Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[ada]

dear prometheus,

agree with thalbergmad.     

Yeah but I think Thal was being, like, ironic.

So a prostitute is a sinner who "steals" something from a man.  And the man who's exploiting her isn't?

This is the same reasoning that the Taliban used to justify stoning to death a woman who has been raped.

I think you are confusing disadvantage and lack of opportunity with sinning.

With respect, it's this kind of half baked pious morality that makes your brand of christianity unpalatable to me.

[prometheus]

But the bible was written by people who were more extreme than the Taliban are. If Pianistimo didn't have the same primitive ideas she would not be a 'true' believer.

Just as Ayaan Hirsi Ali claims that every 'pure' version of Islam is a danger to western society.

Actually, these views are somewhat justifiable in a Taliban society because there a non-virgin daughter is a burder. Males are more useful than females. With a son you have a male. With a daughter you can get one when she marries. But if she is no longer a virgin she has lost here usefulness.

[pianistimo]

explain to me your idea of a woman's purpose here on earth. 

i think the home is a protected place.  a place where a husband and sons and daughters are around your table like 'olive plants.'  if someone were to try to bother you - you'd at least have a form of protection.

now, as i understand it, prostitutes are blatantly telling people by the way they live that they don't need a man.  they don't need protection.  and basically don't care if they live or die.  it's a depressed state of mind.  why else would a woman chose it?

enlighten me on the positives of prostitution.

[johnny-boy]

Prostitutes certainly don't have much of a family life. Anyone that places such a low value on their body has very little self-esteem.

I especially feel sorry for the children wrapped in this disheartening home life.

Prostitutes live a sordid lifestyle. About the best thing I can say in defense of their lifestyle is that they are victims of low self-worth.

It’s just a sad segment of society. Most won't find any degree of happiness.

John

[leahcim]

It’s just a sad segment of society. Most won't find any degree of happiness.

Yes, but it's one that they share with the folk from all walks of life who visit them.

Do the Queen Gertrude math [i.e work out what %age of a questioned population are probably "protesting too much" about something they regularly use]

That said, most don't have a great deal of love and affection for their ISP, bank, supermarket or whatever else they spend their money on, so perhaps it's partly that.

[ada]

explain to me your idea of a woman's purpose here on earth. 

A woman's purpose on earth, like a man's, is to reproduce and pass on their DNA.

Apart from that as far as I am concerned it is okay to have sex whenever you want with whomever you want as long as both parties are consenting, there is no exploitation, no risk of unwanted pregnancy and no risk of infection. And you're not hurting anyone else in the process.

But this has nothing to do with the causes of prostitution.

why else would a woman chose it?

I don't know that I would call it a matter of "choice". The reasons a woman becomes a prostitute, in probably the majority of cases include

1. Lack of alternatives
2. Lack of education
3. Poverty
4. Lack of social support structures
5. A drug habit to support
6. Children to support
7. A history of childhood sexual abuse
8. mental illness
9. The economy of supply and demand. If men didn't pay for the services of prostitutes they would hardly exist, would they?

enlighten me on the positives of prostitution.

I'm not suggesting there are any.

I'm simply questioning why christian morality points the finger of blame at the women who are prostitutes while not even questioning the behaviour of the men who pay for their services or even bothering to consider that women who become prostitutes do it for reasons other than fun or inherent sinfulness.

[pianistimo]

good arguable points - although, i don't necessarily think that they have 'no alternatives.'  with prayer there ALWAYS is alternatives.  they are divinely granted and always come at the right time.  look at the widow who ran out of money and went to the prophet (for modern day women - it could be a minister).  he told her to fill empty jars with the oil God provided and sell them.  now, in todays roster of miracles - it is not an unexpected miracle to have a job suddenly appear (possibly after putting in a thousand applications).  even a woman without skills can clean houses.  i think it is a matter of choosing the highest paid profession and compromising morals.  money is the issue - not choices.

you can pray to God for a higher paying job to appear - but often you have to prove yourself on a job.  can you be timely, consistent, etc.  if some women do not have these qualities - they should take some job training classes to become more professional. 

i agree that just having a family (which not everyone wants - and i have no problem with that) is not always the highest goal of some women.  some are extremely talented in whatever their job is.  but, when you are very very smart and you compromise your own body - you are combining a risk as with gambling and losing everything.  your health, your children, your mind.  as with some playboy models, you also have to fear security, and that pictures will not be screened - but just put onto the internet and youcan't do anything to get them off.  i think a woman should guard her body and not allow men so much control over her.  a husband is there to protect.  pimps are there to exploit.

