Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[jpianoflorida]

That is also true, but the church in itself needs to take a stronger stance against these individuals, if the church would, I would imagine a lot of of this kind of stuff would die down.

are you in the US?   As far as i know there hasn't been any bombings of abortion clinics in a long long time? unless I'm mistaken? someone help me out here!

[pianowelsh]

If you scrutinised my argument. Not that I think many people actually do?!? I suggest that such people who do these things are most likely not 'Christian' because to be Christian is to be changed from darkness to light (read Romans). The Christian will be conformed to the model of Christ -- because we are not naturally like Christ. Christ is loving not bitter and vengefull. Thats why we still have breath and He hasnt come back to judge the world yet, there will be a day when it will be too late though and he will come to judge righteously.. the scary thing there is that in that day it speaks of the righteous being scarcely saved. Are you all super Righteous? Or will you put your trust in the righteousness of Christ to save you???

[jpianoflorida]

I suggest that such people who do these things are most likely not 'Christian' because to be Christian is to be changed from darkness to light (read Romans). The Christian will be conformed to the model of Christ -- because we are not naturally like Christ. Christ is loving not bitter and vengefull. Thats why we still have breath and He hasnt come back to judge the world yet, there will be a day when it will be too late though and he will come to judge righteously..

I AGREE!

[pianowelsh]

Wow quick work there!

[prometheus]

What about Palestinian christians supporting suicide attacks against Jewish children.

Also, in South America there have been christian suicide bombers.

Also, one of the first suicide attacks recorded in history as excecuted by Christians during the first crusades. They destroyed their own ship, killing 140 to kill many more enemies. Though I have to say it is not certain if this really happened. It is certain the pope promised the Templar that all who died in battle would go straight to heaven. In the same sense as mulsims are promised they will go to heaven.

Also, some people here know the stories of Samsom. I also know them. Can you tell me how he died?

[maul]

Some Christians are nice people.




For all the wrong reasons.

[timothy42b]

If you scrutinised my argument. Not that I think many people actually do?!? I suggest that such people who do these things are most likely not 'Christian' because to be Christian is to be changed from darkness to light (read Romans).

That is your opinion of what a Christian must be like.

But it is not shared by all Christians.  What makes your opinion right and theirs wrong?  Oh, I see, if they disagree with you they are not true Christians, so their opinion doesn't count.  Never mind. 

And that's the problem.  By any standard definition they ARE true Christians, including the clinic bombers and the war proponents. 

[timothy42b]

Another point. If you look at their point of view we really cant blame them a whole lot,(except of course they use violence) They view abortion as murder, what would you do if  people were murdering children? To them, a week old embryo is no difference to you and me.

So it's okay to use violence if you think your cause is just.  "really can't blame them" 

I find that scary, but fairly standard logic.  When any clinic bombing occurs, you will find churches willing to say "we don't condone that."  You will never find one willing to condemn it, which kind of sounds like condoning it to me. 

[mike_lang]

That is your opinion of what a Christian must be like.

But it is not shared by all Christians.  What makes your opinion right and theirs wrong?  Oh, I see, if they disagree with you they are not true Christians, so their opinion doesn't count.  Never mind. 

And that's the problem.  By any standard definition they ARE true Christians, including the clinic bombers and the war proponents. 

I find it hard to swallow that someone can be a true follower of Christ, and at the same time fight one intrinsic evil with another.

[wishful thinker]

Also, some people here know the stories of Samsom. I also know them. Can you tell me how he died?

Yes, he died destroying the temple of the Philistines (a sort of early pianoforum  .  But, of course, having lived some considerable time before Christ, it would be difficult to describe Samson as a Christian, don't you think? 

Palestinian suicide bombers are Muslim, not Christians, I think you'll find.

[prometheus]

Yes, but some Christian palestinians support them. There have been several clerics that supported violence against Israel. And one of them even supported the worst suicide attack.


As for the biblical story; Of course he was not a christian. But it is a story that is supposed to learn christians how to live.

