Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[maul]

Such offensive and polemic topics actually don't deserve to get attention

Yes, offensive to those who are indeed infected by the plague. How amusing. Let us never mention anything "offensive" again. Ever again. "Offensive" things don't deserve attention. I prefer to stay in my bubble of ignorance. I will never venture outside. I will never venture beyond the ideas that have been forcefully pumped into my brain. Ever. Don't throw darts at my bubble, because it just might pop it! Those offensive darts. Damn them. Those damn offensive darts of truth and logic. Those damn offensive darts of ideas that contradict my bubbly box of thought-injected prisons in which we call my mind. Just put them away. Please. I beg of you.

[pianistimo]

i think it's a misnomer that christians cannot have true feelings.  after all, the bible says 'be ye angry and sin not...neither let the sun go down on your wrath.'  so here are two admonishments.  perhaps three?  you can BE angry.  but, as Jesus Christ did - we should pray to control it.  it's easier for some than others because typically how we grow up does affect our ability for self-control.  if your parents let you scream, then you might scream.  but, if you scream profanity - that is something that was never a controlled learning experiment.  to have someone else screaming at you perhaps and to control that urge to do the same.  maybe even surprise them and sit down and ask what you can do to make the other person feel better.  that always shocks them.

secondly, there are many places in the bible where people are told to seek forgiveness for sins against others before they pray to God for forgiveness.  like in the Lord's Prayer.  'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors....' 

and lastly, once forgiven - we aren't supposed to stay angry at those whom we have also forgiven.  that is probably one of the hardest things in this life to do.  after all - there have been some terrible atrocities committed in this world.  but, if you look at it peacefully and from the standpoint that God is the judge (not us) - then you don't worry about revenge.  you just ask God to keep the trials from happening again and again.  to ask God for protection and wisdom to stay far away from bad situations or see them coming.  i feel terrible for parts of the world that deal with terrorism or land mines.  it must be very hard to forgive when you are a soldier and see people blown up.  it's why i believe we are near 'the end of the age.'  war has always been - but the potential is on a massive scale now.

the bible prophecies that ALL nations will gather around jerusalem.  zech 14.  but, this time instead of a holocaust - Jesus Christ will return.  sure, it will be after the city is taken, half the people are prisoners, and women in danger for their lives - but, it then says 'the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle...and in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley...now this will be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth (their own nuclear devices will destroy them) - and it will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.'

as i understand christianity -the goal isn't to be plagued in mind - but to release yourself from the power of evil.  evil is the cause of the harms that are done in the world.  evil is the opposite of good.  war and peace.  two opposites.  one seeks it's own way -the other is concerned for neighbor as self.  if something that one does harms a neighbor - that is avoided because that is the christian law in summation.  it's a law of peace.  it promotes world peace if done by every individual.

btw, there is a warning by Jesus Christ to those living in jerusalem in matt. 24.  it says that when 'you see armies surrounding jerusalem and the 'abomination of desolation' (whatever that may be) standing in the holy place - then let those who are in jerusalem and judea flee to the mountains...for then will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. and unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.'  these verses indicate that there is some warfare potential to destroy everyone from the planet.

[term]

somebrainwashedguy

Oo
said the brainwashed guy.
Everybody can come up with that kind of arrogant bullshit. Impressive are those who choose not to.

I prefer to stay in my bubble of ignorance

You do indeed, and everybody of us does, but you will start to accept other opinions as soon as you realise that there is something to them that is true, and that everybody has his right to keep them. Don't you think that I, like you, believe you are brainwashed by science and logic? see the similarities between your and my (pretty much opposite) view and then come up again with the arrogance to think *you, and only you* have found the truth and we are wrong.
Crap, that is, and you will be laughed at by any reasonable person if you think that.
I don't, for sure.

"Offensive" things don't deserve attention

Well aalright, keep making offensive topics. They make people want to discuss. I personally just don't like them, thats all.

[pianistimo]

what i find inviting about christianity - is despite some christians hating jews - Jesus Christ is coming first to save them! 

[maul]

The brainwashed guy is not only brainwashed, but can't even recognize the most obviously and blatant forms of sarcasm. Even more amusing.

[term]

i have, i just ignored it and turned your statement against you. How did you not see it?
Whatever -

edit: ey, stop editing! I don't care anyway.
I mean there are cool people who are moderate if you're being a little bit moderate. With others, you can have a cool flamewar. I don't know where you are but i don't care anymore.

[maul]

I smell a hypocrite.

[pianistimo]

being accused of being a hypocrite by another person is meaningless.  we are all hypocrites in one way or another - or we'd be perfect.  perfectly evil or perfectly good.  term understands that none of us is 'good' in the sense of perfectly good.  so, how does that make him a hypocrite?

what is scary is there is such a thing as possession.  perhaps i shouldn't talk about this at halloween - but if you give satan easy access by using his own forms of worship -then you are inviting him and his spirit into you and your mind.  when one is 'fully spirit' - they can either be fully evil or filled with the Holy Spirit.  Jesus was filled.  that is why He said He came to 'do My Father's will.'  His life wasn't about greed or taking - but giving. He gave up His own life so that others could live eternally.

