Christianity - Plague of the MIND

[maul]

What is a human other than a bunch of cells, right prometheus? Your logic is flawed, my fellow chunk of DNA.

[kelly_kelly]

Those 'unborn babies' are just part of the body of the female. It's like saying one should ask your nail or hair before cutting them.

The government wants to control the body of females. That's just wrong.

Yes!

abortion is supposed to be a 'choice' - but unborn babies have no choice in the matter.  if they are untimely or unwanted - they can be discarded like kleenex. 

What if the mother had no choice in the matter? The "baby" can't really be considered a baby at the point of abortion, anyway. Besides, would you rather the "babies" be discarded after birth?

That being said, I would personally feel squeamish about aborting a baby after 7 months, having been born at 7 months myself. But there's nothing intrisically wrong with it.

[pianistimo]

adoption has always been a 'softer and kinder' choice to babies who are unwanted or the mother is unable to care for them.  although, at this point in many third world countries, it sounds like orphanages just don't have the means to care for them all - especially if they are drug or aids babies. 

i think it all starts sooner than a pregnancy.  i think it starts with teaching school kids about sex in a different way.  i'm not catholic - but i agree with the idea of boys and girls schools basically.  at least get them past 16!  i think it's fairly ridiculous for a girl of 12 to say she has a steady boyfriend.  of course, all girls are so different.  some are studious and some are not - just as with the guys.  i think if they all had a baby to carry around for a day - they'd wait.  just the carrying alone can make you tired if you are a small girl.

in cases of rape - i suppose that would be an individual choice and i think it often is.  you don't have to rely on the government if certain methods are tried and true.  go exercise beyond your normal routine.  drink coffee until it comes out your ears.  it's not that profound of a decision if you are just at the point of 'possible.'

but, at some point you start realizing your body is making huge adjustments to support a baby.  i remember going comatose the whole afternoon when i got pregnant with our first child.  i'd go to take a nap and wake up threehours later.  when you feel a baby growing inside you - you start wanting to do anything you can to protect it and keep it healthy.  i think teen moms that choose to have a baby need all the support they can get.  someone to truly care about their position and help them with diet and exercise and sleep. 

everyone has different viewpoints here - but i think planning has got to be before 'a decision has to be made.'  to me - there is no decision at all.  life isn't always perfect...but we can help others to get through rough times and bad decisions into a good time and good decisions.  if abortion might compromise future pregnancies of a girl- she should be told that.  also, the repercussions of hemmorage and all are not always told either.  and, on the chance she sees the baby and it is bigger than she imagined and fully formed - it will always be a 'baby' in her mind and not a lump of cells. 

[prometheus]

  it will always be a 'baby' in her mind and not a lump of cells. 

In most of what you said you avoided the discussion. Surely adoption is better. But we don't give the authority over the female body to the state just because 'adoption is better' People have the right to make the 'wrong' mistakes. Just like religious people have the right to deny reality. Though one should note that reality is a lot more objective than ethics. But one should critisize them for this if one is to say anything about it.

So it doesn't really matter if it is a baby in her mind, in your or in mine when we are talking about the right of the state to have control over the female body. Physicologically something is a baby only after birth. Before birth we have a Zygote, an embryo and up to birth a fetus.

None of these fall under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which only Somalia and the United States did not ratify. Here Somalia is a special case because it has no government to do the ratification, otherwise it would probably have. But the US just refuses to recognise the rights of children.

So maybe you should champion this treaty and vote on it during elections insteaf of arguing to reduce the rights of females. The same people that champion the rights of embryo's oppose the rights of children. And you can actually vote on this issue in the US.

Really, it is not about the rights of the children. For conservative politicians it is about reducing the rights of females.

[prometheus]

What is a human other than a bunch of cells, right prometheus? Your logic is flawed, my fellow chunk of DNA.

Yes, we are mechanisms made up by many many cells.