[wishful thinker]

As for the biblical story; Of course he was not a christian. But it is a story that is supposed to learn christians how to live.

Nonsense

[pianistimo]

i think it's a story to remind Christians that all that we have and are belongs to God.  even our physical strength and sight.

we can be nearsighted and not even know it.  i know i am at times.  we think that what we are involved in or doing is the most important.  i think when Samson became blind - he realized that strength was only a portion of who he was - or was meant to be. God gave him a newfound ability to be 'strong in the Lord.'  and, His last act was truest of God's ability to fight for us.  we don't need to prove anything to anyone.

in revelations - it is said that the seven last plagues are directly from God Himself.  that would not be evil fighting evil.  it would be God destroying evil so that good can reign.

[pianistimo]

'we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers...against the evil of the rulers of this world...against wickedness in high places...'

this is a mental battle (which can become physical if we let temptation rule).  i believe that Christians are fighting more against being assimilated into a culture of anti-God and anti-worship of God.  where the 10 commandments are forgotten.  and, what we think becomes the rule.  lawlessness. 

I john 2:2 'no one who is born of God practices sin (purposely PRACTICES), because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.'

i take this to mean the same as pianowelsh - that we are so grateful to God for forgiving our sins that we don't purposely go out and sin again and again.  that we show God we are on His side by believing His words.

[pianistimo]

also I john 3:12 'not as cain, who was of the evil one, and slew his brother.  and for what reason did he slay him?  because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.  do not marvel, brethren, if the world hates you.  we know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.  he who does not love abides in death.  everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (without repentance).  we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.'

[prometheus]

Nonsense

Then what is the purpose of the bible?

[wishful thinker]

The Old Testement is Jewish history and totally different in tone and substance to the New Testement, which deals with life and teachings of Christ and the new Covenant.

Christians follow the teachings of Christ as the Messiah, who said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

[prometheus]

So Christians don't follow the ten commandments?

I see Christians quote the OT for all kinds of reasons every time. For example, all the anti-gay stuff is mostly OT.

[wishful thinker]

You are probably confusing Christians with wacko hillybilly protestants 

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

[wishful thinker]

BTW, Jesus never said anything about gays.  He did talk of adultery, which is in fact a sin of deceit and betrayal.

[pianistimo]

the commands which Christ expounded came from the OT.  after all, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  yet, we are all sinners.  sinning whether you are homosexual or adulterer or murderer is all the same.  it's all sinning.  if you do not believe that the ot laws of sexuality apply -(to all) - then check revelations last chapter.  adulterers and homosexuals and witchcraft are all lumped together.  i don't think it matters which sin you choose.  if you stay a sinner - you are not going to rejoice at the outcome.

[jpianoflorida]

So it's okay to use violence if you think your cause is just.  "really can't blame them" 

I find that scary, but fairly standard logic.  When any clinic bombing occurs, you will find churches willing to say "we don't condone that."  You will never find one willing to condemn it, which kind of sounds like condoning it to me. 

YES YOU WILL.......most churches I know of, in fact every church that I personally know of and there are many would condemn it!

[wishful thinker]

Please madam, do not quote Revelation.  This is a serious discussion about Christianity. 

[prometheus]

Of course not all Christians are against woman rights and against homosexuality. But many , maybe even most, are and the bible gives them an argument. Christ did say all laws from the OT apply. And of course the NT says something else in other places.

Fact is that a hero from the Christian bible commits a suicide attack.

[jpianoflorida]

what's happening here is EVERYONE is generalizing....everyone( and I'll admit sometimes me) are stating that "all christians", "true Christians", "churches do..." etc etc....bottom line: you can't generalize and put everyone in the same category!   same with schools, piano teachers, etc etc.      And everyone will have their opinion!  Unless you have visited every single church, every single school , and then unless you have gotten to know every member , student, teacher.....you can't say that you know all about the issues.   Again, I'm speaking to myself as well!    You have to walk in someone's shoes to know what they really believe.

