What I learned during practice today :

[m1469]

I think it could provide great insight if people post about what they feel they learned in each practice day.  Like a practice journal, but online so others can read it and learn from it, too.  So, it's kinda like a community blog then, I suppose (what if we could each have a blog for a practice journal as part of our membership here ?  ).  I am striving to put aside my obssessive need for better organization than what this single thread will provide. 

Please join in !

I will start :

Today, one of the most interesting and influencial things I learned was that inaccuracies in what seems like hand and finger coordination, can actually be caused by having another region of one's body being "fixed" or tense.  I read something along the lines of this in Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" and decided to train my thinking, with this in mind, as I was practicing.

So, as I was practicing a Rachmaninov prelude, Op 32 no 13, there was a jump and a chord-grab in my right hand that I was not able to get with consistency or great comfort.  I then decided to search my body with a kinesthetic sense to see if there was anywhere that was tense.  As it turned out, my left-hand lower back was tense.  So, I decided to relax those muscles and to my amazement, as soon as I did this and tried the movement once more, it was exactly as I would like it to be.  And I could repeat the movement over and over again (only 7 times  ) with the same success and confidence.

This opened up an entirely new avenue of thinking for me, which carried over into the rest of my practicing.

He mentioned that most pianists practice compensations -- in that they are practicing things that are necessary only because the quality of movement is poor.  This kind of hit home for me.



m1469

[00range]

I think it could provide great insight if people post about what they feel they learned in each practice day.  Like a practice journal, but online so others can read it and learn from it, too.  So, it's kinda like a blog then, I suppose (what if we could each have a blog for a practice journal as part of our membership here ?  ).  I am striving to put aside my obsessive need for better organization than what this single thread will provide.

I will start :

Today, one of the most interesting and influencial things I learned was that inaccuracies in what seems like hand and finger coordination, can actually be caused by having another region of one's body being "fixed" or tense.  I read something along the lines of this in Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" and decided to train my thinking, with this in mind, as I was practicing.

So, as I was practicing a Rachmaninov prelude, Op 32 no 13, there was a jump and a chord-grab in my right hand that I was not able to get with consistency or great comfort.  I then decided to search my body with a kinesthetic sense to see if there was anywhere that was tense.  As it turned out, my left-hand lower back was tense.  So, I decided to relax those muscles and to my amazement, as soon as I did this and tried the movement once more, it was exactly as I would like it to be.

This opened up an entirely new avenue of thinking for me, which carried over into the rest of my practicing.

He mentioned that most pianists practice compensations -- in that they are practicing things that are necessary only because the quality of movement is poor.  This kind of hit home for me.



m1469

Great idea, m1469. Thanks for sharing.

I had a moment similar to what you've described. In the past, when a particular passage has frustrated me, I would have to take at least a few days off from it to avoid building anger (boy, there's a whole topic in itself, frustration leading to anger) which was, of course, not conducive to relaxed playing. One day, as I felt frustration building I was determined to filter out all unnecessary tension, and as I did so, it had the fortuitous side-effect of melting away all of my frustration. The end result was that I was calm, relaxed and able to actually practice the passage - as opposed to bumbling through incorrect movements. This was something I really hadn't been able to do, due to my stress and temper.

Keep it coming m1469, and happy practice.

[ted]

I keep a book and pen near the piano for this purpose. I seriously doubt the point of posting its contents here though, as those to do with improvisation are too personal to be relevant, and those to do with playing are trivial.

The last entry read:

"Play more detached in opening of Carolina Shout."
"Use speech rhythm in cell transition of B/Bbm - F#m/C#m motif."
"Remember the spider at the Eb minor change"
"Centre of gravity to outside fingers, left-hand, for second finger issue."

All wonderfully significant to me and perfectly useless to anybody else.

Your idea is a good one, however, provided the material is sufficiently general and communicable.

[m1469]

All wonderfully significant to me and perfectly useless to anybody else.

Well, actually, it is helpful to me.  Just maybe not in any way that somebody would suspect.  It seems this often happens with me and you; you think something will not be helpful but it is to me.

Your idea is a good one, however, provided the material is sufficiently general and communicable.

For a certain kind of help, sure.  But again, what you have provided, which is fairly specific and personal to you, is helpful to me.  Another point, maybe having a place to put these kinds of things is a good reason for people to put some of what they are learning into words.  It's helpful for them and one really never knows whether somebody else might even find it helpful, too.


Thanks,
m1469

[asyncopated]

Here are some things I've learnt.

I was playing a chopin nocturn for my teacher yesterday, and have been playing it for months now.  Somehow it did't click yesterady (sometimes it does).  I kept trying to adjust the sound and because i was distracted, kept making mistakes.

After working on it, my teacher just said, it's a nocturn -- even when you play the forte, it's not a strong in your face forte, but a legato "light" (not weak) forte.  After that, i tried playing it again, and it started to click.  Touch and movement make a huge difference.   The value of an experience ear to hear and tell you how to "correct" the sound that you are producing is invaluable.  To play a piece well, not only do you have to generate the mood, but also, know how to produce the right sound for the mood. 