But I literally meant that a zygote and an early embryo is just a bunch of cells. Those cells have no function at all. There are stemcells. Then bones start to form. These bone cells, though they contain human DNA, are exactly the same as any other bone cell in any other animal. Still, it's just a bunch of cells. Then the cells of important organs do start to form, but they don't function yet. There are collections of heart cells and brain cells that aren't functioning yet.

Fully grown animals, and humans, have brains so they can feel pain, stress, discomfort. They are aware of the world around them. They can suffer. Thus one can harm those. One cannot harm a zygote or an embryo.

When we are talking about the fetus it becomes more complex. Because here it will slowly start to get a humanlike shape. But that's not relevant at all. We don't protect a human statue because it is partly human because it has the shape of a human. Only in week 24 to 26 does the brain of the fetus become partly active. Only then one can argue for protecting this collection of cells. At that point the fetus can feel pain. Still, the brain only starts to develop mentally after birth.

If someone proves that a fetus can feel pain after 10 weeks or after 4 then I will oppose abortion after those stages. But still then one can argue about the nature of this pain. It is still a prehuman feeling pain. That's not the same as a human having pain. But I am also opposed to animals being hurt so that's where my anti-abortion logic comes from.
All abortions done after week 26 are either illegal or done to save the mother. Or someone broke the rules, which I oppose.

We did this whole debate before... Everything I said here I said before.

[maul]

You, me, Einstein all started out as "just" a bunch of cells. You live in your own little box of scientific "reason", and you are almost as blind as Pianistimo in that sense.

[prometheus]

Why? If reality proves me wrong I will accept that and change my opinion.

My opinion is largely based on reality. I can't base it on reality anymore. So how am I wrong or blind? I just embrace reality instead of trying to project my own idea about what I want to believe. What more can I do?

Yes, sure we all grew out of those bunch of cells. It's amazing.

[pianistimo]

it's more than amazing...it's a miracle.  insemination, pregnancy, and childbirth are connected issues.  when you try to disconnect them - you are disconnecting pieces of society, imo.  you can say that i am not in reality - but you have not been pregnant (obvously - since you are not a woman).  i don't even understand why you take on women's issues so voraciously as though the side of pro-abortion in your mind is 'helping women's rights.'  many women today have a family and a career.

even women are divided on this issue, though, so i can't say that you wouldn't represent a portion of females who are clinging onto past ideas.

as for myself - i would prefer to keep men on a pedestal and appreciate them.  but, randomly choosing one for a one-night-stand and having a child by them isn't an ideal sort of life for any women.  that's why i stand by planning out your life from the time you are a young child.  that's where parents bear a certain responsibility for watching over and protecting their children from predators and from bad situations and teaching them (hopefully by example) what a good situation can be like.  i mean, if two people love each other - then it isn't like they don't want to have that person's children.

for my husband and myself - if i were to do it over i'd have five children.  no doubt.  i'd have them much earlier too.  like in my twenties.  i thought after i had my son that it was more work than i thought - but it's all planning.  you just learn how to do things in a more organized way than you do when you are alone and don't have to plan ahead so much.  when you have a baby you have to literally plan how to go out the door (on time).  when i see a large family - to me, it's almost like a reassurance that the couple really loves each other a lot to have that many children together. 

ps also, when i got pregnant, i considered it a privilege.  i prayed to have a son and it happened that he was a boy.  i felt like God was blessing me.

[prometheus]

A miracle is something supernatural that happans only once. A child is born every few seconds. It is neither supernatural nur does it happen only once.