[thalbergmad]

oh well, suppose we should be grateful for having a couple of days off.

Thal

[prometheus]

lostinidlewonder is just as irrational as Pianistimo. Just not as obsessive. At least not obsessive about it on this board.

[soliloquy]

Because I created it.

Why would you choose to respond to that which does not interest you?  Don't you have something better to do and/or productive/interesting to say?

[thalbergmad]

what i find inviting about christianity - is despite some christians hating jews - Jesus Christ is coming first to save them! 

Told you this did he?

What is the source of this wisdom?

[maul]

Why would you choose to respond to that which does not interest you?  Don't you have something better to do and/or productive/interesting to say?

Speak for yourself.

[prometheus]

He will come and take us to suffer forever because we don't believe in the existence him/his father.

[counterpoint]

He will come and take us to suffer forever because we don't believe in the existence him/his father.

Who...? Rebby...?

[pianistimo]

i think it's a matter of trust.  the jewish people thought that Jesus meant that he would deliver them at that time - and He was ressurrected and did not free them from the romans.  but, it is said that at the 'end of the ages' - Jesus Christ or Yeshua will first come to Jerusalem to the mount of olives.  now, why does He come to His own?  because He loves them!  He was jewish, too - remember. His mother being told by the angel gabriel that her son would be given the 'throne of His father David.'  (luke 1:32)  but, another place says that David also called Yeshua 'Lord' - so although Jesus Christ was born of the line of David - He also existed before as the Word or logos. 

i don't think God is about race.  He's about obedience to His Word.  the jews, so far, are the most obedient to the law of Moses - which was the same law that Jesus said 'one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law until all is fulfilled.'  if Jesus is coming to the Mt. of Olives to fight the nations that surround jerusalem - who is He fighting for?  partially, the jews!  also, He is fighting for the entire world to be free of the dominion of Satan and turn it over to the Kingdom of God.  no more death or dying from evil ways or sin.  in zech 14:12-14 - it shows Yeshua fighting for the sons of israel - especially judah (or the jews) - and there is a mistranslation that 'judah will also fight.'  The Lord will have ALREADY done battle - and the jews will receive the spoil.  God will cause the plagues that they want to send on israel to go back on themselves.  namely, bombs and things that make 'flesh rot, and eyes rot in their sockets...'  that is in zech.  it's like he understood what nuclear warfare would do before it happened.  God is great - and He CAN prophecy what will come before it happens. 

btw, i am not jewish - but i believe 'to the jew first.'  there is someplace in the bible that says that salvation is to them first.  they sufferred the most for His ways - and so - will benefit as well.  when the disciples asked who would sit at his right hand - he just said that whoever would be the greatest should be a servant to all.  that is a much different form of government than we know today.  He will cause justice to be for those who were once considered small and weak.  perhaps the humble, meek, and gentle?  God resists the proud.

[prometheus]

It's a matter of scripture. If god changed his mind he should rectify himself.

[ramithediv]

btw, i am not jewish

REALLY 

[pianistimo]

i believe it was a matter of misunderstanding.  when 'armies surrounded jerusalem' in the roman times - it was mostly the nations that inhabited that region.  not - all nations of the world.  in the end times - it will be ALL the nations.  every nation will have some portion of their army there.  also, 'the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world....'  it wasn't preached in all the world at that time.  in fact, it had just STARTED to be preached.  and, finally, the 'abomination of desolation' was thought to be antiochus epiphanes - but will be the 'beast and false prophet' - who set up shop in jerusalem.  that means - another world government attempting to usurp Yeshua's place and crown.  both political and religious. 

i know this all sounds hyper-religious - but it's in the bible.  matt. 24.  that is what the jews were told.  they didn't know that it meant they would have to wait, like everyone else, for deliverance.  now, we know - in our day that israel was ressurrected to have a glorious part in Jesus return.  otherwise, He would not have bothered telling the jews to 'flee to the mountains' when they see jerusalem surrounded by armies.  He's telling them 'i come quickly.  hold fast that which you have....'  the jews have the torah of moses/God.  who else has been given the responsibility for keeping it safe?

i suppose that one might call me zionist - but as i see it - God is for ALL people.  it's just that the jews will be first.  they were called for a special purpose to be a light to the entire world.  to show them how to be holy.  how to worship the one true God.  God calls jerusalem the capital of the entire world (zech 14:16).  everyone will worship Him in spirit and in truth. 

the book of hebrews is also divinely inspired to explain Yeshua to the hebrews.  Jesus in the OT was without lineage (heb 7:3 'without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he abides a priest perpetually.  abraham gave him a 10th of all his spoils) like melchizedek.  a priest forever!  one to whom one brings an offerring and worship.   Yeshua (vs 17) is prophecied in the OT by king David in this way:  'Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Mechizedek.'

if you want to think of it this way - God can send angels when He wants - but He sent a representation of Himself (Yeshua) to abraham.  how awesome is that.  this man merely disappeared and noone knew where he came from or where He went.  that is because abraham was a righteous man and believed first before seeing.  God allowed Him to pay tribute to the man who's genealogy was not traced to the son's of Levi.  (heb 7:6). that means - abraham recognized something in melchizedek that was priestly.  actually, he started an 'order' - (heb. 7:11) 'for when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change in the law also.'  Yeshua has become the guarantee of a better covenant (heb 7:22).  the former was priests that were HUMAN.  they existed in greater numbers and prevented by death from continuing on perpetually.  but, Yeshua, on the other hand - abides a priest forever, and holds His priesthood permanently.  so, sinners do not need to go to a human priest or offer daily sacrifices - but, once for ALL - Yeshua gave his life. 

