Alarm - Amerika Going to the Fascists

[m]

God, it's 11:56 pm here in NYC.  For the past three hours -- prior to lecturing poor, dear pianistimo -- I've been wrestling with that damned arpeggiated thing that ushers in the development of the Rach 2.  You know, those 16th notes in the right hand against that stupid triplet in the left?  Do pianists fake those two bars?  Please let me know if you do.  I'm going nuts here.
 

It's been quite awhile since I played that one--I was a student, so no faking was alowed then .

If you want I can show you fakings in the 3rd... well not faking, but lets call it... hmmm... re-distribution of priorities for the same effect

[m1469]

merik

[m]

merik

You mean Amarika?

[cmg]

It's been quite awhile since I played that one--I was a student, so no faking was alowed then .

If you want I can show you fakings in the 3rd... well not faking, but lets call it... hmmm... re-distribution of priorities for the same effect

You know, Marik  (sorry, I misspelled your screen-name earlier), I had this great teacher, and I mean GREAT teacher, Herman Godes. He died just last year at the age of 90.  He was Latvian. The night his life was robbed from him was a Gilels recital in Riga.  He, his mother and father (both professional musicians) returned home to find the Nazis ransacking their home.  He never saw his parents again after that night.  He survived the camps and after liberation went to Paris.  He auditioned for Gieseking, who was trying to rehabilitate his reputation after Nazi-sympathizer allegations and seeking brilliant Jewish artists, and became his student.  Then, Casadesus.  Then, he came to America with a Columbia Artists contract.  The contract killed his career, but he was a great teacher and one of my dearest friends.  A father, really.

You speak about music like Herman did.  I'd greatly appreciate your ideas on Rach 2 and 3.  Russian ideas!  Herman had many of them.  What I know of Chopin is so Russian!  I value that heritage so much.

Herman played all the great concerti and solo repertoire. He was one of the finest pianists I've ever heard.  A tone like Arrau's.  Incredible phrasing.  I have a wonderful tape of his Rach 3 done on German radio after World War II.  His playing is magnificent. And he always said to me, slyly, "Well, you know, there are tricks . . .  but honest tricks. Composers don't always know what they mean."  

Anything you could pass on from that great Russian tradition I would appreciate.

Thanks.    

[m1469]

You mean Amarika?

perhaps 

[prongated]

in australia - the president there held a moratorium for soccer? players to not go to africa to play against mugabi's team because of how dictators run things.

...pianistimo! Are you an American? Seriously?

...Mr Rudd for PM, and hopefully he'll take a stance tougher than a puppet when it comes to this bilateral relation...we DON'T have a PRESIDENT, and the 'moratorium' is for CRICKET, not soccer!

You constantly assert that you "know" the truth of things.  You know nothing but what you're told.  You are thoroughly programmed.  Ironically, you are a common victim of cultural/religious conditioning.  You're what the Nazis and the Khmer Rouge counted on.  But because you "believe" in God and Christ, you think you are immune.  You think atrocities only occured in godless countries.  Think again.  Germany. Russia.  Amerika.  You are the poster girl for the new fascist movement.  Not only are you oblivious, you are actually proud.  Amazing.  Hubris.  You embody this Greek concept, despite your supposed piety and humility. 

...you are right. Fascism is, I suppose, the kind of direction theocracy will be. Nonetheless I don't think she knows nothing apart from what she's told...

...I think Christians who are afraid to leave their paradigm and look at others' universe and "truth" (despite calls by others to do so) are either unintelligent or afraid that they'll stop believing in Christianity altogether...

[mephisto]

I basically was saying, and repeat it again--the situation is not as simple as that and each individual case needs and HAS to be seen only in its specific context.

As for the "New Historians", not ones both Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe were accused in fabricating their sources and making up historical events in order to pass their own agendas.
I am not familiar with Avi Shlaim's work. 

Have you read their works?

Of course they have been accused of fabricating sources. Their version of the story interferes with the zonist one. But how is it possible that these new historians all came to the same conclusions when the IDF archives were opened? ( and it isn't as if these people really knew eachother very well).

Shlomo Ben-Ami writes the same in his book Scars of War Wounds of Peace : The Israeli - Arab Tragady.

Btw, Benny Morris is NOT pro-palestinian. Read this interview if you are interested:

https://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm

[prometheus]

I don't think debating that person has any value because this person obviously must be very ignorant. His argument is that because there are still Palestinians in Israel, none of them even fleed their land during the war.


The right of return is one of the biggest issues in the whole problem.
Palestinian refugees are all over the place. Remember all those wars against Lebanon?

[mephisto]

I don't think debating that person has any value because this person obviously must be very ignorant. His argument is that because there are still Palestinians in Israel, none of them even fleed their land during the war.

Who is "that person"?

[pianistimo]

i am very interested in what people say about giesking.  i don't have a problem with any particular peoples - but fascist leaders - yes!  perspective?  how about columbia university asking the IRANIAN PRESIDENT (who has said he will wipe israel off the map - and wants the same for the u.s.) to come and speak.  this is what i mean by perspective!  would anyone like him to speak and actually listen and applaud.  this is hypocrisy and no appreciation for the country you live in.  free speech within boundaries.  what if hitler had come to amerika to speak. is that what people want?  dictators to speak at universities.  they know nothing of free speech.  they are for dictatorship.

you may hate President Bush all you want - but i don't think that any of our freedoms came because we did NOTHING.  you have to actively go after dictators and terrorists.  people hate him because a war was started in iraq.  but, many terrorists were found to have connections that lived in iraq and trained in afghanistan.  i think that atrocities are committed on both sides in war - but this is a WAR.  i don't think that peace will come if terrorists have agendas to wipe israel and the usa off the map.  why are we letting this REAL FASCIST speak?  the iranian president needs to watch his back - because just about as many americans don't like what he says - as iranians what President Bush says. 

and who gives Columbia university the right to override the President?   do they wish war to break out here.  of course, it would be appropriate to start on their campus.   may his plans come to nothing.  God is great! 