More on sound.  So much is based on subtleties.  I was playing another piece, a simple haydn sonata, and she was saying your main theme is fine but in the sub theme needs to be more contrast -- it needs to sound more innocent and child like.  After trying it for a while and listening to her play, I managed to get a more childlike sound.  Now I practice that section sounding, imagining a small girl, in a pink dress, with big eyes and a lollipop (this is true) -- the lengths we musicians go to.

One thing that strikes me is that I can't describe what I'm doing differently.  It's just subtle movments in the gestures as you are playing, what you have in your head, and in your ear.   How do you explain or communicate something like that?


 

[ted]

Really ? Right oh then ! I'll see what other gems I have written recently and post them too. Always pleased to be of assistance, even if I don't understand how. Prior to my making the effort in writing notes, I would often suddenly realise, during playing, that I had made a wonderful discovery the day before. The silly part was that, although I was aware a discovery had been made, and perhaps was able to recall one or two vague details, for example that it concerned the fourth finger of the right hand and had something to do with a D flat or a ninth chord, I could not remember which piece it was in or even if it was to do with improvisation and not in a piece at all.

It was a very peculiar and frustrating sensation. Usually I just sat there for several minutes, mentally running through all my repertoire and yesterday's improvisation until hopefully enlightenment came. However, often it didn't, and I had to trust that my memory would be triggered next time the same pianistic moment occurred.  

The large number of failures at recalling these things led me to keep the diary and pen on the piano.

[rimv2]

I think it could provide great insight if people post about what they feel they learned in each practice day.  Like a practice journal, but online so others can read it and learn from it, too.  So, it's kinda like a community blog then, I suppose (what if we could each have a blog for a practice journal as part of our membership here ?  ).  I am striving to put aside my obssessive need for better organization than what this single thread will provide. 

Please join in !

I will start :

Today, one of the most interesting and influencial things I learned was that inaccuracies in what seems like hand and finger coordination, can actually be caused by having another region of one's body being "fixed" or tense.  I read something along the lines of this in Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" and decided to train my thinking, with this in mind, as I was practicing.

So, as I was practicing a Rachmaninov prelude, Op 32 no 13, there was a jump and a chord-grab in my right hand that I was not able to get with consistency or great comfort.  I then decided to search my body with a kinesthetic sense to see if there was anywhere that was tense.  As it turned out, my left-hand lower back was tense.  So, I decided to relax those muscles and to my amazement, as soon as I did this and tried the movement once more, it was exactly as I would like it to be.  And I could repeat the movement over and over again (only 7 times  ) with the same success and confidence.

This opened up an entirely new avenue of thinking for me, which carried over into the rest of my practicing.

He mentioned that most pianists practice compensations -- in that they are practicing things that are necessary only because the quality of movement is poor.  This kind of hit home for me.



m1469

You used the word BLOG

Therefore I must kill you



Interesting info though

[m1469]

After working on it, my teacher just said, it's a nocturn -- even when you play the forte, it's not a strong in your face forte, but a legato "light" (not weak) forte..

ooooooo..... this reminds me of yet another realization I had during practice just within the last couple of days.  Prior to this realization, I had always felt as though dynamics were just a matter of making the same sound, but either louder or softer depending on what one wanted.  Sometimes people like to talk about "colouring" as though that is something slightly different than dynamics, but anyway, you get the idea.  The main thing this meant to me was that I was trying to press the same key(s)  but with either lighter or heavier touch, slower or faster velocity, but generally using the exact same physical approach (and inevitably, tension was a result).   I was never satisfied with what I was producing, not even once (if I ever was I certainly don't remember it).

BUT, my realization was that when I am playing something quieter, it is not just the same thing I had been playing but "softer" or with less velocity.  It is, in fact, an entirely different sound, requiring its own unique movement to produce.  Not the same movement but with a touch of nuance, but its very own movement.  This does feel difficult to convey in words.

What this meant to me was more control (and consequently, *much* more freedom) and a clearer concept of what it was that I was trying to produce, and as a result, I was *much* more satisfied and accurate in my portrayal of a quieter sound than I had ever been in my entire life before that.  I feel like I have had this realization before... like de ja vu, but anyway, now I hope it sticks around .


m1469

[zheer]

.  Sometimes people like to talk about "colouring" as though that is something slightly different than dynamics, but anyway, you get the idea. 

 Think of it this way, if use a blue colouring-in pen, with this same pen you can creat a variety of different shades of blue, depending on the force you use plus the volocity of use, also depending on the colour of the paper underneath. The same applies to music various factors realting to touch,the variety of shades between loud and soft,tempo,pedal, plus harmony,for instance one can blend  harmony , anyway the more one listen's to very young beginers and more advanced students the more one appreciates this variety. BTW this also depends on what piano you play, on a concert grand stainway, waw much can be done.

[m1469]

Think of it this way, if use a blue colouring-in pen, with this same pen you can creat a variety of different shades of blue, depending on the force you use plus the volocity of use, also depending on the colour of the paper underneath. The same applies to music various factors realting to touch,the variety of shades between loud and soft,tempo,pedal, plus harmony,for instance one can blend  harmony , anyway the more one listen's to very young beginers and more advanced students the more one appreciates this variety. BTW this also depends on what piano you play, on a concert grand stainway, waw much can be done.