[thalbergmad]

i think it's a matter of trust.  the jewish people thought that Jesus meant that he would deliver them at that time - and He was ressurrected and did not free them from the romans. 

Oh, so because he miserably failed on his first appearance, he is going to put them first on his next visit.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

i know this all sounds hyper-religious

Not at all, just demented.

[ramithediv]

i know this all sounds hyper-religious

It is of course, what we have all come to expect from your posts. 

[pianistimo]

well, there is also such a thing as hyper anti-religious.  as i see it - that will be the UN and certain other religious bodies which noone seems to complain about when they take their religion to a political level. 

now, if someone complains about following Yeshua - they merely have to look to the crucifixion of Yeshua, the holocaust, and various persecutions of jews and christians to say - we have nothing to worry about from these people.  they could not possibly take over the world.

what i am saying is - who does want to take over the world.  is that not hyper-religious (actually anti-religious) and political?  it's an agenda.  who's agenda will we follow.  what is taught to be 'good' or what actually IS 'good.'  money - we know is not what we should follow.  so - we have to be able to distinguish what we need and what we want.  these times are evil and so following Yeshua is harder.

ultimately- it will mean picking the true winning side, though.  Jesus Christ WILL be King.  no matter if people decide they don't or do want Him to be King.  the true world government will be 'upon His shoulders.'  after all, He is God!  they are mortals.  and his government will be peaceable according to the laws that He created to establish peace.  the UN is a sad comparison.  do you know - they think that the crisis in sudan (at least the president of the UN says this) is caused by global warming.  first they blame the us for the crisis and now global warming.  they don't have an agenda for world peace if they make excuses.

[ramithediv]

ultimately- it will mean picking the true winning side

I thought it was about being a good person. 

[pianistimo]

you have a right to your beliefs, too, rami - and i'm not arguing about being a 'good' person necessarily.  but, i believe that God will judge all of us.  the bible says that those who choose Yeshua now - are being judged now.  not by law - but by grace.  that means that we, in thanks, attempt our best to be good - but also use the Holy Spirit (from God) which IS good.  it pricks our conscience to distinguish what is good according to the Word.

Jesus Christ said to someone who called him 'good master' - there is none good but one.  That is God.  He didn't even call Himself good!  that is how humble our creator is.  if He isn't good (which He is - but gave us an example to follow of humility) - i can assure you that none of us are either.  we're all sinners.

[ramithediv]

we're all sinners.

I'm not.

[thalbergmad]

what i am saying is

Bollox

[thalbergmad]

 the UN is a sad comparison.  do you know - they think that the crisis in sudan (at least the president of the UN says this) is caused by global warming.  first they blame the us for the crisis and now global warming.  they don't have an agenda for world peace if they make excuses.

Hmm, they seem to be failing in dealing with this crisis, but what is Jesus doing to help?

Thal

[ahinton]

Hmm, they seem to be failing in dealing with this crisis, but what is Jesus doing to help?

Thal

Well, He's not yelling "bollox" at it, seemingly...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Because I created it.

The fact of having created the thread does not of necessity obligate you to read what others conribute thereto and, in any case, I ask you again why you bother to read such contributions if they are, as you sugget, yawn-inducing?...

Best,

AListair

[maul]

*yawn*

[ada]

Creationists are idiots because they believe that god created the earth in a matter of days and that a snake persuaded adam and eve to eat an apple whereupon  they were sent packing from eden.

The fatal flaw in this theory is that snakes, like, can't talk.

Creationists are even bigger idiots because they scoff at the idea of evolution and think it ridiculous monkeys might have grown into men. But they have no problem with the concept of snakes evolving from eloquent, intelligent, seductive beings into the mute, repulsive, bits of garden hose they are today.

(apologies MD)

Go the flying spaghetti monster!

 

[mike_lang]

well, there is also such a thing as hyper anti-religious.  as i see it - that will be the UN and certain other religious bodies which noone seems to complain about when they take their religion to a political level. 

now, if someone complains about following Yeshua - they merely have to look to the crucifixion of Yeshua, the holocaust, and various persecutions of jews and christians to say - we have nothing to worry about from these people.  they could not possibly take over the world.

what i am saying is - who does want to take over the world.  is that not hyper-religious (actually anti-religious) and political?  it's an agenda.  who's agenda will we follow.  what is taught to be 'good' or what actually IS 'good.'  money - we know is not what we should follow.  so - we have to be able to distinguish what we need and what we want.  these times are evil and so following Yeshua is harder.

ultimately- it will mean picking the true winning side, though.  Jesus Christ WILL be King.  no matter if people decide they don't or do want Him to be King.  the true world government will be 'upon His shoulders.'  after all, He is God!  they are mortals.  and his government will be peaceable according to the laws that He created to establish peace.  the UN is a sad comparison.  do you know - they think that the crisis in sudan (at least the president of the UN says this) is caused by global warming.  first they blame the us for the crisis and now global warming.  they don't have an agenda for world peace if they make excuses.