[pianistimo]

well, as i see it - Christ wasn't worried about sinners, per se.  he told the adulterous woman 'go and sin no more.'  i could see that he might say the same to a homosexual - because he harbored no ill feelings.  i think he was careful not to offend 'the little ones.'  by 'little ones' he meant those that do not understand the laws of God.  how they are forever.  they are not here one minute and gone the next.  in fact, in the milleneum (quoting prophets in ot) there will be a time when the laws of God are in people's hearts.

revelations is just as much a book of the bible as any other.  it is not easy to understand.  in fact, most people just sort of overlook it because of it's 'mystery.'  and, yet to the apostle John - today's modern technology would have appeared mysterious.  that is what he saw.  our age!  our helicopters and airplanes.  how strange that must have been.  nuclear bombs.  that would have been fairly terrifying.  then, you also have the element of spiritual warfare - which God is capable of and will unleash at the end.  so = we have a sort of element of fear of revelations - excepting that it will also be the start of a new government.  the one that people sing about when they sing Handel's Messiah.  'for unto us, a King is born - and the goverment shall be upon His shoulders...'

[wishful thinker]

Hmmm, it tea time here in England...fruitcake anyone 

[jpianoflorida]

so wishful thinker, what do you actually believe or not believe in?  by reading your posts , it's very confusing to figure out where you stand.

[berceuse]

what's happening here is EVERYONE is generalizing....everyone( and I'll admit sometimes me) are stating that "all christians", "true Christians", "churches do..." etc etc....bottom line: you can't generalize and put everyone in the same category!   same with schools, piano teachers, etc etc.      And everyone will have their opinion!  Unless you have visited every single church, every single school , and then unless you have gotten to know every member , student, teacher.....you can't say that you know all about the issues.   Again, I'm speaking to myself as well!    You have to walk in someone's shoes to know what they really believe.

Exactly. There are Christian humanists, pacifists, anarchists, rationalists, mystics, universalists, etc why assume they all agree with each other? No two people in the entire world agree on everything why would anyone think 2.1 billion Christians do?

[wishful thinker]

so wishful thinker, what do you actually believe or not believe in?  by reading your posts , it's very confusing to figure out where you stand.

I am sorry for any confusion.  These discussions have proven very useful, in that I have to ask my some deep questions and seek further guidance.

I believe in Jesus Christ, who walked upon earth, physically, a real man, with or without a beard.  I beleive that he was God, but also one of three of the Holy Trinity.

Established theology really.  I have no reason to doubt it, and every reason to believe it>

[thalbergmad]

Hmmm, it tea time here in England...fruitcake anyone 

Yes please, i think i need it to help me get through these posts.

Thal

[pianistimo]

can we substitute lemon poppy seed cake for the fruitcake?  or, scones?  mmm.  i haven't had a scone in a long time.

[timothy42b]

YES YOU WILL.......most churches I know of, in fact every church that I personally know of and there are many would condemn it!

Okay, change that to every church with a pro-life stance.  I have asked, you know, and the answer I get is "well we don't condone that, and we wouldn't do that, but you can't blame him because after all it is murder of the innocent."  Pretty much the same response as was made here. 

Now here's the thing.  There is nothing in the standard doctrines of mainstream Christianity that should produce violence, war, terrorism, etc.  No part of the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Messiah, etc. beliefs would be negative in that sense.  And while I'm not an expert on Islam, I don't know of anything there that would do it either.  Certainly nothing in the Five Pillars would.

And yet, in times past Christianity produced major brutality, and still has a violent subset.  Islam has done so as well, and perhaps has a somewhat larger subset, maybe because they are younger.  Mohammed wasn't born until 570 and didn't really get his following started until 612 or so.  Presumably they will mellow over time - or who knows, Christianity may go the other way. 

What produces this?  Being at the fundamentalist end of the spectrum and being intolerant of other beliefs must be part of it.  It is not fair to simply define those people as not true Christian or true Muslim.  They are, though they may or may not be representative of the modern mainstream. 