Thanks, zheer.  I do actually understand the concept, I am just presently not so certain it is what it may seem to be.  I have some reading I need to do :

The Physics of Sound by Richard E. Berg/David G. Stork -- just a book I have manage to accumulate

On the Sensations of Tone by Hermann Helmholtz  -- recommended reading, on loan from the library


aye ya ... so much to do, so little time 


m1469

[loops]

I'm happy to blog my thoughts!!!!

In my latest lesson yesterday,
1)the first variation of a theme written by a friend of mine that I'm "perfecting" for his imminent visit
completely fell apart for no apparent reason. As usual I was rushing it (there's no
logical reason why I should feel pressured in my lesson but logic doesn't yet enter into
my performance skills) Anyway we decided to change the articulation and my assignment
was to really overdo it, totally overblow it; I'm good at p, pp and ppp but not so hot at f, ff and fff.
So I asked him for a loud obnoxious piece to be really ffff . I'm sure I can do it but I'm a girl born several decades ago and  therefore trained from birth to be quiet and self-effacing so I have to consciously overcome it (my friends might laugh at that .. I'm a tiny bit like that black female character on the movie Police Academy who's really self-effacing and then gets out the megaphone)
2)practiced heavy swinging arms in scales, which was fun

Later that night, I somehow managed to put the various thoughts together. Some parts of
my variation were with arms swinging but weighted with clay, some were with arms like water and some
like buttlerflies; I still have to practice it to smooth it off but: it was really FUN
And my ffff piece is really FFFFFFFF

[asyncopated]

BUT, my realization was that when I am playing something quieter, it is not just the same thing I had been playing but "softer" or with less velocity.  It is, in fact, an entirely different sound, requiring its own unique movement to produce.  Not the same movement but with a touch of nuance, but its very own movement.  This does feel difficult to convey in words.

You put it very eloquently.  It is difficult to describe. 

One more important that I would like to highlight here is context.   I personally find it very difficult to make one type or sound -- say pp sweet, or pp mysterioso, pp cantibile --   without being given a framework... that is a piece of music to work on, where you need to produce a particular type of sound.

Practicing dexterity can be done quite easily out of context, but practicing scales to make a sound like a harp is a different ball game altogether for me .   I try as soon as is  possible (when i know more or less where everything goes) to not just practice notes in a piece, but the rather treat things more wholistic -- where I practice the movment, touch and emotions required for the piece.

[pianogeek_cz]

What I learned during practice today:

I guess that today wasn't really a breakthrough day. I learned (or, rather, re-learned) that pauses are essential for concentration. I always tend to forget it right as I get fresh sheets out of the printer and nearly sommersault down the stairs to the piano.  (It was the 2-part invention in a minor. I'm Baching away these days... Had a HUGE gap there until May, and since then, my practice is focused around Bach. I hope to have some 8-10 2-parts, 4-6 3-parts and possibly a P&F or two by February...

Plus I did Czerny. I'm a bit with Debussy Symbolism on this issue - it -does- help. Since I'm currently at the start of the long learning run "How to achieve that golden sound", the 125 passage excercises are a greeeaaaat help.

Scales and arpeggios are also great for that. Legato, staccato, non legato, pp, p, mf, f, ff... all combinations. I used not to care about scales... What an ignorant I was. I think that the usefulness of Czerny and scales is one of the more important lessons that I learned since I got a new teacher last Wednesday... (She's -GREAT-. Yay!  )

And, as a treatsie, I worked on the so popular and overplayed, yet immesurably beautiful Rachmaninoff g minor prelude. 

Appassionata has to wait... 

[asyncopated]

Plus I did Czerny. I'm a bit with Debussy Symbolism on this issue - it -does- help. Since I'm currently at the start of the long learning run "How to achieve that golden sound", the 125 passage excercises are a greeeaaaat help.

I'm still not quite sure about Cerny.  Here is my gripe about this -- if one is practicing sound, or rather mood of a piece, especially in light baroque/classical period pieces, these exercises are basically too short.  They don't contain enough content to tell a story.  It's for this reason that i am not too found of these exercises -- it seems to much effort to get into the right frame of mind, just to play 8 bars.  And it's a waste to play 8 bars just for the sake of playing them.

However, I am currently playing some of haydn's early sonatas.  I think that if you goal is to "achieve that goldern sound"  -- and an admirable goal it is, these are a good place to start and i recommend them. They play a similar function to czerny.  The writing is typically early classical period, pretty simple progression and not too many unexpected twists and turns.   However, they are entire sonatas.  Which means, that despite the simplicity in it's technical construction, they do aim to tell a tale and have basically the full structure of a sonata (in the original sense, rather that the rather extended beethoven sense).  Also, the full weight of expression in the classical context comes to bear -- a beautiful sound simply isn't enough, one is also required to emote and narrate.

Of course at the end of the day, perhaps it just boils down to tastes, what you prefer to do for practice. 

Just my thoughts.

[asyncopated]

oops

[pianogeek_cz]

Thanks for your thoughts, asyncopated. I won't be staying long with Czerny for sure, he is supposed to help me just with the motorics of achieving the sound. I'm currently concerned with the sound of one and each note itself and what movements are needed to achieve this. (Or, better, be able to achieve the sound, regardless of the technical pattern.) I expect I'll be finished with Czerny (at least the short excercises) within a month, at most two. The point is - they actually -do- isolate some often-occurring patterns, at least (as you said) in Haydn, and Bach and Mozart too, and having a head start of Czerny patterns comfortably under my fingers before moving on to Haydn sonatas and Mozart concertos and such will prove very helpful indeed.