[pianistimo]

if he is shot - he's taking the chance he'll be a martyr and that it will be reason for war with iran.  https://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDap0mFM5AWVqH5n9rOyjrPlJutg

btw, WHO IS UNINTELLIGENT?  THIS IS A UNIVERSITY, MY FRIENDS.  he wants to lay a wreath at ground zero of the twin towers and says 'THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED.'  he is NOT VERY BRIGHT.

and why is the UN allowing him to address them sept 23 in NYC?  is this what the UN stands for?  is this what NYC stands for?  NYC deserved what it got if this is intellectual prudency.  i find it sadly hilarioius that they will probably be the first ones to experience fascism because they are asking for it.  it's like asking a molester down the street to babysit.  sure JOIN THE UN.  what else is new?  why would they join.  because of OIL.  now who is complicit?  i think it's only a matter of time and we'll see who is really thinking here.  if mid-westerners are smarter than some east coasters - because they don't give anything about being 'well respected' - but rather care about common sense.

if giuliani allows this fascist dictator to visit ground zero  - he has lost his election.  of course, the presidency doesn't carry much weight when the UN is already taking over.  giuliani is well respected right now - but if he leans so far to the left, it will go from respect to extreme dislike.  iran and syria are the two countries that will not allow iraq to be free.  they want it now to be entirely designated for the purpose of weapon building.  how convenient.  of course, saddam hussein was already agreeable to that - despite his people being in the middle and having no choice.  that is how dictatorships operate.

the only way the us should allow anyone from iran to visit and express sympathy is if they are not openly antagonistic to the west.  i hope that giuliani will allow jewish and christian and non-christian patriotic protestors to stand around ground zero and defend the lives of innocent victims from the spit of a dictator.  his nose should be rubbed in the ashes, actually.

btw, in one of his speeches to the UN - he intimates that saddam's weapons of mass destruction were given to him by us!  strange?  especially after we eagerly searched to find them and they were obviously not ours.  why would we give our enemy WMD?  and WHY DID HE ADMIT THAT SADDAM HAD THEM.  WOW.  IS THAT STUPID?  that is illogical.  then - he goes and says - 'with all your intelligence gathering - why could you not stop 9/11.'  he doesn't say anything about terrorist methods which are based on suicide bombings and people who look innocent but have evil in their hearts.  how can you know if someone is going to stab you with a fork in prison? 

[prometheus]

Who is "that person"?

Marik.

[pianistimo]

the president of iran openly admits that saddam used wmd's on thousands of iraqis and they had chemical warheads.  many of his own people sufferred the consequences of this.  but, then in idiocy - the nation of iran starts supporting the building of these weapons by helping them cross the border to iran and syria.  a PACT was made between his country and saddam.  this was after all the accusations and complaints.  after all, when saddam died - iraq became a useful country to iran.  AS A PLACE FOR BUILDING AND TRANSFERRING ALREADY MADE WEAPONS.  who do you think we are now fighting in iraq.  IRANIANS.  SYRIANS.  where are these weapons targeted when they are allowed to be?  at ISRAEL. 

now - should he cross our border - let alone speak at a university.  UN -go home!

i suppose that getting upset about things - won't change what will be.  the bible foretells prophecy and the 'king of the north making peace with the king of the south' temporarily.  this is it.  they are 'friends.'  the UN and president of iran are FRIENDS! temporarily.  but, when all nations meet in armaggeddon  - it is everyone for themselves.  before that - the 'abomination of desolation' - the desolation of the temple mount!  that people who live in israel should flee to the surrounding hills.  because the next thing will be the ransacking of israel.  'it will be a time of great distress, such as there has never been before the beginning of the world, and will never be again.  if that time of troubles were not cut short, NO LIVING THING COULD SURVIVE....'  this is talking about extreme warfare.

the book of daniel, isaiah, and revelation say that it will lead to the return of Jesus Christ within a shorter time than 3 1/2 years - because 'for the sake of the saints' - Jesus Christ CAN cut short time.  also, it says 'pray that you are accounted worthy to escape all these things.'  if you don't pray - at least pray this!  weather disasters, climate change, and war have all been escalating.  if anyone cannot see this - they are blind.  who will save you in times of disaster?  only God!  the iranian president does not want the US and is convincing the UN ON OUR OWN SOIL to fight for him.

[thalbergmad]

i suppose that getting upset about things - won't change what will be.  the bible foretells prophecy and the 'king of the north making peace with the king of the south' temporarily.  this is it.  they are 'friends.'  the UN and president of iran are FRIENDS! temporarily.  but, when all nations meet in armaggeddon  - it is everyone for themselves.  before that - the 'abomination of desolation' - the desolation of the temple mount!  that people who live in israel should flee to the surrounding hills.  because the next thing will be the ransacking of israel.  'it will be a time of great distress, such as there has never been before the beginning of the world, and will never be again.  if that time of troubles were not cut short, NO LIVING THING COULD SURVIVE....'  this is talking about extreme warfare.

the book of daniel, isaiah, and revelation say that it will lead to the return of Jesus Christ within a shorter time than 3 1/2 years - because 'for the sake of the saints' - Jesus Christ CAN cut short time.  also, it says 'pray that you are accounted worthy to escape all these things.'  if you don't pray - at least pray this!  weather disasters, climate change, and war have all been escalating.  if anyone cannot see this - they are blind.  who will save you in times of disaster?  only God!  the iranian president does not want the US and is convincing the UN ON OUR OWN SOIL to fight for him.

Your pathetic, outdated, moronic silly little book of crap has no relevance here.

You say you are for free speach, but you want to stop others hearing the Iranian President. Has it ever occurred to your sad deluded little mind that some of the things he supposedly said might have been misquoted.

The terrorism will only stop when your trigger happy Texan and our week kneed puppets stop invading other Countries.

So please take your Book of Daniel and SHOVE IT.

Thal

[zheer]

The terrorism will only stop when your trigger happy Texan and our week kneed puppets stop invading other Countries.

  You know the Americans have one friend in the mid-east and thats the Kurds.

