - that sounds like the actions, either a spammer or troll would take. If you can't see that, then you really haven't been on the internet for long.

Maybe you can leave me alone now as has been requested?

If you can see yourself, not replying to this message and leaving my threads alone, I will accept your request to leave you alone, and will not engage you in any of your threads, and will cease from any antagonisation on my part.

Your lack of reply to this thread will stand as an agreement.

[cbreemer]

Oh just don't try to argue with MS... He feeds on that. Whereas most people have to eat, sleep, work, and play piano, he has obviously nothing else to do than spamming this forum and worming his way into every thread in the most insidious manner, subtly thwarting any attempt to point out the silliness of it. I think MS has some rare and exotic personality disorder. If people were to stop responding to him he would be gone soon enough. But some others here seem to enjoy long and pointless arguments just as much.

[michael_sayers]

Oh just don't try to argue with MS... He feeds on that. Whereas most people have to eat, sleep, work, and play piano, he has obviously nothing else to do than spamming this forum and worming his way into every thread in the most insidious manner, subtly thwarting any attempt to point out the silliness of it. I think MS has some rare and exotic personality disorder. If people were to stop responding to him he would be gone soon enough. But some others here seem to enjoy long and pointless arguments just as much.

Hi cbreemer,

I love life and have tremendous enthusiasm about many things, from Liszt, to the Sibelius Monument, to things which seemingly are little to do with music - such as philosophy, theology, science, economics, finance, literature, ballet, painting, sculpture, architecture and history - and if I want to do something, I do it and as immediately as possible.  This includes internet posts.  Life is short: Men my age have strokes, die unexpectedly, and otherwise become incapacitated more often than one may suppose.  Deliberate delay on desired action is not with purpose, and such calculation involves many assumptions.

As for me posting here, I happen to be a composer, and I enter music into Finale.  One of the computers on this desk happens to have an internet connection.  And after two years with no composing, I have been composing furiously having been reactivated in that way during March of this year due to a grievous and highly disturbing personal trauma.  You probably have never entered music notation from 5:30am to 3am the next morning, and you don't know how one during that time will benefit from breaks and contrast.

About sleep and eating, I am with little or no appetite for food and eat only once per day, and I sleep about five to six hours a night with the occasional [or too occasional ] nap.  And, no, I don't have a normal 40 hour a week job - that isn't what I do presently for my economic support, though I do have normal employment at times including a few years in the I.T. field when most weeks I worked more than 60 hours.  One week I logged 107 hours and I still have the pay stub that included that week with the other week as 93 hours.  Since you think I am not a hard worker, and that I am just some sort of a bon vivant who lounges around on a divan with a laptop - and since you have insinuated this publicly and taken me to task on it - I have given a little information here.  While I am a believer in carpe diem, I also believe in hard work and that not only a balance, but also a synthesis between the two, is attainable.

You shouldn't make highly negative presumptions about the lives and the character of persons whom you do not know and as you have done here in this thread.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Oh just don't try to argue with MS... He feeds on that.

Hi cbreemer,

I don't like to argue, and the fact is that I have more than 2000 posts at Piano World and counting - and I have been posting there for almost three years - and never have I had any issues there like the ones I've encountered here in the past few months.  Far from feeding on the negativity and hostility of you and others at Piano Street, I really wish that you all would stop being this way.  Out of all the persons here I am most disappointed in personally, it is you, cbreemer.  I am very disappointed in your behaviour at this website and I do not know why you don't view these words of yours as being beneath yourself.

And I suspect there is a history of you all driving away new or recent members.

I still remember the rude and tactless treatment of someone who had posted a recording to the Audition Room right around the time I posted my first recording there.    I don't think that member ever came back, and I suspect that you all pat yourselves on the back for reducing activity here and repelling contributors.  I keep thinking that maybe I should use that thread as a starting point to dig deep for some other Piano Street threads that will speak for themselves about who all it is here who comes to this website in order to ridicule, demean, berate and argue vs. other members, or not.

It isn't me!


Mvh,
Michael

[perfect_pitch]

Your lack of reply to this thread will stand as an agreement.

Well... that lasted a total of what... 2 BLOODY HOURS!!!

In relation to this:

I love life and have tremendous enthusiasm about many things, from Liszt, to the Sibelius Monument blah, blah, blah...

No one asked for your biography.

I don't like to argue, and the fact is that I have more than 2000 posts at Piano World and counting

Then don't try and turn Piano Street into a clone of Piano World.

I really wish that you all would stop being this way.  

Funny, it really only started about 3 months ago... I'm puzzled about what could have initiated it...    

And I suspect there is a history of you all driving away new or recent members.

No... just the spammers and trolls.

It isn't me!

Given that a lot of your recordings received flak and huge criticism for your poor interpretations, and obstinate, illegitimate claims of being directly influenced by one of the greatest pianists (who is dead - the use of his name to justify something like your claims, I find abhorrent), your continued bombardment of the thread to post threads that have very little substance other than to voice your claim that they should be heard - something we can do by ourselves, thank you...

And a large number of people (other than myself cbreemer, outin) and many others who have referenced your threads as been akin to spamming... I regret to say that they all have one thing in common...



YOU!



If you haven't received any disciplinary actions from Piano World - then stick to piano world, but over the last 3 months, you've received a lot of negativity. Given that you are the common factor, it is insulting to think that we are the problem when this forum ran very well before you came along.

I don't think I've referenced this in a while, so here goes:

                                               Michael Sayers
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                                       \ /

[michael_sayers]

Hi perfect_pitch,

Let me be sure I understand you correctly.  You say I am a troll because:

1) you don't like my piano playing

2) I've started more threads than you

3) you think my threads are "dumb"

4) you disagree with my religious knowledge and experiences

and

5) there may be a handful of other persons who think I am a troll because of 1) through 4)

Is that it, or did I leave out something?