As to "telling a tale" - why couldn't four bars tell a tale? The damn well do if you can find it.

Off to Bach.

[asyncopated]

As to "telling a tale" - why couldn't four bars tell a tale?

Four bars is a sentence, not a story.  You can communicate small things with 4 bars, like

I'm going to play the piano.
or
These four bars are foobar.

But you can't really tell a story, not unless you're german.  In which case, maybe having one sentence does work .

[ted]

Here are my last notes:

Elementary sections are creatively and technically superior to preconceived long structures.

Musically, this implies the obvious truth that more interesting phrases can be made from combining small sections than originate from a priori large structures, for example full scales.

Technically, this means a relaxed approach at all times using thumb-over. Slow down if required.

Only a light touch is necessary to fully state a vital rhythm.

Microsleeps greatly enhance rhythm and cell transition, and are less tiring than trotty continuity; therefore use them.

Curve fingers where possible and use hand movement rather than reaching with the fingers during Crowley cells.

Do not be afraid to use very simple cells; their effect is usually superior to that of meandering.

Separate groups with microsleeps to avoid left hand problems.

Do not hesitate to play anywhere with either hand.

Had enough yet ? The whole trouble with me is that I learn too many things each day, get too many ideas and don't know which ones to forget about.

[m1469]

Had enough yet ? The whole trouble with me is that I learn too many things each day, get too many ideas and don't know which ones to forget about.

Ted, Ted, Ted.  Have I had enough yet ?  Never  .   Just include what you wish to include, simple as that .

Actually, it seems that everything you have down here is quite interesting and worth exploring.  I don't understand some of it in that sense that I don't have the context.  But, I would be interested in learning more. 

For example, what are the "cells" that you are talking about ?  Does this have to do with algorithmic music ?


Thanks,
m1469

[m1469]

Yesterday, I was seeing for myself something that I have recently read and have been told ;  Fingerings imply motion (something along those lines).  And also, they hint at the position of the hand.

While practicing Chopin's prelude in Bb minor, Op 28 no 16, I was working the LH figures in the last couple of lines.  I have two editions that I am referring to; Schirmer (which is the score I am actually reading from) and then a Wiener Urtext, which is on loan to me.  In exploring what motions and subsequent fingerings would enable me to easily render the passage, I found that using a certain hand position helped me most.  The fingering in the Schirmer edition was different than the one I had found on my own.  So, I referred to the "urtext" (though, aren't urtext editions not even supposed to contain fingerings ?).

In the urtext edition, they suggested the fingering I had discovered on my own.  However, this fingering would be impossible if I were trying to organize my playing apparatus in a different position as Schirmer is obviously suggesting.  Likewise, the fingering Schirmer suggested would be impossible from the playing position I had decided on (and as Weiner is apparently recommending).

This example gave me a clear insight into why certain fingerings are chosen and how they indicate a somewhat specific technique/movement/hand position in rendering the passage.

My other major thought from yesterday is also along the lines of something I have recently been told.  But as I heard it in my head : The most difficult part of piano playing is rendering the motion to match the musical passage ... but along with that, I realized that this does not *need* to be difficult at all -- or at least not as difficult as I have felt it is sometimes (we'll see how this goes over time).  I feel, now, that it is merely a matter of how limited or not one is in percieving how to approach the instrument; how imaginative one is, within certain basic structures (like proper anatomical posture).

With these thoughts came a 20/20 hindsight-vision of how limited I have been in my perceptions of how to approach playing in general as well as rendering musical movements at the instrument.  I feel dumbfounded at how much time I have spent in the past, practicing from this state just hoping that if I spent enough time going over the notes that something would finally click for me.

I also realize how much I truly love practicing when I am "getting it" or at least on some path to it, and how much I loathe practicing when I feel as though I am not "getting it" or off on some kind of stray path altogether.



m1469



ps-  reading Bernhard is important 

[pianogeek_cz]

ps-  reading Bernhard is important 

Learned that looooong ago. 

Today, I think I've discovered one key feature to Bach: separating voices based on dynamics and how to build the dynamics in the piece (3-part invention no. 13, a minor). Not that I wouldn't -know- about it before, but today it somehow clicked.

I was slightly nervous about the fact that the Rach didn't sound as it should, although I did devote quite some time to it yesterday and today morning, but it was actually the instrument - when I was over at my pianist friend's house for a chat over piano playing (you can't call that a lesson, really...) and played it for him, it sounded just as it should. That means I'll be going to the Petrof piano salon sometime soon to test the upright. Hopefully one of the better ones ends up as my Christmas present... 

This thread is great. It forces me to really think about what I achieved, and when I manage to come up with something, it feels good. 

[ted]

m1469:

No, it has to do with form in improvisation. Just meandering at random, waffling or noodling, as various people call it, clearly does not hold my interest. On the other hand, improvising to imitate composition and preconceived structures, although highly skilled, doesn't do much for me much either.

