brexit?!!?

[ahinton]

Hopefully the Scots will once again get a vote for independence... and then tell the English to go f@#$ themselves and re-join the EU.

The former might happen; it's as yet uncertain. Whilst I do not favour Scottish independence in principle, the treatment of Scotland by Westmonster has been such that I well understand the current appetite for a second independence referendum and, if one is indeed held, it might well result in a vote for independence followed by Scotland's formal application to join EU in its own right. In the meantime, Northern Ireland, which also voted for UK to remain within EU, might well give consideration to the possiblity of its doing so by applying to rejoin the republic.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Another step closer. Sailed through the commons and the Scots effectively told to get stuffed.
The shoe is on the other foot now and no silly ammendements or court cases is going to stop it.
The Lords wouldn't dare try to thwart the process.
The shackles are loosening.

Not necessarily. There is no certainty in the progress of negotiations, the amounts of time that they will require or their outcome. There is also no certainty as yet as to what legal obstacles might be put in the way. The situation is particularly unstable at present because UK has an incompetent and divided government whose leader is inarticulate at best and incoherent at worst and, partly because of a degree of traditional Labour support for the Tories and even deeper divisions and disturbances within the Labour Party, UK now no longer has an effective opposition, which is a dangerous state of affairs in what purports still to be a democratic country; indeed, I suspect that Labour might be in its death throes and, if so and if it finally folds altogether, Parliament would have almost certainly to be prorogued indefinitely until such time as a new opposition party could be formed that could gain at least 250 HoC seats - and that's not going to happen in any hurry. What price Brexit (or indeed any other legislative process) then?

Moreover, there are already noises from such opposition as remains that UK could in any case apply to rejoin EU if it could garner the support for doing so; the more the results of any negotiations come to be perceived as contrary to UK's interests, the more likely the arising of such a groundswell of opinion will become.

In trhe meantime, for those like me who wish to retain their EU citizenship but who unlike me are not Scots and would therefore not be entitled to apply for dual Scottish / UK citizenship should Scotland become independent of UK, there is https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/petition-for-brits-to-receive-associate-eu-citizenship-1-6432703 .

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

[deleted]

[thalbergmad]

[deleted]

Your most informative post ever.
More like this please.
Your claim that the government is divided makes no sense.
They all voted "aye" yesterday. The traitors have been removed.

[ahinton]

Your most informative post ever.
More like this please.

Sorry; can't oblige there. The deletion was occasioned by a technical error that gave rise to a duplication which I then removed.

Your claim that the government is divided makes no sense.
They all voted "aye" yesterday. The traitors have been removed.

There were no "traitors" in the first place but my statement about the government being divided relates not merely to Brexit but to matters generally. The Labour Party is even more so, hence my speculation that it might be nearing its dénouement.

Anyway, if Labour does finally collapse, Parliament will risk being neutered until such time as a new opposition party that can participate in a General Election is well under way. In the meantime, there remain the various uncertainties that I mentioned, in addition to the ways around retaining EU citizenship, possible legal challenges (which can never be guaranteed to go away permanently), the risk of the break-up of UK and a host of other factors.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The Silly Court case days are at an end I predict.

[gep]

Your claim that the government is divided makes no sense.
They all voted "aye" yesterday. The traitors have been removed.

Now why does this sound like it could be a quote from the likes of Stalin, Hussain of Iraq or Kim Yung Un?

[ahinton]

The Silly Court case days are at an end I predict.

I am unaware that they have even begun, but then court cases that might seem "silly" to you are not necessarily so to others; all that I would add here is that, as there is no predicting what legal cases might arise or when, it would be wiser to try to maintain an open mind about that.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Well, it's through the Lords and all amendments correctly rejected.
Her Majesty signs it off and it's all systems go.

[ahinton]

Well, it's through the Lords and all amendments correctly rejected.
Her Majesty signs it off and it's all systems go.