[thalbergmad]

I thought you were a Kurd old chap?

Why do they like the Americans?

Thal

[teresa_b]

Thank you, Walter, for posting this article by Naomi Wolfe.  It is chilling and rings true--these points ought to scare any American.  I have read much of this argument before, by other authors as well. 

It's hard to imagine George W. Bush having enough brainpower to understand what he is doing to our country;  how in the world can a man who cannot manage not to call the Australians "Austrians" and APEC "OPEC", among other moronic gaffes, even comprehend the overall strategy of morphing a country into a fascist state? 

The answer is, he can't!  And he is not as simple a thing as a puppet of Cheney and the gang (although that's part of it);  he himself is filled with a misguided and dangerous "God-given" moral imperative.  Unfortunately, he is blindly unaware of the ultimate consequences of his myopic actions.  And being at best mediocre in the brains department, he was able somehow to convince all the others who fall in that category that he is "one of them".  He is nothing like the typical American  "little guy," but has, with the brilliance of people like Rove, made them think they voted for someone who would look out for them. 

Little by little, maybe they will see the BIG LIE. 

If not, although W will be out in 2009, it would behoove all of us to keep in mind all the fascistic laws that will still be around.  We'd better hope and pray (and vote INTELLIGENTLY instead of by watching a swiftboat commercial) that we elect a series of truly intelligent and compassionate leaders in this country.

Teresa

[mephisto]

I thought you were a Kurd old chap?

Why do they like the Americans?

Thal

The world is more complicated than Zheer pretends that it is. He portrays a simplified world.

Some/many kurds like America because Saddam was terrible against the kurds and the americans took Saddam away.

[zheer]

I thought you were a Kurd old chap?

Why do they like the Americans?

Thal

  The Americans like the Kurd simply because we have never stabed them in the back, also the Kurds have never killed a single American either civilian or military. An American is very welcome in Kurdistan, the American flag and kurdish flag are found side by side since both U.S milltary and  kurdish millitary are on the same side, the Iraq flag is no-longer allowed to be seen in north Iraq ,we Kurds dont wont to see it.
And yes old chap am a Kurd.

[term]

the American flag and kurdish flag are found side by side since both U.S milltary and  kurdish millitary are on the same side

You will find that american approval is taken away as fast as it comes.
In foreign policy, such thing as "friends" are nonexistent. There are only profitable relationships and unprofitable ones. So this is of corse no american-only thing.
The mere presence of military is enough to establish a deep bond of friendship, and americans have many friends. But with 400 billions per year going into military, who hasn't?

[m]

I don't think debating that person has any value because this person obviously must be very ignorant. His argument is that because there are still Palestinians in Israel, none of them even fleed their land during the war.


The right of return is one of the biggest issues in the whole problem.
Palestinian refugees are all over the place. Remember all those wars against Lebanon?

 

First, as I stated before I (i.e. "that person" as you put it in the most tactless manner) spent in Israel 8 years, living in both Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Let me guess, you know the situation in that region from media (neither FOX or BBC BTW, are even close to what can be remotely called "accurate"), and I (aka "that person") miracleously missed 3 terrorist bombings.

I was in Tel Hai (the very Northern part of Israel) at the International Piano summer when rockets from Lebanon were sent. We would sit in cafe when sirens would go off and we will need to go undeground.
Once it happened during a concert, so the pianist had to stop, just to come back and resume in an hour.

I never forget that woman, who was running after a bus leaving the stop and driver stopped to pick her up. In a few seconds the bus was blasted right in front of my eyes.

Friend of mine used to live on Dizengoff on the fourth story. After one of such blasts whole his apartment was full of human blood, parts of human body, parts of human brain.

I will never forget seeng in the buses all those people with tatooed numbers on their hands, some of them even in their fifties. They must had been just little kids when they had to go through concentration camps.

Now you tell me about my ignorance, Sir.

Second, as for His argument is that because there are still Palestinians in Israel, none of them even fleed their land during the war. I never said that and NEVER gave that argument. Please spare me from your sick fantasies and don't put words in my mouth.

Third, speaking of all those wars against Lebanon? Could you remind us please who started each of those wars, including 2006?

Thanks you very much Mr. Enlightened.

[mephisto]

I think Prometheus was refeering to this post:

"Second, Palestine was esteblished on a territory which for at least 4 thousand years was a Jewish place and called "ISRAEL".
Third, the Palestinians were never forced out of that land and still live in Israel." (Extract)

I don't know how you could say it was a Jewish place when jews had been a minority in historical Palestine for a very long time. For instance in the period 1904-1914 jews made up 6 % of the population. So I dissagree about you calling it a Jewish place for the last 4000 years. And as you know, since 1882 more and more European Ashkenazy Jews were coming to historical Palestine, so it was even much less than 6% before 1904-1914 (I don't have the numbers in my head).

The Palestinians WERE forced out of that land. Of course not all of them, but around 750 000. After the Ethnic cleansing operation had taken place around 100 000 Palestinians were still living in Israel. No one is denying this. As a matter of fact some Zionist consider this to be the biggest mistake of Ben Gurion; that he didn't etnnicly cleanse ALL of the Palestinians. For instance Benny Morris:

"But I am not a statesman. I do not put myself in his (Ben Gurion's) place. But as an historian, I assert that a mistake was made here. Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake."

https://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

When the UN partition Plan was made jews made up around 33% of the population and the Palestinians made up the rest.

Two quotes:

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are
the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs,
because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down,
and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
--David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle

Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist.
Moshe Dayan



Btw, when you lived in Israel did you ever go to Canada Park?

[ahinton]

the president of iran openly admits that saddam used wmd's on thousands of iraqis and they had chemical warheads.  many of his own people sufferred the consequences of this.  but, then in idiocy - the nation of iran starts supporting the building of these weapons by helping them cross the border to iran and syria.  a PACT was made between his country and saddam.  this was after all the accusations and complaints.  after all, when saddam died - iraq became a useful country to iran.  AS A PLACE FOR BUILDING AND TRANSFERRING ALREADY MADE WEAPONS.  who do you think we are now fighting in iraq.  IRANIANS.  SYRIANS.  where are these weapons targeted when they are allowed to be?  at ISRAEL.