[pianowelsh]

Miracle = This. That God who is eternal and totally pure. Would send his own son (who remained fully God) into this world on business to take care of our sin. not by popping to the bank and sticking in a top up to cancel the loan, but to actually surrender himself up to being nailed to a cross and taking the physical/spiritual separation from from God that we deserve in his body and making the payment in his own blood.  better than that rising again so that we who remain would have hope of the ressurection and would know that for those who believe he does in deed go to prepare a place for us with him and he will recieve us to himself. He also give us if his Holy spirit that we would know him and have relationship with him. Through his spirit he changes us and makes us like Jesus so that when we see him we will be like him.. NOW when we look at our fallen state - noone could deny that this is indeed a miracle.  Its a miracle or his Love. that He should love us enough to do this when we were actually 'haters of God' and a miracle of his Grace and mercy because we neither deserve his love or are worthy of his salvation. We ALL regardless or race, colour, beliefs etc deserve his righteous judgement.. there is noone who can escape or justify themselves before God. Its only by God's grace and by the blood of his son Jesus that those who put their trust in him can stand before a Holy God. Thats the miracle! And as I keep reiterating again and again its Love that is the center of the issue.  God's Love for his son, his Love for us, Our love for him and our love for oneanother.  'By this shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have love for oneanother'  So really we are discussing a Plague of Love?!?! really all these side issues on things like abortion and war and religious intolerance are just pointing a finger at God and saying he isnt as loving as he makes out is he!! But I tell you we have really no concept of how loving God is and how just he is and how powerfull he is...i could go on but God is all in all. I paraphrase scripture when I say that You oh Lord are God in Heaven we are really small and limited here on earth..let our haughty, short-sighted words be few and lets instead turn our eyes and look at you.

[pianistimo]

agreed.  sometimes we don't understand fully in certain situations why this or that had to happen.  but, if we look at Christ's willingness to suffer - then we realize that he sufferred far more for no obvious reason much more than ourselves.  we usually set ourselves up for sufferring situations.  a lot of people want to put the blame elsewhere - but, even if you are born handicapped or have a situation of rape or whatever - you don't have to stay stuck at square one your entire life.  put it all in God's hands - and you will witness many miracles in your lifetime.  God's words are not in vain - so if He says 'pray' this or that - then we should pray.  also, a mustard seed of faith is all that we need.  we don't have to be just like someone else who seems so much more full of faith.  God sees each of us individually and blesses us despite ourselves, as pianowelsh says, if we have faith that He can and will. 

[pianowelsh]

Yes but there is of course a HUGE difference between us and Jesus.  each of us deserves to suffer because we are sinfull by nature. We dont have to be taught to be sinfull it comes out naturally..we are born with it. Romans and other passages explain that we are born in sin. We are in fact naturally without hope. It is only Christ in his perfection who is able to give us hope because he the sinless one died on our behalf and has taken our sin upon himself so that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord to save them out of their sinfull existence can be sure that they will be saved. Christ promises it and he says he shall loose none the father has given him.  God is indeed powerfull and able to heal any condition and sooth any pain without difficulty BUT far greater is his power to save people from their sin. This is what is of primary importance, because even those who in scripture he rose from the dead eventually in the course of time died again, those he healled from diseases still came to old age and died - they are not still living.  But to Trust in Jesus and have sin forgiven is to have eternal life, which is both a quanity (which is without measure) and also a quality because there is joy, peace, freedom etc in knowing sin forgiven. The knowledge of Gods love for us in paying for our sin enables us to walk in love. (hey its that word again!)

[maul]

We are sinful because we are still primitive.

We are religious because we are still primitive.

We are sinful because religion says we are.

Religion says we are because we are still primitive.

We are still primitive because of religion.

Religion will pop your brain right out of your skull and onto the curb of reality where it will be stomped on by your own feet.

Spirituality will expand your brain into the infinence of reality and you won't need feet anymore.

[kelly_kelly]

We are sinful because we are still primitive.

We are religious because we are still primitive.

We are sinful because religion says we are.

Religion says we are because are still primitive.

We are still primitive because of religion.

Although I feel come things you said were unfair, I have to agree wholeheartedly with this.

[thalbergmad]

i prayed to have a son and it happened that he was a boy.  i felt like God was blessing me.

Not exactly massive odds against having a boy.