sorry to go on.  i just disagree.  there's really no point to arguing perspectives on the 'plague of christianity.'  as i see it - where i live - the determining factors in society seem to be public schools and universities (and hollywood) which don't seem to draw a line for students and regularly hand out condoms.  if this were a really good thing - then students wouldn't get pregnant.  but even with condoms, many girls get pregnant and then have to face raising a child alone.  that's pretty hard at a young age.  if i were in charge of the universities - the first day - this is what i'd say.  if anyone of the opposite sex comes within 10 feet of a girls dorm - they have to do cleaning duty of all the bathrooms of their own dorm.  i definately believe in girls dorms and guys dorms.  not the usual every other floor idea.  sure, students love it when they first come on campus.  but how secure is that idea?  i the monitors do help - but what if your roommate has a boyfriend and you can't even have study time in your own room.  i think many things taht the universities do are hindering education.  dress code is another.  but, of course, if you go to a christian university to find a mate - you're not going to usually find someone who's been with 4-5 guys over the course of 4 years.  it's just gross, imo.  and getting worse.  sometimes, i hear that there are twosomes and threesomes  - so you multiply the number of venereal diseases by quantities.  what girl is going to get respect after that? 

it's all about respect.  i think that women who hold fast to virginity are a segment of society that is looked down on more than women who are prostitutes.  they do it to get attention and to be liked/loved.  if our society was christian - people would know about HOW to love someone.  as it is - many don't even really know what love is.  i think a degree of sacrifice is involved.  not just sharing good times.  that's my opinion.

[timothy42b]

don't know if bible studies have been known to enter the topic of sex - but i think it  might free some people from the idea that the church is against it.  married sex is sanctified and encouraged as far as i know.     

Hardly encouraged, pianistimo, at least by Paul.  He clearly stated men should be celibate, but if they were weak and unable to avoid sinning, they should choose the lesser of two evils, marriage.

As far as I can tell, he never conceived of marriage as anything but a legal sexual release, which is a shame. 

[pianowelsh]

Amen - Im happy for Christianity to plague my mind in a good way . In fact the bible teaches Christians to let there mind's be conformed to the mind of Christ.
Oh and by the way i am aware I am completely disregarding the original intent of your deliberately offensive post, before you all bring it to my attention.

[thalbergmad]

explain to me your idea of a woman's purpose here on earth. 

Cooking, ironing, cleaning, shopping, sewing, darning, scrubbing and other menail duties.

Oh, and sex.

Thal

[pianistimo]

jokes aside, there is a safety in the home that you don't even get in the workplace.  some women trying to mind their own business and work ethically can be bothered if the company they work for doesn't have ethical policies.  one thing i'm really glad about is that part of job screening for some companies includes a criminal check and what people in the community (references) say about the person before hiring.  if more companies did this - women would not be so often in places of harm and abuse.  and, some companies actually guard the parking lots. 

at least at home - whether doing menial work or something that isn't - it's still helpful.  if women got paid for all the menial duties - they would be rich.  i don't think any man would complain if he truly had a 'help-mate.'  that's genesis premesis - and i don't argue it anymore.  i would say when i was first married - it was a sort of 50-50 outlook.  really, for both people - i think they SHOULd share duties when they can or feel like it - so both are really more at 80-20 - and going above what is expected into 'what would make the other person happiest.'  to find the counter cleaned off once in a while is a real boon to my existence.  occasioanlly the house will get picked up and the floor vaccumed or car cleaned out.  this is nice - because i think that originally  the intention was that everyone work together.  a sort of family business. 

[pianowelsh]

Not quite sure how this got onto the family and the role of women in the home BUT I understand that the chief end of man(mankind - not just males) is to glorify God. How that works out in the lives of everyday christians is as diverse as the kind of lives christians live everyday! We do give God glory by agreeing and living in accordance with his Holy word though. I mean God's word is a fundamental in the life of a believer and it should influence the mind of the Christian as it is true and we are told to meditate on such things.

[prometheus]

Does that mean that you think that people should restricted the roles of females as long as those people believe that is to the glory of god?

[pianistimo]

we are already restricted by being born female.  men do not have the responsiblity of childbirth.  it is just something that we accept, generally.  except in modern society one is given more 'choices.'  according to the bible it isn't a choice - but an expected responsiblity - to bear children and keep a home.  it says this in timothy, i think.  'i would that women ...'do thus and such - bear children, stay away from reproach.  and, if their husbands die- they are even admonished to marry again if they are young.  that is so that the church would not be faced with a prostitute in the church - of which is supposed to be a representation of the bride of Christ.

usually people don't read into a woman's role what used to be there because there is more freedom to not have children and not have the responsiblities of diapers and all the crap that goes with it.  but, i believe that in giving up a part of our selves for something bigger, for sufferring sometimes - there is great joy!  even childbirth itself is sufferring - but you forget the small bits of pain for the overriding joy of a lifetime.  even though i might complain about my children's behavior occasionally - i have never regretted being a mother.  i would feel very dissatisfied at the end of my life if i never had a family. 

but, i do not feel that it will be a terrible crime for a woman to choose in this day and age to not be married or have children/ or be married and not have children.  it is a huge risk, nowdays.  the world isn't as it used to be.  and, there is so much pain and sufferring to life.  when each of my children was born - i did think about it and feel responsible deeply for their burden of life - as well as happiness.  i realized that someday they would die- and it really hurt.  but, God has it all figured out - so it's His 'thing.'  He made it perfect int he beginning.  i believe that is so.  so it will be perfect in the end.