Tangential as it is (and one can certainly find more tangential posts in this thread), I would like to inquire - who taught you sentence construction?  Did you pass over seventh grade English class, or do you simply refuse to confine yourself to "worldly" grammar rules?

Best,
ML

[lostinidlewonder]

If someone does no bad, then he can't do good.

The logic in that is like saying, if water can't burn a house down then it can't douse a fire. We as humans naturally do bad, it is in our nature, but of course we naturally do good as well. Christianity does not assume to make someone a "good" person, nor does it proclaim to give you amnesia from all your sinful thoughts/actions. Instead it gives you tools to deal with it.

If you see good people, you find bad sides about them. But they may hide them very well. If you find very good persons, you find very bad aspects of their personality. If you don't find them, you haven't lived with the person long enough or don't know them good enough.

Whatever lies hidden in our own personal private thoughts definately goes in between the good and bad. But humans have something called choice, we are not bound to an instinct like most other animals on this earth. We can harvest negative thoughts but make a choice not to act on them, or at least reduce the intensity that it invades our private mind or leaks out into our physical action.

So when you say now:

So that's pretty much why i'm not really into striving for being good *g* - of course i do a bit, but i allow myself to be bad sometimes; and that is actually a very strong experience - to know you can be bad, have a bad mood, and the others accept it as part of you and don't refuse you for what you are.

This does not give us permission to feel negatively at all. Although we do bad and can't help it it doesn't give us the right to do it. Nor does it give us the right to act bad with no remorse because of a learning experience you gain from it. You gain a much more important lesson from life if you learn to control what you naturally want to do instead of letting it uncontrollably run your life. You might not necessarily stop yourself completely from doing it but you definately will change how it affects your life.

You see if you have say a bad mood and get impatient with people you simply do not know what you are doing! What gives us the right to think that people owe us anything? Why does the world owe you anything? You might feel anger for a moment but you learn not to let this come into physical existance with words or actions. Mastering ourselves is a life long journey, it is weak to simply say to others this is my nature deal with it or you don't like me. It is what makes a child molesterer a predator, they know what they really want, they enjoy it so they'll do it without remorse and think everyone else has a problem. That might seem like an extreme example but it reflects the negative urges in our own life. You simply might not think that having an impatient miind is as serious as having unlawful sexual desires and you wouldn't if you do not have a God to answer to. As Christians we cannot really weight one sin against the other, all sin breaks our relationship from God, that is all we need to know.

The christian ideal doesn't really make sense in that way...

Chrisitians proclaim that we all sin and break our connection with God every awake moment. It definately does not say that if you are a Chrisitan you will glow with magical light and be a pure and good person.

A person being Good or Bad is a simplistic model, in reality, as you have also noticed, we are Good and Bad simultaneously, a ying and yang. There is a constant descision making for us to make that choice between right and wrong. Christianity most importantly gives us a connection to God and Christ which guides us through our Life and Death. With respect for a God you gain a greater respect for yourself and all people in this world.

If you respect only your own brains and logic then you serve an imperfect model. Those without God start saying, well I don't need God because everything I do in my life I have thought with my own head and done with my own actions without a God helping me. This is exactly what a Chrisitan does as well except; We do things in our life with our own thoughts and our own actions AND we are constantly asking a greater presence to guide us and give us the right words to say, right actions to do, right people to meet. We do not stand in a stupor waiting for a Voice to say GO FORTH, we feel God as we are resting and moving. We feel god when we plan, we praise god for giving us insight. We might naturally think these things without praising God but the fact that we acknowledge that our inspiration comes from God, this gives us greater appreciation and care of what words/actions that come from us.

A lot of discussion about Christianity when you deal with believers and non-believers should remain on the "Respect for a God". That is where it all starts. If you have no respect for a God then describing the other functions of Christianity to you becomes somewhat useless. It is like studying an overly difficult piano piece and ignoring the easiest part which you still find hard, and go into more confusing parts instead.

Respect for a God should not rest on I need Proof of God. Rather it should rest on how we deal with our thoughts and actions. We have to make a choice whether we do things in the name of humanity or God. You will find those who worship the world definately start to despair when death hits them. No atheist feels comfortable about death, they either feel apathetic to it or fear it. I would like to meet an atheist who says Death is something to look forward to, an athiest worships the material world for they have no god, so they want to exist in this material world as long as they can. Some might not want to and yearn to return to the abyss of non-existance from where they came. Sounds too dark and gloomy for me.

[lostinidlewonder]

lostinidlewonder is just as irrational as Pianistimo. Just not as obsessive. At least not obsessive about it on this board.

Irrational? No. Obesessive? Yes indeed. The teachings of Christianity are the most important things in my life. I have not said anything irrational, everything I have said stands true even if you are not a Christian. That we all do bad without being able to stop ourselves. That there is probably a good reason to better ourselves not on our own terms and for our own benefit but for a higher authority, something immaculate. You stand on the shoulders of giants to get far in life, this is a common idea in business. The same should apply to the way in which you deal with your thoughts and actions. Hardly illogical just out of the ability of some.