I think that you are being at times grossly over-simplistic and at times just plain wrong here. Why would you believe without question what happens to be reported in your country as an "open admission" by the Iranian president? As to the rest, there's far more to it than that.

the bible foretells prophecy and the 'king of the north making peace with the king of the south' temporarily.  this is it.  they are 'friends.'  the UN and president of iran are FRIENDS! temporarily.  but, when all nations meet in armaggeddon  - it is everyone for themselves.  before that - the 'abomination of desolation' - the desolation of the temple mount!  that people who live in israel should flee to the surrounding hills.  because the next thing will be the ransacking of israel.  'it will be a time of great distress, such as there has never been before the beginning of the world, and will never be again.  if that time of troubles were not cut short, NO LIVING THING COULD SURVIVE....'  this is talking about extreme warfare.

If I may correct you here, this is talking about extreme nonsense. Your repeatedly-quoted Bible tells its readers nothing whatsoever about the various conflicts in the Middle East today; given that, for example, Islam did not even exist in Biblical times, how could it possibly tell us anything about those aspects of recent and present Middle Eastern affairs that centre on or are connection with Islam?

the book of daniel, isaiah, and revelation say that it will lead to the return of Jesus Christwithin a shorter time than 3 1/2 years - because 'for the sake of the saints' - Jesus Christ CAN cut short time.  also, it says 'pray that you are accounted worthy to escape all these things.'  if you don't pray - at least pray this!  weather disasters, climate change, and war have all been escalating.  if anyone cannot see this - they are blind.  who will save you in times of disaster?  only God!  the iranian president does not want the US and is convincing the UN ON OUR OWN SOIL to fight for him.

And did those feet in ancient time walk upon anywhere a second time - in other words (and I apologise to the memory of Blake here), did Jesus return within 3½ years of the publication of any of those Biblical texts? I think that we all know the answer to that. As to the rest, this is just typical fear-mongering of the kind that is distressingly and tiresomely familiar to all those who've ever listened with at least half an ear to the outpourings of certain types of evangleistical Christian. The Iranian president is frequently quoted as having made all manner of sabre-rattling remarks; how many of these quotes are true reportage and, even of those that are (if any), how many are anything more significant that noisily bombastic platitudious fatuities, I have no idea.

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

Islam did not even exist in Biblical times, how could it possibly tell us anything about those aspects of recent and present Middle Eastern affairs that centre on or are connection with Islam?

 

  Good point, to understand the situation in the middle east today , one must learn about the past, in-particular the colaps of the Ottoman empire and the first world war.

[prometheus]

Third, speaking of all those wars against Lebanon? Could you remind us please who started each of those wars, including 2006?

They were all started by Israel. No one really disputes that either. I am sure you can 'counter' it with another gore story.

[m]

I don't know how you could say it was a Jewish place when jews had been a minority in historical Palestine for a very long time. For instance in the period 1904-1914 jews made up 6 % of the population. So I dissagree about you calling it a Jewish place for the last 4000 years. And as you know, since 1882 more and more European Ashkenazy Jews were coming to historical Palestine, so it was even much less than 6% before 1904-1914 (I don't have the numbers in my head).

What I meant that place was Jewish even 4000 years ago up until Jews were forced out of their land, so historically it is a Jewish place.

[mephisto]

What I meant that place was Jewish even 4000 years ago up until Jews were forced out of their land, so historically it is a Jewish place.

Did anyone live there before the Jews took over?

[m]

They were all started by Israel. No one really disputes that either. I am sure you can 'counter' it with another gore story.

You might consider checking your sources before talking nonsenses.
Quick googling and the very first hit clearly shows that ALL the Israeli operations were in response to Lebanise attacks, so there is no need for disputes here and don't be that sure about stories you hear:

https://www.historyguy.com/israel-lebanon_conflict.html

[pianistimo]

the british mandate was not accepted by palestine and trans-jordanians went immediately to the temple mount and set up camp.  why?  because they would not accept the idea of the country of israel at all.  that was after peace was attempted to be made. https://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_64_-_The_British_Mandate.asp

israel- as the word implies - is a term for the forefather of the jews and palestinians- abraham (who was also called israel). he is the father of 'many nations.'  but, judah and levi typically stayed - because in israel's day they were of the priestly line and kept the temple.  that is how i understand history.  btw, i also think there were about 10-12 sons of ishmael and they also became various nations/countries.

4000 years is a long time.  (i happen to think it started when moses took the children of israel out of egypt - thus being about 2000+ years).  why were they forced out?  the romans and various occupiers down thru time saw the temple as something they wanted to own.  that there was some hidden mystery to it.  they would set up shop occasionally - but through it all - we find that below the dirt - israelite artifacts such as the temple.  jewish pottery.  hebrew artifacts that prove who lived there.

now, if you were forced out of  acountry where all your history was - wouldn't you want to return.  why, since the arab nations have so much land there - cannot israel exist also.  after all - issac and ishmael were brothers!  God gave a certain portion to israel in the bible forever.  so this place is divinely given land.  he also gave a certain portion to ishmael and his sons forever.  and, the proof is the archeology that is done leads to a MUCH LONGER area that israel once owned.  israel is reasonable because it has never said palestine should not exist.  and yet, they do not think israel should exist. 

i have much respect for the current king of jordan, whom is a peacemaker much moreso than any other.  he seems to respect the place of both jew and arab and in the past has kicked out terrorist organizations.  but syria has not.  that is why lebanon always cries.  but, they put bombs/rockets behind their own apartment complexes and wonder when they are blown up.  maybe they don't know how to strategically place weapons away from civilians?  i think it is very very sad, in any case, that lebanon ANd israel should blow each other up.  but it is always because of provoking that israel FINALLY acts.  it is never a first choice.  what if in your country you had an enemy that was continually terrorizing you - but then asks for you to allow them to work in your country?  it's a double standard.