 

[lostinidlewonder]

Whoever disrespects woman or man disrespects a part of themselves and more importantly disrepects God and his ultimate creation.

A woman thinks with emotion a man with his head. Many men who adore women and respect them have great understanding of their feminine emotional side. They realise that there is a difference in thinking between the sexes and a reason for it. The thinking difference can scientifically be attributed to our hormones.

I use to breed dogs and birds and the females where worth much more than the males. Because they can produce the offspring and it is them who you rely on to make you money. The males are a dime a dozen, they will never produce offspring for you unless you find another female. Of course the female also will not produce without a male but you can always borrow a male from someone else, mate the two and then take the female back home with you.

So if we want to look at females and males in comparison in money worth in the human race, we would have to say females are worth more. It has been scientifically proven that if all the men in this world were wiped out and all sperm was destroyed we could still get females pregnant, so in essense men are (in a laboratory) not needed to fertilise a female egg.

So what now do we have to say about he worth of a man and woman in materialistic, breeding terms. We see it is an extremely stupid way to look at ourselves. Each and every one of us are the same, gender doesn't change anything. Only when we start trying to judge which one is superior do we start having to use material devices to support our claims. Strip ourselves of judgement with material gain and we have great difficulty determining the difference between the sexes. Take away child birth, physical strength difference, intelligence etc. How do you judge now which is better? YOu cannot. BUt when you start making judgement you start proclaiming what you yourself think is materialisitically important in this world. No permanent happiness can be found in material things.

Oh and there is no saying THIS SIN is greater than THAT SIN. That judgement is left to God and there is nothing for us to learn about judging which sin is greater than another. Is murder greater than a lie? It depends doesn't it? A lie by George Bush might mean the deaths of countless people.

[leahcim]

Whoever...

What a complete and utter load of tripe. Hilarious though, keep it up

[pianowelsh]

i dont believe that is directly what I said no.  I said that men and womens function, in Christianity (which is what is being discussed) is to Glorify God. Guarenteed that will involve sacrifice of both genders at certain times for the good of the other. See Christianity isnt about getting my rights and my needs met all the time. it teaches about prefering the other person in Love. Loving someone is doing what is best for them even though it might well cost you. The example we are given is Christ. We are told to love one another as christ loves the church... He died and went to the cross for the church.. which makes staying home and making the dinner look a bit petty really. It works the same way with men there are sacrifices that they will need to make in order to walk in a way which glorifies God. Im not suggesting that I think the bible teaches that women stay at home in the kitchen and men work and use women to have their needs met..I think that is the antithesis of scriptural teaching. A marraige is a chord as its often illustrated with the strands being dependant upon one another to hold together. Christ is the 3rd strand and is the agent which binds. Therefore in love for God the husband will seek the wifes best and the wife will seek the husbands best and they do so to the glofy of the one who has redeemed them, Christ.  Of course Christians can be stinky too and self centered and thats where the problems come in but Christ has obtained forgiveness for us so when we do something in relationship that isnt loving, the Holys spirit within convicts us and causes us to put things right with God and with the person we have offended/upset.  Hope that has made my official position a bit clearer.  I totally disagree with 'using' people because of their gender and that works both ways.

[prometheus]

That's not what I asked. If your principle is applied to other people, who have a slightly different view, and there are many of these people. Do you support them in them if they apply your principle while it leads to less rights for females? Because there are people that think the bible teacher that the role of females ought to be limited. Christianity has always been a patriarchical religion.

[pianistimo]

if Christ is our example (and even born as a male - said that He came to do His Father's will - it meant to submit to His father's will as an example to us).  This goes also with family boundaries.  if children can disrespect parents on the basis that they are equal (which they are - no doubt - but they are at a learning stage) - then we should even consider ourselves as adults - at a learning stage with God's commands.  if we neglect even small commands - then we are ignoring what God says.  He gave a command in genesis that the woman is to be man's help-mate.  nowdays, is passe.  but, it is a 'forever' thing with God.

if we learn humility now - then forever we will be elevated to whatever positions He has for us in His kingdom.  there is no male or female gender (as the question posed to Christ about the woman who has several husbands - and which she will be bound to in heaven.  Christ replies that there is neither male nor female there - and that she will be bound to none).  there is a mystery to true love - though - and i personally believe that if we truly love the one we are with - then He will allow us to share eternity with them as 'one.'  after all, He himself said - 'and the two shall be one...' everyone says it at marriage cermonies. 