A pity about the woeful lack of such systems, then. Another pity that the declared interests of the Welsh Assembly, Scottish government and Gibraltar have so far been ignored by HoC.

There is in any case many a slip twixt cup and lip (as the cliché has it), by no means all of which might take the form of court cases and, in any event, seeing through the mountains of work that will require to be completed for Brexit fully to establish itself for the time being will take years.

In the interim, those who wish to do so may continue to use their EU passports, apply (when possible) for associate EU citizenship and avoid (wherever possible) the vagaries of new rules, regulations and the rest.

As I have already stated, I for one have no intention of being hidebound by any Brexit legislation and will continue as before as far as I am able; for example, I can get around any new customs impositions by transmitting scores, literature and the like electronically and, should the "progress" of Brexit "negotiations" devalue UK's currency, that might help my business although I do of course accept that it would adversely affect other businesses less able to circumvent such strictures.

I am an European citizen first, Scot second and Brit last and will remain that way, Brexit or no Brexit.

Moreover, in addition to the possibilities of Scotland and Wales seceding from UK and NI rejoining the Republic, there is always the chance that if, as seems likely, UK as a whole will end up worse off as a consequence of Brexit, pressure might mount for it to decide to reapply to join EU and, embarrassing as the background to such a necessity would obviously be, I cannot somehow envisage much opposition on EU's part to such an approach from UK; after all, none of the other 27 EU member states advocated UK leaving EU.

We live in hope!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, it's through the Lords and all amendments correctly rejected.
Her Majesty signs it off and it's all systems go.

Some while ago I responded to your expressed desire not only for UK to leave EU but also for EU ultimately to disintegrate and cease to be by asking with what you would advocate replacing EU but, so far, you have yet to get around to answering that question; I nevertheless remain interested in your response.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

[deleted]

[thalbergmad]

[deleted]

You need to do this more often.
I am not going to waste any more time debating this with you.
We will be leaving the EU on 31st Jan which is what people voted for twice.
If you don't like it, the next ferry leaves in 20 minutes.
Bye bye

[ahinton]

You need to do this more often.
I am not going to waste any more time debating this with you.
We will be leaving the EU on 31st Jan which is what people voted for twice.
If you don't like it, the next ferry leaves in 20 minutes.
Bye bye

The deletion was down to a technical problem, as previously.

You don't have to debate anything if you don't want to.

I'm unsure who "we" might denote or include but it's not me, for reasons that you will deduce from what I have written previously.

I need no ferries, for I will not be told by anyone where to go, nor will I go anywhere other than the country in which I currently reside unless I choose to do so. Many other Remain supporters feel the same. I don't "like it" (if you mean Brexit) but there are many ways to deal with and et around that and I shall continue to address these in the best way that I am able; again, I will by no means be alone in that.

I remain an European citizen and shall continue to do so until Europe (not just EU) disintegrates forever, which will never happen unless it is taken over lock, stock and smoking barrel by another superpower.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

However you try to dress it up, we leave on 31st January.
That includes you, me and Scotland.
That is what the majority voted for on two occasions.
No more Gina Miller, no more silly court cases.
THE END

[ahinton]

However you try to dress it up, we leave on 31st January.

Sorry, but that statement is inevitably predicated on what might be meant in anyone's mind by "leave"; if it meant that UK would sever all its connections with EU on that date, that would indeed be clear but, as we all know, that is so far from being the case because there is a pile of negotiations to undertake and none of us can know their outcome until they have been completed, if ever they are completed. Until they are, therefore, no one will know what such "leaving" - should it pertain - actually means for anyone in UK or EU.

That includes you, me and Scotland.

But what does? As I wrote above, we do not and cannot yet know. We certainly cannot pronounce with authority on what anything might mean for Scotland - that will be subject to Scotland's future actions, whatever they might be - and you are in no position to seek to include me in this when I have already clarified my determination not to comply with any strictures that "Brexit" might seek to impose upon me.

That is what the majority voted for on two occasions.