i have never lived in israel and only visited for a week, but i could see the continual watch over the sacred land.  the continual military presence that is forced from years of infighting.  it is a religious land and the struggle to own the temple is hard to understand by outsiders.  why do they fight over this particular place.  religion.  and politics.  many today are not as religious - but arabs, jews, and christians all visit jordan and israel to see places such as petra, the tombs of the saints, the church of the seplechure?, the temple, the wailing wall, king david hotel, the remains of the davidic palace (which has been located) - and many other archeological sites - jericho, etc.

these sites are all mentioned in the bible!  so is the bible false?  it is proven by real geological areas and gives the land it's first meaning - as each tribe of israel was assigned a portion of land after the 40 years in the desert (travel from egypt).  now - if there is so much history - why would anyone claim that ISRAEL is a relatively new country?  bizarre.  the romans owned jerusalem before the ottoman empire did.  that was because rome took it over and ransacked the temple in AD 70 (only about 40 years after the death of Christ. 

[pianistimo]

btw, the bible is a great historical record of the land of israel and what happened in it from the time of abraham to the spreading of israel into the diaspora.  many of the other tribes of israel (so-called 'lost') are now nations.  that is what God promised abraham.  that his seed would be like the stars of the sky (both jew and arab) and that they would become many nations.  12 sons/tribes of israel and 12 sons/tribes of ishmael.  that would be at least 24 countries.  if you look at names in the bible - it is interesting to follow them geneologically because their modern descendants trace back to their forefathers that are mentioned by name in the bible.  and, i bet if dna testing was done - both jew and arab would have the same forefather!  abraham.

jews were forced to return to palestine when WWIIand the  'white paper act of 1939'  was in place.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939  now wikipedia says that the jews were restricted.  the truth is - that is the ONLY PLACE THEY WERE ALLOWED TO GO.  i wish people would get facts correct in history!

try to attempt, on the internet now - to gain access to 'jewishvirtuallibrary.org.'  access is restricted because they are not sure about the integrity of the site - but they let yale and wikipedia describe the jewish history.  if that is not racism on the internet - i don't know what is.  they are attempting to distort facts and erase true history.  that is why you have to read historical books for yourself to determine what is true.  what happened before and after WWII was a forcing of the jew to return to israel!  now, people complain they are there?  just strange!

people, did you know Jesus Christ was jewish?  maybe that has escaped people's minds.  he was BORN in bethlehem.  he was raised in nazareth.  he died near/in jerusalem at golgotha.  and, jews haven't a right to israel?  the quran names abraham and many of the prophets including Jesus.  it's just that they don't recognize him as a savior.  but, was muhammad a savior?  is there a part of the gospel of Jesus that doesn't reach to the arabs?  they are all a part of the seed of abraham and are considered those who are 'near' - rather than 'far off.'  in any case - gentiles were converted in Jesus day - and that is why the tribes of israel were sent into the world.  that all would know the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[ahinton]

At the risk of sounding yawn-inducingly repetitive, I must ask what any of the content of your last two posts has to do with the extent or otherwise to which America is turning into a fascist state (or group of states); Biblical history - which is, of course, two millennia old - tells us very little about the present-day problems in the Middle East and, although I am no Biblical authority, I could have sworn that there are no references to America in any of its texts and that it therefore tells us nothing even about America 2,000 years ago, let alone today. George Walter Wotsisname may occasionally mention the Bible, but it sure doesn't mention him!

Are you also going to try to persuade us (although, if so, please do it in another thread that's devoted to it as a subject) that the Bible "prophecies" the possible future EC membership of certain Middle Eastern nations as well?

The Bible may have its interesting texts, of course and I am not seeking to deny or even undermine its true value, but to promote it incessantly as though it's some kind of Middle Eastern combination of the Encyclopædia Britannica and a quality daily newspaper that tells its readers all that they ever wanted to know about anything and everything is just plain fatuous, if not risible.

Please, Susan - yet again - can I respectfully request that you confine your Biblical babblings to threads on Biblical topics and other threads where they have a generally understandable direct referential input?

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

You might consider checking your sources before talking nonsenses.
Quick googling and the very first hit clearly shows that ALL the Israeli operations were in response to Lebanise attacks, so there is no need for disputes here and don't be that sure about stories you hear:

https://www.historyguy.com/israel-lebanon_conflict.html

I never disputed that Israel had a goal to invade, be it 'just or not'. But they invaded. They started the wars.

[m]

Did anyone live there before the Jews took over?

 
Good point... if not one "but", which is according to Torah that was a homeland promised to Jews and that was the land where the holiest Jewish places are located.

On the other hand, sure, one can argue thats the land which for centuries was occupated by different nation.

Of course, there would be no truth in either point of view.

Sure, "new historians" would be right, but on the other hand "old ones" will be  right as well.
Even  more--sure, both of them will be wrong and the truth will always be somewhere in the middle.

The only truth is that in 1948 that land given back to Jews and both sides (i.e. Jews and Arabs) should find a common ground, when the killing should stop.

There is a lot of confusion in the world as whom to blame for the situation. Some blame Israelis, some blame Arabs. The truth is--both are to blame and both are responsible for the current situation and religious matters magnify the situation to gigantic proportions.

The truth is that there is no truth there and NOBODY has a wisdom to look at the core of situation, where the illiteracy in Arabic communities is just shocking. As a result it is so easy to manipulate this population--it is so easy to promise a better life after death that human life has value next to nothing.

Naturally, this situation is very comfortable for many Arabic leaders, as it is so easy to program such a population to the needs--the poorer and more illeterate, the better.

On the other hand, Israelis are not much better. While generally much more educated (well, atleast compare to surrounding Arabic countries or inside Arabic population), any situtation gets them on a "high horse".
While it is true Israelis don't start the wars, this position is very comfortable for them as ANY provoked situation let's them justify invasions, esp. considering that their own territory is REAL SMALL. (Just imagine driving from Galileya (the very Northern part) to Eilat just in about 3.5 hours, and the widest part is about 50 miles, IIRC.)