After hearing Jarrett, some years ago, I realised that the best way might be to use new improvisational forms. They wouldn't be forms in the sense of structures you thought of in advance, so what could they be ? It seemed to me that the use of some arbitrary rule (guideline rather than rule) at the immediate, momentary level, necessarily resulted in organic form at the macroscopic level; rather like the very simple recursive rule of calculation produces the colossal and beautiful form of a chaotic image such as the Mandelbrot set.

It took me some years to realise that this was exactly what Jarrett was doing in his solo concerts. To put it more simply, instead of beginning with the finished structure and filling it in, free improvisation starts with bits of simple musical material and one or two generating rules, and just lets it operate to produce an end result. The product must have organic form because it cannot do anything else. The unpredictability and surprise of the outcome of improvisational form is a constant delight, but form there is.

A cell transition is just one type of generating rule I concocted for my own purposes - although again, I am most reluctant to use the word "rule" at all, because it conveys the idea of something fixed or rigid. Improvisational "rules" are not rules in this sense at all.

The nub of the matter is that I believe compositional form and improvisational form to be entirely different things.

[m1469]

Learned that looooong ago. 

Oh, hee hee, me too.  I realize how it sounded for me to put it on what I learned for the day, that's not how I meant it  .  It was just a way to give some credit where credit was due .

[m1469]

One more important that I would like to highlight here is context. 

hmmm.... I have been thinking.  I appreciate your thoughts and I completey agree.   I am currently floating off, perhaps unfortunately, in some parallel universe seeking the context of a lot of things now.  I have some big questions brewing  .


m1469

[m1469]

Well, this one is more along the lines of how to approach practising in general.  I have for the past while been working to implement suggestions I have gathered from Bernhard's posts regarding how to practice. 

I have found that I can only manage so much information at once -- along with this, I have very recently become aware of a mechanism within my consciousness that seems to make a mental note regarding a subject, but then immediately tucks it away until I have figured more pressing matters out (which is exactly what I have to do with the info you have provided me in response to my questions, Ted -- though I am quite interested).  My subconscious must be just swimming with things !! Yeah, I just checked in with it and it definitely is ... *doesn't want to touch that*  hmmmm... I could spend some time on this subject itself, but I think I will move along.

Anyway, when I first started taking chunks of passages from pieces to work on in 20 minute sessions, I could not gather my thoughts enough to sit down and really plan out what I was going to work on for the following day because most everything about my change in practice routine was really quite new to me.  It was a very different way of approaching the music and a very different way of thinking about practicing in general, and also I felt I had no idea how long a particular section would take me to learn.  And at that point in time, the task of trying to figure it all out before I played the piece seemed entirely insurmountable to me.

When I first started practising in 20 minute sessions, since I felt overwhelmed by the prospects of needing to plan ahead, I decided to just jump in head first (kinda haphazardly) and just start figuring out what I could accomplish in such and such amount of time.  I suppose that work has paid off as yesterday, for the first time ever, I sat down and figured out exactly what I was going to practice in each piece that I did today and to my surprise, I was very accurate in my planning.  I think that other people could probably do a much better job of making these changes than I have, but how much should I let that bother me ?  Doing the best I can with what I've got.

I noticed that this planning ahead gave me even more focus and direction in my studies for a number of reasons.  And I will plan to do this again for tomorrow's practice day.  I also caught a glimpse that the more I can do this, the more confident I feel in my ability to learn pieces and the more pieces I feel I can take on at once.

Other than this, I feel like I have a really, really, really (etc. x infinity) long road ahead of me.


m1469

[asyncopated]

Bach is beautiful, so is chopin.

[m1469]

Knowledge is fragile; it never stays in one place.

It's funny, I feel like I had been having all of these realizations and turn arounds with my playing, and suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, I feel as though I know nothing and my motivation is killed.

In the midst of it all, there exists some kind of rock that has never been there before (or that I have never seen before).   I suppose sometimes one must fight for it all.

Realization of the day :

Sometimes one must fight, and hindsight tells me that I will probably find it as having been worth the fight.


m1469

[ted]

m1469, don't fall into the Achilles/tortoise trap of imposing an arbitrary serial structure on learning processes. That is to say, "Before I can do X I must study Y; before I can master Y I must learn Z; ......." What happens is that you never learn anything because you never start.

I am very sceptical of serial learning methods. I don't think our minds operate along one-dimensional lines. I think they latch onto thousands of isolated ideas first and make connections between them afterwards, sort of forming one huge, complicated, ever-expanding spider's web.  I think any creative process has to be woolly, open-ended and permissive of random input and change of hypothesis. It's much the same reason I don't believe in universal rules and theories of music. As soon as you feel everything is sewn up that's exactly when it usually falls apart and creativity is instantly dead in the water.

Guidelines, certainly; we have to have some guidelines for ourselves about learning from practice (or in my case by playing). However, it seems to me that they are better, beyond a certain healthy limit, if they lack precision and that many ideas are profitably consigned to the unconscious to incubate.   

[m1469]

Ted, thank you very much for your wonderful post.  I suppose I can see that I have this desire in me to tuck everything away, everything about life even, into something that makes sense to me.  I find that odd to a degree, considering I also *love* vast, huge ideas that have no apparent end.  I love creativity itself. 