our society makes it sound like a bad deal for a woman to fulfill God's Word.  why should we be in a position of service to a man?  a help-mate?  why should children be submissive to their mother?  or father?  it is a God given directive to learn how to submit to authority.  how else do we learn to listen to God?  now, if our parents tell us to do something wrong - then we know that we should listen #1 to God - but never be disrespectful.

that is my opinion and i've seen it work very smoothly as with a business.  in another thread - i mentioned the first few years of our marriage - which i had assumed would be more 50- 50 .  but when you keep track like that - you end up getting angry at the other person sometimes.  if you change your heart - and start thinking - how can i serve and make  this person happy you suddenly STOP keeping track.  you don't even notice if a wrong has been done (unless really grevious).  you forgive small things and the person you are with also reciprocates 100%.  i've never seen it not work.  especially with a man or woman that truly loves the other person.  for instance, my husband ALWAYS asks my opinion on things and about large purchases, basically every major decision including children and finances and whatever.  he doesn't say 'this is the way it is.'  but, after considering my opinion, the children's opinions (a lot of the time) - then he states to everyone what he thinks should be done.  if there is a lot of disagreement - he usually rethinks it - but if it is something he feels very strongly about - we go with his decision.  i am willing to give up some for him and he is willing to give up some for me.  i don't feel he is a dictator or anything.  but, i respect him and allow him to have his way when he feels an issue is important.  when i do this, i feel that God looks down and blesses me for blessing him with the choices he is free to make as a man.  it's really standing beside your man and not behind or in front. 

[ada]

A woman thinks with emotion a man with his head.

A man thinks with something else, blossom.

And it aint his head. 

[lostinidlewonder]

A man thinks with something else, blossom.

And it aint his head. 

Yeah, well maybe I should have been specific, "A man think with his head(s)"

[ada]

now we is gettin somewhere 

[leahcim]

A man thinks with something else, blossom.

And it aint his head. 

Let's not be picky, the date and the username were spot on.

[pianowelsh]

Hi prometheus. What I was saying is that rather than people making us do this or that or not do this or that is that we are all accountable to God. How we live out our lives before him. I was speaking specifically of the christian when I was talking about submission to oneanother, because Christ enables this kind of agape love which prefers the other person. I think (and im not sure) that you are sugesting that people could use a pseudo agape cover to manipulate men Or women into being submissive. Agreed! its possible. The human heart is decitfully wicked above all things. People are capable of doing all kinds of deep hurtfull things and wrapping it up like they are caring for you..BUT that dosent mean that there isnt such a thing as reall agape love. When such love exists one dosent continually ask - 'is this person using me' because God enables you to love them even when they arent loving.  I think we have to be 'out' on this one that much of what is called 'Christianity' and many people who claim to be followers of Christ, but who then extort and bully and basically live sinfull lives are decieved and decievers. The bible would say that the truth is not in them. Many such people do treat women/ and lets not forget, men, badly. But they are not really representing Christ.. they are misrepresenting him because they dont know him.  If you know Christ and you have experienced the love he has for you. It is not in your nature to abuse other Christians or non christians. Ok sometimes genuine Christians do make mistakes but the Holy Spirit working within that individual will convict them to put it right with God and the person they've wronged. In accordance with scripture.

[prometheus]

What I am saying that Christianity has always been a religion that oppresses woman. And that largely still does. Even Pianistimo believes she is to serve a lesser role compared to a male because of what is in the bible.

I asked you if you think these people have the right to oppress woman based on the bible&their religion. Because this is what you seemed to suggest.

Don't tell me 'it is possible'. It has been the exclusive possibility until about a 150 years ago. And it is still the dominant one today.

Same in Islam. 'We' are all talking about the 'war against Islam' and the 'clash of civilization' one of the reasons being that they oppress woman.

As for your other 'rambling'. Well, I don't care. I asked you a question. Please answer it or don't answer it.

[pianistimo]

i never said women have a lesser role.  i don't think God thinks it is lesser.  actually, if He is the example (as a shepherd) He was willing to sacrifice His life for those He was leading.  if a man can't lead - what is a man? 

[prometheus]

Yes, you don't think it is a lesser role. But most people would. I remember everything everybody here says and I remember it correctly, most of the time.

[mike_lang]

Yes, you don't think it is a lesser role. But most people would. I remember everything everybody here says and I remember it correctly, most of the time.

What lesser role?

M

[prometheus]

It's something she said a year and a half ago, or something like that. She said that she thinks that Gods teaches males and females have their own disctinct roles. I won't say any more, just ask her what she thinks. (Hint: she already hinted at it above.)