Thal

[pianistimo]

yes.  my husband comes from an all-boy family - so perhaps the girls were the miracles.

[timothy42b]

Not exactly massive odds against having a boy.

Thal

When I worked in a mental hospital, two of the schizophrenics sneaked off and made a baby.  One of them told me God spoke to him at the moment of conception, told him it would be a boy, and instructed him what to name it.

But it was a girl.  Go figure. 

[pianistimo]

in the biblical way of it all - having a boy first is a sort of blessing on a family because he is a firstborn son and the carrier of the family name.  of course, there are exceptions where females carry the family name by simply keeping it.  was reading a novel (villa) about this - where a wine growing family has a daughter who marries but keeps her family name. 

anyways, i don't suppose you all think it is a miracle - but to me - it was.  he looks after his sisters now - and if anyone tried to mess with them - he's the big brother who would knock their lights out.

[pianowelsh]

Oophs! I disagree..
GOD says we are Sinfull. (why do you think you feel guilty whe you do wrong things??)

He is the only righteous one without sin and therefore is the expert. he knows exactly what sin is (we struggle to identify it OFTEN).

We are not in any way primative. We are made in the image of God. Whether or not we believe in him. Thats why killing seems to abhorent to use.

Christians are made Alive to God through the work of the Holy spirit so we no longer walk in darkness (the picture often given is blindness) and indeed far from being primative the word of God revealled to us, scripture says makes us wise unto salvation.

To put it more primatively (for those who consider themselves primates) The words of God spoken to us through the bible tell us (like being able to read danger sign) ask God to save you while you still can. you dont know when its gonna blow, but it could be soon.

pianistimo: dont let anyone snatch the blessing away from you by down playing it. How much of a miracle it was who knows? God knows what went on in your womb we dont - praise God! BUT the miracle there is He knows your situation and He knows the future, he knows exactly what is best for your family and in his wisdom he decided to hear your prayer and allow you to have a son. He is most definately a blessing from God to you and im sure your husband.  We can of course pray that God will in due time miraculously save him and redeem him to himself..a double blessing for you

[ahinton]

Oophs! I disagree..
GOD says we are Sinfull. (why do you think you feel guilty whe you do wrong things??)

He is the only righteous one without sin and therefore is the expert. he knows exactly what sin is (we struggle to identify it OFTEN).

Look - I don't seek to undermine - let alone ridicule - your obviously genuinely held beliefs, but I must nevertheless ask about God "saying" anything at all. Have you actually heard Him speak? Surely even those who believe in God haven't ever done that, so why this statement that "GOD says" this or that? I know that you are probably not especially concerned with those who don't believe in God (other than to evangelise and try to persuade them to start doing so), but this kind of statement is really not going to appeal in any way at all - or indeed even make a shred of sense - to anyone who either does not believe in God (atheists) or is unsure of whether a belief in God can be justified (agnostics)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

Yes i have! Daily in fact   ooph now these an interesting one for athiests to ponder

[timothy42b]

- or indeed even make a shred of sense - to anyone who either does not believe in God (atheists) or is unsure of whether a belief in God can be justified (agnostics)...

Best,

Alistair

Actually, Alistair, it doesn't make a shred of sense to me, and I AM a Christian.  A spade is a spade, and wacko is wacko, and sometimes you've got to call it.

For that matter, it isn't even Biblical, unless you read VERY selectively. 

[prometheus]

Yes i have! Daily in fact   ooph now these an interesting one for athiests to ponder

Not at all. There are quite some people that have hallucinations and that hear voices. Often it is innocent but sometimes it can be dangerous. If you really do hear voices I suggest that you go visit a doctor. Things like schizophrenia can sometimes cause people to do things they will never want to do. Yes, including things like murder.

It may sound like I am trying to rediculize your faith. But if you really hear voices the only way I can react is to recommend this because it is for your own good.