Two? There was June 2016; what was the other one?

No more Gina Miller

Why? Is she dead? How can you or anyone else be certain what she might or might not do at any time in the future?

no more silly court cases.

As stated previously, I am unaware of any such but, again, no one can be certain what litigation might be instigated in the future.

THE END

When? And, again, how can you be sure if there will ever be any "end" to this?

It might be wise to remember that Johnson and quite a few other politicians now aiming to promote the alleged virtues of Brexit have vacillated widely - if not wildly - in terms of what they're known to have advocated at any given time.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Typical winging Remainer. You lost.

[ahinton]

Typical winging Remainer. You lost.

"Typical"? I doubt it!

"Winging"? Quoi?

I have neither lost nor won. Nor has anyone else yet.

Most EU rules and regulations will remain in place at least until the end of this year, possibly for much longer and if, by then, it will have become clear that too many people in UK will be worse off as a consequence of Brexit, they will likely let us all know in no uncertain terms, since no one voted either way in the referendum for that.

A Brexited UK will need reliable trade deals with other nations as well as EU; the Huawei and Middle East issues are likely to make securing one with US deeply problematic and Ausralia has already turned one down...

Another interesting factor - albeit a somewhat unlikely one - is the question of what will happen should the Labour Party finally fold. That will not only have long-standing and widespread consequences for the trade union movement which will have then for the first time int its history to go it alone, but also Parliament will almost certainly have to be prorogued indefinitely because of lack of representation (arising from the departure of more than 200 ex-Labour MPs) which will continue until a new party has formed and gained sufficient support to enable it to field candidates in another GE and gain success therein. Were that to happen, Brexit would be just one of its many legislative casualties.

Moreover, what degree of success might it be deemed reasonable to anticipate from "negotiations" conducted on UK's behalf by a government that will already have spent no less than 1,318 days since the referendum just to get as far as this coming Friday - i.e. nowhere at all?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Thal, you hve indentified yourself as one of the minority breed of Brexiteers who see UK's departure from EU as hopefully heralding EU's eventual demise and, although I asked as a matter of genuine interest with what you would hope to see it replaced were that to happen, you have yet to answer that question.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The EU doesn't need to be replaced.
It is a completely unnecessary level of beauocracy that effectively is the largest Ponzi scheme in history.

[ahinton]

The EU doesn't need to be replaced.
It is a completely unnecessary level of beauocracy that effectively is the largest Ponzi scheme in history.

Whilst I agree with your first statement and have a little sympathy for the first part of your second (as EU could certainly do with reform), you did once write that you hope that it will disintegrate so, I ask again, what would you expect to happen if it did?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

We would all go back to being individualand proud Countries again, in charge of our own destiny.
The EU is a bit like the Borg.

[ahinton]

We would all go back to being individualand proud Countries again, in charge of our own destiny.
The EU is a bit like the Borg.

That's rather what I expected you to write. Do you think that this would work, especially given the rise of nationalism in certain European countries already even while EU exists - and given also that a number of EU member states were once Soviet Union satellites or part thereof?

Would you also countenance the possibility that the absence of EU might risk encouraging the break-up of at least some of those "individual and proud countries" - UK into three or four, Spain into three, &c.? - after all, Czechoslovakia split into two and Yugoslavia into several quite a few years ago - and would you regard some or all of such national fragmentation as a good thing or a bad thing?

As we increasingly see today, it's USA, China, Russia (to a point) and the rest; in such a climate, the future viability of an increasing multiplicity of little nation states surely looks questionable?

Churchill may not have been the success in peacetime that he was during WWII but I suspect that he would have been horrified by such an idea.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Not long to go now.
Should have been a national holiday.

[ahinton]

Not long to go now.

There is a very long time to go before the outcome of all things Brexit can be known; there might be longer still to go once they are...

Should have been a national holiday.

Well, it isn't. A day of national mourning might have been more appropriate, but it's not officially that either.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Mourn if you wish. I will be celebrating.
Hope all the EU flags are torn down.