[lostinidlewonder]

what i find inviting about christianity - is despite some christians hating jews - Jesus Christ is coming first to save them! 

Ahhhhh what does that mean? Hate has no place in christianity, so to say some Christians hate Jews is the spirit of the anti-christ. If these Christians judge with a dissaproval of the Jews they will be judged themselves! The same goes for anything in our life, any hatred we harvest will follow you and will have to in the end answer to it. Judge not unless you want to be judged.

...
Jesus Christ said to someone who called him 'good master' - there is none good but one.  That is God.  He didn't even call Himself good!  that is how humble our creator is.  if He isn't good (which He is - but gave us an example to follow of humility) - i can assure you that none of us are either.  we're all sinners.

Christ actually said to him something like: Do you know what you are actually saying when you say Good Master. Christ indeed was a GOOD master, but he highlighted the fact that God is the only one who is good. Christ is God, but we can't really discuss that outside of Christian circles.



Its nice to see this thread explode into life again

[prongated]

I have not said anything irrational, everything I have said stands true even if you are not a Christian.

Christianity is only rational if you believe in God who creates everything including humans - in other words, the God in the Bible. No-one can accept the idea of sin, salvation etc. if they don't believe in such a God to begin with - that'd be either cowardly or stupid.

The problem stemming from this is how much Christianity actually encompasses this 'universe' that we are in. Non-Christians will claim it is irrational - as outlined above. There are thousands of other alternative beliefs, and Christianity is a subset of them. Christians will claim God transcends all rationality - their belief is the truth and is beyond other "beliefs". It makes sense, again, only if you believe in the God of the Bible.

It is impossible to have a rational belief because you need to know everything in order to do that. In hindsight though, if God really is God as described in the Bible, then indeed, mercy be on us all.

[lostinidlewonder]

Christianity is only rational if you believe in God who creates everything including humans - in other words, the God in the Bible. No-one can accept the idea of sin, salvation etc. if they don't believe in such a God to begin with - that'd be either cowardly or stupid.

The use of the word rational is being irrational. To say Christianity on a whole is rational if you believe in God is wrong. There are many moral values in how you live life which you can appreciate without even believing in God. You are saying that nothing Christianity teaches can be accepted without believing in God and this is dead wrong. Christianity does teach that first comes reverence for God, so disputing doctrines past this with those who oppose the existance of God is pretty much useless.

Faith does not come from us it is given to us but we can search for it. So no Chrisitian can point their finger at you and say you are cowardly or stupid for denying God because each and every one of them realise that their faith is God given.

So what do the faithless do? They throw up their hands and say, why should I believe in the Chrisitan God, let alone a concept of God. I guess a lot of us can blind ourselves with living in the material world, there certainly is a lot we can do to distract ourselves until our death.

There is absolutely no other religion out there which offers salvation for all no matter despite the works you have done in your life except Christianity. Every single other religion requires you follow a set of rules for your salvation. Christianity does of course have its Word we follow by however we clearly know that it is not that we follow the word, we are too imperfect to live by the word constantly, but that we uphold it and agree with it. No other religion allows this. No other religion gives answer to death as the ressurection does. No other religion has ripped a hole in the Jewish history as big as the hole of the ressurection which caused a massive movement into Chrisitianity.  The evidence for Christianity is overwhelming, tens of thousands of non chrisitan texts which support the life of christ.

All the information is there to let you know that belief in Christianity is far from irrational.  The Case for Jesus Christ, Lee Strobel is a wonderful (yet still only touches the tip of the iceberg) investigative report into Christ using texts outside of the bible and evidence to support the Ressurection. But again this takes many many years of your life to completely appreciate and verify, there is nothing you can read in a few pages that will change your mind. If you ever get interested to make a investigation into the case for christ you will notice there are things you can no longer deny. But you must see this for yourself if that is what your mind requires. It is not to say that Christians all know about the Historical accuracy of Christ. Not many of them would be interested to study ancient texts to support claims of the bible. That is why some people devote their whole life to it.

[prongated]

You are saying that nothing Christianity teaches can be accepted without believing in God and this is dead wrong. Christianity does teach that first comes reverence for God, so disputing doctrines past this with those who oppose the existance of God is pretty much useless.

The teaching of morality etc. etc. can be found in other religions and philosophies - they can't be accepted simply as Christian virtues unless you are implying that they stem from Christianity. Otherwise, it seems that you agree with me re: main Christian doctrine of salvation is irrational if accepted by atheists.

Faith does not come from us it is given to us but we can search for it. So no Chrisitian can point their finger at you and say you are cowardly or stupid for denying God because each and every one of them realise that their faith is God given.

You misunderstood me. Possibly my bad - I phrased the statement poorly. I meant to say that if you are an atheist and yet you claim to accept the whole notion of salvation as according to the bible, you either must be a coward [for fearing the consequence of faithlessnes: death] or stupid. This is to again demonstrate the point made above.

There is absolutely no other religion out there which offers salvation for all no matter despite the works you have done in your life exactly Christianity. Every single other religion requires you follow a set of rules for your salvation.