[jpianoflorida]

Okay, change that to every church with a pro-life stance. 

nope! i still disagree...all the churches I am talking about are "pro-life" but they would condemm any bombing of abortion clinics or killing doctors!   

[jpianoflorida]

come on pianistimo:   give me your take on this one!

[pianistimo]

well, what immediately comes to mind - is what are they complaining about.  they're killing innocent lives that haven't even touched the souls of their feet on the ground.  and, what about teenage mothers who's wombs will not be able to carry a baby after that without being sewn up during pregnancy because of a job that scrapes the entire uterus of it's contents.  it's not a 'normal' operation.  it's an abnormal operation.  people say - well just take a drug in the first months of conception.  to me - that's still killing life. 

so, who's sinning most.  the crazies that bomb the clinic - or the people killing the babies?  God will ahve to sort that one out.

[maul]

Stop it. Live your life please.


No really. Stop it.

- God

[pianistimo]

i didn't call myself that.  nils did.  he said something about that he can't change it because when people make over 5000 posts (which he says only bernhard and i have done) it makes them a pianoforum God.  i told him that i didn't want to be God because it is against my beliefs to believe soley in myself.  i asked him if he must use a descriptive word,  to please call me piano forum 'queen.'  we'll see what happens.

ps  i don't know how to make a bomb.  if i were to attempt anything at an abortion clinic - it would be to bring breastfeeding mothers and line them up along the walkway - so the new mom-to-be might change her mind.  it would be quiet revolt - and if she didn't change her mind and was wheeled out the back door (which most clinics have a back door - that doesn't open for emergencies in case you need to come back because of hemmorage - you have to go to the emergency room for that one - and i did see a girl at the emergency room one time who had that exact experience) then she would have at least had someone give her another side of the story.

maul, i respect your right to present your opinion.  why are you against people talking when you do not hear what you want to hear?  what i think you and many people are trying to say is that the burden of responsibility is too great for young people.  that is your opinion - and perhaps in this day and age without education in the matter (besides condoms handed out right and left) is that young people feel they have no responsibility to society, themselves, or their future children or their own bodies.  that may be a 'right' for themselves - but what about later on?  will they regret the decision and wish they could have changed it?  only they could say.

another part of  this issue that i have grave concerns with is that if abortion becomes a legal 'right' - who is to stop more laws from coming onto the books as to who may perform them and also who may insist that a certain portion of the population have them.  ie prison inmates, mentally instituted people...etc.  imo, this would open a can of worms and allow for much sexual abuse under the guise of necessary evil.  as it is now, you can prove abuse by dna testing under which a woman would be granted her rights under the law.  abortion would destroy evidence.  also, who is to say that the child born to a couple out of wedlock - might not result in those two people someday forming a bond again in true love?  perhaps not in most cases - but in some it is a possibility.  i mean, if they were attracted to each other enough to have sex - then they might at least consider it as they became older and wiser.  there is a limited window of time when a woman is fertile and can have a family.  children make women happier, imo, because they have companionship and a heritage that grows and becomes helpful to her and visa-versa. 

i know i should stop now - but i have to also say a few things from personal experience.  having children was the next best thing in my life to 'love.'  it is a deeper love, almost - because you give everything and expect nothing.  also, the experience is awe inspiring.  the feeling of being pregnant is a wonderful thing if you can relax and enjoy it.  the thing is, for many younger women it is a very trying experience if they are the sole provider for their unborn child.  i think that God always makes a way - though - and from my perspective if you choose life - you are choosing blessings for yourself even if the beginning is difficult.  sometimes through difficulty we learn how much we are capable of and how much more love we have for a child because of all that we went through for them.  i don't think having a child is easy.  but, it does make one more aware of the small joys of life.  seeing life through a slower lens.  to enjoy watching a baby and feeling their grasp and being become stronger day by day.  it slows you down and makes you appreciate the graciousness of God to extend to us the gift of children.  to watch their personalities develop.  and become aware of a need to plan their environment to be safe and welcoming.