[ahinton]

Mourn if you wish. I will be celebrating.
Hope all the EU flags are torn down.

I will not be mourning. I will be ignoring it. I merely submit that a day of mourning would be more apposite than a public holiday (and thankfully Big Ben will not be Bonging for Boris - odd, though, that Boris the (ex-)Bong King was already notable for his bonking activities)...

EU flags torn down can in any case always be put up again or replaced.

I noted, incidentally, that Mr Farage, when interviewed yesterday, spoke of his hopes that UK's departure will spark off the eventual demise of EU. God forbid.

EU, with all its many faults (to which I'd be the first to admit), has at least done its fair share to ensure that wars within Europe have been kept to a minimum since the inception of its predecessor shortly after WWII; the risk that Europe disintegrates into 70, 80 or more nations each pursuing its own interests and to hell with those of all the others is simply too fearsome to contemplate.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

[ahinton]

Most apposite, I'd say; there are already noises along the lines of "they'll be back!" and if, as anticipated, the "negotiations" lead to an outcome widely thought to be to UK's disadvantage, I suspet that there will be very considerable pressure for UK's reapplication.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Ever the optimist. Your stance is boringly predictable.

Anyway, HAPPY BREXIT DAY..

If you dont like it, get stuffed.

The tide leaves in 10 minutes.

[ahinton]

Ever the optimist. Your stance is boringly predictable.

Anyway, HAPPY BREXIT DAY..

If you dont like it, get stuffed.

The tide leaves in 10 minutes.

I neither like nor dislike it; it's such a non-event as to be unworthy of anyone's liking or disliking. We'll see what happens. It won't be oever until it's over - and it's unlikely ever to be over as long as there are thorns in its side, of which I will remain one as long as I'm alive.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Congratulations Hinty, you have now left the EU.
If you wish to be a thorn, the only person that it will make bitter and unhappy is you.
I will be moving forward with optimism and renewed vigour.

[ahinton]

Congratulations Hinty, you have now left the EU.
If you wish to be a thorn, the only person that it will make bitter and unhappy is you.
I will be moving forward with optimism and renewed vigour.

I haven't left the EU. Nor has anyone else until 31 December 2020 or (far more probably) much later and maybe not even then. What we face now is not a divorce but a trial separation of sorts. Does anyone seriously believe that EU won't welcome UK back with open arms despite its petulant conduct?

I am not bitter. I am not whingeing(sp.). I am not moaning. In fact, I'm doing the same as you - "moving forward with optimism and renewed vigour" - just in the opposite direction!

One of the few certainties in all of this is that no one voted Leave or Remain in order to be worse off; when that fact sinks in to enough minds sufficiently, we will have a clearer idea of where we might be headed.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I was prepared to be worse off so the next generation wouldnt be.
It looks like that wont happen.
Nice to be free this morning.

[ahinton]

I was prepared to be worse off so the next generation wouldnt be.
It looks like that wont happen.
Nice to be free this morning.

Well, that's very generous spirited of you but I suspect that the problems that this will bring about (IF it comes off) will last a good deal longer than a single generation.

I feel neither freer nor less oppressed this morning than I did last Saturday morning.

A divorce is a divorce once it reaches the decree absolute stage; a trial separation is quite different.

How do you feel about the fact that there will be almost no changes this year, including the UK contribution to the EU budget? And what about the immense contribution that UK has made to EU during its membership? I fear that, should UK leave EU, the latter will be a worse setup than it is now.

You write of pride in your country. Nothing wrong with that as long as the country deserves it. There's a world of difference, however, between patriotism and nationalism; the patriot loves his/her contry and welcomes foreigners to it with open arms whereas the nationalist attitude is along the lines of "my country's better than yours and we don't want you here" - in other words, almost opposite states.

It's difficult to remain proud of a country so riven with divisiveness, acrimony, confusion, uncertainty and general worry, all of which have been gravely exacerbated in the years since Mr Cameron promised to ask the electorate for its advice as to UK's continued EU membership.