...so the odd one out in respect to the fundamental religious doctrine must be the answer. How very rational! What about other qualifications like "the first religion to exist on earth"?

All the information is there to let you know that belief in Christianity is far from irrational. The Case for Jesus Christ, Lee Strobel is a wonderful (yet still only touches the tip of the iceberg) investigative report into Christ using texts outside of the bible and evidence to support the Ressurection. But again this takes many many years of your life to completely appreciate and verify, there is nothing you can read in a few pages that will change your mind.

Historical 'facts' remain circumstancial at best, as evidenced by the need of the whole idea/conception of faith. You require faith only when the situation involves intangible variable(s). Thus Christianity is irrational in the strictest sense of the word - just like pretty much everything here on earth.

[pianistimo]

what i meant is exactly what you imply, lostinidle.  i used the word 'despite' some christians hating jews.  despite means that some christians call themselves christian - but are hateful.  this is not christian.  as you said - it is hateful.  so...it doesn't really MATTEr what we call ourselves.  it matters what God calls us.  anyone can call themselves a christian, athiest, agnostic, whatever!  following the ideals is the reality.  the Holy Spirit is consistent to produce fruit in our lives.  it should be 'peace, joy, love, longsufferring, goodness, kindness....'  against these, there is no law.

and, sorry ML about the grammar.  i write quickly sometimes and do not think it all through.

[ahinton]

what i meant is exactly what you imply, lostinidle.  i used the word 'despite' some christians hating jews.  despite means that some christians call themselves christian - but are hateful.  this is not christian.  as you said - it is hateful.  so...it doesn't really MATTEr what we call ourselves.  it matters what God calls us.  anyone can call themselves a christian, athiest, agnostic, whatever!  following the ideals is the reality.  the Holy Spirit is consistent to produce fruit in our lives.  it should be 'peace, joy, love, longsufferring, goodness, kindness....'  against these, there is no law.

and, sorry ML about the grammar.  i write quickly sometimes and do not think it all through.

Well, how welcome these thoughts and admissions are! The idea of Christians "hating" Jews is almost risible, given the racial originas of Christianity, but the fact that this kind of attitude is, in and of itself, hateful rather than Christian (whoever the hate target may be) is the real point at issue here and you are absolutely right in what you say.

When you write
"anyone can call themselves a christian, athiest, agnostic, whatever!  following the ideals is the reality"
you are getting to the centre of what really matters and displaying a more tolerant and wide-minded view than I think I've ever encountered from you and you are to be thanked and congratulated for that.

The only bit where I might take issue with you (not that it really matters) is where you write that "it only matters what God calls us"; atheists and agnistics don't fit into this scenario, since they do not have a God to call them anything, although in the light of all else that you write here, it seems almost churlish of me even to mention this...

You end by writing that
"the Holy Spirit is consistent to produce fruit in our lives.  it should be 'peace, joy, love, longsufferring, goodness, kindness....'  against these, there is no law."
and I'm not going to argue with a word of that (except that "long-suffering" is hyphenated and has only one "r"!)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

alistair,  thanks for your reply!  i realize it may be somewhat biased towards God - but all judgement, according to the bible, rests in God's hands.  so...even if one is agnostic or athiest - they may still be judged by God even though they don't recognize or acknowledge his presence now. 

the church of the flying spaghetti monster really exists?!  i found a site accidentally, whilst perusing for music related jobs.  how that happened?  perhaps a miracle.  a flying spaghetti miracle.  (yes...i believe in miracles - but this was a preponderance to find amongst music jobs). 

[thalbergmad]

i write quickly sometimes and do not think it all through.

Then I suggest you spend more time thinking and less time writing.

With practice, you might actually make sense.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i am surprised you are on here at all.  what happened to your circular girlfriend?  you are acting married already.  avoiding her?  well, that's what you get for ignoring romantic advice.  i suppose you insulted her?  put a moustache on her?  told her you were going to the scilly isles with mental martin?  took a bad pic of her.  all thighs or something.

[thalbergmad]

took a bad pic of her.  all thighs or something.

It would be difficult to take a good picture of her.

Her thighs could be used to support an oil rig.

Thal

[maul]

Ahhhhhhh. The sweet, prickly joy of not being brainwashed. A blessing indeed to not have had the toxins piped down your throat at the plumpy ripe age of indoctrination. Joy is the ability to roam, analyze, and re-analyze reality as you choose. What a concept. Continual analysis leading to ever-expanding ideas. An ever-expanding mind. Evolution of thought and the evolution of spirituality. Peace. No force-fed realities or false beings knocking on the doors of your mind. Meddling. No brain boxes being placed over your consciousness... dimming the rays of truth until they no longer shine. Living in the infinite.

[soliloquy]

Speak for yourself.

[lostinidlewonder]

The teaching of morality etc. etc. can be found in other religions and philosophies - they can't be accepted simply as Christian virtues unless you are implying that they stem from Christianity. Otherwise, it seems that you agree with me re: main Christian doctrine of salvation is irrational if accepted by atheists.