But, not understanding ______ (insert whatever is of great interest to me at the time, sometimes just life in general) has been really hard for me sometimes.  It's like my mind occasionally wants to wind into the outter reaches of everything just looking for things that make sense to me.  Over the years I have tried to calm this tendency down a bit as I think it might actually drive me insane if I don't keep it in check.

ANYWAY, I suppose what I am thinking now is that with all of the pragmatic approaches to practising and teaching (since what I have been feeling has to do with teaching, too), there still has to be intuition -- and perhaps in the end, intuition is actually what it all comes down to -- but there can be structure for the intution/creativity to move in. 

That's the only thing that makes any sense to me right now .


Thanks again,
m1469

[asyncopated]

It's funny, I feel like I had been having all of these realizations and turn arounds with my playing, and suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, I feel as though I know nothing and my motivation is killed.

Hmm... I just had a lesson a couple of days ago, and felt like that after the lesson.  However, after more pondering, i started to realised it may have been one of the more important lessons -- for me to try to move to the next stage.

I've been learning a bach two part invention for two weeks now -- no. 15, and as of two days ago have gotten hardly anywhere.  I've also been playing a chopin nocturn for ages and that seems to be meandering between completely inspiring to "it's a nocturn?  I thought that you were playing guns and roses." depending on what seems like completely random factors, like which side of the bed I got up on, which way the wind is blowing, how may cows there are in london, etc...  And it so happened that on that day, fate conspired to be unkind again, and the nocturn didn't come out quite right.

Anyway, the lesson consisted of some amount of playing the piano, but also a long chat.

Feeling slightly dejected, I went to sing in the evening.  I was just sitting in with a new choir, and they hand lots of repetoir going already.  A couple of bach, a motet and a cantata, some handel dixit dominus, brahms, conelius and the like.

I sort of didn't have very much time to think about notes and stuff and just start to sing what i saw on the page, getting my cue from the tenors around me when I was lost.  Somehow things seemed easy.  So it was a day fraught with musical contrats. 

Thinking back on the discussions I had with my teacher, she said a number of things that really struck me. 

The first is that when I learn i need to give meaning to the notes.  I've learn't other 2 part inventions before.  The last one was easier.  I realised that when I start learning a piece, I usually do it passively.  I repeat a set of notes or a phrase a number of times and after a while expect it to diffuse into my subconsions, so that when I play it each time it gets easier. 

After thinking about it, I'm starting to wonder if that's a good way for me to learn.   I think what my teacher was talking about is active learning.  So, today I went i started learning the piece from scretch, this time trying to understand the patterns in the piece, and remembering how each of the patterns go, and what they do (major or minor, how it relates to the previous time the pattern occured etc.)  Also I paid more attention to shapes of phrases and what each of the voices where trying to do, first taking each pharse hands separate and after that hands together. 

Somehow this method clicked just after 1 hour. The two weeks prior to this were something of a waste of time.  At the end of the hour I could play through 3/4s of the piece with a reasonable amout of expression.  So I'm going to from now on, actively learn notes to all new pieces, by trying to figure out as I learn what the notes mean.  I think it works better for me.

The second thing i learnt was with the chopin.  I realised why I keep stumbling is that after working on the piece for so long, I was still worried about notes and details, more than i was worried about the music -- I kept thinking, how is the next note going to sound?  Am I going hit the key in the right way? 

So the think that I learnt is that at a certain stage of practice, one has to in a sense let go and allow the music to take over.  So that what one is  preoccupied with is the music and not individaul details in the piece.   Perhaps, that's why I found it easy to sight sing choral repetoir in the evening -- believe me bach and brahm are not particularly easy to sing, let alone sight sing.   I realised I was not really worried about each note, but trying to grab phrases and sounding consistent within each phrase. 

So, that is a second of my goals -- after I taking care of details, such as touch and dynamics, to move as quickly as possible to a higher level of musical consiousness, where the thing that is important is mood and musicality, and to do this actively (conciously).

Hopefully this will speed up the learning process, and overall make a better musician out of me.

comments/suggestions are welcomed, if you haven't yet fallen asleep from reading my post.

[m1469]

I just woke up from reading your post... hee hee... it's a joke, I am still sleeping  (it's another joke).

Okay, so the thing is, I don't mind my mind being blown, I kinda enjoy it actually, so long as I don't just float off into the universe after it and never come back.

Anyway, when I was reading your post, which I am quite thrilled you posted btw, I caught a glimpse of where I need to go next.  I have been slowly getting there all day and since yesterday (following my mind being blown  ) but you put it into words for me.  Or something.  At least what you said resonates with me.

Here is a thing.  There is this place in me that is really, really, really far but super close at the same time... and it's where all my hopes as an artist and a living being exist (heck, maybe it's where I live).  And sometimes, it seems like somebody sees it in me, like the universe has a mind and sees it, and that is the most amazing feeling.  And, along with that, sometimes it seems like that person in me is not forgotten and has a purpose.

What's the point of me writing this ?  I don't know.  I guess I will just wake up tomorrow, think about what you have said in your post, and try to get better.  I am hungry for it.

Thanks,
m1469

[asyncopated]

Hi m1469,  thanks for sharing. 