Mr Johnson now declares that he intends to unite the country; not only is he singularly unsuited to achieving success in so monumental a task, he is hardly alone in that; indeed, I cannot imagine who could pull off such a feat.

Still, much remains to be done and no certainty as to the outcomes of any part of it; this is why I cannot help but regard today at 00.00 EST as a damp squib masquerading as a firework, a non-event in the greater scheme of things and the beginning of a trial separation rather than a divorce decree absolute, occurring as it did more than 1,300 days after the referendum and with a bare minimum of 335 more (probably many more) to go.

We'll just have to see what comes of it all.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I see that freedom has not shortened your post length.

[ahinton]

I see that freedom has not shortened your post length.

What freedom? I feel no more or less free than I did last weekend.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I do. Already the EU flags are coming down. That is freedom.

[ahinton]

I do. Already the EU flags are coming down. That is freedom.

They are not all coming down, especially in Scotland, but that's hardly the point; since when did the presence of any flag - EU, UK or any other - compromise or otherwise impact upon "freedom" - yours, mine or anyone else's? You appear to have a bizarre and inexplicable notion of what constitutes and/or grants freedom!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You are in denial as usual.
Our MEP's have left their parliament and we have no representation. Anyone who renews their passport will not have their shitty flag on it.
We have LEFT.

[ahinton]

You are in denial as usual.
Our MEP's have left their parliament and we have no representation. Anyone who renews their passport will not have their shitty flag on it.
We have LEFT.

My passport is noit due for renewal for almost ten years.

I know that UK's MEP's are no longer present and that we have no representation; how do you feel about paying the same to EU without having any say in what it does or omits to do?

I have nothing to deny.

I will either apply for associate EU citisenship when that becomes a possibility or wait until Scotland goes independent and ten send in my already completed application for dual citizenship; I therefore have a failsafe should Scotland not leave UK.

In all other respects, it will be business as usual for me.

Best,

Alistair.

[thalbergmad]

The EU will shortly have no say in what we do, then the bribe money stops.
Boris will not permit another Indyref and he is likely to be PM for 10 years. You thought he would be gone in weeks.
Enjoy your long wait. In the meantime, we are both out of the EU.

[ahinton]

The EU will shortly have no say in what we do, then the bribe money stops.
Boris will not permit another Indyref and he is likely to be PM for 10 years. You thought he would be gone in weeks.
Enjoy your long wait. In the meantime, we are both out of the EU.

The EU will have a say in what UK does at least until end 2020; how long thereafter it continues to do so is anyone's guess.

I agree that the GE result was unexpected and the main reason for this has been the support that so many Labour voters have given to BoJo & Co.; quite how long that will last remains very much to be seen, especially as Labour's very future looks uncertain at best.

As I stated (and explained), I am not out of EU and do not intend to become so; there are various ways around the attempted withdrawal of EU citizenship from UK citizens against their will and I shall explore them to the full.

I'm not even a great fan of EU as currently constituted and operated; as I've also said before, there are too many corrupt and otherwise suspect practices therein and some of these have been encouraged and even taught by UK which certainly has its own (un)fair share of them. The alternative scenario in which each country or fragmented parts of a countries tries to go it alone, each following its own interests at the expense of all others, is, however, a most scary prospect. Churchill would, as I've already observed, have been utterly horrified.

Ultimately, there is China and US and, behind them Russia and India, all vastly larger than EU or even Europe as a whole. EU has no presence in eastern Europe at all and will need somehow to develop one, admittedly against massive economic odds, if it and Europe itself is to stand any chance of survival. I envisage many borders being taken down in time.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I do. Already the EU flags are coming down. That is freedom.

Speaking of flags, https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/netherlands-town-replaces-union-jack-with-scottish-flag-1-5084441?fbclid=IwAR06lA_tPSuDPSzcV0B-Rp-rbRELMRwCQtFXR6kiU7AKYdDDMSSotc7qZVM .