[ahinton]

Yes i have! Daily in fact ooph now these an interesting one for athiests to ponder

Not at all. There are quite some people that have hallucinations and that hear voices. Often it is innocent but sometimes it can be dangerous. If you really do hear voices I suggest that you go visit a doctor. Things like schizophrenia can sometimes cause people to do things they will never want to do. Yes, including things like murder.

It may sound like I am trying to rediculize your faith. But if you really hear voices the only way I can react is to recommend this because it is for your own good.

And - since "prometheus" is no more trying to ridicule your faith as am I - I should add that, if your experience is not what "prometheus" suggests (about which he counsels you to seek medical advice), it would appear either that you must personally be on face-to-face speaking terms with God or at the very least have his phone number (or He has yours, or something)...

Best,

Alistair

[kelly_kelly]

Oophs! I disagree..
GOD says we are Sinfull. (why do you think you feel guilty whe you do wrong things??)

God says we are sinful? That's one of the most retarded things I have ever heard in my life. I don't give a **** what your God is telling me- I will be the person I choose to be.

Sorry if that turned out excessively offensive, but things like that really bother me...

[prometheus]

It's the basic idea that makes Christianity, still the biggest religion in the world, different from the other two Abrahamic theisms

Humans became sinful after eating from 'the tree of life'. It is called original sin. Because all humans are born to be only sinful Jesus had to die at the cross to make it possible for us to go to heaven.

At least, that is the core dogma of Christianity. I am glad you think it is a very retarted idea. I agree. Every normal people would find it retarted.

[pianistimo]

God speaks through His Word.  He is the light of life - and when He came into the world - people realized He WAS God.  even the roman centurion who observed his death said 'this man was truly the Son of God.'  something about his death - and also his mannerism before death. 

the same can be said for martyred christians.  it has often been observed by their calmness and calling out for God to receive their spirit.  much like Stephen, who was stoned to death.  Christians all down through the ages have been ridiculed and blasphemed and killed for believing in God and Jesus Christ. 

but, it doesn't mean that it will be this way forever.  Christians believe that God is also just.  this means that the tables will turn someday - and we will not be disappointed to wait for our rewards for believing in His saving grace.  also, he says that He wishes that noone perish - but that the entire World be saved.

ps if you accept Christ (and/or are baptized) you have the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth (to understand how to rightly divide the word of God).  so, when we read the bible, God is effectively talking to us.  without guidance - we wouldn't know why we were born and what purpose we are here for.

christianity tells us to think about others first.  to be willing to suffer.  to be kind.  gentle.  full of mercy.  we aren't always perfect - but our goal is to be like Jesus Christ.

[thalbergmad]

even the roman centurion who observed his death said 'this man was truly the Son of God.' 

That was John Wayne. Me az seen the film.

Thal

[prometheus]

God speaks through His Word.

What? It's like saying: "Horowitz performs music through his notes." You always speak using words. This sentence is like the famous "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously." They work grammatically but they have no meaning.

[pianistimo]

what i mean is that we cannot physically speak to God unless we are given a dream or hear His voice miraculously.  not many people do.  so, the next best thing is to read the bible.  nothing less than listening to a recording of horowitz and taking in the nuances of his playing.

[thalbergmad]

unless we are given a dream or hear His voice miraculously. 

I thought that happened to me once.

I was blissfully asleep when i heard a booming voice say "for pities sake, stop snoring".

However, when i woke up, it was my brother, not God.

Sad innit.

Thali

[pianistimo]

perhaps your brother was inspired.

[ahinton]

perhaps your brother was inspired.

No, I think that, if you read once again what Thal wrote, you'll find that it was he that was doing the inspiring...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i thought it was expiring?  oh well.

[kelly_kelly]

It's the basic idea that makes Christianity, still the biggest religion in the world, different from the other two Abrahamic theisms

Humans became sinful after eating from 'the tree of life'. It is called original sin. Because all humans are born to be only sinful Jesus had to die at the cross to make it possible for us to go to heaven.