I don't work in music, but even so, sometimes I feel as if all my thoughts and emotions are hanging on display when I play the piano.    Whether one finally becomes a professional musician or not, performing or sharing your music with other people is a major part of musicality, and it's quite a scary feeling.  On the other hand, that's exactly what one is aiming for as an artist, be able to convey, and expression raw emotion through music.

This is perhaps why I love music so much -- that there is not just black and white, happy or sad, but pieces can have tinges and shades of emotion that cannot simply be described in words.

Sometimes (actually, a lot of the time) i find that I'm become very self consious when i'm playing.  If I'm alone, things tend to be much easier, as soon as there is someone else in the room i get distracted easily.  We had a discussion about this as well, my teacher and i.  She gave what I think is a very good way to handle this.  She told me that I have to concentrate so hard on the music  that nothing else matters.  At the end of the day it's a matter of willing yourself into a state where only expressing the music matters and everthing else wilts away. 

[m1469]

I had this realization post-practice (at least consciously), however, it has to do with practice in the greater sense of the word.

I realized that by choosing to be disciplined, by making practising everyday a priority (especially two instruments), by deciding to work towards performing, by living my life around this priority, I am making a life-style choice.   By choosing this life-style there are things that I am choosing not to do.  And, I realized, I believe I am okay with this.  I think this is where I have been trying to get to.


m1469

[asyncopated]

I had this realization post-practice (at least consciously), however, it has to do with practice in the greater sense of the word.

I realized that by choosing to be disciplined, by making practising everyday a priority (especially two instruments), by deciding to work towards performing, by living my life around this priority, I am making a life-style choice.   By choosing this life-style there are things that I am choosing not to do.  And, I realized, I believe I am okay with this.  I think this is where I have been trying to get to.


m1469

Nice to hear that you've found your way.  All the best!

[netzow]

What I leaned during practice today (I hope this apply's) was, that when you are searching for notes while playing you should not slow down or pause and you should not continue to play through missing notes. I constantly need to re-learn this. Instead of doing any of the above mentioned things I should Segment the section up and work on the little sections that I search for notes and or have problems with.

[m1469]

This is more general, but I thought it applied and decided to post it.  I have realized that no matter what, the things I want to do with music are going to take time, effort, discipline and commitment. 

I know it seems obvious, but sometimes it's not actually as obvious to me as one would think.  Sometimes I fall under this impression that if I am truly talented, it shouldn't *really* take all of the above, and if it is taking that, then I must not be talented.  It's like I have been thinking that all I should need to do is *think* I want to do things, and that *should* be enough IF I were truly a musician -- as though that's all it takes/has taken for the people I look up to .  It's difficult to explain.  But, I realize that everybody -- including all of the "Greats" -- had to have some form of the above to achieve what they achieved -- there's just no way around it  .

To slim it down a bit, I see more of what it's really going to take for me to do these "things" -- talent or not (kind of besides the point for me now, I guess).

[opus10no2]

Quite, even the greatest seed of potential needs the right watering.

[m1469]

Here's something else I have learned :

I can't lose what was never there in the first place.

[opus10no2]

It's great when people are vague and enigmatic, it really makes you *think* for yourself.

[counterpoint]

What I've learned today:

I have extreme problems with playing pp in Brahms' op.116 no.5
It's a slow piece, there's enough time to prepare each chord, but nevertheless, the sound is always too hard and direct. I thought, my fingers and arms were very relaxed, but it seems, that they are not relaxed enough. And I can't move my arms slow enough.

[amelialw]

here's what I learnt yesterday
For my Chopin Etude Op.10 No.8, always have curved fingers in order to get that certain touch and to play fast
For my Chopin Etude Op.10 No.8, I have to train my hands such that they are able to play the piece with full-speed and accuracy without my hands getting tired at the 1st shot.
For my Bach, accuracy is the key, everything has to be played with perfection and accuracy before it can be played well fast.
For my Haydn, always think about the piece and every detail before I start and in result you get perfectly balanced and played piece.
For my Beethoven, always think dramatic, that's why all the sf's and fz's , fp's are for. every little detail must be paid attention to.
For my Rachmaninoff, a beautiful and romantic tone is what has to be achieved at the beginning and this has to be sustained. 2nd page all the jumps and leaps must be accurate to score perfection. work especially on the last page.

[electrodoc]

Tonight:

Worked on Beethoven Op2 No2. Have not played it for three days. When I last played, it was under good control but only at about half speed (crotchet = 72). Any faster and the scale runs became uneven. Tonight there was no problem in getting up to 100.

Conclusion: if a work is causing some difficulty after putting some effort into it then leave for a day or two to get into the sub-sconscious and it will probably become a little easier.

[electrodoc]

This is more general, but I thought it applied and decided to post it.  I have realized that no matter what, the things I want to do with music are going to take time, effort, discipline and commitment. 

I know it seems obvious, but sometimes it's not actually as obvious to me as one would think.  Sometimes I fall under this impression that if I am truly talented, it shouldn't *really* take all of the above, and if it is taking that, then I must not be talented.  It's like I have been thinking that all I should need to do is *think* I want to do things, and that *should* be enough IF I were truly a musician -- as though that's all it takes/has taken for the people I look up to .  It's difficult to explain.  But, I realize that everybody -- including all of the "Greats" -- had to have some form of the above to achieve what they achieved -- there's just no way around it  .
"This is more general, but I thought it applied and decided to post it.  I have realized that no matter what, the things I want to do with music are going to take time, effort, discipline and commitment. 