Sensible people, the Dutch. Their record label Piano Classics will be bringing out no less than ten CDs of Sorabji's music this year and have hosted quite a performances of it over the years.

Oh, sorry; I shouldn't mention Sorabji in a thread about Brexit (especially as he would probably have supported it) but, in my defence (should I require any), the town concerned, Leeuwarden, is where Piano Classics is based.

The Scots are very sensible, too, not least for having hosted the premières of at least six of Sorabji's works.

Best,

Alistair

[dogperson]

Speaking of flags, https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/netherlands-town-replaces-union-jack-with-scottish-flag-1-5084441?fbclid=IwAR06lA_tPSuDPSzcV0B-Rp-rbRELMRwCQtFXR6kiU7AKYdDDMSSotc7qZVM .

Sensible people, the Dutch. Their record label Piano Classics will be bringing out no less than ten CDs of Sorabji's music this year and have hosted quite a performances of it over the years.

Oh, sorry; I shouldn't mention Sorabji in a thread about Brexit (especially as he would probably have supported it) but, in my defence (should I require any), the town concerned, Leeuwarden, is where Piano Classics is based.

The Scots are very sensible, too, not least for having hosted the premières of at least six of Sorabji's works.

Best,

Alistair

This is one of the flimsiest justifications for hijacking a thread that I have ever read!  Don’t you already have a thread going that this announcement could be added to? 

[ahinton]

This is one of the flimsiest justifications for hijacking a thread that I have ever read!  Don’t you already have a thread going that this announcement could be added to?

Of course there is such a thread and of course it has been accordingly added to - but my reference here is a mere joke, as I would have thought obvious! I'm surprised that you can't see that.

National flags have been mentioned; the Dutch newspaper article relates to this and to the removal of the UK one from the set of 28.

The town where the UK flag's been replaced with the Scottish one is the one where the record company that's issuing all these Sorabji CDs happens to be based.

Scotland and the Netherlands have each played their rôles in the promotion of Sorabji's music.

Whilst there will almost certainly be many other reasons why all but two people whom I know (Thal being one) do not favour Brexit, those of them who are in the music profession are understandably concerned about the impacts of
(a) the possible restrictions on freedom of movement and
(b) UK government's refusal (so far) to adopt the EU Copyright Directive or to pass some broadly equivalent legislation in UK itself.
I'm looking into the latter of these with the UK Performing Right Society as I do not yet know what those impacts might be, so I will refrain from pronouncing on it at this point.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

He even managed to sneak a Sorabji remark in here.
Is there nowhere safe?
Thal

[ahinton]

He even managed to sneak a Sorabji remark in here.
Is there nowhere safe?
Thal

That's not for me to answer, although I did make it clear that the inclusion of that reference here was intended as a joke, no more, no less and for reasons that ought to be obvious. Anyway, I'm surprised that you overlook my speculation that he would likely have favoured Brexit...

Anyway, in further response to your comments about flags and for the record, you'll find none here, either of the EU, Union or Saltire variety...

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

He even managed to sneak a Sorabji remark in here.
Is there nowhere safe?
Thal

You cannot evade the Sorabjivirus.

The Scots are very sensible, too, not least for having hosted the premières of at least six of Sorabji's works.

Best,

Alistair

An appropriate soundtrack to the average Glaswegian drinking session, except not lengthy enough.

 

[ahinton]

You cannot evade the Sorabjivirus.

Whether or not that might be the case, its effects are unlikely to cause the kinds of respiratory problems that can arise from the Corona one - at least I've never heard of such occurrences...

An appropriate soundtrack to the average Glaswegian drinking session, except not lengthy enough.

Well, be that as it may, one man's (or woman's) nectar (amber, aural or both) is another man's (or woman's) - er - fill in the blanks; moreover, much would have to depend upon the playing and drinking speeds...

Best,

Alistair