At least, that is the core dogma of Christianity. I am glad you think it is a very retarted idea. I agree. Every normal people would find it retarted.

So curiousity is a sin? Doesn't it natuarally follow that science and knowledge are sins as well?  This is truly depressing...

[prometheus]

I don't understand the idea behind it. It is a bronze age idea, so that is not so strange.

I do not think modern people can understand.

[thalbergmad]

So curiousity is a sin? Doesn't it natuarally follow that science and knowledge are sins as well?  This is truly depressing...

After reading about Giordano Bruno, i guess curiousity used to be a sin.

Not sure if it is now.

Thali

[emill]

  ahhmmnn ... the never ending debate about religion !!

It's like water and oil; they can be in one container but can't seem to mix well.

[berceuse]

The Fall of Man (in my opinion) is not about curiosity but the fear of nothingness. The serpent said eat of the fruit and "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing." Adam feared without "knowledge" he would be nothing. Once Adam ate the fruit he was not awakend as the serpent promised but was in fact put to sleep while becoming the slave of knowledge. The moment Adam gained "knowledge" sin entered the world and man lost his innocence.  Thus, trying to obtain truth through knowledge, as Dostoevsky put it, is the "absurdity of absurdities." This is why many people feel that science is deceitful (sorry I can't think of a better word). I am not saying science does not deal with factual information but it is just an interpretation of fact. Whether that reveals truth we have no way of knowing. I also wouldn't say science and knowledge are sinful but it is foolish to say they uncover certain truth, it is all speculative. And yes, that is enough to drive yourself insane but that is part of the "sickness unto death"(Kierkegaard ) and why so many feel that death is a victory over one's demons.

"Truth is eternal. Knowledge is changeable. It is disastrous to confuse them." -Madeleine L'Engle

[timothy42b]

I don't understand the idea behind it. It is a bronze age idea, so that is not so strange.

I do not think modern people can understand.

If "it" is original sin, I'm not so sure it is a bronze age idea.

It can't be found anywhere in the Old Testament.  The idea that people are inherently sinful and can't be saved by following the law to the best of their abilities did not exist until long after NT times.  The requirement for a messiah to save people from sinfulness did not exist in the OT.  The only type of messiah therefore would have been one to free them from a conquering nation such as the Romans. 

[timothy42b]

The moment Adam gained "knowledge" sin entered the world and man lost his innocence.  Thus, trying to obtain truth through knowledge, as Dostoevsky put it, is the "absurdity of absurdities."

I think what Adam gained (metaphorically, of course) was not knowledge but awareness. 

Awareness may be considered the same as having a soul. 

Adam is not a name but a generic term for mankind, as I'm sure you know.  So Adam's "fall" represents the point at which the evolution of humans reached the level of selfawareness that meant they now have a soul. 

Of course, there isn't any proof of the soul's existence, nor can there be.  But it is a standard concept in most religions and I'll assume it for the sake of argument.

[mike_lang]

The Fall of Man (in my opinion) is not about curiosity but the fear of nothingness..."Truth is eternal. Knowledge is changeable. It is disastrous to confuse them." -Madeleine L'Engle

The Fall of Man is about arrogance - the same arrogance by which Satan fell from Heaven.  God had forbidden them from eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and so the lying serpent told Eve that it was because He did not want them to be Gods, knowing subjectively and arbitrarily what is good and what is evil.  The error was that man thought he knew better than God, which is why he "fell" from the Earthly Paradise.  Our inheritance, in my opinion, is the wide spectrum of "morality" that we experience today, with each man judging for himself what is right, according to his feelings, indepedent of Truth.

I really like to L'Engle quote, by the way.

Best-
Michael

[mike_lang]

So Adam's "fall" represents the point at which the evolution of humans reached the level of selfawareness that meant they now have a soul. 