You clearly stated in previous posts that Christianity is irrational as a whole which you must retract and admit is incorrect. The teachings of morality which exist in Christianity where most definately many years ahead of themselves when written down, we may definately say revolutionary for its time. Things we take for granted in this age we live in now was very difficult back then, such as freedom of speech and love/care for one another. If you actually look at this historical period in which the Bible was written you will realise the ideas are generations ahead of its birth, and even surpasses our moral abilities today!

We should not confuse ourselves by saying this is a part of Christianity and that. It doesn't serve any purpose for the non-believer. If you do not know Christianity then you cannot say, oh I find these same morals elsewhere so Christianity is simply borrowing moral and philosophy from elsewhere. This assumption is empty and void of any real study into Christanity and simply does not tell us anything except limit our progress to learn and furthermore enjoy the worship of ourselves.

... if you are an atheist and yet you claim to accept the whole notion of salvation as according to the bible, you either must be a coward [for fearing the consequence of faithlessnes: death] or stupid. This is to again demonstrate the point made above.

I believe here again your thought process is incorrect. You seem very confident that this is a truth: If you are atheist and you accept the salvation from the bible, you are a coward.  This highlights only your opinion which seems rather flimsy when tested. A christian undergoes a lot of trial and study to learn what they know about the Bible. The very fact that Christianity grasps the evil within us by the neck and wont let us let go proves we are not cowards. How many people in this world simply do wrong and have no remorse for what they do? I assure you we all do this! Christians even do wrong, however they deal with the wrong they do, they do not ignore it, that would be the definition of a coward. One who knows there is wrong being done but escapes from it with apathy or ignorance are cowards.

For atheists you shouldnt even think about which RELIGION to go to, your mind is far away from understanding that complication. First comes reverence for God. Perhaps for atheists their life long spiritual challenge is simply to believe there is a God! To us believers of God we think, wow how easy is that, but we also don't know what we are talking about when we think that. No trial is easier than the other, for the believers they have a lot more responsibility to deal with what they know, as the bible highlights as your wisdom increases so does your troubles. So if we believe in God we have much more responsiblity to what we do with this relationship, and there is a lot more ease for us to displease God and know we are doing so! For the atheist you must work on all of your doubts by reasearch, it is certainly a huuuuuge task which will take your liftime. However of all the serious unbaised researchers into Christianity, many more have turned to Christ than not. Strobel is a nice example, an investigative court room reporter who spent years interviewing experts and digging the infomation himself until he found that he could not longer deny Christ.

Who is to say that every doctrine in the bible has to be kept? No one can do it, no one can become a model of perfection because we all are imperect! Understanding what Love is and how much greater it is than simply the people we love and the physical/emotional feelings we get is certainly not a cowards way of living. This is the evil spirit of the world, the spirit of apathy and indifference which goes against Christainity and is the cowards way of living.

Historical 'facts' remain circumstancial at best, as evidenced by the need of the whole idea/conception of faith. You require faith only when the situation involves intangible variable(s). Thus Christianity is irrational in the strictest sense of the word - just like pretty much everything here on earth.

Do you realise that people are put into jail and even death row with circumstantial evidence? The case for Christ is so tightly built and upon a titanic amount of non-chritian evidence circumstantial and otherwise, you will simply be left having to "deny without reason" to keep your mind unchanged. The devil certainly makes "You can't be certain" argument blind many people from progress. If you take away the YES and NO attitude and simply absorb knowledge you will start to see how the historical Christ simply is the same as the Christ of Faith. You surely can't be ceratin that a man murdered his wife, but if you discover that the man has a history of violence, that he has charges for battering his wife, that the friends mention that they heard loud arguments between the two before the crime etc etc, with all that you can put a man away without having video taped the crime or having a confession. Same same goes for when you try to find God and Christ. You don't need someone saying here is the video evidence that Christ rose, but you definately see it that way when you weigh up all the evidence.

But it is an enormous subject. How would you start studying mathematics? It is an enormous subject but you can learn to find its proofs in many different places and  quoted the same way by people who didn't know one another. The thing is most people simply don't care, they prefer to believe that Christ is a fake because living in ignorance is much easier. As a Christian I am quite disturbed by the number of people those who disapprove of Christianity but as soon as we test where they get their infomation from you realise it is simply their opinions based on no research, selective reading, and wrong method/logic as to how to prove the validity of history.

[lostinidlewonder]

Ahhhhhhh. The sweet, prickly joy of not being brainwashed.

Being brain washed is a process that I am sure if you researched would strike fear into you, it is a much more forceful tool which takes aims to destroy our choice and burn our bridges disallowing us to turn back. Christianity is hardly a bridge burning device, one might argue it burns the bridges of Sin which it does, but this does not mean we don't sin we sin, then we burn the bridge which makes the sin ourselves. We worship God with all our spirit but always displease him with our physical action and lust for the material world.

There are many people who have a connection to God that to you may seem brainwashed but the to the individual it isn't and that is what is important. What you may judge on someone else has nothing to do with yourself, you have no idea what is going on through their minds and how they use God. Nor is it a good way to make judgement on your own search for God through seeing it through others. God is a personal relationship much more than one you share with other people, but those in union with God of course benefit from learning from others experience with God.