[pianistimo]

it's opportunity knocking.  a position of service doesn't mean a lesser role.  i think men and women are indispensible for each other.  what man is really watching his kids at the park.  they come home bruised and batterred when dad takes them.  but, the thing is that children need both parents.  otherwise the boys would turn out like girls.  mother's are typically the ones that try to shelter the kids from oncoming cars and things like that.  the dad's are there to show them how to race across the street. 

what person, when entering a hospital,wants a male nurse?  now, i really had to say i appreciated the good looking male anesthsiologist i had - but really - if you are looking for realistic 24 hour care - men are not going to sit at the bedside.  women are careful caregivers and men are fairly slipshod that way.

if a woman gives a man good care - then he's going to work hard and make her life easier.  of course, depending on the number of children you have - it is likely that your day will end at 10 pm vs. 5 pm.  but, i'm not really complaining because i have piano forum time.  my husband really does spoil me.  basically anything i say, goes.  he never argues points.  but, he does usually tell me how it is on really important things to him - so i don't argue either. 

[jpianoflorida]

What I am saying that Christianity has always been a religion that oppresses woman. And that largely still does. Even Pianistimo believes she is to serve a lesser role compared to a male because of what is in the bible.

I asked you if you think these people have the right to oppress woman based on the bible&their religion. Because this is what you seemed to suggest.

Don't tell me 'it is possible'. It has been the exclusive possibility until about a 150 years ago. And it is still the dominant one today.

Same in Islam. 'We' are all talking about the 'war against Islam' and the 'clash of civilization' one of the reasons being that they oppress woman.

As for your other 'rambling'. Well, I don't care. I asked you a question. Please answer it or don't answer it.

there is a big difference between "christianity" and "religion"......    most people dont' see the difference, but a "christian" is someone who follows Jesus teaching--that person may or may not be part of a "religious group".....religions are a manmade way of making rules and setting standards for a group...just my opinion.

[prometheus]

A person is a Christian when she/he thinks Christ is the way to redemption from original sin.

That's something else from a person following, (exclusively) what you think is, the teaching of Christ.

There many people that claim you are only a Christian when you agree with them. It's called extremism.

[pianistimo]

then why did Christ bother to preach at all.  if His words mean nothing - then we can pretty much assume that His saving grace was all that was necessary.  even though we are born into sin - we also have a responsibility to be doers of the word and not hearers only.  of course, the responsibility lies with those that call themselves Christian.  so, when i write messages, i am always thinking - 'do i really do this?'  sometimes we fall very short.  but, at least in our heads our intention is to follow Christ.  He gave an example of service.  also, he NEVER demeaned women.  when the disciples were going to throw out the woman who sat at his feet and washed them with her hair (a somewhat sensual and yet meaningful expression of her love for him) - instead of spitting on her or assuming that she was doing it out of evil intentions - he immediately knew her heart and allowed her to show appreciation for him. 

to our modern day of thinking - it would be strange.  but, back then - washing a person's feet was something the servants did.  so - she was proclaiming herself a servant and that whatever she could do to make her Master comfortable, she did.  also, she annointed him with very expensive perfume.  when, He died - he was probably thinking of her as well as His Father in heaven.  perhaps she was guided by the Holy Spirit to serve him in this manner.  and, he said that he wouldn't forget her deed.  even the smallest good deed (to any person) is a matter of service and being happy to do something for someone else.

when first married - i had an illusion of 50/50.  it is not. it's 100% no matter what.  if you want to keep score all the time - it gets very old.  my husband sort of taught me this concept because he was much more communicative about asking what i liked or didn't like and basically spoiled me.  it rubs off and you want to spoil the other person. you stop thinking about one day at a time (because everyone has good days and bad days) and you think in general.  you appreciate all the good in the person and don't worry about minor infractions.  and, don't retaliate.  the temptation is for the first 10 years of a marriage is to do tit-for-tat.  but, if you want to skip the normal first ten years - just don't let things bother you so much and don't dwell 1/2 a day on how you are going to get even.  start thinking the exact opposite.  what is making the other person upset?  how to cheer them up?  how to make things better for them.  some kind of compromise?  maybe a time to talk together and just let the other person talk and you listen.

i'd say that if Christianity is anything - it is learning to take a little heat. 

[pianistimo]

another place in the bible that makes me think that God has an idea for a man to keep a woman well is the place that talks about 'adorning' a woman as God would: 

ezekiel 16:10 'i also clothed you with embroidered cloth, and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and i wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk.  and i adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands, and a necklace around your neck.  i also put a ring in your nose, earrings on your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head...your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which i bestowed on you,' declares the Lord God.

somehow, i've always found that passage a sort of inspiration of sorts.  a man who truly loves a woman isn't going to be wanting her to dump garbage all day.  he'll take care of her and treasure her.  so it isn't an issue of who's in who's place.  in fact, it's probably the same for both people.  they just like taking care of the other person.

[gilad]

A person is a Christian when she/he thinks Christ is the way to redemption from original sin.

That's something else from a person following, (exclusively) what you think is, the teaching of Christ.

There many people that claim you are only a Christian when you agree with them. It's called extremism.