Getting back to Lebanon. Hezbollah in fact, made a very smart move, investing money into some social care, etc. to attract sympathies of population.
Don't be fooled, however.  Hezbollah at the same time has built its bases right behind civilian residences (how about that?).
The hezbollah next move is to send some rockets and missiles to Israel territory. No doubt Israel is right back to answer and inevitably hits civilians.

Now, you tell me who is at fault!!!

My pick on that is--both are barbarians.

In fact, lately, esp. after Arafat's death the situation started somehow calming down.
And sure, right in the middle came Mr. Bush on a white horse...  

Just think of it, how many billions were spent on this senseless war.
Can you imagine how many schools could be built on that money, how many people could live happier life, without thinking about where to get a piece of bread tomorrow morning, how many people could be able to read Koran themselves and understand what is written there, instead of listening and being programmed as for what to do.

Sure, it would still take GENERATIONS of systematic and methodic political, educational, and social work in order to reach stability in that region, but that would be at least the first step of good will.  

Not that I am a big fan of Lenin. I am still not sure whether he was good or evil . Nevertherless, he was incredibly smart person. These were his words: "It is impossible to live in society and be free of society".

The same goes to America--it is impossible to be a country of the first world and be free of responsibility for the world.

So far America is on the way to fashism. Rather sad...

[m]

marik... you'll be back in a matter of three weeks.  if not - your christian wife will do you in.   

Indeed, you must be out of your mind.
And don't you dare mentioning my wife with your dirty mouth.

Is it more clear now?

[mephisto]

The truth is that there is no truth there and NOBODY has a wisdom to look at the core of situation...

I disagree. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes about the conflict. Of course like any other conflict there are certain aspects of it that are unique to this conflict, but in reality it is pretty straight forward. There is no reason to mystify it.

The problem in my oppinion is the number of lies told about it. Books that get great reviews can be nothing but lies. Such as Joan Peters "From Time Immemorial" wich has been proven to be one big lie.
But today almost everybody agrees about everything, both Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israelis are even quoting from the same authores ( Benny Morris). Yet people try to mystify the conflict.

[mephisto]

is there a part of the gospel of Jesus that doesn't reach to the arabs? 

There are arab christians you extremely stupid anti-semite.

[prometheus]

Mephisto, that is also Finkelstein's point. And I agree with him. The conflict is not controversial at all. It's a very simple conflict and our moral principles and international guidelines, when applied universally, are quite clear.


Problem is that we just don't want to apply it because universality in this case gives us the wrong results. All Palestine refugees returning and democracy demographically means the end of a Jewish state. But refugees always have the right to return and democracy is what we all want.

[mephisto]

i have much respect for the current king of jordan, whom is a peacemaker much moreso than any other. 

Why would you have any respect for the Jordanian King and his totalitarian regime? He's a dictator, and no one is alowed to speak against him.

[pianistimo]

who will protect israel.  the USA. 

comparatively speaking - king abdullah and his father did more to the peace process than the palestinians arafat.  everyone hated arafat because you could never trust what he said.  at least these several kings of trans-jordan attempted to the best of their ability to create peace and stability according to the laws they made.  perhaps princess grace was a part of this process when king hussein was favorable to using money for humanitarian purposes instead of war.  he allowed many new things to be built in his country FOR his people.  one was a center for children who were handicapped.  not many leaders have forsight and hindsight.  his son may have been in the military - but that is the way most leaders get to where they are.  they have to know about war - but make peace. 

stalin, on the other hand - personally allowed the killing of MILLIONS.  he was a dictator.  worse than saddam hussein because he killed more.  i wish you would consider what you say instead of attacking others.  you are not for peace AND freedom.  only peace at a cost.  the cost of fitting in with a million other people.  if you don't - you're shot.  that's what the UN stands for.  enjoy it.  it will happen.  but at what price.  the price of FREEDOM.  do you think you will be able to defend personal property or businesses?  ha.  do you think you will have the right to speak as you feel about the government? ha.  it will be a dictatorship.  they always start with peaceful motives.  but, the evil in their hearts determines what happens.

STALIN WAS EVIL.  marik, you never answered me WHAT IS EVIL?  i believe it is the desire to control millions.  to be world leader and not care what anyone else wants.  pres. bush doesn't want to control the world.  he never would anyways.  but, if the UN continues on it's mission - it will  control the social policies of as much of the world as it can.  do you really want this?

i am for peace and kindness and feel terrible about atrocities on both sides of the iraqi war and for the terrorism which has plagued our country recently (as we dont' know who is knocking off people on buses and random places one by one).  also, we don't know what is planned next.  i'm sure it's quite lovely.  no peace for the wicked.  btw, i am currently finding a site for you to read all about the loving acts of Stalin.

[pianistimo]

about Stalin:

https://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.html

only 20 MILLION dead.  14.5 million of those needlessly starving to death. 1 million executed for political offences.  9.5 million deported to work camps. 

THIS IS EVIL.

american history now taught in colleges and uni's only tells about the indian reservations and what ills white people brought to america.  but, they do not say how america was the breadbasket of the world for many years, how many people were allowed to immigrate here freely (unbarred by religion, poverty, nationality) especially during times of WAR.  when people were scared and homeless. 

i'm irish and i greatly admire and respect the many ships that travelled to ellis island so that people could emigrate and be free.  if this country wasn't great - we would not have had so many people travelling here to escape dictatorships that were killing people right and left.  that people of the holocaust would find an ally.  that the history of many nations would be correctly and truthfully taught.  and, that our own history would be blessed only when we had leaders that were truthful and honest. 

what president of any country could beat abraham lincoln.  he was a profound statesman because despite what others tried to do to talk him out of giving a speech on civil rights - he underscored the divine purpose of america.  people laugh now and talk like he was forced into it - but this is not true history.  president lincoln was SHOT for what he believed.  good is always killed.  not tolerated.  whether it be christian or leadership that allows christians to thrive.  Stalin never tolerated religion in any form.  it was totalitarianism - which means 'what i say goes.'  he would never have issued any 'emancipation proclaimation.'

now, this isn't to say that america is perfect right now.  that is because we lost the 'under God' part.  what happens when we do that is to become self-righteous for no reason.  that we have blessings that we don't deserve because we consider ourselves better or above others.  this cannot be with God- because ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.  that means - leaders are supposed to serve their people.  and, the stronger the weaker.  just because democracy has seemingly failed doesn't mean we need socialism.  we need God.  america has become great because of divine blessings.  our creativity and resources have seemed unbounded.  but, the weak points are showing up now - and make us realize where all our blessings REALLY came from.  also, where all our freedoms REALLY came from.  God.