[maul]

I didn't call you that either.

[timothy42b]

come on pianistimo:   give me your take on this one!

jp,
You couldn't even get pianistimo to condemn it, and we all know what a softy she is.

Face it, you're defeated on this one. 

[jpianoflorida]

jp,
You couldn't even get pianistimo to condemn it, and we all know what a softy she is.

Face it, you're defeated on this one. 

nope , not defeated!   I'm involved with enought churches, religions, etc to know what I'm talking about in my area! maybe are you in a different area and things are different, but NO church that I know of would condone bombings or killings!  I'm not sure where are you from, but maybe it's different there, that's why you can't generalize.

[jpianoflorida]

nope , not defeated!   I'm involved with enought churches, religions, etc to know what I'm talking about in my area! maybe are you in a different area and things are different, but NO church that I know of would condone bombings or killings!  I'm not sure where are you from, but maybe it's different there, that's why you can't generalize.

[prometheus]

He didn't say condone, het said not condemn. Huge difference. I thought that was understood.

[pianistimo]

i have no interest in weapons of any sort.  none of the christian friends that i  know do either. 

abortion is supposed to be a 'choice' - but unborn babies have no choice in the matter.  if they are untimely or unwanted - they can be discarded like kleenex. 

[maul]

i have no interest in weapons of any sort

Your whole belief system is a weapon against society.

[prometheus]

Funny how they keep denying. Denial is such an interesting form of human behavior. People are able to deny anything.

abortion is supposed to be a 'choice' - but unborn babies have no choice in the matter.  if they are untimely or unwanted - they can be discarded like kleenex. 

Those 'unborn babies' are just part of the body of the female. It's like saying one should ask your nail or hair before cutting them.

The government wants to control the body of females. That's just wrong.

[pianistimo]

the government can use abortion (as with china's policies) just as much as anti-abortion.  the first would be far scarier.  to limit the number of children by aborting the rest.  only God has the determining say!  He created us, after all.  He can determine what to do about population control.   personally, i think He planned out how long we'd all be here.

i realize that some categorize all christians as 'fundamentalists.'  but, it's simply not the truth.  it's what the media want to portray.  just as with left and right wingers.  but, who is truly all left and all right.  most people i know are somewhere inbetween on a lot of issues. 

[jpianoflorida]

nything.


Those 'unborn babies' are just part of the body of the female. It's like saying one should ask your nail or hair before cutting them.

The government wants to control the body of females. That's just wrong.

that's just the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!!!!     .pianistimo, we might was well give up and just pray for some of these people...only God is going to be able to get thru to them!

[jpianoflorida]

.

i realize that some categorize all christians as 'fundamentalists.'  but, it's simply not the truth.  it's what the media want to portray.  just as with left and right wingers.  but, who is truly all left and all right.  most people i know are somewhere inbetween on a lot of issues. 

TRUE TRUE TRUE...I AGREE FULLY!

[prometheus]

that's just the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!!!!

It's rediculous to propose the baby should be asked. And even if the baby agrees Christians still think it is up to God. So this whole point is artificial. If you think about it the whole poin behind the ethics of this is that one cannot ask the baby. And the whole point is that in the beginning we have just a bunch of cells that is part of the female human body just like any other bunch of cells...
...Of course nails and hair are dead cells so the analogy isn't totally correct. If you really think my comment was ridiculous you should have realised this and pointed it out in an argument. But apperently you didn't so I will assume your view of my comments as being ridiculous is totally superfluctious. Especially considering you think your 'imaginary friend' needs to safe me...
...but after 9 months we have a creature of the human species, though in terms of mental awareness it will still take another 2 to 3 years before the baby will be aware like any other human. The problem here is, if you don't realise, that at one point the embryo needs to be considered as a human like any other. You cannot draw a line at the point where the baby becomes human.