Call it extremism if you will by all means, but are you that simple prometheus?
Why are you concerned with what someone tells you? You are welcome to tell them their religion is false, and they are welcome to tell you that you need to adhere to it. It's fair play. We are all able to believe what we want, we are all free to decide for ourselves.
Why are you so upset about it?
Anyway, semantically you can call a christian an extremist if you really really want too.
But, then I suppose one would have to refer to suicide bombers and members of religions that preach death as more than extemists. The word game would need to escalate. Maybe they would have to be known as exteme extremists?
Prometheus, I suppose you're an extremist too. Arent we all apparently if we hold an opinion on something. Or is it only those opinions with which you tend to disagree?


also this:

"But the bible was written by people who were more extreme than the Taliban are."

How can you fail to see the effect that, what? 2000-3000 years of world civilization and history have had on the teachings and practices of the people who follow the bible.
So the brander of extremist promotheus doesnt quite understand the passage of time and how human civilization is different since then.
Anyway, I sure hope that people were more barbaric than the taliban 2000 years ago. It would be a real shame to see the taliban go that far backwards.
And the important thing to remember is that christianity and judaism are fully aware that the bible was written in different times, and needs to be applied to times that we live in.
Acknowledge that and stop using that awefully pathetic line everytime you're having a go at christianity?

[prometheus]

You are welcome to tell them their religion is false, and they are welcome to tell you that you need to adhere to it.

If your position is that anyone who doesn't agree with your view of christianity is not a christian then you are just a bigot. Obviously all those people are christian, as long as they think Christ is the way to redemption.

It is like a muslim saying that muslim extremists that commit suicide attacks aren't muslims because they commit suicide attacks.

I didn't even confront someone with the violence of Christians. I only confronted someone with the fact that Christianity, throughout history, has always oppessed woman. But this person just waves it off by saying these people aren't Christians.

Why are you so upset about it?

About what? Oppression of woman?

Prometheus, I suppose you're an extremist too. Arent we all apparently if we hold an opinion on something.

Am I saying that everyone who doesn't like Bach isn't a musician? Or something along those lines?

Or is it only those opinions with which you tend to disagree?

This is just a stupid suggestion. Maybe you should ask yourself why you ask this question instead of trying to get me to answer it. Do you see any trace of this tendency in my posts? About any topic?

How can you fail to see the effect that, what? 2000-3000 years of world civilization and history have had on the teachings and practices of the people who follow the bible.

Has the bible been upgraded to modern standards? No, it hasn't. The OT still calls for barbaric behavior.

Also, we have not had 2000 years of civilisation. When was slavery stopped? When were woman and black people given the right to vote? When was the lowest of the lower class given proper rights? Since when are animals well treated? Since when did we stop physical punishment? Since when have the people been able to stop their leaders from waging war.

Our civilisation is brand new and very very fragile.

So the brander of extremist promotheus doesnt quite understand the passage of time and how human civilization is different since then.

I have read a lot of texts on ancient history. I won't mention them. I also know quite a bit about the more recent history, the 19th century. I know a lot about the crusades. I know less about the period after the middle ages up to the industrial age. I don't really see what you mean. And i don't see it in the bible.

Since you suggest that people today are more civilised then the people that wrote the bible, where does this civilisation come from? I am not saying that people aren't civilised and that those people that read or claim to follow the bible are as civilised as the Taliban. I am just saying that our civilisation doesn't come from the bible. On the contrary. Christians are moral and civilised in spite of the bible and their religious views. And we should be glad that they are. But this means that we have to attack the bible as a source of moral teaching.

And the important thing to remember is that christianity and judaism are fully aware that the bible was written in different times, and needs to be applied to times that we live in.
Acknowledge that and stop using that awefully pathetic line everytime you're having a go at christianity?

Then why do these people, which includes Islam as well, refuse to remove these barbaric lines from their 'holy books'?

Imagine someone writing a 'self help' book and asking the reader to do terrible things. Then, when a justification is asked the autuer explains one needs to apply the teachings of the book need to be 'applied to the time and place where the reader lives in'.

This is nuts. As long as the bible calls for the murder of homosexuals, people that do not listen to clerics, 'witches', 'fortune tellers', hitting your father, adultry and fornication, followers of other religions, non-believers, 'false prophets', all the people in one town because they live with someone that worships another god, woman that aren't virgins on their wedding night, those who 'commit' blasphemy, 'infidenls', those who work on sabbath(saturday), etc.

You can kill about anyone and the bible justifies it. How can you say that one shouldn't bring up this silly line? The bible just teaches and asks one to kill all these kinds of people.

Why follow the teachings of Taliban-like bronze age people? Why? You yourself admit their teachings shouldn't be followed, don't you?