[ahinton]

about Stalin:

https://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.html

only 20 MILLION dead.  14.5 million of those needlessly starving to death. 1 million executed for political offences.  9.5 million deported to work camps. 

THIS IS EVIL.

Whether you use the word evil or some other word, I think it highly unlikely that anyone here would for a moment condone the activities of Stalin, Hitler and Mao who between them presided over the deaths of almost 100 million people, but where does this get us here? No one is suggesting that GWB is presiding over deaths on anything like the same scale, but there is a rising tide of opinion even in America itself that doubts - even if it doesn't necessarily in all cases refute - GWB's policies in the Middle East and anywhere else where he chooses to rattle his sabre over his "war on terrr". The entire concept of a "war" on terrorism is itself hopelessly flawed; you simply cannot fight terrorism per se, as it is a concept, so you can only deal with actual terrorists themselves and in this it seems that America has made precious little quantifiable progress to date. We surely all agree here that the events of 9/11 were inhuman and unacceptable, but what can America do about it? It happened, so the clock cannot be turned back; all that can be done is to hunt down and prosecute the culprits, which has not happened.

american history now taught in colleges and uni's only tells about the indian reservations and what ills white people brought to america.  but, they do not say how america was the breadbasket of the world for many years, how many people were allowed to immigrate here freely (unbarred by religion, poverty, nationality) especially during times of WAR.  when people were scared and homeless. 

i'm irish and i greatly admire and respect the many ships that travelled to ellis island so that people could emigrate and be free.  if this country wasn't great - we would not have had so many people travelling here to escape dictatorships that were killing people right and left.  that people of the holocaust would find an ally.  that the history of many nations would be correctly and truthfully taught.  and, that our own history would be blessed only when we had leaders that were truthful and honest.

Irish you may be (although I thought that you were only partly so) but you are nevertheless an America citizen. If you really believe that America has the upper hand over other nations in that it teaches all its own history truthfully and runs itself honestly, you are deluding yourself; that is not an anti-American statement and I am not anti-American - I merely observe that politicians are, for the most part, not to be trusted wherever they operate and, let it be remembered, politicans have a substantial say in how history is taught.

what president of any country could beat abraham lincoln.  he was a profound statesman because despite what others tried to do to talk him out of giving a speech on civil rights - he underscored the divine purpose of america.  people laugh now and talk like he was forced into it - but this is not true history.  president lincoln was SHOT for what he believed.  good is always killed.  not tolerated.  whether it be christian or leadership that allows christians to thrive.  Stalin never tolerated religion in any form.  it was totalitarianism - which means 'what i say goes.'  he would never have issued any 'emancipation proclaimation.'

But you seem almost as though yout are promoting another kind of totalitarianism - a Christian fundamentalist state - unless I misunderstand you.

now, this isn't to say that america is perfect right now.  that is because we lost the 'under God' part.  what happens when we do that is to become self-righteous for no reason.  that we have blessings that we don't deserve because we consider ourselves better or above others.  this cannot be with God- because ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.  that means - leaders are supposed to serve their people.  and, the stronger the weaker.  just because democracy has seemingly failed doesn't mean we need socialism.  we need God.  america has become great because of divine blessings.  our creativity and resources have seemed unbounded.  but, the weak points are showing up now - and make us realize where all our blessings REALLY came from.  also, where all our freedoms REALLY came from.  God.

When will you be running for President, Susan?

In a democracy, "leaders" are put into their positions of leadership by the nation's electorate, not by God. Democracy and socialism are not in any case necessarily mutually incompatible. The remainder of the remarks in the above paragraph suggest strongly that you have no especial desire to share your American citizenship with those who disagree with you about blessings snd their origin simply because they happen not to believe in your God; how democratic is that? OK, you might be prepared to tolerate it while at the same time criticizing it at every opportunity, but the position you put forward almost suggests that you'd rather live in an America free of non-Christians. If that is the case, is that not also a totalitarianist attitude? Even GWB hasn't gone as far as to cancel the American citizenship of all non-Christians.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

i'm irish

That explains a lot

[ada]

things are falling apart all over the globe.  i believe that President Bush may be the last US President to take a stand against facism in it's truest sense.  the United Nations.  bill 1146 ? (and S 3633 last year) is something to look into.  do you want to be told to give up a large portion of your military to police the world?  that is facism.  to control more and more.  the UN would cause our country to be taxed as well.  that was last year's bill.  President Bush merely wants to look after the USA.  if we were facist we'd try to take over south america and restructure it.  unfortunately, that is what they want to do to us.  facism in it's truest sense is simply a group of terrorists with a lot of weapons, drugs, and bad plans for free people and their assets. 

It's this sort of blinkered, infantile, ignorant tosh that has long since driven me away from PS.

Thank god for cmg.

[ahinton]

It's this sort of blinkered, infantile, ignorant tosh that has long since driven me away from PS.

Thank god for cmg.

Oi! Now don't YOU start citing God! Please! Anyway, it's nice to welcome you back here again, even if - as seems to be your way these days, for whatever reasons - you have somehow become a case of what Elgar quoted at the head of the score of his magnificent Second Symphony - "Rarely, rarely comest thou / Spirit of delight"...

Please do not be "driven away" from this place - there's plenty more to it...

Best,

Alistair

[ada]

Oi! Now don't YOU start citing God! Please! Anyway, it's nice to welcome you back here again, even if - as seems to be your way these days, for whatever reasons - you have somehow become a case of what Elgar quoted at the head of the score of his magnificent Second Symphony - "Rarely, rarely comest thou / Spirit of delight"...