I know it seems obvious, but sometimes it's not actually as obvious to me as one would think.  Sometimes I fall under this impression that if I am truly talented, it shouldn't *really* take all of the above, and if it is taking that, then I must not be talented.  It's like I have been thinking that all I should need to do is *think* I want to do things, and that *should* be enough IF I were truly a musician -- as though that's all it takes/has taken for the people I look up to .  It's difficult to explain.  But, I realize that everybody -- including all of the "Greats" -- had to have some form of the above to achieve what they achieved -- there's just no way around it  ." (How do you get a quote to come up in blue?)


I don't know whether this is the best place to post this but I was watching Channel 5 last night on Child Genius. The subject was Marc Yu - the sensational 7 year old pianist.Summarising: scientific study suggests that when the baby is born the brain has inumerable neuron connections. As the infant develops many of these connections are broken if they are unused. Marc was exposed to music even before he was born and displayed musical talent at a very early age (2years).

It seems reasonalbe to conclude that when learning any musical work that the brain has to build new neural connections to correspond with every muscular action and every nuance of playing. For children these connections may already be there and hence children learn faster than adults. The older one gets, the more time it takes for such connections to build. Thus, for most post teenagers (possibly after about 15 years old) more time is needed for the musical work to get into to brain. Hence, no matter how much talent one may have it will take time for a work to truly get into the system and remain there.

It is interesting to note that when children memorize music they will usually be able to play these pieces many years later with very little re-learning. When an adult memorises it is quickly lost again if the work is not frequently performed. (OK, so re-learning is not so difficult but the core problem remains). This is possibly due to the fact that the neural connections in the brain of the child become 'hard-wired' whereas in the adult they are far more easily dissolved again.

Food for though!

[amelialw]

that's interesting and I don't mean to brag. But maybe the reason why after just 3 years of great training under my present teacher after 9 years of bad training from the previous teacher , I've caught up so quickly to many other of my age. My mom used to lead my church choir last time when we were still back in singapore and she said I started singing before I was even 1 and I started keyboard lesson when I was 3 followed by piano when I was 7. Besides that, I seem to absorb and learn things quickly despite the fact that i'm not that young anymore.

Yes, It does take alot of effort work and commitment though, no matter what.

[shingo]

Something I have found hard is the difference between playing and practicing. It is easy to sit there and do 15 minutes work and then play for the rest of the time. So I am gradually learning to concentrate and work for longer and longer and have more rewarding pratice sessions, and if i wan't to play stuff after, play then. Splitting up my practice time to half an hour blocks with 10 minutes rest and reflection in bewteen seem to ensure the time spent was spent well.  Afterall it is called 'Piano Practice'

[m1469]

I am not going to always know everything there is to know about a musical work and composer.  I am not going to always have done *every* little thing I could to prepare for a performance (at least, in hindsight it seems I always think of something I can do better next time -- at this point in my life).  I am not always going to make the right decisions, and as a matter of fact, sometimes I will just make the wrong ones.  I will not always have courage.  I will not always be able to defend myself.  I will not always know what to say and what to do.  There are a lot of things that I will have to settle for developing over time and with maturity.  Sometimes I will be embarrassed and feel like a fool.  Sometimes people may laugh at me.  Some people will tell me that I have no business doing what I think I want to do, and they will try to tell me all the reasons why. 

But, none of this means that I cannot trust myself and that I have no place in the world of music and piano.  I am okay with learning as I grow; I will find a way to cope with falling short. 

Whatever is in me that needs to come out, and at least I know it's there, I will just work to give it a path -- maybe that's good enough for now.

[pianogeek_cz]

I learned, today and yesterday, that with the temperatures soaring as they are, there's no way to do serious practice without half the brain evaporating. 

temperature = 1/(e^concentration)

Whew. *wipes sweat off forehead*

[m1469]

Our personal comfort with music and piano is our own yellow brick road -- follow it.  Our individuality in playing the piano is on our own yellow brick road -- follow it.

[m1469]

The concept of earth is something like the concept of a kindergarten and life is so much more than earth -- where am I right now ?  Somewhere very far and wide, or close and narrow -- I don't know.  I am not scared.  I just need you to know.  And, I know that you can see me.

I am here to make myself known to whomever/whatever I am to be known to.  I have needs, and I need help.  The right person, the right circumstances will see what those needs are, and they will know how to help me.  It may come in the form of a voice inside of myself -- that is fine -- however, I will not outline how I am to become aware of you.  I am simply here to make myself known.  I will be seen only by those who are meant to see me -- nobody else can see me.

Everything is passing by me, all at once.  I am just in some observation place -- I could reach out and touch things, it seems, but I don't want to.  I just want to look -- and, I am grateful.  I am fully enveloped in this stratosphere, and though it is dark, there are twinkling lights everywhere around me for as far as I can see and comprehend -- I am standing on a light.

Distance is skewed, as it seems the difference between far and close is non-existent.

[m1469]

shut up m1469