[pianistimo]

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  prometheus, you are not arguing with christians.  you are arguing with God.  it's pointless for us to say who is a christian.  how do we know?  only God knows people's hearts.  but, He did give us the bible.  are you saying the bible is false information.  if that is your opinion - you are welcome to it - but remember, Christ came to free us from the law of sin and death.  so even for women who were prostitutes, and men who were thieves and tax collectors.  but, one important point is that when they decided to 'follow' Him - they gave up their old habits for new ones.  that means that many people showed us in previous generations HOW to be a saint.  it doesn't mean you are born one.  or even necessarily are called in your youth.  many people are called to let go of selfish thinking when they are much older and wiser and start to see that God's ways are true.  you cannot really prove them wrong.  God is God.  we are human.  what seems right to us is different that what IS right.

ps how many churches today interpret Christ's teachings in the strictness of the old covenant?  i don't know any, really.  in fact, i would say that in the presbyterian and other similar churches there has been a division over tolerance for homosexuality and women in the ministry.  there are some churches that do and some that don't.  so, in effect, there is a gospel preached to the entire world and noone is exempt from hearing it.  the tolerance allows people to learn and grow at their own rate and not a 'you must be perfect to join' church.  admittedly, there are not as many churches that promote witchcraft at the same time.  wonder why that is?  i wonder if they are worshipping another god?  just a moot point.

[jpianoflorida]

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  prometheus, you are not arguing with christians.  you are arguing with God.  it's pointless for us to say who is a christian.  how do we know?  only God knows people's hearts.  but, He did give us the bible.  are you saying the bible is false information.  if that is your opinion - you are welcome to it - but remember, Christ came to free us from the law of sin and death.  so even for women who were prostitutes, and men who were thieves and tax collectors.  but, one important point is that when they decided to 'follow' Him - they gave up their old habits for new ones.  that means that many people showed us in previous generations HOW to be a saint.  it doesn't mean you are born one.  or even necessarily are called in your youth.  many people are called to let go of selfish thinking when they are much older and wiser and start to see that God's ways are true.  you cannot really prove them wrong.  God is God.  we are human.  what seems right to us is different that what IS right.

ps how many churches today interpret Christ's teachings in the strictness of the old covenant.  i don't know any, really.

we are on the same page.....you made many very good points..thanks.

[pianistimo]

i argue best with the bible around.  i realize that giliad was very correct in showing that there is a certain 'interpretation' needed to translate the bible to modern times.  as i see it, that 'translator' is the Holy Spirit itself.  Christ said it would guide us into 'all knowledge' - and that it would help remind us of His ways (especially if we read the bible with an open mind).  there are many ways to interpret small points (such as keeping the sabbath day entirely holy) but there are more major ones that that.  perhaps the good samaritan is an example.  if the man was on the side of the road on the sabbath and everyone was passing him - which was more important?  help the man - or go to church.  it seems like an easy question - but in big cities - the poor are disregarded.  so who is more holy.  the person going to church and nodding a lot - or the person who helped someone on the way to church and possibly is late?  or arrived barely in time - but did something to prove that they believe Christ.  God always seems to allow us to have time to do what we intended to do and also help someone.

personally, i believe God is calling the 'weak' to confound the mighty at this time.  we know we're among the stupider - but hey, we have faith.  so we are able to have more wisdom given to us when we ask for it.  (remember you have to ask).  solomon was given a load of wisdom for asking.  i think of him and pray the same in very specific situations - and it always seems to work.  i think of something that i hadn't thought of before.  i really do feel the work of the Holy Spirit.

[mike_lang]

i argue best with the bible around.  i realize that giliad was very correct in showing that there is a certain 'interpretation' needed to translate the bible to modern times.  as i see it, that 'translator' is the Holy Spirit itself.

Precisely - through the teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[leahcim]

Precisely - through the teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Yeah, the pope, not the world's most infallable source any more according to, err, well according to him

You've got to hand it to Muslims, they aren't great at art - I mean that effigy looked no more like the pope than the puppets of Zig and Zag, but centuries of popes saying the most complete and utter nonsense and catholics nodding away as the nuns whacked them, and yet one small group of Muslims say "Nope buddy, you're full of crap mate" and he's "Yep, you're right, I'm sorry, don't listen to me, I was just reading from a card, someone else wrote it, it was a previous pope, it was bigger boys miss, I just wanted to talk about whether you're evil, I wasn't actually saying that you were...err, oh sod it...let's talk about my war career"

[maul]

The words of truth. A sharp blade strikes... glancing off a shield of thick, ever growing sludge-like substance which has plastered the eyes of those foiled into becoming the weakest link of humanity... limiting those who's eyes have seen through the congealed mass of incapacity... poisoning those who have opened their eyes for the first time. It is too immense. The acid has trickled down through the droplets of time... condensing... concentrating... continuing... growing into something which can only be destroyed by the blade. It strikes again...

[mike_lang]

Yeah, the pope, not the world's most infallable source any more according to, err, well according to him

Do you know what the doctrine of papal infallibility entails?