Please do not be "driven away" from this place - there's plenty more to it...

Best,

Alistair

ah it's just that my irritation over unending creationist babble and George W Bush cheerleading overrides for fondness for just about everyone else here, you of course included Alistair 

[ahinton]

ah it's just that my irritation over unending creationist babble and George W Bush cheerleading overrides for fondness for just about everyone else here, you of course included Alistair 

So all that crapulous nonsense overrides your fondness for everyone here? Me included? Well, I did me best, ada! But maybe that's not what you meant!

As one American that I know (yes, them! - I have nothing against Americans pe se) once said to me: "In God we trust - or so it goes; well, we gotta claim to trust someone, especially if we reckon to have invented Him in the first place!"...

Stray not from us, ada...

Best,

Alistair

[ada]

So all that crapulous nonsense overrides your fondness for everyone here? Me included? Well, I did me best, ada! But maybe that's not what you meant!

As one American that I know (yes, them! - I have nothing against Americans pe se) once said to me: "In God we trust - or so it goes; well, we gotta claim to trust someone, especially if we reckon to have invented Him in the first place!"...

Stray not from us, ada...

Best,

Alistair

haha that's me babbling. you know what i mean

[ultraviolet]

Thanks, ultraviolet.  Your cosmopolitan comment is much appreciated.  Even though your "post count" indicates that you've not been around as long as some of us and, therefore, your patience (and compassion -- you do know what that means, don't you?) has not been challenged by pianistimo's more inflammatory utterances, I'll overlook your francophobe allusions to our arrogance, stench and alcoholism.

I'm so happy, however, that you appreciate our striving for style.

p.s.  I'm a member of AA.  Perhaps you are projecting?


 

I don't know what projecting means, but if it means hurting someone's feelings, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to. 

And why does everyone complain about Pianistimo?  I have never read one of her posts, to be honest.  They're long and they make no sense, so I skip them and reply as though they didn't exist.  Why don't other people do this instead of complaining? 

Sorry--did I project again?  If so, sorry pianistimo!  I'm sure you're very nice.

[pianistimo]

actually, i'd rather a person be completely honest and never read anything i said - than misquote me.  dante alligeri's way of getting back at people was to write a book and put them all in hell.  sometimes think marik projects something or other at christians that he means to project at God.  first he says that israel has been around 4000 years in the holy land (actually the cananites, philistines, and all the 'akites' lived there first - making israel's occupation 2000+ years) - and then says that bible never happened or intimates that christians who believe it cannot think for themselves.  i jsut think it is strange that someone who has lived in israel would just say 'ho hum' - just another day in paradise.

does anyone wonder what ahminijad brought himself to say?  hello - friends, neighbors, collegues - forget your presidential candidates.  i am now running for the presidency, too.  btw, if you want to see a good site - visit https://www.theirownwords.com/  what jihadists say among themselves when nobody is listening.

perhaps the source of all this conflict is the difficulty that smaller nations have with larger and richer nations.  it is probably our turn to 'feel the heat' so to speak.  and, it hasn't been our doing to be blessed as a nation so long.  nobody deserves blessings, really.  God was gracious.   i suppose that when it is all said and done - we will be wiser for valuing the blood of our countrymen for freedom over the wealth of compromise.  that is when character is revealed.  i think both sides can show compassion and character despite mass upheaval.  we don't have issues with each other as peoples.  the governments of the world are coming to an end.  Jesus Christ will win over all.  peace to those who are near and those who are far off.

[m]

Firstly, Susan, you're in the wrong thread here. Marik's remark was made on the America and fascism thread. Whilst I do not condone the tone of what he wrote, I should remind you that it was in response to your having written

"i suppose like thalbergmad (whom you could learn from) you'll be back in a matter of three weeks.  if not - your christian wife will do you in."

Now if that isn't both patronising to Marik and rude to his wife at the same time, I'm not sure what is. I think that YOU should consider what you should say to others before posting intemperate sentiments such as these; adter all, it's not very Christian of you, is it? I'm glad that you didn't write to ME in that way...

Best,

Alistair

Alistair,

Thank you for taking time and explaining that part.
For a long time I wanted to tell you I admire your patience.
Unfortunately, unlike you, I have no patience to put up with disrespect, rudeness, infantilism, and ignorance.

marik, how dare you say i have a dirty mouth.  you are saying lenin is your idol.  i don't think you belong in america - but be that as it may - at least you could have the courtesy to recognize that of all people on this forum i have not used profanity.  so don't tell me i have  a dirty mouth.  and don't accuse me when you don't know me.  after all, you might be kicking the very mouth that is speaking truth, too.  you seem to think you are the only one with truth.  you are not.  do you think following the precepts of lenin and a socialist party will give us more of a reason to work?  do you realize how dull people became under lenin because of lack of incentives for people who excelled.  do you want to be considered another yellow pencil?

Pianistimo,

Out of all diarrhoea of your ideas, random thoughts, and incoherent conclusions to imagine that Lenin is my idol would be the most pathetic thing.

That you know, I don't have idols, just out of principle... besides, Bible teaches so, if I am not mistaken.
Even if hypotetically pretend that I had one, trust me, Lenin would be there on the last place.

I am not even curious where in the world did you get the idea that I think that socialist party will give us reason to work, when I actually escaped from Russia not to deal with that party and regime, and antisemitism it created.

In one thing you are right though, that I don't belong to America---that America which elected that clown as a president; that clueless America; that America full of religious rabbish; America of religious marionetts who does things because they are told so; that America which cannot comprehend even two ideas put together--indeed I don't belong there, that is your America.

Fortunately, there is another America and whether I belong there or not is a topic for completely diferent discussion.

I have no doubt Pianistimo that you mean well. Unfortunately, as they say, path to hell is made out of good intentions.

Just turn around and find some strength to look at yourself with fresh sight and open heart and don't lie to yourself. You might not like what you will see.

For a record, I am not arguing, just trying to put things straight.

Best, M