I'd like to refute your point - the soul is the life-giving principle which all living things have.  The spiritual soul, on the other hand, is what is unique to man.  When God breathed (from spirare) life into man, during Creation, I am quite tempted to think that this was the evolutionary point at which he was given this spiritual soul, composed of will and intellect, which make him man, not ape.  (Also, when it was said that Jesus breathed on his disciples, this was the anointing with the Holy Spirit.)

I agree that at the time of the Fall, Adam became incredibly self-aware, even ashamed.   There was a shift of focus from God to man by the decision that was made in the Garden of Eden.  Nevertheless, this was not a positive shift; it was a result of the deception of Satan, which caused the Truth to be exchanged for a lie.  I think that in this there is a prefigurement of humanism (partly the Renaissance philosophy, but mostly the modern variety).

M

[prometheus]

You are right, 'original sin' isn't a bronze age idea. It's the interpretation of a bronze age myth.

[pianistimo]

in leviticus 16:15 - a 'goat' was offerred as a sin offerring for the people of israel.  this was on the day of 'atonement' (or at one-ment) with God.  this was not for individual sins - but collective sins - as people came individually for sin offerrings and whatever during the year.  the fact that God views us collectively as well as individually is found everywhere in the OT and especially in regards to sin.  they were at various times told to fast and pray and come together individually AND as a nation.  abraham lincoln was not unaware of this and created a day of Thanksgiving to God - to thank him as a nation for our blessings.  there are many presidents who have called for a day of fasting.  of repenting, basically, of sin so that God can bless our nation.

the other 'goat' (the live one) represented azael (satan) who takes the sins of all israel and basically all the nations of the world - and one day will be bound for a thousand years.  this is typified in lev. 16:21-22 'and the goat shall bear on itself all the iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.'  this scapegoats blood was not spilt - as Christ's was.  a substitute was insituted.  satan's own twisted hand comes back to hurt only himself.  God is always above Him in righteousness.

a positive substitute can be found also, with the sacrifice of abraham's son issac.  He was a 'type' of Christ to come.  abraham was faithful in everything.  and, he did not doubt God even to give back his son.  but, God was showing us - how meaninful it is to give up your ONLY son.  God did this  - for us!  of course, he did not allow abraham to sacrifice his son - but helped us realize the import of having a substitute sacrifice for OUR sins.  He always provides.  if there were no sacrifice for sin - our sins would be meaningless (having no penalty for disobeying the law - would mean the law is nothing).  God means what he says.  'the soul that sins, it shall die.'  of course, we all sin - but if we accept Christ in our stead - we are helped by the sacrifice of His blood that was shed for ours in DEATH - so that we can have LIFE. 

[timothy42b]

You are right, 'original sin' isn't a bronze age idea. It's the interpretation of a bronze age myth.

But I'm fascinated with how the concept came into being.  It is the very foundation of modern Protestantism, yet is not to be found in the entire Old Testament. 

[pianistimo]

that is because satan tried to foist it off on us!  of course, he wasn't human - and original sin is thought of as originating with eve.  but, jude 1:6 mentions 'angels that did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode (with God), He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgement of the great day.'

a little further on - in vs. 14 -jude mentions 'and about these also enoch in the seventh generation from adam, prophesied, saying, 'behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgement upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.' 

we know that enoch was righteous and he was one of the only ones that was taken directly to be with God.  perhaps we will understand how this is so -someday. but we know - he 'walked with God.'  if someone back in the OT actually COULD walk with God (as Moses did) then it proves that this was possible - to have a connection with God as adam and eve did in the garden.  noah, samuel, king david, solomon, all the prophets, many people walked with God and were guided by the Holy Spirit before it came in the fullness of Christ.  it seems that they were 'annointed' either physically or at birth as with Jeremiah.  born to be a servant of God without knowing at first-  but realizing later that their life was a calling to be a prophet. 

original sin was simply the original sin that adam and eve sinned - but, if we are each judged individually at the judgement - why could we not claim ignorance based on 'original sin?'  well, because Christ expounded the law and told us that we should listen to the Word and not just doctrines of a Church.  'and these are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.'

the chapter previous to that in mark (mark 3:33-35) says, 'who are my mother and my brothers?  and looking about on those who were sitting around Him, He said, 'behold, my mother and my brothers!  for whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.'

so, as i see it - especially concerning the 'books' that will be opened on each one of us - we cannot claim 'original sin' as an excuse for ignorance of God's word.