[pianowelsh]

Im sorry but it is terribly obvious Women are different from men. This is not bad it doesnt mean one is less essential than the other OR more or less important than the other. Undrer God they are both equal. So if you manage to interpret scripture as favouring one or another your interpretation is sqewed - sorry. Im sorry you found my 'ramblings' to be inconsequencial. They are however integral to my argument as if you read them carefully you will see.  I wouldnt have wasted the time writing them if they werent. If you have a chip on your shoulder about the repressed state of women in the world then nothing we can say will help you but dont blame it on Christianity because it is a totally separate issue. There - I said it!

[timothy42b]

  perhaps the good samaritan is an example.  if the man was on the side of the road on the sabbath and everyone was passing him - which was more important?  help the man - or go to church. 

This is a good example where through lack of knowledge, most people miss the real point of the parable.  It goes to show it is not enough to simply read the English translation and assume you will get the message on your own, without assistance or scholarship. 

[jpianoflorida]

Precisely - through the teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

why do you say that?   Everything pianistimo said came would be the same in any translation of the bible...has nothing to do with the Catholic church or any one denomination. 

[jpianoflorida]

This is a good example where through lack of knowledge, most people miss the real point of the parable.  It goes to show it is not enough to simply read the English translation and assume you will get the message on your own, without assistance or scholarship. 

so explain to us what you think the point is then!

[jpianoflorida]

It seems to me this post is turning more from a discussion to people bashing each others beliefs.   Why can't we all learn from each other and just respect others opinions and their way of looking at things.   If you aren't a member of a religious group then you really don't know all of what that particular group actually believes and does.  We may think we know all, but unless you are in that persons shoes you really don't.       We all have misconceptions about a lot of things.  Do we really see what George Bush does all day long before we criticized him (leT'S  not get into politics lol).   Do we see what goes on in our favorite restaurant behind the scenes? Do we know everything our teacher said to our kids today...    point is, unless where are there we really don't know, but we can guess.

[timothy42b]

so explain to us what you think the point is then!

There may be more than one point.

From the modern viewpoint, we have a couple of clergy (priest and Levite) with presumably a higher duty to aid their neighbor in need, but failing to do anything, and a stranger (Samaritan) showing them up.

This is certainly not how the parable would have been viewed in Jesus's time, nor presumably how he intended it. 

The priest and levite were Servants of God, and their obedience to their requirements outweighed any of their personal desires.  Their ritual temple service was critical to the safety and righteousness of all Jews; they had to fulfill their end of the covenant or everybody would suffer. 

The victim appeared dead.  If either touched him, they would be unclean for a period of time and unable to fulfill their temple duties.  Though they badly wanted to help, they could not for fear of failing the Lord Most High whom they served.  If it had been their own family in the ditch they would have had to walk by.  They acted correctly in every respect, through great self discipline and love of the Lord.  The Samaritan, not bound by purity laws, was able to show the compassion the priests wanted to show. 

What Jesus was probably trying to tell them in this parable was that it was time to change the rules, and slavish adherence to God's 634 commandments was no longer going to be the proper way to live.  Obviously this would take a while to sink in.  Compassion was going to become a higher value than righteous obedience of the law. 

It is now almost 2000 years later.  (well, much of the NT was written around 100 AD, about 1900 years.)  All Bible quotations now have the risk of being similarly misunderstood, or at least not fully understood.  The worst of it is the silly literalness we've fallen into lately, which discards the beauty and imagination that went into the writing. 

[prometheus]

Prometheus, you are not arguing with christians.  you are arguing with God.

Non-sensical argument.

Im sorry but it is terribly obvious Women are different from men.

Why do you say this? As a justification for unequal rights, which you will deny in the following part?

This is not bad it doesnt mean one is less essential than the other OR more or less important than the other. Under God they are both equal.

That's what Pianostimo said: the male should lead and the female should serve the male. But god calls this equality. And if you argue against it you argue against god, bla bla. Females just have to be oppressed or you are an unbeliever.


So if you manage to interpret scripture as favouring one or another your interpretation is sqewed - sorry. 

hey are however integral to my argument as if you read them carefully you will see.

Ooh yes. This is what politicians do. They are asked a critical question. But then they refuse to answer it, go on a rand to try to get their other points across. Those they do want to talk about. What politicians say is just as important as that what they choose not to talk about.

If you have a chip on your shoulder about the repressed state of women in the world then nothing we can say will help you but dont blame it on Christianity because it is a totally separate issue. There - I said it!

This is pure denail. Just buy any book on the history of feminism. I do not know how old you are but your grandmother lived in a different world. Only 60 years ago woman were as oppressed as they have been throughout history. Only the last few decades oppression of woman has stopped, but only in the western world and not even completely.

You just can't deny that Christianity has a history of female oppression and that Christianity was an inspiration for female oppression. And even today conservative Christians still use Christianity as a justification to oppress woman.
Pope John Paul II even apologised for the sins The Church committed against woman.


Still my question hasn't been answered. Seems that you think Christians are justified in oppression woman when they think this is what God asks from them.