And when are you going to leave me alone as I requested?

As you have claimed to live in Australia, for a little perspective and self-insight you may want to consider if your relentless and offensive conduct toward me at Piano Street is criminal:

https://www.findlaw.com.au/articles/4259/internet-trolls-can-be-prosecuted-under-australian.aspx


Mvh,
Michael

[timothy42b]

So.

Michael continues to address p-p but insist it is wrong for p-p to respond. 

<grabs popcorn>

Gonna be a long thread.  "you stop first"  "no you stop first" "I'll stop right after you stop" 

I'm having trouble keeping Tapper running, but software solutions do have the potential to affect pianism long term.  Why learn to trill, if F3 will do it for you? 

[cbreemer]

Oh yeah... this is going to be like the "Last post wins", and then some. Not sure about p-p but obviously MS is going to go on, and on and on, as long as someone is talking to (or about) him.
Our hope is on Nils Johan to end the misery. Alternatively MS could summon the authorities, or
his mom, to protect him from all the bad-ass people on this forum.

[michael_sayers]

Hi cbreemer,

This from the Piano Street rules:

Take the "Be Polite" rule very seriously! While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be banned without warning. As a general rule of thumb do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you are typing up a response you feel is clever and spiteful, rethink your post.

I am sharing this with you in case you are not aware of it and also are not aware of the therein stated possible consequence for you in response to your treatment of me at Piano Street.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

So.

Michael continues to address p-p but insist it is wrong for p-p to respond. 

<grabs popcorn>

Gonna be a long thread.  "you stop first"  "no you stop first" "I'll stop right after you stop" 

I'm having trouble keeping Tapper running, but software solutions do have the potential to affect pianism long term.  Why learn to trill, if F3 will do it for you? 

Hi timothy42b,

You are not going to need another bowl of popcorn.  I've had enough and am prepared now to act, and within the law, to bring the mistreatment of me here at Piano Street to a close.  I think I've given sufficiently fair warning to the offenders.


Mvh,
Michael

[cbreemer]

Oh dear... mistreatment, consequences, act within the law.... This is getting better all the time 

[perfect_pitch]

Oh yeah... this is going to be like the "Last post wins", and then some. Not sure about p-p but obviously MS is going to go on

Michael continues to address p-p but insist it is wrong for p-p to respond.  

Oh, don't worry - I can stand up for myself on the internet. I don't need the authorities...

Gonna be a long thread.  "you stop first"  "no you stop first" "I'll stop right after you stop"  

No... I tried that - I made a very clear statement, that I would take the first step to not addressing Michael_Sayers and fully made it clear that I would be the first not to antagonise him and would stop communication with him...

I will accept your request to leave you alone, and will not engage you in any of your threads, and will cease from any antagonisation on my part.

I took the first step - he violated it.

1) you don't like my piano playing

I said your interpretation was poor... anyone who has an open mind should listen to how it can be bettered, especially when you play almost the exact opposite of what was the composers original score and directions. When you claimed that 'Liszt inspired you', you basically trolled Liszt - by using his name to brutally attack anyone who had opposing arguments to your interpretations (not Liszts interpretaions).

2) I've started more threads than you

You've started more threads than truly should have been created - which is shared by other users who have posted about your incessant need to start new threads for every single video. This is not solely my opinion - this is shared by others.

3) you think my threads are "dumb"

Dumb??? No. I never said that. I think the idea of starting a thread for music that's under appreciated is quite nice (we actually had a thread about under appreciated composers)... Starting about 40 of them is just stupid, when they could easily be lumped into 2 or 3 at most.

4) you disagree with my religious knowledge and experiences

I didn't even know you were religious. I haven't said one word about your deity. Did you just assume that I must be biased against your religion??? That sounds like you're trying to conjure up some 'flame-bait' for me to snack on... Not that I will nibble at that.

5) there may be a handful of other persons who think I am a troll because of 1) through 4)

May??? MAY??? There are definitely people who have suggested it, in probably nicer terms than I have... but I'm not the only one.

And when are you going to leave me alone as I requested?

I said... and I repeat the quote:

I will accept your request to leave you alone, and will not engage you in any of your threads, and will cease from any antagonisation on my part.

I wanted to let the thread die, and you continued to reply. You seem to be incapable of seeing yourself for who you are. A great deal of users have implied and suggested that you are trolling this site, not me. Let me make that perfectly clear:

Also, Michael please put all those recommendations in one thread lol. I think its better than making 12 separate threads.

I think that we all, are very happy with whoever that wants to contribute to the forum. Dont' refrain yourself from posting, but the thing is, that maybe you shoudnt' invade the forum with such an amount of similar post.

It is a bit spammy.  I thought the rep board was for discussion about pieces.  These posts look like links.  

You really need to stop this! Please make one thread titled: Great and undervalued piano solo repertoire according to MS and then add your new posts on the subject to that one thread. What you are doing borders on spamming and it's only a matter of time before someone takes action...

methinks thou art trolling, good sir.  

What I had done, is basically no different from what some of the other users have done... and I even made a clear post saying I would refrain and cease communicating with you, to ensure that I wouldn't prompt any retaliation from you, and yet you continued to persist. You may need to re-check the definition of a troll.

One last quote... a good one, from just last week. Thought it was relevant to the topic.

When even I can't find the threads I am looking for, and I am the one who posted them, maybe there really is an issue here

[timothy42b]

4) you disagree with my religious knowledge and experiences

Whoa!  I missed that one.

I don't recall any discussion of religion but this has great potential.

Perhaps Susan has been reincarnated. 

However it is off topic for this thread.