[pianistimo]

rev. 20:12 'and i saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to THEIR DEEDS.'

in many places it says of the saints 'their deeds follow with them.'  Brahms wrote of this in his german requiem.  so, if we do good deeds, they will be remembered.  and, if we repent of evil deeds, they are thrown 'as far as east is from the west.'

it is true that we are born into a certain sinful state - but it is not really any kind of theological argument against the judgement of God.  we can't say 'adam and eve sinned' therefore it is hopeless for me to attempt to be righteous.  Christ paid the penalty for us - so we have a motivation to keep doing better than the knowledge we were taught or born with.  we have to read God's words to know what is righteousness.

[pianistimo]

an interesting scripture is found in I timothy 2:14 'and it was not adam who was decieved (he knew better), but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.'  she saw in gen. 3:6 'that it was good for food, and a delight to the eyes'  - so the additional selling point was kind of a moot point to her.  if it gave her wisdom to be like God, so be it.  it was an impulse decision.

adam had been careful up to this point - but, as i read it, sort of gave up when he saw the bite taken out already.  and, didn't want her going down by herself.  at least we give him credit for that!

i timothy is an interesting book regarding the admonition of paul to a young man of how to be righteous.  'realizing that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.'

we would not know these things were so without reading the Bible.  society certainly does not say they are immoral or sinful - because sin is not a concept of modern university thinking.  it is 'whatever is right in your own eyes.'  that is the line satan told eve.  but, once you are taught - by God - what is right - then you start trying to make changes.  they might be little ones at first - and not everyone is committing a lot of sins all the time - but they can be sins of the MIND.

God told cain about his countenance falling.  we can become irritated at God Himself.  but, if we overcome Satan - who tries to make God look unfair - we have access to the highest form of the 'gaming world.'  it is not a game - but in effect we have consequences for all that we do.  we can take Christ's sacrifice in our stead - and jump immediately to a higher level.  it is a level where we have access to the Holy Spirit.  it will guide our minds to think as God does about sin.

paul said 'i was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent agressor.  and yet, i was shown mercy, because i acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.' then he says, 'it is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom i am foremost of all.'

so he goes on to admonish timothy (a young man) to avoid some of the things that he himself was tempted by.  and, he mentions attributes to copy:  having one wife, above reproach, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, gentle, uncontentious, free from the love of money, manages his own household well, keeps his children under control with dignity, a good reputation, not double tongued, holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

younger women are told a few things too, to copy:  dignified, not malicious gossips, temperate, and faithful in all things.  so - we can read these portions of the bible and see that there are definate things that God has in mind for us to do - and not to say 'well, i was born under sin.  i will always be that way.'   

[pianistimo]

ps regarding what was said by paul to be sin - the expounding of sin from Jesus would mean that not honoring your parents would be = to killing them, that looking at a woman with lust = adultery, that hating someone = murder  - - so all these things are starting in the mind.  and, that we don't have to physically commit murder, etc. to participate in sin.  'come out of her my people...' - mentioned in isaiah, to the jews in babylon - is similar to the begging of Jesus Christ Himself to all of those in the world today.  rev. 3:10 'because you have kept the word of My perseverance; I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole earth, to test those who dwell upon the earth.  i am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that NO MAN TAKE YOUR CROWN.'  (we have crowns awaiting us!)

'he who OVERCOMES, i will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore (we will dwell with God); and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.'

'i advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed... and also, 'behold, i stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My  voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me.  he who OVERCOMES, I will grant to Him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne....'