There are people who can speak in tongues, that is speak with the Holy spirit through them. But even Christ said we should not do this in church unless there is someone to interprete what is being said. So Christ himself even says, there are parts of Chrisitianity which might seem strange and unusual to outsiders such as speaking in tongues, falling to our knees in prayer etc. In fact Christ says we shouldn't have to show anyone how we worship God, prayer in private is much better don't make it a public affair, don't pray and do so for the reason that other people see you.

So when I see on television some ministries where the people act blissful to the extreme, with the excitement of the Holy spirit, I feel somewhat annoyed but happy. Annoyed that they are showing such a display because more people will not understand it than will, but happy that often the feelings are very geniune in the individual and it is not for any of us to judge it. Still I hate things that are for show, and there have been many anti-christ ministries which work on SHOWMANSHIP than preaching the real Word of God. Peter Popoff comes to mind.

Trying to find God or Christ on TV is pretty difficult cos there are lots more wolves dressed in sheeps clothing that anything else! I can't believe people where fooled by Popoff, anyone with a brain would be scared when they hear him speak, it sounds like very poor acting or watch his body move, it moves like a snake! However it is so simple, in Christianity we are taught never to require another human to connect us to God or Christ, this man says look at me, I am the tool for God, you all need me to get Gods touch. A big joke. His preaching about the value of the material world is a clear anti-christ message.

Joy is the ability to roam, analyze, and re-analyze reality as you choose. What a concept. Continual analysis leading to ever-expanding ideas. An ever-expanding mind.

The nature of the human when we consider only the material world we live in is to increase our material gain. All of our actions when we worship the world is fueled by our desire to get more and more objects. Whether this be object as $, a lover to "complete you" or simply respect from other people.

Christianity does not say DO NOT ENJOY the material world. It does however warn about how easily we can end up making everything we do in our life revolve around material. How useless is it all to simply live life getting more power in your disposable $, make a family only with the hopes that your children have more children and get sucessful in the material world. Christianity thus opens us to better ways to live our life, and encourages us to do things we otherwise simply would not do if we only had ourselves to answer to.

If what you say, joy is analysing and re-analysing without being restricted then why dont you do this? Are you being serious when you say you like to read something about Christianity and if you don't understand it you will reasearch until you have all the evidence you need to make the right choice? You must have a lot of faith in your own capability to do this and already come up with the conclusion that Christianity is wrong. There are people who devote their entire life researching it and still will tell you they have more to look into! To have the mind of a researcher puts a huge burden on our shoulders, it is our responsibility to seek out the truth, you will find more often than now laziness will strike you, to get all the info is a mammoth task and thus our mind takes the shortcut saying giving us wrong emotional responses to things we don't understand.

[prongated]

You clearly stated in previous posts that Christianity is irrational as a whole which you must retract and admit is incorrect.

I did say Christianity is irrational as a whole, just as about everything else in this world is. I've shown you how I concluded that, given a certain meaning of "rationality". What you said in the rest of the paragraph doesn't change anything in regards to that.

if you do not know Christianity then you cannot say, oh I find these same morals elsewhere so Christianity is simply borrowing moral and philosophy from elsewhere.

I simply pointed out that it may not necessarily be that way all the time. I did that because you implied the retrospective case in your previous post. Please read what you (and I) have written more carefully.

The very fact that Christianity grasps the evil within us by the neck and wont let us let go proves we are not cowards.

I never remarked that Christians are cowards. You read my post wrongly. I was postulating an extremely hypothetical scenario where an atheist feared death so much s/he took in Christianity without actually becoming one [e.g. as described in Matt. 7:21].

Perhaps for atheists their life long spiritual challenge is simply to believe there is a God!

...or to prove that there is no God.

This is the evil spirit of the world, the spirit of apathy and indifference which goes against Christainity and is the cowards way of living.

No, not cowardly - just selfish oftentimes. And that is a very hypothetical and exclusive postulation as well - it doesn't explain the behaviour of altruistic atheists and other non-Christains.

Go back to the point that I made about Christianity: it only makes sense if you accept its universe. I think it is very important to accept that there are many ways of perceiving the universe and to not go gung-ho all the time about the universe according to the "truth" the Bible is. I am not saying that the Christian universe is necessarily wrong, but I am not saying it is definitely the truth either for reasons I have postulated before.

Do you realise that people are put into jail and even death row with circumstantial evidence?

Yes, and I am unsettled about that. Indeed as you mentioned, mistakes happen.

...I probably didn't make it clear before, but rationality in its purest definition essentially means that, having possessed perfect information (i.e. everything! not just every information that can be gathered by humans), one chooses the decision that brings the most beneficial/truthful/whatnot outcome. Thus nothing in this world is rational.

To us believers of God we think, wow how easy is that, but we also don't know what we are talking about when we think that. No trial is easier than the other, for the believers they have a lot more responsibility to deal with what they know, as the bible highlights as your wisdom increases so does your troubles.

Thanks for pointing that out.

As a Christian I am quite disturbed by the number of people those who disapprove of Christianity but as soon as we test where they get their infomation from you realise it is simply their opinions based on no research, selective reading, and wrong method/logic as to how to prove the validity of history.

In retrospect, history can be very manipulative and political etc. etc. I am dismayed by the number of Christians who don't really know the foundations of what they believe in.